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Mr Kibbles
07-12-2007, 20:49
Do ya think that the Imperium could and would allow its fighting vehicles, like the russ, to run on hydrogen?
Would it be weird for a PDF to have hydrogen-powered aircraft and tanks?

Zapherion
07-12-2007, 22:00
Urm...i would have thought it would be extremely dangerous as any fumes leaking into the vehicles interior would be kinda flamable and thus such vehicles could spontaneously burst into flames...i think...

MrBigMr
07-12-2007, 22:58
Urm...i would have thought it would be extremely dangerous as any fumes leaking into the vehicles interior would be kinda flamable and thus such vehicles could spontaneously burst into flames...i think...
Right, because gasoline is so much more reliable.
Burning hydrogen makes water, which isn't very dangerous to me. So having such stuff, would be reasonable, but we can't think about it because it doesn't fit with the oily, smoking style of the Imperium.

dodgethis
07-12-2007, 23:14
mmmm I spy an exposed hydrogen fuel cell with my long las.

Clockwork-Knight
07-12-2007, 23:47
If they can have rhinos with small plasma fusion cores, they'll easily have other STC vehicles with hidrogen-powered engines. At least, in theory. It's not going to be wide-spread, however. The easier, the better, and the more reliable it is, the more you will encounter it all around.

Kage2020
08-12-2007, 00:04
Don't forget that would be "small plasma fusion cores" that can also run on charcoal briquettes, logs and corpses if needed. Yet, they're so advanced that it is "total matter conversion," far more powerful than mere antimatter power plants. ;)

(Which reminds me, I need to throw in more "soul burning" engines into 40kFantasy... Erm, that's an aside, though. :D)

Kage

Clockwork-Knight
08-12-2007, 00:20
Huh? What are you talking about, Kage2020?

Kage2020
08-12-2007, 00:25
Just referencing an argument that I had seen elsewhere - it might have even been in the 'fluff' - that suggests some Imperial vehicles can run on practically anything. Sort of a universal engine, but regardless it still sports a substantial exhaust that churns out oily black smoke. Go figure. ;)

One has to presume that even if hydrogen fuel cells existed in most peoples' 40k universe whether they, too, would churn out the same smoke... ;)

(And don't worry about the "soul burner" reference. It's for 40kFantasy [fan project], and not 40k, or even a fan interpretation of 40k.)

Kage

LordXaras
08-12-2007, 00:30
What's with the black smoke? The Imperium runs its vehicles on Promethium as a standard, with combustion of anything else as an emergency alternative. One has to assume that the Rhinos and Russes running on Promethium and logs of wood/rations/babies must outnumber those that run on hydrogen cells/plasma/flintstone drive.
;)

Kage2020
08-12-2007, 00:35
It's the aesthetic, seemingly... Lots of black smoke belching out of everywhere. And it's less an issue of frequency, and more one of capability. :D

Kage

LordXaras
08-12-2007, 00:39
Of course, there is also the matter of the Adeptus Mechanicus becoming very nervous if things are not working as usual, so they might've incorporated a "thick, black smoke"-generator in every Imperial machine, just to ease their own nerves.

Kage2020
08-12-2007, 00:46
LOL! :D

At their heart, every Adeptus Mechanicus TechPriest is a roadie... ;)

Kage

LordXaras
08-12-2007, 00:50
At their heart, every Adeptus Mechanicus TechPriest is a roadie... ;)They appear that way, but it's simply a matter of them not liking dirty commoners touching their stuff (i.e. everything). As soon as they turn their backs someone will break something.

MrBigMr
08-12-2007, 01:10
In the army, our 5 miles to the gallon trucks spewed out blue smoke. And the oil froze at -30c. (ever seen a guy have to heat up the oil can on an open flame before pouring it into the engine?). That's life in the Guard for you, I tell ya.

As for combustion engines, I'm making a marine chapter that has them on their backs, instead of some fancy 'hello sailor' fusion reactor. So what if it ain't kosher, it's cool. Big noisy thing running, spinning the generator and powering up the suit. Wibrating like a maniac and the exhausts filling the air with that gasoline smell.

