PDA

View Full Version : Looking to Actually Start 40k



Bingo the Fun Monkey
07-12-2007, 21:53
Hello, I've been playing Fantasy for just over 10 years (since Thanksgiving), and while I had collected 2 platoons and 2 armored fist squads of Steel Legion, played ~3 games during 3rd ed, I don't know what army I truly wish to go for. While I was still rough with the rules when I played, I did have fun, because it didn't feel like I needed to "think" as much as in Fantasy. I think what I can get out of 40k is a nice, quick, bloodbath when I'm in the mood for it. Although I have Dwarfs, Skaven and Beastmen, I really only ever play my Orcs and Goblins now. I'm looking for starting an army that's a bit different in play style and philosophy than the O/G. I guess here's what I'm looking for:

1) an army that places some emphasis on movement and combined arms

2) i don't really care if the army is shooting reliant or combat reliant, a mix of both would be nice

3) something interesting to paint

4) an army list that has great potential for a huge variety of lists and viable play styles

Also, should I just wait for the new Orks codex to come out? I do love my greenskins, but I fear I will be sick of painting another 200+ green fellas.

MrPickles
07-12-2007, 21:58
You basically just defined an eldar army. Take a look:

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40K/eldar/default.htm

You should buy a box of dire avengers. Now.

Bhorden
07-12-2007, 22:01
I think tau is what you are looking for you get a cool army which is fun to paint you get the kroot and the vespid for some cool beasts and a huge range whith a huge heap of hight teck tricks up their sleeves.

The_Patriot
07-12-2007, 22:01
Hello, I've been playing Fantasy for just over 10 years (since Thanksgiving), and while I had collected 2 platoons and 2 armored fist squads of Steel Legion, played ~3 games during 3rd ed, I don't know what army I truly wish to go for. While I was still rough with the rules when I played, I did have fun, because it didn't feel like I needed to "think" as much as in Fantasy. Although I have Dwarfs, Skaven and Beastmen, I really only ever play my Orcs and Goblins now. I'm looking for starting an army that's a bit different in play style and philosophy than the O/G. I guess here's what I'm looking for:

1) an army that places some emphasis on movement and combined arms

2) i don't really care if the army is shooting reliant or combat reliant, a mix of both would be nice

3) something interesting to paint

4) an army list that has great potential for a huge variety of lists and viable play styles

Also, should I just wait for the new Orks codex to come out? I do love my greenskins, but I fear I will be sick of painting another 200+ green fellas.


An all mechanized Sisters of Battle combined with Seraphim emphasize movement and combined arms. If the group you're playing with is pretty laid back you could always ask them about taking Drop Pods and Valkyries for your foot slogging Sisters.

Battle Sisters are okay in close combat, but excel in shooting. Seraphim are excellent in both shooting and close combat.

If you like nice details Sisters miniatures have an over abundance of detail on their minis.

Sisters of Battle can have a lot of variety since you can use IG and Grey Knights as allies. If you take any Sisters squads you're precluded from taking Space Marines as allies, except for Grey Knights.

Mad Jack Deacon
07-12-2007, 22:07
I think you're going to get everyone suggesting their favorite army to you (and I'm no different), but I think that only the Eldar are going to fulfill all the 4 points you listed above. It's point number 4 (variety in play/army lists) that gives the Eldar the lead in this race. With it's Craftworld varients, each one is plays a completely different way.

Enjoy and good luck!

Hicks
07-12-2007, 22:19
I don't play either, but from what you're describing I think you would like Eldar or Dark Eldar.

Oh and sell you Steel Legion to me!;)

slickis
07-12-2007, 22:22
Yeah, i play chaos (so not biased) but as I was reading through your list, i thought eldar too. You'll be able be bring a tad more of your strategic mind across from fantasy, more so than you would with marines or something else, the eldar do require a tad of finesse~

ps: buy an avatar :D

Chaos Legion
07-12-2007, 22:31
I agree with Mad Jack. My fave army is Chaos Space Marines but I would suggest, as an all rounder, Space Marines. Why? Ferrocious assault units, reliable transports, tough armour like the land raider, and flexible tactical units. This combines into a highly addaptable army, stoic in defence, aggressive in the assault. Tau dont like the clash of cold steel, Orks are just mental. Eldar may well be another choice as they excell in just about everthing! My recommendation for you would be Ultramarines.

big squig
07-12-2007, 23:04
Sounds like eldar would be the right step for you...but just about any army would fit your needs. I'd say stay away from necrons or bugs though. They're great armies...but it sounds like they are not what you're looking for.

