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Ymir
09-12-2007, 20:18
Playing Tomb Kings, I've found i suck at judging charge distances, but I'm somehow really, really good at hitting stuff with the catapult.

In fact, I love the catapult. War Machines are really, really fun.

So I want to start a Dwarf army, with -a lot- of War Machines. I'm thinking along the lines of just building a big line of them and a bunch of Quarrellers and such, waiting for the enemy to come to me, hopefully a lot thinned out by the fire. I'm not going to spam out Thunderers, though.

What's bothering me is, I've heard Dwarf gun lines are really cheesy, and maybe even boring to play against. I've also heard, though, that such gun lines primarily consist of rows upon rows of thunderers, and not anything else.

What do you think? I do want to play a -fun- army after all, and an army that is fun for people to play against, I just want a lot of war machines in it.

Urgat
09-12-2007, 20:42
Well, my experience is that dwarf gunlines are, well, yeah, boring to play with and against. Fans of gunlines (those who play them) may disagree with the "play with", but I'm not sure you'll find many people who won't side with me about the "play against" part

vorac
09-12-2007, 21:58
if i were you fill your specials with warmachines and your cores with warriors, don't inlcude crossbows or thunderers, this way you'll have less trouble finding opponents because most will not play you if you bring a gunline, the same reason i didn't build an army of nuln everyone at my lgs said they would refuse to play against it.

Unwise
09-12-2007, 23:26
The fact you choose Xbows over guns will not make it any less of a gunline and it will remain very dull to play against.

As Vorac mentioned, you would really need to cut back on missle troops if you wanted alot of war machines.

It's sad that playing the army you want to without an intent to be cheesy can be no fun for the other person. I run into the same problem with my skaven. I love their warmachines and would max out on those if I could.

marv335
09-12-2007, 23:37
It's sad, an army with such fantastic troops available and all I see are thunderers, xbows and warmachines.
once they get in close, dwarfs are one of the fastest armies (contrary to popular belief) because they cannot be march blocked. an infantry unit with a 2+ save? yes please :D

Ymir
09-12-2007, 23:59
Well, I like the dwarves infantry units too...I might try a combined arms-approach, with a slow, steady advance backed up by war machines and general shooting. I just can't see how one uses the dwarves without building something of a gun line...guess I'll have to check out some army lists here on the forums.

theunwantedbeing
10-12-2007, 00:02
A gunline is rows of shooting troops, usually backed by artillery.
Drop the artillery and its still a gunline.
Drop the rows of shooting troops and its not really a gunline anymore.
Crossbows are guns as far as this topic is concerned.

People dont hate just those who intentionally take a gunline, if you have rows of shooting troops making up a large portion of your army (25%+ usually) then they will see you as a gunline player and not like you because of it.
Doesnt matter if it was unintentional or you "like" guns im afraid.

Warhammer is more than just the shooting phase!

Voodoo Boyz
10-12-2007, 00:06
Here's the problem.

Try playing a Dwarf Combat army with nothing but a few Warmachines to take down big nasty targets, and a bunch of combat blocks.

And try it without the Anvil, because people bitch about the Anvil, even normal ones.

And then your opponent sees this and never leaves their deployment area or does much moving at all, as they wait for you to come to them and dig your own grave.

Yeah, either take a bunch of shooting and combat blocks, to FORCE them to come to you, or you're digging your own grave.

Pavic
10-12-2007, 01:15
There is no doubt that playing against a Dwarf gunline can be very frustrating for most players. Even flyers and effective use of terrain are not terribly effective against a gunline set up. If you want to win, run the gunline. If you want to have a good time (and have a reasonable chance of having repeat games with the same opponent), don't use a gunline.

Wargamejunkie
10-12-2007, 03:06
It can be dull to play against it sometimes, but its your army go for it.

Shadowsinner
10-12-2007, 03:49
well i say go about half and half... in a normal 2k list i usually run about 5-6 war machines, and the rest in block units. I'd carry maybe 1 large unit of thunderers or 2 smaller units then the rest is warriors longbeards and good ol' ironbreakers. this way in the event that your machines explode you will still have a majority of solid combat ready fighters

txamil
10-12-2007, 03:55
Here's the problem.

Try playing a Dwarf Combat army with nothing but a few Warmachines to take down big nasty targets, and a bunch of combat blocks.

And try it without the Anvil, because people bitch about the Anvil, even normal ones.

And then your opponent sees this and never leaves their deployment area or does much moving at all, as they wait for you to come to them and dig your own grave.

Yeah, either take a bunch of shooting and combat blocks, to FORCE them to come to you, or you're digging your own grave.

/agree and 10 char minimum

p3990013
10-12-2007, 11:40
The problem with Dwarves is that their most interesting units are special (Hammerers, Iron breakers, Miners). So if you want lots of warmachines (special) you won't be able to field these nice units.

