PDA

View Full Version : How do Tyranids deal with Chaos?



Cosmocrat
08-12-2007, 00:59
Its an odd image to image the 'Nids chowing down on Demons.

But, doesn't the Hive Mind protect them from the corrupting effect of Chaos?

Geddonight
08-12-2007, 01:21
You know, I've often thought that Chaos (or Necrons) would be the ideal counter to Tyranid invasion. Daemons, when slain in realspace, just go back to the warp. In theory, you could throw endless waves of daemons at tyranids, as long as the chaos gods are willing (and if the price of inaction is losing their followers, then they might just do it).

My inclination is that Tyranids will avoid chaos worlds just as they would necron tomb worlds.

Cosmocrat
08-12-2007, 01:24
I don't think the Tyranids AVOID Necron Tomb Worlds as much as they avoided the Dyson Sphere that contained the Outsider.

After all, the Tyranids attacked Medusa V, and it was a Necron Tombworld.

As to the demon theory: I don't know why they would avoid Chaos Worlds at all: there would likely be some biomass and the influence of the Warp Gods wouldn't trouble them because the Chaos Gods couldn't overpower the Hive Mind.

RexTalon
08-12-2007, 02:30
I agree. They eat. They don't care what the thing they're eating is thinking, or what kind of power it has. If they attacked a chaos sorcerer, and the sorcerer tried to corrupt one of them, ten of his buddies would jump on the sorcerer and eat him.

That said, I can't say chaos would be too happy about the Nids. Chaos gets power from worship. If there is nobody left, then Chaos can't have more power. Then the warp will be calm once more.

Slazton
08-12-2007, 03:50
Grandfather Nurgle can corrupt them and use their bodies to continue to infest and inflict pain and misery.

Daemons have no biomass and as long as that Black Monolith stands Dark Brothers, the Children of Chaos shall dance their dance and bring the Holy Dark Words to them. The Tyranids are also weak to the techno-virus of the Obliterator cult. We have weapons and tools and the Dark Gods shall even control them.

Plus, they are just attacking planets already given to them by Tzeentch. They are all apart of His Plan.

azimaith
08-12-2007, 03:54
Tyranids don't even draw daemons from the warp despite their massive psychic presence. It may be to the point where daemons are actually *afraid* of them. Normally they get drawn like flies to massive psychic phenomena.

Hell, they won't even attack other psykers near tyranids if people try to use the "tyranids have no souls" excuse.

Hive Mind 33
08-12-2007, 04:00
Chaos is just more prey. The NIds are impossible to corrupt, the Hive Mind is more powerful then mere chaos sorcerers. I know tigerus(sp?) got in i am think the Hive Mind let him get that far to show him It will not stop. The gods would have a hell of a time getting in to realspace with the Shadow anyway.

Slazton
08-12-2007, 04:02
Please reference William King's Ragnar series. I believe Grey Hunter is the book I am after. The Tyranids were infected with a disease of Grandfather Nurgle.

Chaos can and will manifest in the prescense of Tyranids. Why else could I summon Tzeentch daemons against them (previous Chaos Codex) and Doombolt those Gaunts back to hell?

The Shaodw of the Warp might be a hinderance, give me a Black Monolith that I energise with Chaos Energy and I have no need of the Warp. The Dark Words of Chaos shall be brought to even the most single minded of creatures.

Hive Mind 33
08-12-2007, 04:19
no i believe i was eldar and the populace of that world.

Slazton
08-12-2007, 04:23
no i believe i was eldar and the populace of that world.

I'm sorry, I really do not what you are implying. The Eldar had nothing to do with it. They inprisioned a Chaos Daemon Prince of Nurgle that required three pieces of an amulet.

The amulet was inbued with Nurgle's power. The Tyranids were trapped on a Space Hulk and the amulet infected them and made them sickly and diseased proving that in some versions of the fluff that Chaos can infect Tyranids.

azimaith
08-12-2007, 04:33
Please reference William King's Ragnar series. I believe Grey Hunter is the book I am after. The Tyranids were infected with a disease of Grandfather Nurgle.

A few tyranids on a ship does not a shadow in the warp make.



Chaos can and will manifest in the prescense of Tyranids. Why else could I summon Tzeentch daemons against them (previous Chaos Codex) and Doombolt those Gaunts back to hell?

One, because of game balance, the same reason why they manifest next to pariahs despite the abject incorrectness in the fluff. The doom bolt works because its warp energy, which isn't denied by tyranids. However you'd be making your doom bolts on 3D6 thanks to shadow in the warp and you'd never suffer a perils even with box cars of snake eyes due tot he same rule. Daemons do not attack psykers in the shadow.



The Shaodw of the Warp might be a hinderance, give me a Black Monolith that I energise with Chaos Energy and I have no need of the Warp. The Dark Words of Chaos shall be brought to even the most single minded of creatures.
The chaos energy is from the warp, how does that make you not need it.
Enough proselytizing.

Cosmocrat
08-12-2007, 14:20
The amulet was inbued with Nurgle's power. The Tyranids were trapped on a Space Hulk and the amulet infected them and made them sickly and diseased proving that in some versions of the fluff that Chaos can infect Tyranids.

There is a difference between an actual disease infecting them and real chaos corruption. The Tyranids are living things: of course they can be affected by disease: whatever it was Nurgle hit them with, they are now invulnerable to it I bet.

elvinltl
08-12-2007, 14:23
Don't they just eat them?

Kriegstreiber
08-12-2007, 16:01
The novel "Storm Of Iron" pictured a captured tyranid bio-spaceship the Iron Warriors used for transporting the Titans of Legio Mortis (e.g. Dies Irae).

The_Outsider
08-12-2007, 17:57
I like to think of it like this-

An alpha level psyker in the warp (according to the rulebook iirc) is like a supernova in the warp. Alpha level is the highest a human can reach.

Something like that is going to be pretty interesting for a warp being.

The hive mind however is probably akin to an entire star system going supernova.

Or to use a slightly better analogy.

An alpha level psyker is several tonnes of C-4, the hive mind is a nuclear bomb going off.

So the warp entitys avoid it as something like that is simply too powerful to approach.

Eetion
08-12-2007, 19:13
Where is there any reference to nids being resistant to chaos corruption? Is it purely theoretical or is there a source im unaware of?

Skyriss
08-12-2007, 19:36
I would think that it has a lot to do with the intensity of the Shadow. All instances of Tyranids being "corrupted" or otherwise on the weak end of the Warp-Tyranid relationship seem to involve only small amounts of Tyranids. A single Hive Ship succumbed to the Obliterator virus. A small group of Tyranids succumb to a Nurgle disease.

Small is obviously being used as a relative term here - "large" would be more akin to a swarm of a thousand Hive Ships, with untold millions of creatures each giving off their own signal. In that case I would think the tables are turned, and the Warp would be less able to influence the Tyranids because it is that that are influencing it to the greater degree. The greater the Tyranid presence, the darker the Shadow and so the harder it is for the Warp to be master.

kishvier
08-12-2007, 19:46
Lol, I think nids do exactally what they always do: SLOG!:D

Eetion
08-12-2007, 23:28
But maybe that could be that tyranids seem to be soulless, and for all extents and purposes beneath the notice of warp entities... rather than an incapability of chaos to corrupt.

