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Aerambar
11-12-2007, 19:32
Let suppose a dragon charge a regiment of goblins and that when the dragon is 8" from the goblins two fanatics are release. Fanatic 1 rolls a 10", thus reaching the dragon, while fanatic 2 rolls 6", thus not reaching the dragon. What happens?
1- Nothing. The Dragon is considered flying over both fanatics.
2- The dragon is hit by fanatic 1 but he can continue is charge and fly over fanatic 2.
3- The dragon is hit by fanatic 1 and he will be hit by fanatic 2 if he continue is charge.

Thanks for the answer.

Atrahasis
11-12-2007, 19:49
3 is correct.

Aerambar
11-12-2007, 19:57
Thanks Atrahasis.

Borthcollective
11-12-2007, 20:05
So are the fanatics not considered intervening models? Is this covered by the fanatic rule?

marv335
11-12-2007, 20:45
that's why I charge an eagle at large blocks of night goblins. :D

Belerophon709
11-12-2007, 20:49
2 is correct actually.

The fanatic rules say nothing about the charging flier using his ground movement for the remaining part of the charge. It simply states that fliers land when the fanatics are initially released, after that the flier resumes flying, so unless he ends his charge move directly on top of fanatic #2, he doesn't make contact with it.

Makaiju
11-12-2007, 20:57
Ok. I really don’t know how this rule works and as stated earlier today, I have no books with me right now but are you guys saying:

A model with fly charges a goblin unit.
The goblin unit releases fanatics.
The flying model (who would fly over other terrain/models) would land and fight the first fanatic and then resume flying into the unit of goblins but not stop and attack the 2nd fanatic?

If fanatic rules say the flying model has to land when it sees the first fanatic, why wouldn’t it have to land to fight the 2nd flyer? I mean, if the flying model can ignore the 2nd fanatic why doesn’t it just ignore the 1st?

Is this just one of these lame rule wordings where GW assumes you never toss out more then 1 fanatic from a unit of goblins so they never specifically state what to do? Or are there actual rules that say you have to stop for the first fanatic only??

Nephilim of Sin
11-12-2007, 21:05
Well, the fanatic rule states that the models land when released, so that is why it take a hit with the first one. Although I have trouble imagining it flying again, then landing again just to "hop" over a fanatic...doesn't sit right with me. Especially since it says a charger must complete its charge unless panicked.

T10
11-12-2007, 21:05
The Flyer lands and takes hits as appropriate for any Fanatics that manage to reach it. Once all the Fanatics are resolved the Flyer completes it's charge move (which is still a flying move). The Flyer can now pass over any fanatics in it's path without taking damage. If it ends on top of a Fanatic when it is placed in base contact with the target will it take further hits.

-T10

Belerophon709
11-12-2007, 21:09
@Makaiju:

No one actually fights a fanatic. The models stop when they reach the 8 inch mark (fanatics are released from the hosting ng-unit when a unit comes within 8 inches of it). The player controlling the fanatics then nominates a direction for the fanatics to travel in and rolls 2d6 and moves the result in inches in the direction nominated. If he nominates the direction to be directly toward the charging unit and rolls 8+, the fanatic will make contact and move through the unit causing D6 S5 hits on said unit. It is NOT a CC-situation. If it rolls 7 or less, it just moves as far as rolled.
The fliers simply land while the fanatics are released. After that, they are free to resume their move as normal and the 2nd fanatic in the example has already been released at this point, hence the fliers will not have to land again until they make contact with the hosting ng-unit. Since they fly over the fanatics, they do not pass through them and so do not take damage as ordinary troops would. Much like a fleeing unit with the fly-rule isn't destroyed by fleeing over enemy units.
IF the fliers actually land on top of a fanatic as a result of their flight move coming to an end, then they will, per the rules, take damage.

I say again: The fliers do not land to fight the fanatics. They land while the fanatics are being released and may then continue their move.

DeathlessDraich
12-12-2007, 12:05
Hello and welcome Aeramber.

Just adding one clarification:

Your question states that the dragon charges. Therefore T10's answer applies to your question.

If the Dragon merely flies (in the Remaining moves phase) then Belerophon has provided the detailed answer.

Makaiju
12-12-2007, 13:08
I say again: The fliers do not land to fight the fanatics. They land while the fanatics are being released and may then continue their move.

That’s not my confusion (thinking they are doing a CC round of combat) but I am stating that situation to see if anyone repeats the rules in true RAW format for me because... well, people seem to like to do that hear and it's easier then running to the book store and buying an ORC book during my lunch today.

They haven’t so I’ll just check the Orc book at a friend’s house this weekend.

What I want to see is if the rules say “A charging unit will stop when it comes in contact with a fanatic that was launched during that turn. After resolving damage, the charging unit finishes its charge.”

Or does it actually say ‘the charging unit engages the fanatic’… or ‘the fanatic is hurdled at the charging unit even if that means launching the fanatic in the air.’

If the rule just says ‘comes in contact with’ then why would a flying unit stop flying and allow it’s self to come into contact with the fanatic?

