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View Full Version : Apoc Deals = Clearinghouse of sorts?



Alessander
10-12-2007, 15:50
Manager at a local indie retailer says he heard that GW will be doing a major refocus on their business strategy, with the shift to emphasise WH Online next year, and that the Apocalypse deals are a "clearance" attempt to downsize their warehouses as less focus will be on models in the coming years.

Anyone hear this?

The-Malefic
10-12-2007, 15:51
100% bullpoop.

Rick_1138
10-12-2007, 15:58
100% bullpoop.

QFT

GW are not in full possession of the rights to Warhammer online, the vendor is, i.e. Vivendi with Blizzard etc for wow.

Yes they have the IP rights and will get a %, but thats about it.

GW is about toy soldiers first and foremost. What happens if WAR online is poo, then what does the company do?

Sorry, chalking this up as not happening.:)

Karnage
10-12-2007, 16:33
I could see it being a move to clear out warehouses of old product, but I don't imagine it being to focus more on Warhammer Online and less on the models, just a move to get rid of stockpiles of older product to make room for the newer stuff, same reason as the mail order changes appear to have been done for.

lord_blackfang
10-12-2007, 16:41
Older products like the all-plastic Vindicator, for example.

baphomael
10-12-2007, 16:42
So....your trying to say they spent all those hours and resources, not to mention a hideous amount of cash, to create a new supplement for 40k, and spending a hideous amount of cash to produce the tools and moulds required to produce the associated product to go with it (eg, baneblades, templates etc) for the soul purpose of making big deals to go along with it in order to shift old stock to make room for a shifting refocus on *not* selling models?

Obviously. Makes total sense.

Necros
10-12-2007, 16:45
I highly doubt it has anything at all to do with any video game at all. They're clearing out the warehouses maybe, but that's just to make room for even more new stuff :p But the reason for so many deais is most likely only because those deals are selling well enough for them to keep coming up with new ones. I wonder how many of those terminator deals they sold so far? :)

dugaal
10-12-2007, 16:46
I agree with the original poster in that GW may be re-examining its core business models, in that its extensive IP has a great deal of potential outside its current mediums, eg plastic soldiers, books, etc.
Look at other struggling IP goldmines like say, Marvel comics, who have come back from near-bankruptcy through licensing to movie studios, video games etc.
while GW hopefully is not in such dire straits they could very well realize movies, video games, etc are not just a way to promote their core products, but are an end in themselves. They are getting a new CEO, and while its to early for that specifically to have affected their business, it may have been a long time coming and could signal that such a refocus was on the horizon

Just to add on above posters; I don't think they are going to downgrade their curent wargaming stuff, but perhaps streamline their inventory process which would involve clearing out excess, etc. It is obvious that their main product is and will continue to be wargames.

Sholto
10-12-2007, 16:47
Apoc is a way to sell more models, and the Baneblade and the Apoc rules and so on are in investment to that end. Would be very surprising if it was all an exercise in stock-clearance!

Not impossible (the investment might stack up against the value of the unsold stock), but surprising. Companies in financial hardship tend to refocus on what they are good at (models), not diversify into risky side-ventures.

Sholto

Valo
10-12-2007, 16:50
It could deffinetly be a reason behind SOME of the deals they made,the 10 leeman russ box set comes to mind with the rumors of another guard codex floating around....and the russ is an older model....but still one of my personal favorites...I could see them trying to get rid of them....but everything else....unlikely.

General Fishsticks
10-12-2007, 17:05
Apoc is a way to sell more models, and the Baneblade and the Apoc rules and so on are in investment to that end. Would be very surprising if it was all an exercise in stock-clearance!

Not impossible (the investment might stack up against the value of the unsold stock), but surprising. Companies in financial hardship tend to refocus on what they are good at (models), not diversify into risky side-ventures.

Sholto

Yeah, I'm in agreement with this. GW have started to realise that they have been sidelining their more consistent customer base in order to draw in the young players. Apocalpse is about catering for the collector market - who I'd gauge are the major source of their profits; and more importantly its about maintaining that client base.

