PDA

View Full Version : A couple basic HE questions



Settler
09-12-2007, 14:26
Ok, if these are too obvious, try not to get annoyed...

Regarding HE

1. A Prince has an Amulet of Light. Is the Dragon he is riding affected?

2. Can non-Mages carry dispell scrolls, like HE special unit champions?

Thanks for shedding the light

Atrahasis
09-12-2007, 16:13
1. The Amulet affects the bearer and the unit he is with. It can be argued that a Dragon is neither, but I think most would accept that the amulet should encompass mounts as well.

2. No. Only wizards can carry arcane items.

Settler
09-12-2007, 16:48
Thanks Atrahasis for the clarification

Fate
09-12-2007, 21:45
Actually, everything in warhammer is a unit, so a dragon with a character forms a unit encopassed by 2 models, one of them being a mount which however is part of the unit so it gains the magic attacks. Not much to argue there.

And yes, only scrolls for the magi.

Atrahasis
09-12-2007, 22:50
No, the character and dragon is a unit; the dragon is not a unit he is with.


And yes, only scrolls for the magi.So mages can only take scrolls?

Fate
10-12-2007, 00:58
No, the mages are the only who can take the dispel scrolls.

Just because tthe dragon is mount it doesn't mean that it can't be counted as the unit the character is with. You're thinking while understandable takes base of the inability for the character to leave the unit (dragon). However that would be a flawed line of thought as a unit champion for the dragon princes can take the amulet of light giving him and the unit he is with the magical attacks while there is still the inability to leave the unit (also the horses get magical attacks as well, they are part of the unit after all).

There is no such rule clarification as far as i know, however i feel one should be made as to better understand this: The Character and the unit he's with = The Character and anything/anyone he's with.

Chicago Slim
10-12-2007, 02:24
Fate, the champion of a unit of dragon princes is explicitly NOT a character, but a rank-and-file member of his unit, who has a short list of rules for which he behaves much like a character (this is very clear in the basic rule book, and was discussed at some length in a recent thread on this forum).

A character's mount may restrict him from joining units (particularly when riding flyers or chariots), but that isn't relevant to the discussion at hand, really: whenever he's not part of a unit, an independent character is considered to be a unit of one model. This is true whether he's mounted, or on foot (and, if he's mounted, then he and his mount are considered one model).

I mean, a quick count of the number of bases should be enough to convince you: a character on a monster has one base, and is thus one model...

It kind of works out the same, anyway: character + mount = unit. It's just the causality that you have a bit munged...

Atrahasis
10-12-2007, 08:21
Just because tthe dragon is mount it doesn't mean that it can't be counted as the unit the character is with.Characters explicitly cannot join monsters. The character and dragon are a unit, the dragon is not a unit the character has joined.

The dragon is not the bearer of the item; the character is. If mounts are taken to be included in "bearer" then all sorts of magical items just got a massive boost.

So, the dragon is neither unit joined nor bearer, and so strictly speaking should not have magical attacks. As I say, however, there are few who would play it that way.

DeathlessDraich
10-12-2007, 08:58
:p
The epitome of rules trivialisation (I don't like the word lawyering, having failed the Bar exams) is when a) "Units he is with" , b) "units he has joined" and c)"the unit he is part of" is being scrutinised with a fine tooth comb especially when the rules already state that (a) -> (c) and (b)->(c).
:D

Fate
10-12-2007, 12:26
The mount only beneficts from item which say that affects the bearer and the mount and items that say that affects the him and the unit with him.

Also the rules don't state that is a unit joined by the character but a unit with the character, but the character and the dragon form a unit and can be assumed that the dragon is part of the units, they are 2 diferent models which even if one of them is slain, the other can continue to play, like i said there is in fact an inability for them to willingly go diferent ways in the battlefield however that won't stop from making the rules apply.

Chicago Slim. The unit champions are characters for all effects, the only diference is that they count as part of the unit to take wounds and that they can't leave the unit, but otherwise they count as characters yes. The dragon princes chapion can take 25 points of magic items so he can take the amulet of light, granting himself and the unit he is with the magical attacks.

Also rules lawyering is fun! :p

Atrahasis
10-12-2007, 12:38
The unit champions are characters for all effects,Poppycock.

Champions are treated as characters for challenges and allocation of shooting, nothing else. They are not characters.

Borthcollective
10-12-2007, 13:51
Poppycock.

Champions are treated as characters for challenges and allocation of shooting, nothing else. They are not characters.

If you kill a whole front rank of guys you still keep the champion in tact though right? Unless you specifically allocated attacks that wound them.

Chicago Slim
10-12-2007, 17:31
Borth: Your suggestion is not quite right. There's two ways, spelled out in the basic rule book, to kill a unit champion:
1) The enemy deals enough wounds targeted specifically at the champion model to kill it
2) The deals enough wounds to exceed the number of other eligible rank-and-file models. (ie, you kill the entire unit).

So, some hypotheticals:

A unit of 15 swordsmen, 5 wide, take 7 wounds, none of them targeted at the champion. 7 models are removed from the back ranks. The standard bearer and musician are left in place, because we assume that a back-ranker puts up the equipment as he steps up. The champion is left in place, because he wasn't targetted. The champion strikes back, but no other swordsmen do.

A different unit of 8 wardancers takes 9 wounds, none of them directed at the unit champion. All 8 wardancers, including the champion, are removed.

Fate
11-12-2007, 01:23
You do are right in what you say chicago slim, but he only dies if the total wounds equals or exceds the unit models.

However the champion do is a character, it counts as a character in combat and for shothing purposes as well. Thus he is a character which can have the amulet of light and for all effects, he and the unit get magical attacks.
Anyway i think we all agree that a unit champion does get and give the magical attacks to the unit.

The main question still is the dragon gets is attacks. Is not about if one can say most will let you do it, but to be able to say that it is either completly illegal or behind any doubt legal.

Nurgling Chieftain
11-12-2007, 02:10
Since the argument against the dragon getting magical attacks relies on it not being "with" the character, I'd say the dragon gets the benefit, on the principle that that's splitting a hair that shouldn't be split.

Jonke
11-12-2007, 02:22
However the champion do is a character, it counts as a character in combat and for shothing purposes as well.

You should read p. 81 of the rule book.

Settler
11-12-2007, 13:45
Since the argument against the dragon getting magical attacks relies on it not being "with" the character, I'd say the dragon gets the benefit, on the principle that that's splitting a hair that shouldn't be split.

Seems like Nurgling Chieftain hit the nail on the head :cool:
We can reasonably assume that a mount gaining the magical attacks is something the powers that be intended, but hadn't accounted for in the semantics so this could be considered covered by the "common sense" rule.

Cheers