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6th and Final Champion
15-04-2005, 01:29
I pln on donig an all fast dark elf army. The list I made currently has 2 bolt throwers in it. I was wondering if it'd be wise to keep so I can shoot my opponents war machines. Or scrap them since the army is gonna be fast. Any opinions are appreciated!

Wargamejunkie
15-04-2005, 02:21
I would keep them being that they are your only real anti-armour. While it is true they are an easy target, but if the enemy has at least one unit of knights or anything semi-expensive you will earn their points back fast. Use your guys to take out their war machines, have your bolt throwers weaken up tough units.

taer
15-04-2005, 02:32
I would keep them being that they are your only real anti-armour. While it is true they are an easy target, but if the enemy has at least one unit of knights or anything semi-expensive you will earn their points back fast. Use your guys to take out their war machines, have your bolt throwers weaken up tough units.


Um, dude, the repeater bolt throwers are 100 pts. a piece, for 200 points. In this army, that's a very easy 200 points for his opponent to get, and not a terrible lot of armies run around with a severly higher number of points of high save units (eg. cavalry). And killing knights isn't the only way to deal with 'em. Since his fast cav are, well, faster, it shouldn't be all that hard to flank a unit of knights, especially if he can bait them right, thus really screwing them over. Afterall, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

So I guess I'm saying, if you are taking an all fast army, it is a waste of points, and also a screw job for you in the movement phase (Oh, I can't go there, it'll block my line of sight. Oh, I need to keep one of my dark rider units hanging back to protect my valuable war machines, etc.). Basically, since you plan to play on speed, anything that is either slow, or doesn't move, hampers you more in the long run than something that moves fast.

6th and Final Champion
15-04-2005, 02:42
My list goes like this

Highborn -Gauntlets of power, mystic shield of light, cold one-273

Sorceress-Lvl 2, lore of shadow Dispell scroll, darkstar cloak, dark steed-187

Sorceress-Lvl 2, lore of shadow Dispell scroll X2, Dark Steed-187



Cold Ones(9)-Soul shadows standard, full command-356

Cold Ones(10)-War banner, full command-360

Darkriders(6)-Full command, spears, repeater crossbows-179 X2

Darkriders(7)-Full Command, spears, repeater crossbow-203 X2

Reapeater Bolt thrower(2)-200

Shades(10)-Light Armor-150
Total: 2482

taer
15-04-2005, 02:53
Why aren't your mages mounted on anything? They are going to be mutilated if they aren't and they don't have a foot regiment to hide in (and no, the shades don't count)

6th and Final Champion
15-04-2005, 02:56
lol whoops they are I just forgot to type it lol

warlord hack'a
15-04-2005, 16:02
well, you are going to charge over and do some killing as fast as possible right:

then drop the bolt throwers as you will very soon be in cc and your bolt throwers have nothing to shoot at.

furthermore, why use mages, they will give you the same problem, can not cats a lot of spells against units in close combat..

and why have such small units? your best unit of cold one knights is not large enough to outnumber the enemy, so you lose one CR already, and you have only 2 ranks so you lose again +2 Cr versus a nomal block of troops. Of course you think you can flank but that will be hard as your speed will limit your manouverability (this is hard to understand but look at it this way: I see all fast units in front of me, why should I march forward to expose my flanks if you are going to charge me anyway? I will just stand and wait and shoot with my warmachines untill you have to charge my front. Of course against enemies with few units this might work but then again, how many armies have few units?

And remember, Cold ones cause fear, so if you outnumber the enemy and win combat they autobreak unless immune to psychology (not frenzy as they were just broken zo frenzy ends), so get a unit of at least 12 or even better, 16 knights. Don't worry that they are expensive, you can autobreak 80% of the units in the warhammer world, that has to cost something!

Get you dark rider units a bit bigger if you want to flank, make maybe two groups of 8 for flanking and 2 groups of 5 for warmachine hunting

These are just my thoughts and I have 0 hours experinece playing DE but some hours experience fighting them..