BrainFireBob
08-12-2007, 01:22
Little note-

Combusting hydrogen is very dangerous. Hydrogen burns very, very fast and very, very hot. Think "explosion" vs. "just a little water vapor."

However, it would explain the 6 on the pen table.

BrotherAdso
08-12-2007, 01:23
"There's nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning," MrBigMr!

Guardsman: Those Orks over the ridge are spotting their artillery because they can see out fumes!

Guardsman 2: Look, I rigged up these filters for our 'stacks...

Mechanicus: Heresy! It is the will of the Omnissah that thou shalt not block the respiration of the Machine Spirit!

Guardsman 2: But the tank still works ....

Mechanicus: Without the fume of respiration, a machine operates only on trickery!


On a more serious note, maybe the total-conversion engine has to strip so many 'extraneous particles' from atoms to get at what it needs (neutrons?) that it has to spew like a truck with a Confederate flag and more ashtrays than beer holders....

-Adso

RexTalon
08-12-2007, 02:35
I don't think any of you really understand hydrogen. (except maybe Bob)

It's a method of energy storage. To release the energy you need electricity. in order to get a lot of readily available electricity, the most efficient way possible, you would burn fossil fuel and turn a motor.

In other words, there is NO WAY to avoid using the 40k version of gas, promethium.

RexTalon
08-12-2007, 02:39
EDIT: Incidentally, that's another reason you don't see H powered cars running around. You'd still need to hit the gas station to produce the power required to run the car. Besides, it's dangerous. If you want to get into an auto accident in an H powered car, you go right ahead. I'll stick with my Gas/Electric hybrids until a miracle comes along.

Brother Siccarius
08-12-2007, 14:15
EDIT: Incidentally, that's another reason you don't see H powered cars running around. You'd still need to hit the gas station to produce the power required to run the car. Besides, it's dangerous. If you want to get into an auto accident in an H powered car, you go right ahead. I'll stick with my Gas/Electric hybrids until a miracle comes along.

No (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21791296/), but yes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle) (if answering in order).

The reason we haven't seen it before isn't because it's an entirely flawed thing, it's because they couldn't convince a car company to design or re-design the way their cars work before. It just wasn't economical at the time, but thanks to this international Global Warming scare it's suddenly economical to cater to hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Kage2020
08-12-2007, 14:46
It's a method of energy storage.
Erm, so are the fuels used in internal combustion engines. That's kind of the point, surely? If it didn't "store" energy - moderated by the engine, of course (pouring water as a fuel into an internal combustion engine wouldn't do any good even though water also stores energy) - then it, well, would do any good at all... Surely?


In other words, there is NO WAY to avoid using the 40k version of gas, promethium.
Spoken like a true oil baron! There are, well, alternate methods of propulsion that are hypothesised and some of these might be available in the future.

The main advantage of the gas-drive vehicle is that you don't need that initiator to the process.

With that said, I'd be kinda of reticent sitting in a car-portable version of the Hindenburg. (Of course, the point being that they do not appear to be that, even if that is a powerful image in the common mindset.) Yet, again, hydrogen has been posited as a component of many future propulsion systems...

Kage

Noserenda
08-12-2007, 21:12
Half of the point of the STC program was to produce items that could run on locally available resources/tech, so id imagine there are fully functioning STC Variants for things like Rhinos and Toasters which run on Hydrogen/Promethium/Hamster Blood, ofc, whether or not the imperium the use of them is another matter.

That and IG tanks have been noted as running on nigh on anything, which i took to mean a potential engine refit rather a literal "pour anything in" fuel tank, which pretty much confirms Hydrogen powered vehicles, which arent all the dangerous becuase its Sci FI and things work because they do :cheese:

Kage2020
08-12-2007, 23:12
I'm more than happy with different engines to make use of local resources, but I've long waited for some wag of a miniature converter/painter to come up with a Mr Fusion to strap onto a Rhino (or whatever). ;)

Kage

The Warmaster
09-12-2007, 01:24
In other words, there is NO WAY to avoid using the 40k version of gas, promethium.