With that out of the way, let me share some advice. Beginners (and especially fantasy vets) have a habit of playing 40k like fantasy. They play a pitched battle on a table with about 10% terrain coverage. Break that habit as soon as possible. I promise in the end you will be greatly disappointed with 40k if you play that way.

Try and follow these guidelines as close as possible when you play:
-25% to 40% terrain.
-PLAY A MISSION EVERY TIME. Don't be afraid of the advanced missions.
- in a standard mission, place something LOS blocking close to the center of the board.
- Have 1/3 of the terrain be area, 1/3 difficult, 1/3 impassible
- Try not to scatter the terrain all over, group like terrain together.
- Never have an 12"x12" area empty.

These are ways to avoid every game turning into a giant melle in the middle or a giant stand and shoot fest.

SquishySquig
07-12-2007, 23:12
:skull: I too ofcourse would recommend my army, the orks, but I don't want to force you to paint something that you will find tedious. Eldar is the army that immediately springs to mind from what you say, but I will throw in with The_Patriot. Sisters stratagey really rely on their movement (From my experiance playing against them) and their models are incredible. So go with mechanized sisters.
:skull:

SharpSilver
07-12-2007, 23:28
Tau are a good army for what you defined to want, I think they come under points you wanted in your army.

Orks are a good choice too though, interesting to paint, but if you've done them before in fantasy; you may want a break from them and could try Tau.

I'd rather say just pick IG because I'm soon going to be collecting those instead of SM, and they own, ^^

Bingo the Fun Monkey
08-12-2007, 02:56
Thanks for the replies guys! It seems people are thinking either Eldar or Tau with some support for the Sisters of Battle. I like the Tau as a race and I was happy when they were introduced to the 40k universe, but I'm not too keen on those big ball-bearing joints the battlesuits have. Overall I'd still prefer to play a "fantasy" space army instead of a plausible space-race.

The Eldar intrigue me: the models are beautifully sculpted, and the list looks very versatile. Can anyone tell me how Beil Taan and Saim Hann (sp or either?) actually play? What the gist of the strategy is? Also, which one is more commonly seen in your area?

Sisters of Battle: Fascist Space Nuns with Guns! If I went this route I'd be able to keep a platoon of my Steel Legion (they are beautiful models, a love at first sight purchase) and sell off the rest. How is movement integral to their strategy? Tell me more... Also, will there be an update soon for the Inquisitional forces? Will they be discontinued? How should/would this affect my shopping strategy?

The_Patriot
08-12-2007, 03:08
Thanks for the replies guys! It seems people are thinking either Eldar or Tau with some support for the Sisters of Battle. I like the Tau as a race and I was happy when they were introduced to the 40k universe, but I'm not too keen on those big ball-bearing joints the battlesuits have. Overall I'd still prefer to play a "fantasy" space army instead of a plausible space-race.

The Eldar intrigue me: the models are beautifully sculpted, and the list looks very versatile. Can anyone tell me how Beil Taan and Saim Hann (sp or either?) actually play? What the gist of the strategy is? Also, which one is more commonly seen in your area?

Sisters of Battle: Fascist Space Nuns with Guns! If I went this route I'd be able to keep a platoon of my Steel Legion (they are beautiful models, a love at first sight purchase) and sell off the rest. How is movement integral to their strategy? Tell me more... Also, will there be an update soon for the Inquisitional forces? Will they be discontinued? How should/would this affect my shopping strategy?

Well Sisters are short to medium ranged army so movement is really integral to their strategy. You can use rhinos to move your basic Sisters up to an objective and unload them out of the transport. You then use the transport as mobile terrain after you secure the objective to block LOS from enemy units. Seraphims can be tooled out for tank or infantry hunting and are superb in both roles. For anti-infantry duties you use them as a screen for a jump capable Canoness and use them as a delivery system for her. The Canoness is the ultimate IC killer and you use the Seraphim to soften up the IC's retinue so the Canoness can do her work.

Right now, there are no plans for an update to the Inquisition, so it really shouldn't affect your purchases of units. The earliest I've read rumors of a new Codex is 2009/2010.

big squig
08-12-2007, 03:23
Few things are more scary than the immolater with 5 sisters in it with flamers using that AP1 act of faith thingy.

Sisters are an army that, like tau can be, gets up close not really for assault, but for firefights. They don't have lascannons and such (though guard allies can help with that) but all their weapons are mobile, short ranged, cheap, and devastating. Add is their cheap costs and great armor and acts of faith and they really are a rough army to fight. They also have access to marine allies and special stuff like arco flagelents.

