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View Full Version : The New Deathwing- beyond LRs, Terms, and Dreds



tangerinealtoid
07-12-2007, 17:52
There appears to be the general consensus that "Deathwing", the first company of Dark Angles and their successor chapters, is entirely composed of just Land Raiders, Terminators, and Dreds. Therefore, the general consensus says, if you play "Deathwing", but you include such things as vindicators, you're playing it wrong. I think that this is a misconception.

Firstly, to the extent that this belief is based on the last version of the Dark Angels Codex that allowed Deathwing only comprised of Land Raiders, Terminators, and Dreds: hey, we've got a new codex, and you can include all Dark Angels units in support of a Deathwing-led force. New rules=New Deathwing

Secondly, to the extent that this belief that this is based on the background first company composition: well, I don't think it's necessarily correct to assume that the first company would never have assault vehicles like vindicators or whirlwinds assigned in the company composition. Also, given that we are attempting to accurately represent what an assaulting Deathwing force would look like, wouldn't a Deathwing force pretty much always have some sort of supporting elements unless its a strange scenario like the seminal "Deathwing squad goes home for a visit and finds a genestealer cult has taken over?" Any place that a Land raider could be dropped off by a Thunderhawk, vindicators or whirlwinds could be dropped off, and in greater numbers. So, why wouldn't a permanently-assigned linebreaker squadron be painted white to honor and fit in with the Deathwing Company?

And, what makes more sense: an obscenely expensive elite unit randomly teleporting blindly into the middle of a battlefield, or being lead with surgical precision by scout elements specially equipped with equipment to place them exactly where they need to be?

Based on the last codex, "Deathwing" is an evolving concept that goes beyond termies, Land Raiders, and Dreds, and is clearly intended to be thought of as the elite elements of the Dark Angels that work in concert with the rest of the army, as opposed to a "glass hammer" army- expensive and hard-hitting, but with weaknesses easy to exploit with a mixed-army composition force.

I think that one of the most telling factors in favor of my argument is that the Deathwing army composition of the last codex really isn't a very competitive force, and it isn't a competitive force because elite units are too expensive to be wasted soaking up casualties like mainline units.

So, since its not a competitive force, it doesn't match the current rule-set, lets ditch the old paradigm of Land Raider-Termie-Dred deathwing.

LictorIntheGrass
07-12-2007, 17:58
I agree.

The problem is that Deathwing is not what I call an army. I've always looked at it as the Heavy Artillery "secton" of Dark Angel's Chapter. This being the group that "hammer" to the Dark Angel's anvil--to completely annihilate their objectives.

Culven
07-12-2007, 18:01
My understanding is that Deathwing is the First Company of the Dark Angels. This would consist of all veterans allowed into some of the mysteries of the Chapter. While seeing a force comprised of only Deathwing would indeed be a rare sight, I think that there should still be some distinction between Deathwing units and a largely Deathwing force.

To this end, I would say that while Vindicators and Predators may be assigned to support the force, they would actually be Dark Angels units assigned to the force from the Chapter armoury. Hence they would be dark green. Only elements permanently assigned to the First Company (their Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts, and all Terminators), would be painted bone white.

==Me==
07-12-2007, 18:01
Pure Deathwing will always be Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders. Anything else it Dark Angels with Deathwing elements or Deathwing with chapter support.

The new codex has allowed the mixing of DW, RW, and the normal companies on a much greater scale. It opens up a lot more possibilites and makes the DA really 3 armies in one (similar to Chaos in Fantasy).

tangerinealtoid
07-12-2007, 18:08
One of my points is, why does it seem unlikely that the first company would not have extremely useful vehicles like vindicators permanently assigned,a nd if permanently assigned, then painted white? The concept that first company is only Land raiders, termies, and dreds, is from the last edition of the codex, and I've seen nothing published in the last few years that says that first company gets no other heavy support in their force composition. Each company is supposed to be able to fight on its own, so why wouldn't the first company get vindicators and whirlwinds permanently assigned?

tangerinealtoid
07-12-2007, 18:09
Pure Deathwing will always be Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders. Anything else it Dark Angels with Deathwing elements or Deathwing with chapter support.

The new codex has allowed the mixing of DW, RW, and the normal companies on a much greater scale. It opens up a lot more possibilites and makes the DA really 3 armies in one (similar to Chaos in Fantasy).

Can you cite to any GW recent publications to support your argument re: "pure deathwing?"

dean
07-12-2007, 18:10
One of my points is, why does it seem unlikely that the first company would not have extremely useful vehicles like vindicators permanently assigned,a nd if permanently assigned, then painted white? The concept that first company is only Land raiders, termies, and dreds, is from the last edition of the codex, and I've seen nothing published in the last few years that says that first company gets no other heavy support in their force composition. Each company is supposed to be able to fight on its own, so why wouldn't the first company get vindicators and whirlwinds permanently assigned?

The same reason the US Airborne doesn't get M1A1 Abrams. Different missions.


