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Orbital
07-12-2007, 19:52
Wait, wait, wait... before you draw-and-quarter me for starting another Falcon thread, let me explain: This one is different. I swear! Let me just recap: Thread after thread has been started on the subject of Falcons, Holofields, Spirit Stones, Skimmers-Moving-Fast, Harlequins and/or Fire Dragons inside of Falcons, and (most importantly) how to deal with them. If you've been following Warseer threads, you'll notice that there's a LOT of talk on the subject -- a lot of it very circular. A lot of Warseer members are

This is what I'm calling the "Last Word" thread. Naturally, I don't think I have the power to wave my magic wand and get everyone to stop talking about Falcon, but I'd like to suggest this:

Post your thoughts on the idea of an Eldar list that includes three Falcons, all with Holofield and Spirit Stone upgrades, each carrying either a unit of 6 Harlequins with Harlequin Kisses or a unit of Fire Dragons. Difficulty: Post once only in the thread (go back and edit later if you wish), and no replying to other posts at all. If you wanna have a back-and-forth, there are tons of threads and discussions currently in progress. This is for trying something different... just to see what we come up with.

If it works out, we'll end up with a very comprehensive thread of views, tactica, rants, statistics, and facts about the 3x(Upgraded Falcon+Harlequins or Fire Dragons) list... without the back and forth, without the circular arguments, without the debates, without the venom.

It might also be the thread we can refer to later when someone starts a thread saying "R FALCONES 2 TUFF???", thus putting a cork in the cycle of never-ending Falcon talk.

I am hoping and praying I see VoodooBoy post here. :) I'll post my own thing shortly.

Remember... you can always go back and edit your post... but no cross-talk and no bickering!

Let's see if it works. Readysetgo...

azimaith
07-12-2007, 19:58
If you know the falcons are coming you may be able to counter effectively. I have a couple armies who could deal with such threats either gutting the harlequins in assault/shooting or blocking the falcons. The falcons themselves are generally not going to die with the rest of the eldar army trying to gun you down.

The best tactic I can really say is to neutralize the cargo before trying to neutralize the delivery device, falcons just don't put out very accurate firepower and tend to spend alot of the game shaken.

catbarf
07-12-2007, 20:41
Don't bother wasting your heavy firepower, math tells us that MORE DAKKA is the way to go. Autocannons, Plasma Guns, anything throwing out at least two shots is far better than more expensive gunnery that will still only glance.

Or take a Vulcan Macharius. 16 shots is going to drop a Falcon reeeeeeeeeeal fast.

The Song of Spears
07-12-2007, 20:49
Three falcons
+
2 units of 6 harles
+
6 fire dragons
=
975 pts

3 fire prisms = 480pts

So for the extra 500 points I am getting 12 assault models (small units that likely will need to work in tandem to hit standard size enemy units) and 1 fragile short range anti tank squad of 6 models.

The range on the falcons and their task of being a delivery unit ensure they will be shaken most all of the game. And at armour 12, they are easy to shake.

Had I taken fire prisms instead I would be able to out range all but tau railguns and a few ordinance guns. Be able to lay down BS4 str 9 ap2 blasts or str5 ap4 large blasts or twin linked str 10 ap1 blasts or str 6 ap3 large blasts at a range of 60Ē nearly ensuring I can shoot every turn. I have several scoring units that are as durable as a falcons and I would still have 500 points left over for harlequins, dragons in wave serpents and/or a further heavy support option.

Once shaken and their cargo dumped off, they serve only to be able to contest objectives. That stands to reason that 500+ points of the eldar army is doing nothing but waiting around until the last turn. Thatís a large point deficit to overcome when it is unlikely their cargo will kill the 1000 points of enemy units to overcome the points cost of the three falcons and their cargo and remain alive. Itís just not a win-all combo, certainly not against some armies.

There are many great choices in the eldar codex. Any combination of which is deadly if well practiced, as proven by the ĎArd boyz third place eldar player who did not use 3 falcons and did not suffer any losses to a wide variety of armies in the final heat.

This is a customizable game of war, with many many different options here. And sometimes rock, paper scissors is the name of the game should the lists prove too unevenly matched, this goes for all armies and lists.