Asfaloth
10-12-2007, 13:13
If you like Dwarven warmachines, go for it! It won't be boring as long as you don't go over the top and play pure gunline. Some warriors, some crossbowmen/thunderes, some Hammerers/Iron Brakers/Slayers and 4-5 war machines is a very good set-up for Dwarves. Gun-Lines may be better often, but if they run into the false enemy they get slaughtered. Close combat Dwarven armies on the other hand are really difficult to win with (although with better odds then in 6th edition).

der_lex
10-12-2007, 13:20
War machine spamming bothers me as well. I sigh every time I open my mail box, and find several 'Wouldn't you rather have a Great Cannon' or 'Women will love your new 9" Bolt Thrower' messages.


On a slightly more serious note: if you want to get a lot of war machines, go for it. As somebody else already pointed out, it means you won't get any of the cool hitty Dwarven special troops. As long as the rest of your army doesn't consist of only Quarrelers/Thunderers, I doubt too many people will complain (of course at least some will complain...it IS Warhammer, after all ;))

Leogun_91
10-12-2007, 14:18
[QUOTE=der_lex;2169378]War machine spamming bothers me as well. I sigh every time I open my mail box, and find several 'Wouldn't you rather have a Great Cannon' or 'Women will love your new 9" Bolt Thrower' messages.
QUOTE]
Try "No doomdive" spamfilter it works for me.

Well play gunline if you want. If you really love warmachines it could go. Or just play warriors and machines. And if you love warmachines abuse engineering runes.

DDogwood
10-12-2007, 14:30
There is no doubt that playing against a Dwarf gunline can be very frustrating for most players. Even flyers and effective use of terrain are not terribly effective against a gunline set up. If you want to win, run the gunline. If you want to have a good time (and have a reasonable chance of having repeat games with the same opponent), don't use a gunline.

I'd say that the Dwarf/Empire 'gunline' problem is a design flaw in the game, rather than a problem with the players. As Voodoo Boyz says, it's hard to build a good Dwarf army without using a decent number of missile troops and warmachines. Furthermore, a missile-heavy, warmachine-heavy Dwarf army fits perfectly with the world background.

On the other hand, it's not enjoyable to play (or play against) an army that simply stands and shoots, turn after turn. There's not a lot of "strategy" involved in, essentially, manning a trench. The problem is that ranged fire is a very effective way of demolishing enemy units.

Unfortunately there isn't an easy way to fix this, as the game is balanced around effective, long-range missile fire. Missile ranges should be halved, or shooting should be made far less deadly, if the point is to make the game more enjoyable (which would severely weaken all the shooty armies, and strenghten the non-shooty ones - I don't think it could be done without a total rewrite of every army list). In Warmaster, for example, shooting is highly unlikely to destroy enemy units, but it can force enemy regiments to retreat and break up battle-lines, so it is strategically important.

W0lf
10-12-2007, 14:31
2 Bolt thrower a cannon a grudge thrower and a organ gun is enough of a variety at 2k surely?

Take that and then a unit of quarrelers/thunderers and thats a good set-up.

Just dont make the bolt throwers S7 and make sure you dont take an anvil.

Theres even a special slot left for a block of ironbreakers!

Voodoo Boyz
10-12-2007, 14:55
2 Bolt thrower a cannon a grudge thrower and a organ gun is enough of a variety at 2k surely?

Take that and then a unit of quarrelers/thunderers and thats a good set-up.

Just dont make the bolt throwers S7 and make sure you dont take an anvil.

Theres even a special slot left for a block of ironbreakers!

GEEZE! That's a lot of Warmachines, even I don't take that many!

I am going to disagree with a few points he made though.

Two Bolt Throwers should always be made S7, one of them Flaming; and you always take an Engineer with them. The Cannon should get the Rune of Forging (re-roll misfires), and the Grudge Thrower, if you get one, should get the Rune of Accuracy and an Engineer.

The Organ Gun is actually a point of contention with me. It's usefulness is kind of debatable, but maybe that's because I never have any luck with mine! It is deadly when it works though.

I will agree with W0lf in that if you take a LOT of guns or shooting, don't take an Anvil. The Anvil is only any "fun" when used in conjunction with combat blocks, ie you use it to move. In a gunline or shooting heavy army it's only used to slow units down and it really becomes annoying and unfun.

marv335
10-12-2007, 15:26
I've faced a dwarf army with an anvil, two cannons, two bolt throwers a grudge thrower, and two organ guns along with 2 units of thunderers and two units of quarrelers.
the game didn't last long.
It was the least fun game I've ever played, and I won't play the person who fielded them ever again.
other players who've played this person have similar views.
the person in question is running out of opponents fast.

the1stpip
10-12-2007, 15:55
I have to admit, my empire army, at worst, only ever takes 2 cannons and 2 mortars, and I rarely take handgunners, etc.

I would take four war machines, and then combat blocks to defend them.

Maybe one or two squads or gunners just to cause extra casualties. Not forgetting, they are quite good combat blocks when you rank them up.

W0lf
10-12-2007, 15:59
GEEZE! That's a lot of Warmachines, even I don't take that many!

I am going to disagree with a few points he made though.


Two Bolt Throwers should always be made S7, one of them Flaming; and you always take an Engineer with them.