I consider that the rumour the OP heard to be just rumour-mongering at it's most conspiratorial and desparate.

GW would be suicidal to jump from a market where they are a, if not the, dominant player (admittedly its a niche market, but a profitable one - even if they've botched their profit margins over the last couple of years) in order to go in to the computer/console market, which is a hell of a lot more competative, and where they have limited experience, and only a strong IP as a selling point.

Apocalpse was (in my estimation) a deliberate stockpiling, in order to profit from bulk sales.

Vic
10-12-2007, 17:13
No flippin way is this true. GW would be sliting their own throats!!!

Darnok
10-12-2007, 19:00
So....your trying to say they spent all those hours and resources, not to mention a hideous amount of cash, to create a new supplement for 40k, and spending a hideous amount of cash to produce the tools and moulds required to produce the associated product to go with it (eg, baneblades, templates etc) for the soul purpose of making big deals to go along with it in order to shift old stock to make room for a shifting refocus on *not* selling models?

Obviously. Makes total sense.

Quoted for truth. And hilarity. :D

Seriously, nothing in this rumour makes sense.

Reinholt
11-12-2007, 16:33
Yes and no...

Apocalypse definitely makes sense to clear out any overstock of plastics that they may have. The large bulk deals allow them to save significant money on packaging and unload inventory that they want to get out of a warehouse.

This could be one of two kinds of things:

1 - New things they want to promote sales of by getting them on the table (the new Vindies, for example)

2 - Old things they want to clear out because the stock is too much for the warehouses and/or may be replaced at some point in the not too distant future (the windrider host for all those eldar jetbikes, for example)

Those, from the construction of the army deals, appear to be the sales strategies to me, and from that perspective, I believe it is wise.

There's also a few outliers like the Baneblade, the huge demand for which has caught GW with their pants down, from what I've heard...

Vizier
01-01-2008, 01:00
GW would be suicidal to jump from a market where they are a, if not the, dominant player (admittedly its a niche market, but a profitable one - even if they've botched their profit margins over the last couple of years) in order to go in to the computer/console market, which is a hell of a lot more competative, and where they have limited experience, and only a strong IP as a selling point.


And Marvel comics would no longer exist if they followed advice like this. GW can temporarily make a profit selling apocalypse figures to a bunch of middle aged gamers, but the future of gaming is computerized. 40k is only 20 years old, in another 20 years it will be digital or non-existent.

IP is the future of GW if it is to have one.

MrP
01-01-2008, 01:26
And Marvel comics would no longer exist if they followed advice like this. GW can temporarily make a profit selling apocalypse figures to a bunch of middle aged gamers, but the future of gaming is computerized. 40k is only 20 years old, in another 20 years it will be digital or non-existent.

IP is the future of GW if it is to have one.

I'm sceptical of the idea that the future of 'gaming is on the PC. People've been saying it for the last few years. I can see it in a very long time, but it won't happen in the next few decades. I love my 6mm Napoleonic Brits and Frenchies and my 15mm ACWa. Of course, you can class me at middle-aged - provided I die in my mid-fifties like my Opa. ;)

Nephilim of Sin
01-01-2008, 01:26
And Marvel comics would no longer exist if they followed advice like this. GW can temporarily make a profit selling apocalypse figures to a bunch of middle aged gamers, but the future of gaming is computerized. 40k is only 20 years old, in another 20 years it will be digital or non-existent.

IP is the future of GW if it is to have one.

Actually, Marvel comic filed bankruptcy for following such advice; they overextended themselves severely, venturing into aspects they knew absolutely nothing about. Things started going downhill a few years after they purchased Fleer (and a plethora of less sane extensions), which was the powerhouse in that niche market at the time. Had they not severly restructured and went back to their roots, they would not exist.

For the record, I do not see models going out the window in 20 years. You might have less players, but people are not going to get anywhere near the same sense of satisfaction playing a video game if they want to be in a model based hobby. After all, NWN has not killed the D&D game; it has added to it.

spikyjames
01-01-2008, 01:56
C'mon guy's GW is and will always be a Miniature Wargames Company.