Cosmocrat
08-12-2007, 23:37
The Tyranids aren't really soulless as much as they have ONE GIANT soul.

Commander Dante
08-12-2007, 23:51
thats a good explantation cosmocrat,

feintstar
08-12-2007, 23:56
I'm not entirely sure that that is clear. Certainly, Nids have the characteristics of a superorganism with the Hive mind providing the conduit for their concerted actions, but does that make one giant soul?

Or are they more like Ants, with Psychic phenomenon (albeit very powerful psychic phenomenon) acting in the place of pheremone trails?

After all, once the nodes are knocked out, all that's left is instinctive behaviour - which implies that Individual (non Hive Mind) nids are essentially animals. Do animals have any significant presence in the Warp? Probably just a little presence, magnified by the billion billion animals in every Hive Fleet, plus the overarching nexus/grid of interactions that is the Hive Mind, altogether putting up such a barrage of warp interactions that it causes both the shadow in the warp, and the formidable psychic defensive capabilities of the Hive Mind.

Seeing as different Fleets are known to have different Breeds, I wonder whether Different Fleets have different Minds, much like Imperial Commanders of different Segmenta. They co-operate, share information, but have the potential to turn against each other, even though they have not yet been seen to do so.

If all the above (mostly conjecture) is the case, then Tyranids would still be difficult for chaos to corrupt (as the Chaos powers seem to be the warp manifestations of Sentients, rather than Animals, and Hive Nodes are not likely to be corruptible, due to the extensive pervasiveness of their warp presence) but far from impossible.

On the other hand, The Tyranids essentially have, in the Hive Mind, their own living Chaos God, in which case, Like the Greenskins, the sentient Chaos Gods will have very little convertive effect. They are a Race already protected by a Warp Entity altogether more vast and racially specific than the Chaos Gods' influence would extend. Perhaps if there is a Chaos God of Animals, it might stand a chance of eating into the Tyranid Hive Mind's portfolio, but it simply isn't likely.

Wolf Scout Ewan
08-12-2007, 23:59
The power of Chaos isnt just something that can be trumped by another psychically powerful force.

You can destroy its minions in the physical world but everything touched by Chaos is tainted. There is no logic in Chaos (pun unintended) so the Hive mind can ignore it but it will eat away at it until eventually i is subsumed by the whsiper of evil.

The Hive mind and its creatures cannot be bargained with or tempted by promises of power, wealth or immortality. But the lure of Chaos isnt just about physical temptation. The corruption of Chaos wll be carried in the biomass of its minions.

Khorne will be pleased by the shedding of blood.
Tzeentch will use the power of change in the tyranids pursuit of perfect organisms.
Nurgle will taint the flesh and bone of the tyranids and use the hivemind to spread. Until the local hive node itself is consumed and then turned.
Slaanesh... oh how beautiful to taint the tyranids into new and exciting shapes!

Its 6 of one and half dozen of the other! The hive mind wont feel the taint of evil until long after they have consumed all that tainted matter! Chaos and Tyranids are both like infectious diseases in that they will both take over your body to use for its armies.

If the Tyrands attacked the Eye they be left running in circles slowly being tainted by the very space around them! Until the Hive Mind turns upon itself and its creatures amongst themselves. The laughter of bloodthirsty gods would be joined by another, but who be laughing at who? At this point the power of the Hive Mind would be squashed and left impotent. The powers of Chaos would then consume the mighty Maw.

Outside the Eye it would simply a matter of waiting for the taint to enter the spawning vats. It may take years or even millenia until that corruption grows strong enough to silence the mind and replace it with a deamon or worse.... corrupt the hive mind, mutating it, changing it until it becomes another Greater Deamon.

The Wars of the Flesh would take millenia but eventually Chaos would win.

Cosmocrat
09-12-2007, 00:01
The Tyranids are one giant living thing, composed of tiny living things into one superorganism.

That means that the Hive Mind is the brain of the Tyranid organism, as well as a sort of gigantic Psychic residue.

The whole synapse thing is a good point to bring up, but I think that is mostly just there for Rules reasons, so that the Tyranids can have some form of "leadership".

Games Workshop seems to like to stress the wholeness of the Tyranids race whenever it can, so I like to favor that interpretation. Every Hive Fleet is like a finger.

Cosmocrat
09-12-2007, 00:03
The Wars of the Flesh would take millenia but eventually Chaos would win.

No real evidence for this other than Chaos fanboy-ism.

The Hive Mind is an intergalactic superorganism. Its operations and intelligence are on a scale that surpasses any reference point that we have within the 40k universe. The Hive Mind is quite literally beyond the narrow machinations of any intra-galactic player.

The Hive Mind could no more be overcome by the Chaos Gods than a Dog could be wrestled to the ground by a flea.

Kandarin
09-12-2007, 00:19
Rather than argue on this, I'm just going to repost my previous thoughts on the subject, which got lost on the tail end of another thread:


I prefer a more balanced approach to the question of whether the Tyranids or Chaos are more powerful in the warp. Simply put, Chaos constantly tries to influence local warpspace to conform to itself. The Tyranid psychic effect (call it the Shadow in the Warp, the Hive Mind, the gestalt, whatever) does the same. When they meet, one always pushes and the other pushes back.

When Chaos is successful in gaining control of local warpspace, Tyranid synapse control breaks up and the agents of Chaos are able to influence or destroy the individual hive creatures at will. This happened in Storm of Iron, the Medusa V conclusion, and probably a few other places that I missed.

When the Tyranids are successful in gaining control of local warpspace, Chaos is crippled and daemons flee in terror. The agents of Chaos (not to mention all other psykers) must work harder to use Warp-based powers. There are references to this happening in all kinds of Tyranid fluff, and it's accounted for in the aforementioned tabletop rules.

So, which one wins the battle for the Warp, the Tyranids or Chaos? That depends on a number of factors:

* How many Tyranids are present?
* How organized are they?
* What proportion of these Tyranids are Synapse creatures?
* Is the Hive Mind actually trying to exert its power over the area, or is it just passing through?

* How many Daemons are present?
* How powerful are they (greater? lesser? Daemon Princes? Something else?)
* How competent and/or numerous are the local followers of Chaos?
* How important is the outcome of this battle to the Chaos Gods?

The outcome of any struggle in the Warp is dependent on the answers to these questions. Neither side must win by default.

Cosmocrat
09-12-2007, 03:30
While I think Kandarin made some really good points, I do not believe that the Chaos Gods are the equal of the Hive Mind in any sense.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-12-2007, 05:26
The Chaos Gods have enough problems with Gork and Mork(they avoid direct confrontations with them if they possibly can), and the Hive Mind is when you think about it rather similar to the Greenskinned brothers(Waagh and Synapse), excepty it appears to have a much heavier influence on Warp Space in general.