6th and Final Champion
15-04-2005, 16:45
12 or 16?! Wow, never seen a cav unit that big. What do you mean I woont outnumber them. Generally the unit size will be 20 max. I think Id outnumber them. At least where I play anyway. I think they'd be fine. Ill try taking out the sorceresses though. Should I ad combat heroes instead? The only reason I took sorceresses really is for a scroll caddy. But if wont need them..

warlord hack'a
15-04-2005, 17:52
sorry for my bluntness, I am an O&G player, am used to thinking in unit sizes with al least at the very very minimum 20 models. But h\what you can also do is charge both units of cav at the same enemy unit, that way you have the manouvearability and flexibility of two units and the auto outnumber of one big unit (however, if the enemy forms up in a nice battleline you will get into contact with more than one unit at the same time..)

I would get something that is combat heavy, but you have also other fast options, like a hydra or a flying creature. The point is, you want to charge and break the enemy in the charge, best way to do that is negate rank bonus, best way to do that is park a flyer in the back of a unit.. But flyers are tricky, warmachines will eat most of them alive.. Can you not also have Harpies? If you can, do so, use those to either hunt warmachines or get in the rear of a unit. Then charge with you CO knights and things will look okay.

Main problem remains you do not have an army that is tuned for hth so against hth armies you will have a hard time..

Festus
15-04-2005, 18:02
Hi

Why aren't your mages mounted on anything? They are going to be mutilated if they aren't and they don't have a foot regiment to hide in (and no, the shades don't count)
Why shouldn't they count?

Not that it matters much since they are actually mounted.

Greetings
Festus

Wargamejunkie
15-04-2005, 18:53
Well, I dont know who you guys play but at least where I am at my opponents either will have a lot of foot troops in which you just just go to the 6 shots, or they have at least one unit of something nasty in which you go the big bolt of unpleasantness.

Just what else are you going to get for the 200 points another unit of dark riders, now you are in the same boat as the all troop dwarfs, you will be forced to close on them to do all of your killing.

Which people might respond but we have these spiffy little repeaer-bolt but then you are moving -1, shooting long range -1, and mutiple shots-1, while if they have any archers they will A) out number you and B) only have a max of -2.

Thats just my opinion though, good luck and have some fun.

chivalrous
15-04-2005, 19:20
Why not dump the Bolt throwers in favour of a couple of Cold One Chariots with Spears for the crew?

taer
16-04-2005, 02:53
Hi

Why shouldn't they count?

Not that it matters much since they are actually mounted.

Greetings
Festus


Because sticking a mage in a light scouting unit that is to stalk near the enemy, block force marches, and generaly be harassers is not a very safe place for a mage to be hanging out. Plus, he can't scout, so it blocks that useful ability of the shades. And I said so.

As for the other 200 points, I'd suggest either another unit of shades, the lifetaker, or a unit of harpies.

Crazy Harborc
16-04-2005, 03:20
AS said, keep the bolt throwers for killing troops and warmachines. Those mages are your scroll caddies. They see to it that at least 4 of your opponent's spells won't work without IF being rolled. Even if the wizards are level one, they can carry two dispel scrolls each.

Larger units are a better idea. I prefer at least 10 coldones, 12 is better. Guard their flanks, and CHARGE, they are worth a lot less if they get charged. When they charge and out number, they will usually win round one.

Oguleth
08-05-2005, 14:45
What a small army for 2500 pts...

I`d keep the RBTs as well. You don`t really have much ranged power, and most likely need them to kill warmachine crew and annoying flankers. You might lose them, but if the opponent actually uses stuff to take them out, the rest of the army will get less attention. And against furies, scorpions and the like, a normal army would be hard pressed to protect them anyway, so I don`t see the idea. And against pure hth armies, you can sit around shooting them up a bit before you charge in yourself, voila...

Making the sorceressess caddies would be a good idea too IMHO...

redemptionist15
08-05-2005, 15:46
For starters you need another core unit for that to be a legal army.

I personally would drop the reapers, get some chariots, with the highborn around they should pass a lot of stupidity tests and they are awesome on the charge.

But the first thing you need to do is get another core unit!

Slyracoon
08-05-2005, 15:50
I'd keep one of them, to destroy march blockers and fast cavalry units, as even two of them won't have enough time to make a dent in the enemy units before your cavalry closes in. I'd also drop one of the sorceresses, and with the points from the dropped bolt thrower you've got enough for:

Noble: Heavy armour, SDC, great weapon, cold one, Seal Of Ghrond: 135pts
10 Shades: 150pts

Any unit your opponent sends after it will be so far out of the battle it will be useless, and with just the one there it won't be a huge loss if it gets killed.