Eldar I don't play, so I'm not the best person to ask, but they are all about combined arms. Every unit is very specialized and is there to back up each other. You do have basic ground troops like dire avengers to be your main battleline and objective grabbers, but the rest of your army is set up for specialized tasks like assault, heavy pressure, long range, infiltrating and so forth.

The other great advantage of eldar (and tau and to a lesser extent sisters) is their mobility. The movement phase controls pretty much the entire game and these armies can run circles around a static force.

PumaKiller
08-12-2007, 03:37
I have to give my vote to Eldar here. Your list made me think of them right away.


1) an army that places some emphasis on movement and combined arms

For Eldar combined arms is a must. A truly effective Eldar army has many different elements all working in tandem. Also Farseers have a lot of unit boosting abilities that can tip the scale here and there. Eldar are also very mobile. Most of their vehicles are fast skimmers and the majority of their troops have fleet.


2) i don't really care if the army is shooting reliant or combat reliant, a mix of both would be nice

Eldar are a mix of both. Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, Guardians, and Wraithguard are all shooty while Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Harlequins. Warlocks and Shining Spears are very close combat oriented.


3) something interesting to paint

Eldar are a very sleek and dynamic looking army. Also each of their aspect warriors have their own shrine and colour schemes so there can be a lot of freedom and variation in a single Eldar force. They also have some truly impressive models.


4) an army list that has great potential for a huge variety of lists and viable play styles

This is the biggest point. The Eldar army list is huge. There are 5 very different troop choices alone, Guardians, Dire Avengers, Wraithguard, Rangers and Jetbikes. You could play aspect heavy, fast Jetbike forces, mobile transport and skimmer armies, wraith forces, more foot based shooty armies and any other mix you desire.

MrPickles
08-12-2007, 15:37
The Eldar intrigue me: the models are beautifully sculpted, and the list looks very versatile. Can anyone tell me how Beil Taan and Saim Hann (sp or either?) actually play? What the gist of the strategy is? Also, which one is more commonly seen in your area?

Biel-Tan is made of a bunch of aspect warriors, sometimes mounted in wave serpents. This leads to the "mech eldar" style of list, which basically consists of a fast hq (autrauch or farseer on jetbike), a couple mounted elites, a couple squads of dire avengers as troops, and fire prisms and falcons as heavy support. The eldar tanks are incredibly tough, so it makes this style of play VERY competitive. Although you could go with a footslogging list if you like. Also, more than any other eldar list, you need to use each aspect in a combined arms approach, meaning you need to have the right unit in the right place.

Saim Hann lists basically consist of these units:

Anything on a jetbike

Anything skimmer (Though they tend to like vypers).

Hope that helps.

Trickle
08-12-2007, 18:59
Can anyone tell me how Beil Taan and Saim Hann (sp or either?) actually play? What the gist of the strategy is? Also, which one is more commonly seen in your area?


If ebay is to be considered an accurate representation of the most common colour scheme, then Biel Tan is easily the ultramarines of the Eldar outnumbering all other colour schemes by a huge factor (apart from stealth undercoat).

That said, they are supposed to be the 'main craftworld' fulf wise and they were the only ones that satisfied me in the fluf department.

One reason for the shear number of Biet Tan guardians on the bay could be that they are chose by those who might not 'last the distance' thus skewering the ebay result by too many n00bs like me selling up a never completed army.

Edit: Actually, the poorly painted Biel Tan guardian on Ebay seems to fetch more than a reasonably painted 'independent' colour scheme. Lots of people fed up with painting white? Or that people consider the majority white scheme to be salvageable/repaintable?

MuttMan
08-12-2007, 21:13
40k is based around terrain tactics. The more terrain, the more you need to think, and in heavy terrain, some fantasy players end up griping 40k is too difficult. (First they complain about the terrain, then they realise they could have deployed/move differently and won)

Bingo the Fun Monkey
08-12-2007, 21:15
I think I should pick up the Eldar Codex. I just feel they have more variety and they won't be updated any time soon. Thanks for the input guys.

Getifa Ubazza
08-12-2007, 21:36
I pretty much agree with most here. Eldar sound like the army you want. I know im a Nid player, but really, if you want something that is completely differant to anything in fantasy, you cant get much differant to Nids. Although they can be a bit point and click if your not careful.

Tourge
08-12-2007, 21:50
Orks can have tons of trukks and other mobile things plus tons of new shooty stuff in the new codex. But if you don't want to play them again in 40k because you had orcs in fantasy.. then maybe listen to what the other people in the thread say.

kris.sherriff
09-12-2007, 06:41
With that out of the way, let me share some advice. Beginners (and especially fantasy vets) have a habit of playing 40k like fantasy. They play a pitched battle on a table with about 10% terrain coverage. Break that habit as soon as possible. I promise in the end you will be greatly disappointed with 40k if you play that way.