It's all about the Mini's.

for instance "Marine Battle Company" because they really needed to get rid of marines:rolleyes: there strongest selling line!

@Alessander, i think your retailer might have other agenda's. what else gaming wise does he sell, PC games perhaps?

Honestly guy's i can probably see where this disscussion is going, i've been playing GW games and painting GW mini's for the best part of the last 20 year's and i really don't want to see the company going in any other direction.

Do You?

If you do then why are you playing the games and painting the miniatures?

James

VetSgtNamaan
01-01-2008, 05:00
As I have found out working in retail there is always the competition between how well things sell as opposed to how well the bigwigs think something will sell. it could be that they have over produced somes like say space marines or imperial guard tanks that have not sold very well then used that as a catalyst to come up with Apocalypse. Or not. It is without question that GW is under increasing pressure from other sources so how they react to it .

Tapping the Vein
01-01-2008, 12:40
So....your trying to say they spent all those hours and resources, not to mention a hideous amount of cash, to create a new supplement for 40k

Well, I don't actually think that creating this Apocalypse book took more than half and hour time, and a pair of beers.
It's so POOR, it's so retarded...
It lacks quality everywhere.
The BB model is great and that but the actual Apocalypse book ain't but rubbish.


It's no surprise to me that this company is sinking into the abyss, with such products as this book.

RobC
01-01-2008, 13:28
There's little to no chance that this rumour has any basis, simply because Warhammer Online is being produced by a third-party company. The longbeards at GW (Rick P, Alan Merrett and John Blanche) may rubber-stamp the background and give them the nod to continue with the project, but otherwise it's effectively a licensing agreement. And while it could turn a huge profit for GW, it's effectively a sideline.

If you need a metaphor, it would be the equivalent of letting someone use your name to make licensed merchandise while you did... nothing. Great if you're KISS, not so great if you're a manufacturer of miniatures.

BrianC
01-01-2008, 17:37
I could see GW licensing an Eye of Judgement style minis game, say based on a smaller squad based game. That would be great from my PoV. Even so, I can't see GW giving up making figures any time soon.

Does anybody know how much the Dawn of War games have made compared to the normal sale of minis?

susu.exp
01-01-2008, 21:56
GW can temporarily make a profit selling apocalypse figures to a bunch of middle aged gamers, but the future of gaming is computerized. 40k is only 20 years old, in another 20 years it will be digital or non-existent.

I think that is ********. "The future of gaming is computerized"... Computer games are a very different animal from other games, Iīve noticed that recently a lot of people have started to play poker in germany. All of a sudden Chips are in every store, Iīve seen them in hardware stores and bookstores. And thatīs not despite the oportunity to play online for free, but probably because of that opportunity. If WAR is succesfull, people will buy the minis as well. Itīs generating interest even now, as every preview article about the game mentions the TTWG background. LotR sold really well, even though there were a bunch of Computer games using the same IP. Iīve heard the line so much and I donīt think computers replace what preceeded them. Even though thereīs music thatīs entirely created on a PC (or Mac), people still buy stuff from bands with Guitars. Even though some Photographs have taken to digital manipulation of their photos to create art, there are still pictures in galleries shot on film. Even though you can now shoot pictures in HD, or even just standard DV, the vast mayority of theatrical movies are shot on 16 mil film. Even where you would expect people to prefer a digital challenge to one that involves moddeling with superglue and saws - the lan party fraction - have started a hobby that is pretty GWish: Case Modding (hint to Forgeworld: Some people may want an AdMech-Cog symbol on their Fans).

Computer games have very different appeal from what GW does and I donīt think they replace the experience.

Brandir
01-01-2008, 22:11
Following the bad 2006 - 2007 GW operating year I would be surprised if GW were not exploring ways of exploiting their IP. However, as we have seen with Warhammer Online, these deals take many years. So, if there is a change of strategy, we won't see it until 2009 - 2010 at the earliest.

Templar Ben
01-01-2008, 23:27
Does anybody know how much the Dawn of War games have made compared to the normal sale of minis?

Made for GW or made as a whole?