The idea of not making them s7 was to make them fairer. S7 bolt throwers are silly.


The Cannon should get the Rune of Forging (re-roll misfires), and the Grudge Thrower, if you get one, should get the Rune of Accuracy and an Engineer.

yes but i didnt mention runes.


The Organ Gun is actually a point of contention with me.

You arnt using it right!

Squeeze (by squeeze i mean nearly touching) it inbetween 2 infantry blocks and watch as nothing can get through the gap to charge it. They are lethal.


I will agree with W0lf in that if you take a LOT of guns or shooting, don't take an Anvil. The Anvil is only any "fun" when used in conjunction with combat blocks, ie you use it to move. In a gunline or shooting heavy army it's only used to slow units down and it really becomes annoying and unfun.

actually the anvil is never 'fun'. Hell having a combat army with a charge range of 18" and miners that can appear and then flank charge is not only 'not fun' its also stupidly broken.

WLBjork
10-12-2007, 16:04
Here's the problem.

Try playing a Dwarf Combat army with nothing but a few Warmachines to take down big nasty targets, and a bunch of combat blocks.

And try it without the Anvil, because people bitch about the Anvil, even normal ones.

And then your opponent sees this and never leaves their deployment area or does much moving at all, as they wait for you to come to them and dig your own grave.

Yeah, either take a bunch of shooting and combat blocks, to FORCE them to come to you, or you're digging your own grave.

I have taken pure melee Dwarfs many a time.

They work quite well actually.

Sure, they're slow, but it takes no more than 4 turns to reach your enemy's deployment zone, leaving 2 turns to get stuck in *assuming* that your opponent is daft enough to stand there and let you.

My opponents are not usually daft enough to let me charge them in their deployment zone - something to do with wanting to have less than a 5/12 chance of fleeing off the board when they fail their break test.

Voodoo Boyz
10-12-2007, 16:10
The idea of not making them s7 was to make them fairer. S7 bolt throwers are silly.

It's a benefit Dwarfs get, we need to be able to deal with things like Chariots, Giants, Dragons, Steam Tanks, and all the other big nasties out there. Our combat blocks generally won't charge (especially without the anvil) and likely won't get to hit back in any capacity to hurt said big nasty. Ranged attacks are all we've got.



You arnt using it right!

Squeeze (by squeeze i mean nearly touching) it inbetween 2 infantry blocks and watch as nothing can get through the gap to charge it. They are lethal.


I probably should be using it this way, but then that means I'm staying nice and still. I generally wanted to move my infantry blocks a bit somewhat, and deploying this way and then having to move means I start blocking my own shots.



actually the anvil is never 'fun'. Hell having a combat army with a charge range of 18" and miners that can appear and then flank charge is not only 'not fun' its also stupidly broken.

I've had games with the Anvil and a combat army that myself and my opponents enjoyed. And with the Anvil only one unit a turn (without the ancient power) can charge 12" not, 18".

Miners with the Anvil is good, but you know they're there and can plan accordingly by not being so close to a board edge. Besides how is the Anvil or Anvil + Miners any different than say Tomb Kings with movement spells and Tomb Scorpions or any other unit that can appear and then charge?

Voodoo Boyz
10-12-2007, 16:11
I have taken pure melee Dwarfs many a time.

They work quite well actually.

Sure, they're slow, but it takes no more than 4 turns to reach your enemy's deployment zone, leaving 2 turns to get stuck in *assuming* that your opponent is daft enough to stand there and let you.

My opponents are not usually daft enough to let me charge them in their deployment zone - something to do with wanting to have less than a 5/12 chance of fleeing off the board when they fail their break test.

They generally shot the hell out of me with what they could and then set up flank charges with their fast movers that I couldn't get to. It was also easier for their fast stuff to get around me and threaten the flanks if I did charge right in.

And if I didn't move, they'd just keep shooting/magic me.

Gwelandor
10-12-2007, 18:21
In a typical 2k army of dwarfs i usually field two warmachines. This normally consists of a cannon with rune of forging (never take a cannon without this rune) and an organ gun. Also field 1-2 units of crossbowmen and/or some thunderers. I take the anvil about 50% of the time, i enjoy using it and my opponents never complain.

Malorian
11-12-2007, 21:57
I'd rather face tons of warmachines than 1 anvil of doom...

diehard0123
13-12-2007, 14:21
As a Dwarf player it can be tempting to take alot of warmachines, I have found that this can be very devistating in a game, especially when the dice gods are turning their backs on you. I say go with some bolt throwers and a organ gun, maybe even a gyro. If you want shooting troops go with thunderers and maybe a unit of Longbeard rangers. I have stopped using my grudge throwers as they are somewhat ineffective against some warmachines and large targets. A well balanced Dwarf army is the way to go. I prefer an offensive army which many opponents love to play and makes for a fun game.
Keep in mind that your opponent will eventually get across the board and your crews only have light armor, by turn 4 or 5 all your machines are unmanned and useless, that is unless you have units slowing them down and keeping them in combat.