Chaos could certainly defeat individual Nid forces in real space, but there is nothing to suggest they can directly counter the Hive Mind. In fact, the psychic blankness it project might be the biggest problem for them, depending on how powerful it manifests.

Looking at game rules is fairly pointless in these discussions, as they only show a general idea about something, you can't use them to justify anything really. It seems to me that Tyranids are yet another player that can be fought on the ground and in space, but there isn't much anyone can do about the Warp presence of them.

One interesting question tho, what happens to the warp after a swarm leaves? I mean, the old invasion routes of Kraken and Behemoth, how is the warp there?

azimaith
09-12-2007, 05:34
But maybe that could be that tyranids seem to be soulless, and for all extents and purposes beneath the notice of warp entities... rather than an incapability of chaos to corrupt.
If they were beneath the notice of warp entities why do warp entities not attack psykers like they normally do in their presence. (shadow in the warp).

According to the BGB no one knows how such a large psychic presence exist and not draw clouds of demons, one theorized it was "because of the voids they have in the place of souls".

Commander Dante
09-12-2007, 05:39
can psychics not use powers in the table top game when fighting nids?

azimaith
09-12-2007, 06:30
They can, but with shadow in the warp they take a penalty and all perils of the warp are nullified.

R Man
09-12-2007, 07:16
The Hive Mind is an intergalactic superorganism. Its operations and intelligence are on a scale that surpasses any reference point that we have within the 40k universe. The Hive Mind is quite literally beyond the narrow machinations of any intra-galactic player.

The Hive Mind could no more be overcome by the Chaos Gods than a Dog could be wrestled to the ground by a flea.

No real evidence for this other than Tyranid Fanboyism.

There is no evidence that the hivemind is more powerful than the Chaos Gods and its power next to them is suspect. For a start the Tyranids have been fighting on the otherside of the galaxy from the eye which is the source of chaos power. Second of all the Chaos powers are not unified and this is a major drawback to their power. Often the strongest opposition to Chaos is Chaos. Who knows what they would be capable of if they actually set aside their own conflicts to deal with a threat. The hivemind is far away. Really far away. In a different galaxy far away.

However the fight would not be between these powers it would most likely be a fight between the followers and the grunts. Should Chaos be able to unite than they could win thanks to daemonic powers and the high power of Chaos Marines. If Chaos cannot unite than the Tyranids could take them piecemeal.

RexTalon
09-12-2007, 07:35
The hivemind is far away. Really far away. In a different galaxy far away.

Erm. No. We don't know exactly what it is or where it's coming from. We can measure it's effects, and we assume that there is some sort of head to the whole thing but the thing about the nids is that nobody knows for sure. There are lots of things that are assumed. People assume things about Chaos too, but nothing will ever be proven. For instance, I say Chaos CANNOT completely unite, because of it's very nature. Can I prove it, nope. Neither can you prove that it can.

In the mean time, Chaos will fight amongst themselves, as will every other faction until the great devourer comes for them all. And that's not fanboy talk, since I'm IG at heart. I just don't have faith that ANY faction would unite against the tyranids. Even though the Imperium are the only ones who've taken serious steps to abate their flow.

feintstar
09-12-2007, 13:53
My theory is still that the Necrons will take it to the Nids to protect their harvest. And due to the damage inflicted by those two behemoths upon each other, everyone else will be spared the nutty superpowerism of both the above. At least that's what the Farseers are trying to arrange...

Chaos couldn't even beat half of the newly made, wartorn Imperium during the Horus Heresy. To claim that it could go toe to toe with the Hive mind and win easily is just silly.

The Biomass of a single planet, turned into a single miltary force, is probably the same force and numbers as the Imperial armies for an entire segmentum. The Tyranids are absorbing the Biomass of whole planets at a rate of several per week. Now we know that the Nids have been attacking this galaxy for around 100 years. That's 5000 weeks, probably 10000 biologically active planets that have been absorbed entirely into the Tyranid superorganism. (And that's just this galaxy.) That's the equivcalent ground forces of 10 000 imperial segmenta. There are only a few hundred Imperial Segmenta in the galaxy, and Chaos can't seem to beat them, after 10 000 years at war.

We know that Chaos can't face the Imperial armies of a single segmentum without being matched shot for shot and being ground down by attrition - they rely on surprise and attacking soft targets to defeat Imperial forces. Hive fleets have no home base, and therefore always contain maximum possible force concentration - there is very little for Chaos to surprise, and no such thing as a soft target. Due to the maths of eating a planet and turning its entire ecosystem into warriors, Hive Fleets contain numbers that are simply too stupendous for any of the older, more conventional powers to match.

Further, Chaos can't even corrupt the Race of Orks in any real quantity, and that's just cos they're racially unique enough to have their own warp god presence. The Nids are racially far more unique than the Orks are, and have an Emperor-Like (but much much more powerful than he) Warp Presence (with Real Space bodies manifesting their own Chaos God) called the Hive Mind, protecting and absorbing the psychic essence of Tyranids as they die, becoming a more powerful warp entity as it does so.

And that's just the Tyranids in this galaxy. In this galaxy alone, they outnumber every other race by stupendous numbers, they are racially predisposed to being resistant to the lure of Chaos, they have their own God/Emperor-protective warp presence.

Then you add the fact that they are coming from several angles to attack this galaxy, coming from at least one other galaxy, and possibly attacking/devouring several other galaxies at the same time as the 40K universe is taking place. The numbers make any claim that the Chaos powers will defeat the Nids seem a petty boast. In the eye of terror itself, Chaos would put up a fight, but where the fleets go, the Warp is the Hive Mind. So really there's every reason to believe that the Daemons of Chaos would be matched in power by the shadow in the warp.

The only race that stands a chance is the Necrons. Why? Because versus virtually infinite numbers, the only other equivalent force is a force that cannot ever be properly destroyed.

Wolf Scout Ewan
09-12-2007, 16:08
Well said Feinstar! Makes good sense to me!

Cosmocrat
09-12-2007, 16:22
Feinstar is on the right track, except that you have to remember that two of the Tyranid Hive Fleets have already been destroyed. That mean that when the Hive Fleets are destroyed, the Bio-mass they created is destroyed with them.

The 'Nids are powerful - really really insanely powerful, but they aren't fielding 10,000 segmentum armies.

Dreachon
09-12-2007, 16:25
Behemoth was destroyed but not kraken, they crippled it's main tendrils but didn't destroy the hivefleet plus there's a lot of splinterfleets left from those battles.

Cosmocrat
09-12-2007, 16:26
Behemoth was destroyed but not kraken, they crippled it's main tendrils but didn't destroy the hivefleet plus there's a lot of splinterfleets left from those battles.

Yah, but that really has no effect on the plot. They have destroyed countless Kraken splinter fleets by now. Kraken is for all intents and purposes dead.

Mechanicus
09-12-2007, 16:54
I doubt that. The latest Tyranid codex, on page 26, shows a graph of Tyranid attacks per year by fleet, and the number of attacks by Kraken splinter fleets actually went up (to about 90 per year) towards 999.M41. I'm currently unaware of any evidence to contradict that.