Jan Polder
01-01-2008, 23:53
I must agree with most of the posters. The rumour doesn't make sense. Besides the new re-focus part also apocalypse as selling overstock must be faulty.

Why would they repackage all those leman russes, jetbikes, marines etc. which require human labour (read expensive) instead of simple NOT producing the products in the first place. Also, rumours about the Battle Company were around almost a year in advance. This indicates more a stockpiling FOR apocalyse then the other way around in my view.

Cheers,

Max

BrianC
02-01-2008, 06:15
Made for GW or made as a whole?Both if possible, but more importantly for GW.

RobC
02-01-2008, 12:31
Again, GW can't suddenly 'change direction' as seems to be suggested. They are effectively a manufacturing company with a half-decent IP arm attached to it. They tried to co-develop a computer game (the original Warhammer Online) and lost a lot of money in the process, so it's much easier for them to license 'IP exploitation' out (in the way BLP, a fully owned part of GW PLC, has the licence to produce fiction and RPGs for GW properties) than to do it themselves.

If you're suggesting that GW closes its manufacturing facilities down and become nothing more than a bunch of writers... that's a scary prospect, and unlikely to happen unless things go really, really badly in the next few years. For investors and many of the staff, the miniatures are the main hobby, and the rules and background are a supporting role. It's not as simple as comparing GW to Sega when it stopped manufacturing hardware, for example.

Templar Ben
02-01-2008, 13:01
Both if possible, but more importantly for GW.

We can get all of the licensing income but that would include anything else that they have licensed out. I will post it tonight.

It is pennies to pounds compared to figures though.

Arjuna
03-01-2008, 04:32
This is ridiculous. By the way didnt an earlier warhammer online project die at birth or was aborted some time in the past? I seem to remember reading something about a project headed by Robin Drews that blew a couple of million down some rathole a couple of years ago???

GW makes money producing miniatures, once you get a grip on that it helps explain why the make certain decisions. Of course you can never know for sure because their bonehead coefficient is also pretty high. I think some knucklehead looked at the number of people that play WoW and Lineage and got all excited. However, the mmorpg market is quite fickle and many mmorpg have died or peaked. Even FFXI online which has a huge base of final fantasy fans has not really increased its subscription base in recent years.

Unless warhammer online is an outstanding product, I doubt it has a 50% chance of co,,ercial success. Honestly, a game themed around 40k would seem a better bet to me, considering the large number of fantasy competitors that are either established or coming online soon.

BrianC
03-01-2008, 08:04
We can get all of the licensing income but that would include anything else that they have licensed out. I will post it tonight.

It is pennies to pounds compared to figures though.Thought it might be, just underlines how daft it would be for GW to give up their core business. Even GW couldn't be that daft, could they? ;)

Brandir
03-01-2008, 08:18
If I remember correctly GW invested some Ģ8 million into creating Warhammer Online with a partner company, Climax. It all 'went south' and GW ended the partnership and effectively wrote off he money.

This was during the period when GW were awash with the LOTR cash.

Templar Ben
03-01-2008, 10:39
Thought it might be, just underlines how daft it would be for GW to give up their core business. Even GW couldn't be that daft, could they? ;)

Year.........................Revenue from Models..........Royalties
2006-2007...............111,483,000.................... ...1,423,000
2005-2006...............115,150,000.................... ...1,170,000

I wasn't far off in my "pennies to pounds" statement. On the plus side the royalties income does not have a "cost of goods sold" which must be removed to get to operating profit.

susu.exp
03-01-2008, 11:12
Unless warhammer online is an outstanding product, I doubt it has a 50% chance of co,,ercial success. Honestly, a game themed around 40k would seem a better bet to me, considering the large number of fantasy competitors that are either established or coming online soon.