You do realise that promethium is a real element, right? (It's currently produced synthetically, or can be found as a byproduct of uranium, for those who don't know.) It's not their petrol-equivalent, although I'd imagine that Rhino crews could utilise it in such a way. As for whether real promethium combusts on contact with oxygen, I'm not sure.

I've never heard of any hydrogen-powered vehicles in 40K, as far as I can recall, although I can imagine that some STC vehicles could use it (most likely requiring modification, given the explosive properties of hydrogen that were explained by BrainFireBob an unspecified number of posts back). After all, according to the Rhino article back in what I believe was the White Dwarf of April '02 (I don't actually own it, but a friend does), almost anything, including petrol, charcoal, wood, corpses or even boiled water (the list wasn't that extensive, but you get the idea), could be utilised in certain STC engines.

- N.

RedStompa
09-12-2007, 01:34
so they might've incorporated a "thick, black smoke"-generator in every Imperial machine, just to ease their own nerves.

Lol Leave it to the AdMech to develop and implement useless, but religously appeasing crap welded to vehicles.

LordXaras
09-12-2007, 13:41
You do realise that promethium is a real element, right?Doesn't matter. Promethium in 40k is the name of a wide range of combustibe petroleum products. No relation to the real element.

FrankManic
09-12-2007, 18:16
I think it's unlikely that they run on Hydrogen, as the byproducts aren't nearly toxic enough. I imagine that imperial tanks have a slug of dirty uranium in the bottom of the tank that is used to super heat water to drive a turbine. That way, when they blow up, you have bits of turbine shooting all over the place and a small spume of radioactive nastiness.

Really, though, they probably run on plot. A space marine's pack can produce enough power to keep his suit running more or less until the end of the book. Shove a couple of those into a Rhino, back it up with a redundant engine that burns anything over seventy proof, and call it good.

TheBigBadWolf
09-12-2007, 18:36
I doubt that the imperium would use hydrogen it does not occur naturally and has to be produced by man for sufficent quantities. It will not break into the mainstream as the volume of energy needed to make a quantity big enough to replace petrol is massive. Thats why you can laugh at polititians when they say they are wanting more renewables and hydrogen fuel cells, as the two cant work, you need a nuclear power station or something that makes electricity constantly to make hydrogen, you just cant get that output on wind turbines and wave. The imperium would use whatever is easiest and hydrogen is not easy. (Before anyone says i dont understand i currently have a degree in Natural Resources, so i know what i am on about)

empireguard
09-12-2007, 19:20
I think you guys are talking about two very different things. the Hydrogen fuel cell which turn Hydrogen and Oxygen directly in to water and produces electricity with out burning anything. The Hydrogen fuelled engine which just burns Hydrogen like cars to petrol.

Macrus
09-12-2007, 20:02
Burning hydrogen makes water.

You do realise that when you "burn" hydrogen it doesnt turn onto water, it explodes.

Do you know why it explodes, its because it is highly flammble. So if someone shot at it, it wouldnt just cover the tank in water, it would blow it up.

Macrus

MrBigMr
09-12-2007, 20:16
You do realise that when you "burn" hydrogen it doesnt turn onto water, it explodes.

Do you know why it explodes, its because it is highly flammble. So if someone shot at it, it wouldnt just cover the tank in water, it would blow it up.

Macrus
You do know that even rusting is a form of 'burning', iron being bonded with oxygen. We were able to make hydrogen and oxygen from water, and then burn it back into water in school. It didn't go off in a fiery inferno, you know, as the thing was controlled, as it would be in an engine.

As for firing at the tank, it might not explode from being lit, but from the pressure erupting from the inside, like a balloon. A jerry can won't explode when shot at, so if gasoline (taken that vapours light up pretty easily) won't get enough heat from the bullet flying through it, why would hydrogen?

BrainFireBob
09-12-2007, 22:26
It's the expansion of the gas.

A small volume of Hydrogen and Oxgyen gases combine into a very large volume of water vapor due to the vast heat released by the combustion. Hence "explosive."