Cosmocrat
09-12-2007, 17:04
Thats really not good storytelling.

boogaloo
09-12-2007, 17:28
ok. warhammer is a hobby, and as such we should look at it from a hobbyist perspective. HOW FREEKIN COOL WOULD CHAOS TYRANIDS BE! How good would biovores be at delivering daemons from the warp right on to your enemies heads. Or a daemonicaly enhanced carnifex (with daemonic flight possibly!?!?) or a tyrant with a daemon weapon.

as for the actual question at hand. I would see no reason why we can't have it both ways. I don't think that the hive mind is so much a hostile entity. It kinda just controls it's matter counter part. it's kind of an impermeable psychic wall that's dependent on it's biomass to keep on kickin, like psychic static of a thousand thousand buzzing bees in your brain making it real hard to focus on that doombolt, or mind war. if you kill all the tryanids the psychic pressence dissapates and goes away. at that point a few instinctive beasts or isolated synapse monsters may get posessed by chaos (hey if a tzeentch sorcerer can control the ever faithful emperors finest, he can't convince a tyrant that those daemons around him are his buddies and that he should work with them to consume the biomass of those guys over there firing a us with big guns) On the flip side i see no reason why a hive fleet couldn't consume daemonic matter and use it to strengthen their warp pressence. I also think that in a fictional world we should never have it completely one way or the other or else we cut ourselves off from some fun outcomes. ie. how cool would chaos tyranids be

Supremearchmarshal
09-12-2007, 17:58
Don't they just eat them?

That might be a problem - all those spikes and horns...

Harbinger
09-12-2007, 18:21
I don't think using the Horus Heresey is a good comparison for Chaos fighting Tyranids. First off, Chaos fought the entirety of the Imperium. To my knowledge no Hive Fleet has yet to fight all of the Imperium at once, and I doubt any of the Hive Fleets which have occured so far could do that. The threat of the Tyranids numbers comes from the theory that they are without limit. No one knows for sure.

Second, the HH laid waste to the Imperium, the likes of which has not been repeated. Of all the invasions and threats in the galaxy, Chaos remains the one that was closest to destroying the Imperium. The others either have not united or are still laying plans and foundations

Concerning numbers of Tyranids against Chaos again, Chaos cannot bring all of its numbers to bear. It is trapped in the Warp and requires a route out. Tyranids can bring their full numbers to bear. No one has an accurate count on either force. Just because the Tyranids are from another galaxy doesn't mean every inch of that galaxy is populated by Tyranids.

There is no evidence to show Chaos can corrupt Tyranids wholesale, but instances on smaller groups (numbers are not concrete to my knowledge) being corrupted have been printed. The post by Kandarin seems to sum it up best, with the strength of the Hive Mind in the area vs. Chaos. However, Chaos is the other warp presence that is not race specific in its converts. GW simply chooses to highlite the human, in particular CSM, followers. However, it has not been shown what happens when a corrupted Tyranid element comes back into contact with the Hive Mind. If it stays with Chaos, then that would say something about the relationship.

In short, I think Kandarin's post said it best, and I do not think that the Tyranids would simply "smack down" Chaos.

FrankManic
09-12-2007, 19:00
There is a quote in various source books about Nids being incapable of Good, Honest human hatred.

Orcs aren't really bothered by Chaos becase 1. They've got their own gods, 2. The Waagh is a powerful psychic phenomena that limits the abilities of Chaos to corrupt them and 3. They're neither human nor eldar.

The disturbance of the Warp is primarily linked to Human and Eldar emotion.

The Tau are rarely bothered by Chaos because they have little presence in the warp. They're all Blunt.

The Nids are rarely bothered by Chaos because they psychic power of their Hive Mind is at least as powerful as a chaos god, because the idividual creatures have no higher emotions or ambitions, and because the constant recycling of the hive organisms severely limits the ability of chaos to corrupt the Nids.

Lacking what we would recognize as emotion, the Nids aren't very interesting to Chaos.

Nids don't get angry or experience rage or battle lust, so Khorne has limited use for them.

Nids don't give the least care about pleasure or pain, so Slaanesh has no use for them.

Nids are a superorganism that reacts to infection as fast as it can spread. Nurgle may be interested in the Nids themselves as a kind of plague, but due to the nature of the Nids his plagues are unlikely to ever gain a foothold in the hive fleets. Plus, they eat all the humans, who are really the most interesting things to infect.

The Hive Mind is totally alien is a totally alien amalgamation of billions of individual bodies, ships, sensory organs, and sub minds. Tzeentch is probably very, very interested in the Hive Mind, because it's likely one of the few things in the Universe that can match him at his own level. It's an exclusive club consisting of the Hive Mind, the Emperor (maybe), The Deceiver, and Tzneetch. At the same time, though, the Hive Mind is totally alien and has goals that are totally inimical to Tzneetch. So Tzneetch most likely spends a deal of effort opposing the Nids, but can likely do little to directly control them.

GreenDracoBob
09-12-2007, 19:06
Reading this thread is like watching two young boys arguing that "My dad could beat up your dad!" Some points were made, though, so I suppose the thread is moving forward slowly.

But I will add my voice to those who say when push comes to shove, one will stand victorious, and it will be the one better prepared rather than the one that will always win.

That being said, the unbeatability of armies are quite prevalent in the 40k universe. Everybody falls to Chaos in the end. All are enslaved by the Necrons. None escapes the consumption by the Tyranids. The Orks can never truly be routed. Which leaves the unreachable Dark Eldar and the races of order. All of which could be argued as eventual winners in the galaxy (if they get really, really lucky).

ryng_sting
09-12-2007, 19:10
As Chief Librarian Tigurius himself said, the Tyranids have no souls; they have no emotions. There's nothing there for Chaos to feed off or influence. As far as I'm concerned, Tyranids are off-limits to Chaos.

Supremearchmarshal
09-12-2007, 19:31
As Chief Librarian Tigurius himself said, the Tyranids have no souls; they have no emotions. There's nothing there for Chaos to feed off or influence. As far as I'm concerned, Tyranids are off-limits to Chaos.

Chaos can corrupt machines, so having a soul isn't strictly necessary...

Cosmocrat
09-12-2007, 19:32
Chaos can corrupt machines, so having a soul isn't strictly necessary...

Machines have a soul...at least in 40k they do.

JOBusse
09-12-2007, 20:07
My friend and I had a discussion like this...basically, if the Nids eventually got to the eye of terror, what would happen?

We figure it would bog down like nobodie's business. Daemons can't truly be destroyed and nids are effectively numberless. I'd say in that particular battle of attrition, chaos wins eventually (emphasis on the eventually), but it would be millennia of fighting.

Cosmocrat
09-12-2007, 20:11
I think the Eye of Terror could withstand the force of one Hive Fleet, but I seriously doubt that ANYONE could withstand the force of more than one at a time.

Supremearchmarshal
09-12-2007, 21:01
Machines have a soul...at least in 40k they do.

If you believe what the AdMech says...