Oguleth
08-05-2005, 15:56
redemp: what? do you play with minimum 5 core units or something? I guess you didn`t notice the "x2" behind his dark riders...

Sariel
08-05-2005, 16:20
I'd keep the bolt throwers. Thing is, they are'nt really that much of a liability. Sure, they're expensive, and 200 points is a heft investment. Except:

1) They help keep enemy characters on flyers honest. It probably won't kill them, but no one likes it when his general gets a single bolt in the head.

2) If the rest of his army is focusing on all that scary Cold One Knight action in the middle of the field, your bolt throwers might suddenly get a juicy flank shot at a unit of enemy heavy cavalry. You never know...

3) Every unit of fast cavalry/flyers/skirmishers that the other guy sends after the bolt throwers is one less unit that your opponent can use to march-block, flank or divert charges from your (VERY EXPENSIVE) cavalry units.

4) The RBTs actually have a pretty good chance of taking out (or at least seriously hurting) most fast units that your opponent sends after them.

Thing is, imho, using bolt throwers to target knights is seriously overrated.

Where they really excel is in cutting up light cavalry. Most light cavalry units (with the exception of Gobbos and Dire Wolves) are pretty expensive (100+ points), low toughness and next to no armour save. 2 rounds of multiple shots from a bolt thrower should be more than enough to neutralise a fast-cavalry unit. Its a little harder against skirmishers, but then again, it takes them longer to arrive.

The trick here is in the deployment. Use the bolt throwers as lures. Deploy them first. Either right in the middle, in whice case, there's a pretty good chance your opponent will deploy directly across from them (leaving you free to set up flank charges with your knights and Dark Riders), or just park them in opposite corners of the board. 48" covers a fair bit of ground, and like Slyracoon said, anything that goes after them is pretty much out of the game for about 4 turns.

(Also, there's a pretty good chance that the other guy won't have all THAT much fast stuff, so if he goes after one, the other one can keep firing..)

5) RBTs are also excellent at thinning out ranked T3 infantry. Not much, but enough to take out a rank or two. Pretty useful, especially since so much of your game plan consists of smashing through with Cold One Knights...

If nothing else, they'll help contest 2 table quarters (since the rest of your army should be well into your opponent's side of the table by the end of the game!).

redemptionist15
09-05-2005, 11:16
redemp: what? do you play with minimum 5 core units or something? I guess you didn`t notice the "x2" behind his dark riders...

Ahhh foolish me, i must have been tired or something i didnt notice the x2 :P

Minotower
05-06-2005, 07:36
Big cav units are to easily evaded, I recommend using blocks of only 5. Experienced players will just throw a small unit in front of them and charge them in the flank when your COK run over.
I wouldn't take the bolt throwers, they aren't really that effective, better take chariots, shades or DR.

Megilain
05-06-2005, 08:52
I agree with Sariel. Keep the bolt throwers. I also agree somewhat with Minotower, cavalry units that big are easily evaded and besides, right now you are paying about 150 per CoK unit for +1 to combat resolution a bonus which one shot from the enemy shooters can take away. I think units of 6 are much more effective. With the freed ~200 points you could buy two chariots which charging along your cavalry probably brings more to the combat then one rank...

Rae'arc
21-06-2005, 20:15
I don't know about the RBT's because they have their ups and downs as you can see but I don't think that is where the problem lies. The cavalry may be a problem. I was once of the opinion that 10 COK's where excellent for the fear but I think I was wrong. Units of 5 or indeed 6 work far better. Elves will always be outnumbered, that is the way of things and it is better to just accept it. You should win via crushing combat resolution through wounds caused. Bolster them with a hero and use magic defensively to keep them off you till the attack is pressed home. 10 COK's can work well if in a 10X1 formation and engaging 2 units at once. All the COK's are using their attacks and the opponent doesn't get any bonuses that he wouldn't get otherwise. It seems daunting but run the numbers. It works and is the ultimate form of elven efficiency. But of course this all works fine on paper but practically things never work out as planned and it requires very careful timing and placement. Sometimes us elves can take it right to them and come away the overwhelming victors. Good luck on the field. Good to see a Druchii thread appear.