Can you cite to any GW recent publications to support your argument re: "pure deathwing?"

The current DA codex TO&E which lays out what is in each company. (page 19?.... maybe?...)

MuttMan
07-12-2007, 18:43
A chapter is a chapter, limiting a battle to just 1/10th of the chapter's numbers isnt what I would call tacticly sound for a batch of men that are supposed to be the top warriors and top thinkings on the battlefield.

Thats why they can use -anything- at their disposal now. Its more fluffy that they follow their company masters when they're in the field of battle. I say its perfectly fine from a fluff standpoint. From a rules cookiecutter fanatic, deathwing has been raped. I thankfully prefer a chapter to work together rather in piecemeal.

vipernyc
07-12-2007, 19:12
Well, GW sells the ENTIRE deathwing now as an army deal, so its safe to assume that if it isn't in that deal, it isn't in the deathwing.

Culven
07-12-2007, 19:39
One of my points is, why does it seem unlikely that the first company would not have extremely useful vehicles like vindicators permanently assigned,a nd if permanently assigned, then painted white?
Because it is rather well established that all non-Transport Tanks in a Space Marine Chapter fall under the control of the Master of the Forge. They are assigned on an as-needed basis to the different forces being Deployed based upon mission requirements. Also, the Deathwing members are all veterans with Terminator Armour or who have been interred in a Dreadnought. They don't drive the tanks, and would not allow non-Deathwing Dark Angels to have the honour of wearing white armour. That would be like allowing anyone to wear a Medal of Honour when they did not earn it themselves.


Well, GW sells the ENTIRE deathwing now as an army deal, so its safe to assume that if it isn't in that deal, it isn't in the deathwing.
That deal only has 5 Land Raiders. I would expect the Deathwing to have more. Also, it doesn't include any Dreadnoughts.

boogaloo
07-12-2007, 19:45
I agree that if it ain't termies dreds and raiders it aint deathwing, certainly dark angels... and they are dark angels... but not first company. like if they aint bikes, attack bikes or speeders they ain't raven wing

tangerinealtoid
07-12-2007, 19:47
Well, GW sells the ENTIRE deathwing now as an army deal, so its safe to assume that if it isn't in that deal, it isn't in the deathwing.

Really? By that logic: (1) an imperial guard company has no snipers, priests, sentinels, because none of those minis are included in the imperial guard company box set; (2) A space marine company can only get infantry and rhinos, and command squads, since those are the only models included in that deal.

Obviously, the box set deals are not intended to set what is the complete composition of a company; its just the bulk of a company, without all of the extras specialty units.

And, the deal just says "The Deathwing;" not "The ENTIRE Deathwing."

And, if this is the entire Deathwing, then that would also mean that there is only one chaplain and one librarian in the entire deathwing company, since that is all that comes with the deal.


Because it is rather well established that all non-Transport Tanks in a Space Marine Chapter fall under the control of the Master of the Forge. They are assigned on an as-needed basis to the different forces being Deployed based upon mission requirements. Also, the Deathwing members are all veterans with Terminator Armour or who have been interred in a Dreadnought. They don't drive the tanks, and would not allow non-Deathwing Dark Angels to have the honour of wearing white armour. That would be like allowing anyone to wear a Medal of Honour when they did not earn it themselves.


That deal only has 5 Land Raiders. I would expect the Deathwing to have more. Also, it doesn't include any Dreadnoughts.

You raise an interesting point about the Master of the Forge. But, this statement also presumes that there are no veteran tank crew in the Dark Angels.

"Brother Urial, you're a real bad-ass in your vindicator, and your a veteran of countless tank engagements; but your a dark angel, so no tank for you. Get brother Urial a suit of terminator armor, and tell Jimmy the Scout to report for tank assignment."

Culven
07-12-2007, 19:55
(2) A space marine company can only get infantry and rhinos, and command squads, since those are the only models included in that deal.
The Space Marine company does include a full Battle Company. It has a Command Squad, six Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads, and two Devastator Squads. There are no tanks because they do not belong to the Company. They belong to the Chapter and would be assigned to Companies as needed.


And, if this is the entire Deathwing, then that would also mean that there is only one chaplain and one librarian in the entire deathwing company, since that is all that comes with the deal.
There would only be one Chaplain and one Librarian, at least in the Deathwing Command Squad. The Chaplains and Librarians in the Command Squads of the other Companies would also be Deathwing, but they are not part of the First Company. Then there would be the Chaplain and Librarian in the Chapter Command, as well as some novice Chaplains and Librarians attached to various units.

EDIT:


You raise an interesting point about the Master of the Forge. But, this statement also presumes that there are no veteran tank crew in the Dark Angels.
Not necessarily. Deathwing aren't just Veterans. They are Veterans who have been allowed into an inner circle where they are allowed to know more about the Unforgiven. Remember that the primary mission of the Deathwing is capture Fallen Angels and return them to The Rock for redemption.