TheOverlord
09-12-2007, 21:05
Technically the Eye could withstand any amount of Fleets the Hive Mind can throw at them, if any of the Warp stories can be believed. Time, space, everything in the Eye is in turmoil, and nothing is what it seems. A million hive fleets could possibly enter the Warp and never leave, or they could come in and exit in a minute, or end up being one gigantic bio-titan the like which the Universe has never seen or ever see again. Who really knows?

Thats the kicker about GW. They like keeping you in the dark, this keeps the fanboys and kids arguing about 'who's race is bigger and will kick other said race in the face' and this in turn gives sales. In the, only GW wins.

But back on topic.

Chaos is a vast entity. Every Chaos God has powers unimaginable by mere mortals. They just tend not to focus it, rather they prefer to spread out their corruption, influence the mortals, so to speak. The Emperor was great, but one would think not even He can stand up face to face to the full aspect of a Chaos God with all his powers brought to bear on the upstart. The Hive Mind will probably come very close to facing off a Chaos God one to one, or maybe even surpassing all but Tzeentch in terms of psychic energies (maybe rivaling him, but when you're the master of all psychic powers in the universe, I highly doubt anyone can beat down the top dog.)

But for all we know, Tyranids could very well be a physical manifestation of Chaos itself? Not some warp spawned daemon or corrupted traitor, but actually a by-product of Chaos residue leaking off in some off-galaxy somewhere?

That would be cool.

So the only question really is this. Who will win, the Tyranids, or the Followers of Chaos, the mortal scum? Probably the Nids', but so far they haven't yet.

R Man
09-12-2007, 21:09
Erm. No. We don't know exactly what it is or where it's coming from. We can measure it's effects, and we assume that there is some sort of head to the whole thing but the thing about the nids is that nobody knows for sure. There are lots of things that are assumed.

I presumed it was in another galaxy because it didn't make sense that it would be in a random part of deep space. Unless it was going somewhere. Then it probably would have to go through deep space.


Chaos couldn't even beat half of the newly made, wartorn Imperium during the Horus Heresy. To claim that it could go toe to toe with the Hive mind and win easily is just silly.

This has already been countered but when Horus rebelled he was fighing a much more dynamic Imperium which was much more capable of mobilsing all its forces. The Tyranids have not.


The Tyranids are absorbing the Biomass of whole planets at a rate of several per week. Now we know that the Nids have been attacking this galaxy for around 100 years. That's 5000 weeks, probably 10000 biologically active planets that have been absorbed entirely into the Tyranid superorganism. (And that's just this galaxy.) That's the equivcalent ground forces of 10 000 imperial segmenta.

It could easily be that the source of Tyranid numbers rests soley on what they pirate from this galaxy. The incoming hivefleets might be restricted to a few thousand organisms until they start devouring.


We know that Chaos can't face the Imperial armies of a single segmentum without being matched shot for shot and being ground down by attrition - they rely on surprise and attacking soft targets to defeat Imperial forces.

Chaos is a raider force because it's fragmented, it is no indication of power. A rebel Marine Chapter is not linked to another rebel Marine Chapter. To call them as part of the same force is not very acurate. Chaos only becomes a unified force if a powerful figure can unite them such as Abbadon and when they do unite the Imperium poures everything it has into Cadia.


And that's just the Tyranids in this galaxy. In this galaxy alone, they outnumber every other race by stupendous numbers, they are racially predisposed to being resistant to the lure of Chaos, they have their own God/Emperor-protective warp presence.

The Tyranids in the Milky Way do not outnumber every race. Orks and Humans far outnumber Leviathan and what is left of Kraken. It could also be that Leviathan is the last hive fleet and the Tyraninds are a dying race.


the eye of terror itself, Chaos would put up a fight, but where the fleets go, the Warp is the Hive Mind. So really there's every reason to believe that the Daemons of Chaos would be matched in power by the shadow in the warp.

Do you have any proof? Or are you just saying that?

Behomoth was destroyed at Macragg and it was probably the largest hive fleet (Maybe not though) and it was beaten by the Ultramarines and a few succesor chapters plus PDF. Now if it was up against a whole legion backed up by Traitor Guardmen and mutants how would it fair? This is withot daemons too.


Lacking what we would recognize as emotion, the Nids aren't very interesting to Chaos.

Nids don't get angry or experience rage or battle lust, so Khorne has limited use for them.

Nids don't give the least care about pleasure or pain, so Slaanesh has no use for them.

What about the worshipper fighting them? Surely when a Berserker sees the Tryaninds and says "I've had it with the Mother <Expletive deleted> Bugs on this Mother <Expletive Deleted> Hive Ship!" Khorne will be pleased. When illness from Tyraninds begins to work won't Nurgle jump on the opportunity to score some followers?

silence
09-12-2007, 23:03
It has been said before that in a 50K universe that the Necrons and Tyranids would be locked in an eternal war and that the other races would be reduced to mior fringe strongholds.

As to the original question, I agree that chaos can corrupt small amounts of tyranids to a lesser or greater extent but due to a certain lack of free will on the Tyranids part would never be able to corrupt the race as a whole, and the hive mind is probably too vast to be corrupted. Also if the chaos gods where all powerful then why have they never corrupted the C'tan, Orcs or necrons themselves in any great numbers?

Cosmocrat
09-12-2007, 23:12
It has been said before that in a 50K universe that the Necrons and Tyranids would be locked in an eternal war and that the other races would be reduced to mior fringe strongholds.


I doubt that. The Imperium isn't going anywhere, and the Orks are going to be around for a long time, unless the Tyranids finally win and wipe them all out.

I tend not to buy into the whole "teh tearanids and necorns will be teh only races left!!!1111oneeleven!!1" thing. The Imperium is way too big and has survived its share of crazy crap in its time.

Terra is too well defended to be taken by any force smaller than a multiple Hive Fleet attack, and the Necrons are being chipped away at - already having had a few of their Tombworlds destroyed.

Lauren_Star
09-12-2007, 23:25
i agree with cosmocrat here.
The Imperium is a huge force as are the Orks.
And while they *could* be wiped out, it would be just as likely for the Necrons to be eventually, though i think that all are highly unlikely..
(then how would GW make its money? :P)

icegreentea
10-12-2007, 00:21
wasn't there a splinter fleet that ended up in the eye of terror and came out all mutated and what not?

Ben_Jacobs12
10-12-2007, 09:26
What about Tyranid splinter fleets that have lost 'contact' with the hive mind?

Could they be corrupted?

Skyriss
10-12-2007, 12:18
What about Tyranid splinter fleets that have lost 'contact' with the hive mind?

Could they be corrupted?

A splinter fleet cannot "lose contact" with the Hive Mind per se. All Tyranids are psychic. When you get several of them together, their psychic signatures flow together. The bigger the group, the bigger the resulting psychic whirlie-swirlie-thing. This is both the Hive Mind and the Shadow in the Warp.

There seems to be a "critical mass" of individual Tyranid psychics required to get the "cuts off communication to entire star systems and drives Daemons in the Warp insane and screaming to get away" effect. Sort of like increasing noise levels to the point where eventually they will shatter glass, then stone and so on. When you have a certain number of Tyranids talking to each other in the Warp, it becomes so loud that it blocks everything else out.