Try and follow these guidelines as close as possible when you play:
-25% to 40% terrain.
-PLAY A MISSION EVERY TIME. Don't be afraid of the advanced missions.
- in a standard mission, place something LOS blocking close to the center of the board.
- Have 1/3 of the terrain be area, 1/3 difficult, 1/3 impassible
- Try not to scatter the terrain all over, group like terrain together.
- Never have an 12"x12" area empty.

These are ways to avoid every game turning into a giant melle in the middle or a giant stand and shoot fest.

Very, Very good advice for moving from fantasy to 40K.

Army wise I would actualy advise that you stick with your Steel Legion as they are very nice models that you obviously liked enough to buy in the first place. The Imperial Guard Codex is one of the most varied out there and can be built to fit any play style (Ok I admit tough, resilient elite troops can be a strugle but is not inpossible with the inclusion of some GK Termis and some other stuff)

Kris

Grand Master Raziel
09-12-2007, 12:39
3) something interesting to paint

I moved this over because this is at the heart of the issue. You have to choose an army that will hold your interest if you're going to commit to making it look good on the table.



1) an army that places some emphasis on movement and combined arms

Well, the first things I thought of were Eldar and Tau, but really you can play almost any army this way. However, it's easier to pull off with either of these armies because the vehicle rules are a lot more favorable for Skimmers than they are for ground-based vehicles.

That said, Space Marines also work pretty well as a mechanised army. Some of the worst drubbings I've ever handed out have been with my mech SM lists. Codex: Space Marines has a set of rules (the Chapter Traits system) that allow you to tweak the particulars of the list a little bit. If you take the one that allows you to replace your Tactical Squad's heavy weapon with an additional assault weapon (Cleanse And Purify), then you wind up with a very good close-range firefighting force. Throw everything in a Rhino (transport) and add some Predator tanks for mobile fire support and bullet-magnet duty, and you've got yourself a pretty decent army. My own experience tells me that it works well, it's just that most people don't think of SM armies being played in this way because so many people play the SM gunline army.


2) i don't really care if the army is shooting reliant or combat reliant, a mix of both would be nice

Well, Tau are the weakest army in the close-combat department, even more so than IG, IMO. The thing with Eldar is that their units tend to excel at one aspect of the game - not quite to the exclusion of all else, but they can definately get bonked over the head by something outside of their area of expertise, so you want to field a mix of units to avoid having any glaring defieciencies in your army. If you want an army of capable all-arounders, then you should get Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines.



4) an army list that has great potential for a huge variety of lists and viable play styles


Again, virtually every army can give you a huge variety of lists. You'll never be able to use every unit in your Codex in any particular game you play, so if you feel the need for a little variety, you can swap X out in favor of Y and mess around with Y for a while. I do it all the time with my Space Marine army.



The Eldar intrigue me: the models are beautifully sculpted, and the list looks very versatile. Can anyone tell me how Beil Taan and Saim Hann (sp or either?) actually play? What the gist of the strategy is? Also, which one is more commonly seen in your area?

Playing one of the Craftworld armies is more about choosing a theme to base your army around more than anything else. In the case of Biel Tann it's Aspect Warriors, and with Saim Hann it's speed. That said, those Craftworlds' fighting forces have at their disposal everything in Codex: Eldar, so it's not inappropriate to field, say, Biel Tann Guardians or Saim Hann Wraithlords. The reason people don't (again, IMO) is because when they try to theme an army, they tend to go whole-hog and take the theme to extreme lengths.


Sisters of Battle: Fascist Space Nuns with Guns! If I went this route I'd be able to keep a platoon of my Steel Legion (they are beautiful models, a love at first sight purchase) and sell off the rest. How is movement integral to their strategy? Tell me more... Also, will there be an update soon for the Inquisitional forces? Will they be discontinued? How should/would this affect my shopping strategy?

Movement is very intergral to the SoB strategy. They're primarily a close-ranged firefighting army, so the best way to play them is mech-mobile. The thing with the SoBs is that it doesn't really pay to mix SoB and non-SoB units. The SoBs have a really tight army list in the first place, and their rules include Faith-based powers, the amount of which you can use per game being based on how many SoB units you have on the table. So, if you're going to play the SoBs, you'd be likely want to take as full advantage of the Faith-based powers you can, so you wouldn't want to dilute that with inducted IG.