It is entirely possible to have Dark Angels who excell in their roles, becoming "Veterans" without them being allowed into the Deathwing or its secrets.

dean
07-12-2007, 19:58
And, if this is the entire Deathwing, then that would also mean that there is only one chaplain and one librarian in the entire deathwing company, since that is all that comes with the deal.

Erm... There is only one chappy in the DW Company but all chappys and Libbys are members of the Inner circle and are (have been in the past) members of the Deathwing.

What nobody is noticing is that there are 103 suits of TDA in this deal... therefore blowing holes in the "There are only 100 suits in any chapter." theory.

Sorry for derailment. Back to our regularly scheduled topic...

Melchor
07-12-2007, 20:02
The rules might have changed with the new codex.
The background however hasn't. Just take a look at page 15 of your DA codex. It says right there that the Deathwing consists of:

The Inner Circle
Belial
Apothecary and Standard Bearer
20 Terminator Squads
Dreadnoughts
Land Raiders and Land Raider Crusaders
Any list consisting of the models listed above is a 'Pure' Deathwing force. Any list that includes other elements (Vindicators, predators, scouts, small boys named Kevin etc.) is not a pure Deathwing force. It's a Deathwing-heavy DA force. But it's most certainly not a pure DW army.

Having said that however, I agree that pure DW as it's currently represented in the codex is less effective than it was. That may or may not lead you to include 'unpure' elements in your DW force.
But if you want to claim you play a Deathwing force, you'd have to stick to the units listed above.

Culven
07-12-2007, 20:02
What nobody is noticing is that there are 103 suits of TDA in this deal... therefore blowing holes in the "There are only 100 suits in any chapter." theory.
They tend to not include the Command Staff in the Company count. Just look at a Space Marine Battle Company. Ten squads of ten men equals 100 Space Marines, oh, and don't forget the Company Command Squad. ;)

Xyxox
07-12-2007, 20:02
Erm... There is only one chappy in the DW Company but all chappys and Libbys are members of the Inner circle and are (have been in the past) members of the Deathwing.

What nobody is noticing is that there are 103 suits of TDA in this deal... therefore blowing holes in the "There are only 100 suits in any chapter." theory.

Sorry for derailment. Back to our regularly scheduled topic...

1) There is no chaplain assigned to the Deathwing per page 15 of the Dark Angels Codex
2) Not all Chaplains are members of the inner cirle, though all Librarians are.
3) Only Interrogator Chaplains may are members of the inner circle.

Other than that, I have to agree, there must be at a minimum 103 TDA suits in the DA. Probably more because there are a number of Librarians and Interrogator Chaplains within the inner circle and probably more than one of each group would have access to the Terminator Armor.


Well, GW sells the ENTIRE deathwing now as an army deal, so its safe to assume that if it isn't in that deal, it isn't in the deathwing.

Where have you seen that deal and how danged expensive is it?

100 Terminators is one heckuva lot of cash at ten bucks per model buyinig them the old fashioned way in $50 five terminator packs. If I can get 103 for say, $700, I may be interested. If it includes Land Raiders, even more interested.

Culven
07-12-2007, 20:08
Where have you seen that deal and how danged expensive is it?
100 Terminators is one heckuva lot of cash at ten bucks per model buyinig them the old fashioned way in $50 five terminator packs. If I can get 103 for say, $700, I may be interested. If it includes Land Raiders, even more interested.
Here it is. (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=306043&orignav=306043&ParentID=1254557&GameNav=9)

Xyxox
07-12-2007, 20:14
Here it is. (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=306043&orignav=306043&ParentID=1254557&GameNav=9)

Man.

I'm seriously tempted! If I wasn't already 25% of the way there, I'd be scrounging for cash!

studderigdave
07-12-2007, 20:20
my deffwing will always be just that, the DEFFWING. straight up mega armor, looted land raidas and a dead ard killy dred.

Vaulkhar
07-12-2007, 21:18
Besides, if you really, really, really want to field lots of different tanks then the IA2 rules allow for a lot of variation. The basic LR and the Crusader cover the AT and AP roles quite nicely, the Helios functions as AT and Artillery and if you just want loads and loads of heavy bolters, then think about a Prometheus.

shabbadoo
07-12-2007, 21:38
Deathwing does only include Terminators, Land Raiders, and Dreadnoughts. Ravenwing includes only Bikes, Attack Bikes, and Land Speeders. The other companies include only Infantry, Dreadnoughts, and Rhinos. None of the companies have Vindicators, Predators, or Whirlwinds as part of their regular formations. These are all auxiliary units from the Armory, as they have been for a long, long time. You have to go back to ancient texts for such variant formations as the Iron Wing.

Even the Deathwing would use auxiliary units, as every single battle they fight is not always against agents or members of The Fallen, which is really the only reason why the Deathwing might curtail the use of some auxiliary units. The Deathwing might employ auxiliary units initially, but have them hold back from any final action that might result in them discovering the purpose of the battle was fighting agents or members of The Fallen. Regardless, these auxiliary units are not Deathwing, and wouldn't be painted in colors that denoted them as such.