This is of course a digression. As far as Tyranids being "corrupted" by a Warp Entity or Warp Power being controlled by another being (e.g. the Chaos Sorceror mentioned some posts back), it would depend on the relative adeptness of the Warp presence/power versus the noise level of the Tyranids. More Tyranids = more noise. More noise = the Warp becomes more choked with Tyranid talk, and anything that cannot pierce that noise level is powerless.

So going back to the "Tyranids in the Eye of Terror" issue. A single Tyranid in the Eye would be almost as much a plaything of the Chaos Powers as a Human or an Eldar (obviously slightly less so, or differently so owing to the different nature of the Tyranids, their lack of emotion and the fact that currently the Warp Powers are being shaped by and relate to emotion). None the less, a single Tyranid would no doubt be mutated, infected with Nurlges Rot or simply very very confused.

A single Hive Ship would generate a small Shadow in its area - no doubt interfering with the Eye in that area to a small degree and warding away smaller, weaker Warp Powers. A Daemonic Legion would most likely be able to overpower it, largely due to the Warp-based might of the bigger, nastier Daemons relative to the strength of the Shadow. This is my theory on why the Iron Warriors were able to infect a single Hive Ship with the Obliterator Virus -one ship has a very small Shadow, and much lighter Warp based warding, and so is very susceptible to Warp-effects like the Virus.

A small Splinter Fleet (twenty-fifty ships) would be more resilient to the effects of the Warp, and with that many Tyranids talking to each other in the Warp I doubt many of the marauding Warp entities would be capable of approaching the Fleet. This is where the mortal worshippers of Chaos would come in - the more they damage the Fleet the weaker the Shadow becomes and the easier Daemons and such find it to join the fray.

If Hive Fleet Leviathan, all of Hive Fleet Leviathan, were to be condensed down into a single mass of Tyranids and suddenly appeared in front of the Eye of Terror then it's hard to imagine what would actually happen. That would be enough Tyranids to blanket much of an entire Segmentum in the Shadow. Take a moment to consider just how much space that is. Put them all in the same location and nothing would be able to pierce the Shadow. The Daemons of the Eye of Terror would be sent fleeing in terror for their very existence, and any psyker trying to tap into the Warp nearby would probably 'eadbang in an instant. Of course, this is about as likely to actually happen as Khorne is the manifest in front of the Golden Throne and ask for the Emperor's autograph after realising the the Emperor is "well killy".

Besides, the Tyranids are so far away from the Eye at the moment that only tiny Splinter Fleets could possibly have reached that far. In such small numbers, Chaos would likely have a very good crack at mutating, if not actually corrpting (again, if such a thing is possible for "Chaos" - the Warp, sure, but Chaos as we know it feeds off of and relates to emotion, of which the Tyranids have none, hence mutation but not Tzeentch worshipping Zoanthropes).

The answer to the question depends on the numbers of the Tyranids versus the strength of a given Warp entity/user.

izandral
10-12-2007, 13:08
if a huge amount of tyranids (1 or 2 full power hive fleet) where to get near the eye of terror i guess it could actually close the eye of terror

Skyriss
10-12-2007, 14:37
if a huge amount of tyranids (1 or 2 full power hive fleet) where to get near the eye of terror i guess it could actually close the eye of terror

Probably not close it. Just change it so that instead of a daemon-filled hellhole of insanity and painful doom it is a psychic typhoon of chittering Tyranid minds in which nothing else can exist.

Interestingly, I wonder what would happen when the Tyranids moved on? Would the Eye return to normal? Or would we be left with a wonderful area of calm, tranquil Warp Space where Imperial holiday-makers can go on their weekends off, and enjoy the wonders of being able to conjure up alcoholic drinks with little umbrellas in them by mere thought? No doubt eventually giving rise to the Chaos God of Relaxation and Sun-Worship, Relexxolar!

Industrial Propaganda
10-12-2007, 16:12
What about Tyranid splinter fleets that have lost 'contact' with the hive mind?

Could they be corrupted?

Of course they can be corrupted.

Some Iron Warriors use a big Tyranid space ship to transport and travel across the galaxy.

Maybe they use this chaotic techno virus to bring tyranids to slaves of the darkness.

etancross
10-12-2007, 18:33
The power of Chaos isnt just something that can be trumped by another psychically powerful force.

You can destroy its minions in the physical world but everything touched by Chaos is tainted. There is no logic in Chaos (pun unintended) so the Hive mind can ignore it but it will eat away at it until eventually i is subsumed by the whsiper of evil.

The Hive mind and its creatures cannot be bargained with or tempted by promises of power, wealth or immortality. But the lure of Chaos isnt just about physical temptation. The corruption of Chaos wll be carried in the biomass of its minions.

Khorne will be pleased by the shedding of blood.
Tzeentch will use the power of change in the tyranids pursuit of perfect organisms.
Nurgle will taint the flesh and bone of the tyranids and use the hivemind to spread. Until the local hive node itself is consumed and then turned.
Slaanesh... oh how beautiful to taint the tyranids into new and exciting shapes!

Its 6 of one and half dozen of the other! The hive mind wont feel the taint of evil until long after they have consumed all that tainted matter! Chaos and Tyranids are both like infectious diseases in that they will both take over your body to use for its armies.

If the Tyrands attacked the Eye they be left running in circles slowly being tainted by the very space around them! Until the Hive Mind turns upon itself and its creatures amongst themselves. The laughter of bloodthirsty gods would be joined by another, but who be laughing at who? At this point the power of the Hive Mind would be squashed and left impotent. The powers of Chaos would then consume the mighty Maw.

Outside the Eye it would simply a matter of waiting for the taint to enter the spawning vats. It may take years or even millenia until that corruption grows strong enough to silence the mind and replace it with a deamon or worse.... corrupt the hive mind, mutating it, changing it until it becomes another Greater Deamon.

The Wars of the Flesh would take millenia but eventually Chaos would win.


WOW!! that was just a fantastic read! 2 thumbs up WAAAY UP!!

etancross
10-12-2007, 18:40
My theory is still that the Necrons will take it to the Nids to protect their harvest. And due to the damage inflicted by those two behemoths upon each other, everyone else will be spared the nutty superpowerism of both the above. At least that's what the Farseers are trying to arrange...

Chaos couldn't even beat half of the newly made, wartorn Imperium during the Horus Heresy. To claim that it could go toe to toe with the Hive mind and win easily is just silly.

The Biomass of a single planet, turned into a single miltary force, is probably the same force and numbers as the Imperial armies for an entire segmentum. The Tyranids are absorbing the Biomass of whole planets at a rate of several per week. Now we know that the Nids have been attacking this galaxy for around 100 years. That's 5000 weeks, probably 10000 biologically active planets that have been absorbed entirely into the Tyranid superorganism. (And that's just this galaxy.) That's the equivcalent ground forces of 10 000 imperial segmenta. There are only a few hundred Imperial Segmenta in the galaxy, and Chaos can't seem to beat them, after 10 000 years at war.