If you want a balanced match then set it up with your opponent ahead of time. If you want to make the toughest list you can and take on all comers, then do so. But at this point in time there is no one list in any army, certainly not three falcons plus cargo, that can defeat all others out there.

Due to the wide variety of options in 40k, games can be unevenly matched due to something as simple as mission selection, or as much as list composition. Prepare for it or stop whining and get over it, there is always chess for those of you who canít figure out how to general a 40k army.

If you want to be a better general, specifically against 3 falcons then go here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114321&highlight=bird+hunting) and contribute, don't just whine on the internet that's pathetic.

Orbital
07-12-2007, 23:35
Orbital's Final Word on Falcons and the Handling Thereof
Here's my take on the 3 Falcon list. Here's a quick summary of what I wrote (in case you don't wanna read the whole thing):
- 3 Falcon lists are tough to beat
- Even so, there's tons of unnecessary hysteria and myths about these lists
- Some tips for how to beat a 3 Falcon list
- Keep in mind that it's just a game

Why the 3 Falcon List is a problem
Falcons are hard to kill when they're jacked up. Consider a Marine firing a Lascannon at the prow of a Falcon: First he has to roll a 3 or better to hit. Then he has to roll a 3 or better to crack the armor. At this point, he would hold out his hands and get a prize like he'd just successfully gotten a dime into a gumball machine... but not with the goobed-out Falcon; now he has to roll for damage not once, but twice... and only the lower result applies, and you will only be able to roll on the Glancing table, as the Penetrating table is unavailable if he moved more than 6" (which he almost always will). As if that's not enough, all rolls of 1, 2, or 3 are merely "shaken" (thanks to Spirit Stones). A result of 4 removes one of three weapons. A result of 5 means the Falcon merely floats to the ground and is immobilized, passengers and weapons intact (thanks to Vectored Engines). Essentially, if you want to destroy a Falcon you have to roll 3+, 3+, 6+ and 6+... in that order. Other people will tell you what the odds of doing this are, but I believe it rings it at around 4% (never mind how much harder if you have BS3 or if you're firing a lower-strength weapon like a Missile Launcher or Plasma Gun).

Bear in mind that it doesn't end there: The Falcon can also fire up to 9 (count 'em, 9) heavy weapon shots per turn at S6 or better, with a minimum of 2 shots being AP2 or better (so what if it's BS3? With 9 shots, something is gonna get hit). The Falcon can also tearass across the table up to 36" in one turn if it wants, it can fly over terrain, it has a smaller footprint than the heaviest Codex Marine tank (the Land Raider) and and disgorge six passengers (Harlequins or Fire Dragons in this example). Finally, it will never cost more than 245 points at most to put one of these on the table... and you can field three if you want (all with passengers).

That, in my opinion, is too much no matter how you slice it. While I believe it's still a subjective matter, I believe there's strong reason to say that the 3 Falcon + passenger list crosses the line of "fair play" into the realm of "rules abuse".

Myths, conjecture, bias, and general bulls**t
Now, for contrast, I'm going to list a few things that lack sound supporting evidence:
- The 3 Falcon List can't be beaten by good tactics and a bit of luck
- Most Eldar players use the 3 Falcon List
- All tournaments in the world are won by Eldar players using the 3 Falcon List
- The dual myth that the Falcon will be nerfed all to hell in the next Eldar codex, and that the next Eldar codex is due sometime soon.

If you wanna figure out what the 3-Falcon means in terms of impact on the hobby as a whole, it's important to keep in mind that there's some talk going around that's purported as "fact" that lacks true supporting evidence. The above-mentioned four points fall under that category.

There's also a propensity among Warseer folks to say "What should be done about the Falcon?", which is a discussion based on an enormous and completely erroneous assumption that long, rambling Warseer threads steer Games Workshop rules development. I'm not going to get into "what we should do about it" because it's a waste of time and just re-inforces a self-centered assumption.

How to survive it
You're going to have a hard time beating this list. No matter what anyone says, three jacked-up Falcons with weapons blazing and carrying dangerous cargo have the ability to peel you like a grape if unchecked. To stand a chance against this list, your tactical thinking and your dice have to be on the ball. Remember: The basic problem with this list is that it's not fair, so don't expect a fool-proof plan (and ask yourself... would a no-fail counter-strategy not be as broken as the list you're trying to defeat?).