Iīd say the chances that WAR will be successful are better than 50%. It probably wonīt kill WoW, but the developers did produce Dark age of Camelot, which paid its bills and still has a community attached to it, because it has a great PvP system, which will make its way to WAR, including some RvR stuff, thatīll be expanded upon. So a lot of DaoC players are excited about the RvR system that WAR is going to have and unlike the earlier Warhammer online, they now have a studio working with GW that is already established in the MMORP world and brings their own fans. Recently there was an interview in GameStar Dev, a magazine for Games Developers, where one of the designers of Everquest (IIRC) talked about MMORPs and noticed that two had recently failed, even though they had big name IP (although he doesnīt name them, my bet is on the Star Wars and LotR ones) attached to them. He cited a lack of innovation in Gameplay and the fact that "these universes are mainly known through books and films", which make it hard to "produce an independent storyline that wonīt disappoint players". He also mentions that WoW did avoid both, by picking a background that was known from a strategy game and introducing new GP elements and there was "one to watch out for, that does the same".

In short: While somebody who picks up LotR wants to do the "Legolas kills the Stone Troll" move in the mines of Moria and is disappointed if he never meets Gandalf, a Warhammer fan doesnīt have specific ideas on the story, just the setting. And if RvR is anywhere near what PvP in Camelot was then players who donīt know the setting will dig the mechanics enough to get into it.

More than half a million people have signed up for their Beta run and thatīs half a million subscribers if what theyīve shown us does work. But since theyīve done PvP and some of RvR in DaoC and done it well, I think they can and will deliver. So 50% chance at success? Adjust that number upwards a bit.

Sleazy
05-01-2008, 11:56
I think that is ********. "The future of gaming is computerized"... Computer games are a very different animal from other games, Iīve noticed that recently a lot of people have started to play poker in germany. All of a sudden Chips are in every store, Iīve seen them in hardware stores and bookstores. And thatīs not despite the oportunity to play online for free, but probably because of that opportunity. If WAR is succesfull, people will buy the minis as well. Itīs generating interest even now, as every preview article about the game mentions the TTWG background. LotR sold really well, even though there were a bunch of Computer games using the same IP. Iīve heard the line so much and I donīt think computers replace what preceeded them. Even though thereīs music thatīs entirely created on a PC (or Mac), people still buy stuff from bands with Guitars. Even though some Photographs have taken to digital manipulation of their photos to create art, there are still pictures in galleries shot on film. Even though you can now shoot pictures in HD, or even just standard DV, the vast mayority of theatrical movies are shot on 16 mil film. Even where you would expect people to prefer a digital challenge to one that involves moddeling with superglue and saws - the lan party fraction - have started a hobby that is pretty GWish: Case Modding (hint to Forgeworld: Some people may want an AdMech-Cog symbol on their Fans).

Computer games have very different appeal from what GW does and I donīt think they replace the experience.


Its not just Germany dude, I've noticed a huge boom in poker.

Video games will never eliminate tabletop games. I would think most people are like me, I love playing the latest video games but that doesnt stop my GW hobby.

I dont really like any GW video games I've played either, it kinda misses the point for me, theres no emotional attachment to a force I've spent time and effort making distinctly mine.

Horses for courses.

Protolawyer
05-01-2008, 16:01
Year.........................Revenue from Models..........Royalties
2006-2007...............111,483,000.................... ...1,423,000
2005-2006...............115,150,000.................... ...1,170,000

I wasn't far off in my "pennies to pounds" statement. On the plus side the royalties income does not have a "cost of goods sold" which must be removed to get to operating profit.

That's a really interesting set of numbers and is in keeping with what you see with a lot of IP-centric companies that are starting to realize, "oh, hey, we can make money by letting other people make stuff with our IP." It also suggests that THQ (the license holder for Dawn of War) got that license at a bargain rate. The Dawn of War franchise has been a pretty good seller, at least here in the United States, moving 1.5 million copies by '06 according to Relic, its developer. Assuming that the game went for an average of $30 US a copy, and adding in all the other IP licensing that GW does, it looks like THQ is only paying a 2% or less royalty per copy. As I haven't seen the actual agreement, it's possible that THQ is pulling dev. costs off the top (common), so future sales will be "pure" profit more in line with what Templar Ben was envisioning, but still. For the computer game world, that's a great license, and it's unfortunately a sign that, at least before 2004, when Dawn of War was released, GW didn't have a clue about how to value its IP. One can hope that it's gotten a little more savvy since then.