We know that Chaos can't face the Imperial armies of a single segmentum without being matched shot for shot and being ground down by attrition - they rely on surprise and attacking soft targets to defeat Imperial forces. Hive fleets have no home base, and therefore always contain maximum possible force concentration - there is very little for Chaos to surprise, and no such thing as a soft target. Due to the maths of eating a planet and turning its entire ecosystem into warriors, Hive Fleets contain numbers that are simply too stupendous for any of the older, more conventional powers to match.

Further, Chaos can't even corrupt the Race of Orks in any real quantity, and that's just cos they're racially unique enough to have their own warp god presence. The Nids are racially far more unique than the Orks are, and have an Emperor-Like (but much much more powerful than he) Warp Presence (with Real Space bodies manifesting their own Chaos God) called the Hive Mind, protecting and absorbing the psychic essence of Tyranids as they die, becoming a more powerful warp entity as it does so.

And that's just the Tyranids in this galaxy. In this galaxy alone, they outnumber every other race by stupendous numbers, they are racially predisposed to being resistant to the lure of Chaos, they have their own God/Emperor-protective warp presence.

Then you add the fact that they are coming from several angles to attack this galaxy, coming from at least one other galaxy, and possibly attacking/devouring several other galaxies at the same time as the 40K universe is taking place. The numbers make any claim that the Chaos powers will defeat the Nids seem a petty boast. In the eye of terror itself, Chaos would put up a fight, but where the fleets go, the Warp is the Hive Mind. So really there's every reason to believe that the Daemons of Chaos would be matched in power by the shadow in the warp.

The only race that stands a chance is the Necrons. Why? Because versus virtually infinite numbers, the only other equivalent force is a force that cannot ever be properly destroyed.


I call BS, where does it say the Hive Mind is a warp entity, or a god? Ive never seen that and it sounds like a thory.

Hive Mind 33
10-12-2007, 21:32
The Tyranids in the Milky Way do not outnumber every race. Orks and Humans far outnumber Leviathan and what is left of Kraken. It could also be that Leviathan is the last hive fleet and the Tyraninds are a dying race.


Dropped the ball. If they were a dying race they would not send wave after wave of troops to die.
From GW's site "The first tendrils of the Great Devourer, a single entity stretching over light years of space and controlled by the immortal Hive Mind, have probed our galaxy and found it rich in prey." plus in the nid codex it says the imperium would have to mobilze 500% to fight the a FUll power hive fleet.

R Man
10-12-2007, 22:34
Dropped the ball. If they were a dying race they would not send wave after wave of troops to die.

Because that's the way Tyranids fight. It doesn't matter how many they loose as long as they win. If they loose their hosed. If they win they absorb everything they can. The Tyranid style is best described as 'going for broke' rather than human/bug wave.


From GW's site "The first tendrils of the Great Devourer, a single entity stretching over light years of space and controlled by the immortal Hive Mind, have probed our galaxy and found it rich in prey." plus in the nid codex it says the imperium would have to mobilze 500% to fight the a FUll power hive fleet.

And every Chaos Codex says the Black Crusades brink Abbadon closer to victory. Every codex, WD article or GW web page makes the subject army out to be something more than it is.

Hive Mind 33
11-12-2007, 03:56
Because that's the way Tyranids fight. It doesn't matter how many they loose as long as they win. If they loose their hosed. If they win they absorb everything they can. The Tyranid style is best described as 'going for broke' rather than human/bug wave.



And every Chaos Codex says the Black Crusades brink Abbadon closer to victory. Every codex, WD article or GW web page makes the subject army out to be something more than it is.

the Hive Mind looks for effective ways to use materials. Going for broke is a plain horrible use of materials. You only throw wave after wave of guys at something if you have the numbers. Russia did it in World War 2 that had the man power so they could keep throwing men at the enemy. Plus "The first tendrils of the Great Devourer." really puts it in perspective of they have alot more were that came from.

He does he has a foot hold on Cadia, and black stone fortresses each one he gains something new.

Drasanil
11-12-2007, 05:14
Everyone knows Tyranids will at some point accidently absorb gretchin DNA and turn into weedy little gits that can be dominated by a common 10 year old:D

Failling that it's fairly obvious they aren't what they're cracked up to be, that would just make for a very very boring backround, same as chaos (or Necrons take your pick) being the all conquering doom of the galaxy.

Every one knows that GW over-hypes armies to make them seem "supa l33t" and "3xtra sh1ny" so that little Timmy will harass his parents extra hard to get a few more models. Why do you think space marines are ever so popular?

R Man
11-12-2007, 09:09
the Hive Mind looks for effective ways to use materials.

No it doesn't. The Hivemind goes with what works. It doesn't matter how eficient the plan is so long as it works.


Going for broke is a plain horrible use of materials. You only throw wave after wave of guys at something if you have the numbers.

Going for broke means that they throw everything they have into an attack. Often is is a sign of desperation. Remember that losses mean nothing if the Tyranids win. The 'Nids are poorly suited to attritional warfare and all their victories are swift and attacks intense. They are not suited to a long slow grind.


Russia did it in World War 2 that had the man power so they could keep throwing men at the enemy

Actually that's not true. The Soviet Union was able to turn the tide thanks to its methods of production, tenacity deterimation, their skill at deception and a growth of strategic and tactical doctrine. Not to mention weather. This should not be about WW2 but you should know your wars and how they were actually fought before using them as examples. If you want to see how good the Red Army can be look up: Battle of Kursk and Operation Bagration.


Plus "The first tendrils of the Great Devourer." really puts it in perspective of they have alot more were that came from.

Which is really more of a Hyperbole than any real evidence.


He does he has a foot hold on Cadia, and black stone fortresses each one he gains something new.

And yet nothing's really changed. The so called 'foothold on Cadia' is more like a group of marines who got left behind when everyone else went home. It's hardly shattering the Imperium and once again descriptions of the foothold will be overdone to save face for Chaos.

Scythe
11-12-2007, 11:47
WOW!! that was just a fantastic read! 2 thumbs up WAAAY UP!!



I call BS, where does it say the Hive Mind is a warp entity, or a god? Ive never seen that and it sounds like a thory.

Warning... Chaos fanboy alert... :rolleyes:


Allright, it might be wise to take a little distance from the subject, and look at it as objectively as possible. From the Liber Chaotica books, we bascially learned that Chaos gods are warp entities, shaped from the emotions of humans (and eldar). The 4 mayor chaos gods existed long before humans came to the playing field, but in their current from, they are mainly shaped by human emotions and thoughts, mainly because there are so many of them. Likewise, the Orks have their own warp entities, Gork and Mork, also shaped by the reflections of emotions of Orks in the warp. They are different entities, as an Orks mind process and thoughts is radically different from a humans or Eldars. In fact, due Orks being different, they have their own warp entities, or gods. They just care about different things in a different way as humans do, and this gives the human Chaos gods little influence over them. Tyranids are just like that, only even more alien as Orks are to humans. The hive mind is their own warp entity, formed by the reflection in the warp of every Tyranid (as supported in various Tyranid codexes).