There are basically 3 things I recommend you bear in mind when trying to take down a Falcon:
- Go after the back hatch.
Not enough players take this seriously. As an experienced Eldar player, I literally laugh at you when you try to bust open the front of a goobed-up Falcon with a couple S6 shots. When you get around to the back hatch, I stop laughing. Deep Strike back there... use jump packs... teleport... use your bikes... use your vehicles... summon something ugly... just get around back and then barf up as many shots as you can. Pistols, bolters, flamers, shurikens, shootaz, and anything else you have. Then, if you can, get in there and assault it with anything that can give you a S4 hit or better. The back hatch is the main reason I've lost so many Falcons (and, despite what a lot of people tell you is impossible, I've watched my Falcons burn up time and time again).

- Getting a 6 is hard, but getting 1-5 is not.
One change from the old Eldar codex is that, no matter what, if you crack the Falcon's armor something will happen. In the old book, Spirit Stones would allow the Eldar player to sometimes completely ignore Shaken or Stunned results completely, whereas that's no longer the case. In other words: If you hit and penetrate the armor, you'll get a reward of some kind. It's unlikely you'll destroy a Falcon with a single shot, and we know this. Stick out your bottom lip and pout if you want, or find a way to use what you can get; blow those weapons off, shake it, or immobilize it (and remember: Vectored Engines are a pretty pricey upgrade and a lot of Eldar players don't take it... so that increases your chances of destroying a fast-moving Falcon considerably). So... my point is: You won't get to kill a Falcon as often as you'd wish, but you can make it ineffective and sometimes crippled if you work at it.

- Fear is the mind-killer.
Don't get psyched out. This is the one part of facing a 3 Falcon list that you do have complete control over. The Falcons have enough advantages already without you failing a real-life morale check and wetting your pants when you see them on the table. Put on your big boy underoos, roll up your sleeves, steel your jaw, and get to work... because you'll miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Psych-outs work the other way, too: Every time you bust a Falcon and knock the passenger's teeth out, your Eldar opponent will suffer a huge psychological blow. It's a hard-won advantage, but it'll taste sweet as honey if you do it. So get busy and do it... because it's not impossible.

It's just a game
To all of you who go up against the 3 Falcon List: It's not the end of the world. It really isn't. The guy who puts three Falcons on a table is probably a pretty nice guy and isn't worth getting upset over. Keep it in perspective: Warseer has a way of making certain things seem like the end of the world when they're really just a once-in-a-while inconvenience that can be sorted out over a plate of wings and a pitcher of beer. Don't be one of these guys who takes a hiccup in the 40k rules into his personal relationships.

To all the Eldar players who are fielding 3 Falcon Lists: Thanks for making the rest of us look like dicks. Stupid jerks.

Deus Mechanicus
07-12-2007, 23:57
Hmm not much to add there, lockie lock lock?

Orbital
07-12-2007, 23:59
Hmm not much to add there, lockie lock lock?
You in a rush?

Kahadras
08-12-2007, 00:31
I wouldn't worry about the 3 Falcon. The two places you are going to meet this list are...

a) In a tourney
b) In casual play

In the case of a) you know what you're letting yourself in for. In the hyper competitive environment of tournaments you're fairly likely to run into a tri Falcon list or five and you can't say you didn't see it comming (unless you're a total noob, in such case WELCOME TO 40K!)

In the case of b) you have the option to refuse the game, laugh in their faces (optional) and walk away. No one is going to force you to play against them and you don't have to if you don't want to.

My main annoyance stems from the fact that GW stuffed up a really good 4th ed codex with the Falcon/Harliquin combo. After the huge pile of fail the 3rd ed and Craftworld codeci were I was hopeful that the new Eldar codex would be awesome. Instead we got a rerun of the 4th ed Marine codex were GW fixed some things but either left stuff in (min/maxed Laz/plas squads/tooled up Falcon) or 'fixed' stuff too hard (assault cannon/Harliquins).

Kahadras

Spleendokta
08-12-2007, 00:35
Maybe you should create another falcon thread to make sure this will be the last thread about falcons.

Orbital
08-12-2007, 00:39
Ok. Whatever.