On the other hand, since you already have some IG models, that does sort of bump up the amount of points you can field right out of the gate if you choose either Witch Hunters (aka Sisters of Battle and a few other assorted units) or Daemonhunters. Also, a combined IG/SoB force might not be so bad - a couple of IG Infantry platoons or Armored Fist Squads for long-range fire support for your close-range firefighting SoBs. Plus, if you have two Troops choices of IG, you can throw in an inducted Leman Russ battle tank, too! :D That's what I'm currently doing with my Daemonhunters army. Plus, if you have two IG Troops choices and a Leman Russ, if you grab an IG Officer and another 4 guys, you can field a small-but-legal IG army as well! Might as well, if you go the Sisters route.

Based on what I wrote above, I think the best army for you to go with at this point would be the Sisters of Battle. You needn't worry about them going away any time soon. They're popular, they've got a good army list (unlike Grey Knights), and their one-third of the Inquisitorial trio. Admittedly, the Inquistorial trio is currently incomplete due to the lack of a Codex: Alienhunters, but I think that's because GW has no freaking clue what they're going to do for that book.

As for transitioning to 40K, listen to Big Squig. Also, it'll eventually be worth your while to own and read ever Codex in the game. Don't worry about it while you're learning the game and getting used to whatever army you decide on, but when you want to step up your game, that's when it'll be time to collect the other dexes.

splat
12-12-2007, 14:19
really I'm kinda in the same boat as you are. I played tyranids in 3rd and stopped playing when 4th released. just recently I bought a bunch of codex and started reading them trying to decide which army I mights start playing again.

Imperial seemed interesting at 1st but they seem to be based on tanks and machines only with poor base troopers (lasgun has no AP w/ str 3 and troopers have BS3)

right now I've narrowed it down to either type of marine (chaos/space) being the most flexable and powerful/useful in battle. I still can't decide between the 2 though.

note: I am slightly bias/racist as in I don't like elves in most/all of there forms so eldar seems pretty much out of the question

SharpSilver
12-12-2007, 17:21
really I'm kinda in the same boat as you are. I played tyranids in 3rd and stopped playing when 4th released. just recently I bought a bunch of codex and started reading them trying to decide which army I mights start playing again.

Imperial seemed interesting at 1st but they seem to be based on tanks and machines only with poor base troopers (lasgun has no AP w/ str 3 and troopers have BS3)

right now I've narrowed it down to either type of marine (chaos/space) being the most flexable and powerful/useful in battle. I still can't decide between the 2 though.

note: I am slightly bias/racist as in I don't like elves in most/all of there forms so eldar seems pretty much out of the question


Now, you said IG are based purely on Machines?

Fail.

Imperial guard lasguns may not be the best weapons, compared to say, Boltguns, but in mass, and with say the 'Sharpshooter' doctrine, they can be a force to be met with awe. Plus with the other specialised doctrines its possible to make a deep striking force of stormstroopers that can do the job, pretty well. They may not be the best troops, but they do the job, if you know what to do.

However, most armies incorporate moderate amounts of armor in their ranks, they don't completely rely on the tanks, but, its sometimes necessary to support the frontline with them.

For example; for fighting horde armies, such as Nids and Necrons and so-forth, a hellhound can decimate sometimes nasty amounts of troops, with its flamethrower, and thats its job, support the frontline infantry with anti-infantry vehicles.

And the Leman Russ battle tank MKII, the most common tank in the IG Arsenal, has a awesome amount of frontal armor and side, however its back may be weaker, but it has a pair of Side Sponsons, 1 Battle cannon, and a Las-cannon and a optional SB. Sometimes you don't need any of these in your lists, sometimes you may want 1,2,3, it all depends on what your fighting, but they are pretty powerful, and look great if I might add;)

So really, not all IG armies completely rely on Armor, its nice, but not always necessary.

Strikerkc
12-12-2007, 17:45
Well, it looks like your probably going to play Eldar (or at the very least look into them heavily). As that is the case I really feel it important to let you know how some folks will see certain army set-ups.

Probably one of the most effective (and sadly, one of the coolest looking) army set ups is to have vipers, tanks, and lots of cheap units in wave serpents. You can dance around any army, you can out range just about any army, you can out shoot just about any army, and since your transports and tanks are very durable compared to their ability to saturate the enemy with fire, a lot of people will moan (and eventually just not play against you) if that's the set up you go with.

I, and most people I know, wouldn't care if a person fielded a list like that every now and then, but playing against it a lot can get pretty old. It's practically impossible to beat in a stand up "kill the other guy" game unless your army list is tailored to defeat it (IG with masses of infantry and auto cannons comes to mind).