So, where does this lead us? Basically, Chaos gods, Ork gods and the Hive Mind are extremely similar. They all draw their power (and their consiousness) directly from their followers. In other words: to a limited level, the power of a warp entity can be meassured by the collective power of the warp reflections of its followers, or creatures sharing the same thoughts/ideals. Wether this makes one side stronger as the other is up to you to decide.

I would like to make a side note on corruption tough. As a Tyranid does not share the same thoughts and emotions (if it does at all, but I am not going into that one here) as a human does, it cannot be 'corrupted' by a Chaos god in the sense that a human can. A Tyranid will not worthship a Chaos god, and its emotions will also not empower a Chaos god. 'Infected' would be a better term to describe the examples mentioned. Tyranids are still creatures, so they can be affected by anything, like a virus or mutation, as normal. Chaos is thus able to control Tyranid creatures like they could control any other creature, but there is not really any indication of 'corruption of the soul'.

Hive Mind 33
11-12-2007, 14:19
Yeah now where is that supported. Everything i have read says that the Hie Mind is an actual organism. And Nids do not have emotions, nor souls which is supported by the codex.

Iracundus
11-12-2007, 14:32
You're mistaken there. The Hive Mind is the collective consciousness of the entire Tyranid race. It is not a single physical organism. As a distributed consciousness that is precisely why it is immortal. Short of wiping out every Tyranid in existence, you can't kill it, though you can weaken its local presence and influence by knocking out the local synapse creatures.

Scythe
11-12-2007, 14:39
Exactly. Just like Chaos gods, infact. Warp entities are sustained by creatures with warp prescence who 'tune in' which each other. Just like Khorne is a representation of anger (amongst others) in humans and other creatures, is the Hive Mind a representation of 'being a Tyranid', tuned to all the sensations felt and shared by Tyranid creatures (I am keeping this vague on purpose, as a Tyranids view of the world is so completely different from a humans).

Skyriss
11-12-2007, 15:27
Exactly. Just like Chaos gods, infact. Warp entities are sustained by creatures with warp prescence who 'tune in' which each other. Just like Khorne is a representation of anger (amongst others) in humans and other creatures, is the Hive Mind a representation of 'being a Tyranid', tuned to all the sensations felt and shared by Tyranid creatures (I am keeping this vague on purpose, as a Tyranids view of the world is so completely different from a humans).

There was a lot of fluff from the creator of Hive Fleet Harbinger about how the "Hive Mind" isn't so much a reflection of the Tyranids in the Warp as it is the amalgamation of all the Tyranid "voices" communicating with each other psychically, and then out of that hurricane of chittering a greater entity arises. It's not indirectly created by them being Tyranids, but rather it exists as a part of them. Very "Tyranid"y.

Of course, that is not really GW cannon. Or is it (given GW's 3rd ed. trend of picking up most of the Harbinger fluff and sticking it into WD and the 3rd ed Codex)?

Commander Dante
11-12-2007, 19:31
its like the chaos theory of fish in a school

jfrazell
11-12-2007, 19:59
Interestingly, I wonder what would happen when the Tyranids moved on? Would the Eye return to normal? Or would we be left with a wonderful area of calm, tranquil Warp Space where Imperial holiday-makers can go on their weekends off, and enjoy the wonders of being able to conjure up alcoholic drinks with little umbrellas in them by mere thought? No doubt eventually giving rise to the Chaos God of Relaxation and Sun-Worship, Relexxolar!

Thats choice

DrDoom
11-12-2007, 22:15
As a guess: they try to eat us. Nids that eat Daemons prolly have a bad taste in their mouths and nothing to show for it. Rather like when my girlfriend cooks.

feintstar
12-12-2007, 13:42
Just by virtue of defending some of my earlier points:

I claimed that Tyranids in the Galaxy alone outnumber the other races. I meant this only in terms of war material. In terms of civilian population/unstructured tribal military, plus organized military, humans and Orks and possibly even Eldar may outnumber the Nids. However, in terms of armed forces, because of the 100% combatant nature of the Tyranids, they outnumber any of their foes with forces harvested from this galaxy alone. There was the absolutely true rebuttal that some of the Tyranid fleets have been destroyed, and with them all of the biomass they consumed. However, Behemoth was often claimed in fluff to be a mere scouting fleet, inconsequentially small to the vastness of the Hive Mind. Kraken is more substantial, but not entirely defeated, due to its insidious advance, while Leviathan is still to be truly engaged. Therefore, we could make the bold conjecture that say, fully one half of all Tyranids in the galaxy have been destroyed. That still leaves 5000 imperial segmenta worth of Tyranids left.

Another rebuttal placed the Horus Heresy parallel was inappropriate, due to the vigor and youth of the Imperium at that time. While this may be the case, I might also point out that much of the Imperium at that stage was new conquest, barely recovering from the damage inflicted during the great crusade. The Imperium had the Emperor and the Primarchs, you may point out. I reply that Chaos had Horus, and also had Primarchs who were blessed by the Dark Gods. These creatures are still around after the Heresy, and are vastly more powerful than anything in the Imperium, and yet the Imperium stood firm for 10 000 years.

Another Rebuttal aims at disputing the Hive Mind's god status. This is a reasonable argument, as what little we know of the Hive Mind is mostly conjecture, particularly relative to the Chaos Gods. However, I would like to make a few observations about the nature of Gods as a group in the 40K universe.
1. They are dependent on followers in the material universe, living AND dead.
2. They affect the Warp directly, creating warp storms, warp realspace overlaps, and generally playing with shipping - in some sense they ARE the warp wherever they are strongest
3. They fry the brains of psykers and damage astropathic commnications when it suits them.
The Hive Mind certainly abides by all these defining characteristics, but the claim is that this is the result of large scale use of otherwise normal psychic phenomenon, rather than God Like powers of a realized warp entity.
However: The Eldar who brought about the Fall did not lose their souls to become one with the existing Gods of Khorne, Nurgle of Tzeentch. Their souls coalesced into an entity specific to their nature. Likewise, Orkish warp presences amalgamate into their own warp entities, who are the match of the other Chaos Gods. There is no reason to believe that Tyranid essences would not do the same in the warp, as their souls are, if anything, More unique than those of Eldar or Orks.

So why should the Hive Mind be a specifically psychic entity with no God powers? On the contrary, as i stated before, due to the arguments above, there is every reason to believe that the Hive Mind IS a Warp God in its own right, at least to the extent that the Emperor is, but more probably far greater than the Emperor, simply by virtue of intergalactic scale.

ZigZagMan
14-12-2007, 03:21
There are old rules in rogue trader for Chaos infused genestealer patriarchs (as well as ork psychers with greater daemons in them), who turn to chaos worship as a means to an end.
Genestealers themselves were also said to have their own separate presence in the warp ( aka a genestealer mini-god?)
So hence there is presidence that Tyranids can be infected and mutated by chaos. Even if it IS old rules.