Weirdest part is I want to verify this to warn my Orc playing friends of how others read the rules. I personally don’t mind when the fanatic hits my charging unit. (even more so since the guys I play with tend to have the fanatic spin off in no where land or right back into their own troops.)

T10
12-12-2007, 14:19
I'm looking forward to hearing what your friend's Orc book says.

Mine does not indicate that the Fanatic ever fights in close combat (it cannot be charged) and it only deals damage to units that it moves into contact with or vice versa. The Fanatic never remains in contact with the target. It is either destroyed or moved to a minimum of 1" away.

Why would the Dragon land a full 8" away from the Night Goblins when the Fanatic is released? Artifical Game Balance. It's to avoid people negating the Fanatics without risk.

-T10

Makaiju
12-12-2007, 15:01
Why would the Dragon land a full 8" away from the Night Goblins when the Fanatic is released? Artifical Game Balance. It's to avoid people negating the Fanatics without risk.
-T10

That is the only reason I can see the dragon landing before he... she.. uh.. it would normally reach the night goblins.

but even with forced game balance, shouldn't the rule say 'even flyers'. Otherwise by the rule stating "comes in contact with" flyers are exempt. Not because I want them to be but because of how the rules for flyers are written.

Jonke
12-12-2007, 18:23
It's not explicitly written but as soon as a flyer stops moving it is on the ground, any model charging night gobbos is stopped when 8" away. Check the first paragraph under 'moving flyers' on page 68.

Makaiju
13-12-2007, 13:40
It's not explicitly written but as soon as a flyer stops moving it is on the ground, any model charging night gobbos is stopped when 8" away. Check the first paragraph under 'moving flyers' on page 68.

While no one would know this, I want to apologize. I wanted to type two sentences for a reply and found I had written 8 giant paragraphs.

So let me try this again…. My reasoning behind flyers not being affected is because of the rules for flyers and fanatics are written to different perspectives.

Flyer rules are written to the units. They say what the unit does X for game reasons. (I.E. they land when the end their movement. How they soar over objects during movement and in turn move right over difficult terrain. Etc)

Fanatic rules are written to the player. They say “hey you… guy or girl moving the mini. Stop moving your pudgy grubby little hand 8 inches from the goblin unit and let your opponent resolve the effect of some Orky goodness. Then you can finish moving your model(s).”

If you mix the two formats and say that because you have to stop moving the mini, the mini must count as landing and suffering the results of anything they contact… well... your taking rules about how the player moves things and turning it into a rule about attacking the unit. That’s really not much different then saying “you bumped the table and your giant fell over. Since his hit the ground he must skip rolling on the chart next combat and automatically take the result of fell down.”


PS

Oh, and one of the main reasons I believe this is how rules are written is because landing is specifically mentioned in the rules. It specifically says that when a flying model ends its movement, that it must land. The rules then talk about what would happen if you have to land on difficult or even impassible terrain.

Anointed_By_Filth
13-12-2007, 14:10
Fanatic rules are written to the player. They say “hey you… guy or girl moving the mini. Stop moving your pudgy grubby little hand 8 inches from the goblin unit and let your opponent resolve the effect of some Orky goodness. Then you can finish moving your model(s).”

If you mix the two formats and say that because you have to stop moving the mini, the mini must count as landing and suffering the results of anything they contact… well... your taking rules about how the player moves things and turning it into a rule about attacking the unit. That’s really not much different then saying “you bumped the table and your giant fell over. Since his hit the ground he must skip rolling on the chart next combat and automatically take the result of fell down.”


Except that the fanatic rules don't read like that at all, they clearly state that flyer's land. Right there, plain sight, black and white, flyer's land. Don't try to quote a rule you haven't read, please.

Anointed_By_Filth
13-12-2007, 14:24
Fanatic rules are written to the player. They say “hey you… guy or girl moving the mini. Stop moving your pudgy grubby little hand 8 inches from the goblin unit and let your opponent resolve the effect of some Orky goodness. Then you can finish moving your model(s).”

If you mix the two formats and say that because you have to stop moving the mini, the mini must count as landing and suffering the results of anything they contact… well... your taking rules about how the player moves things and turning it into a rule about attacking the unit. That’s really not much different then saying “you bumped the table and your giant fell over. Since his hit the ground he must skip rolling on the chart next combat and automatically take the result of fell down.”


Except that the fanatic rules don't read like that at all, they clearly state that flyer's land. Right there, plain sight, black and white, flyer's land. Don't try to quote a rule you haven't read, please.

Now, here's what happens. The dragon comes within 8" and lands. The goblin player releases his fanatics, let's give some distances for mental visualization. Three fanatics, one goes out 11" the other 6" and the third a whopping 2". Now, fanatic number 1 causes his hits. After these hits are resolved the dragon continues his charge, now, since the dragon is a flyer he won't get any hits from fanatic number 2 because he flies over him. Here's the fun part though, if the goblin player was smart, his third fanatic will be placed in the dragon's line of charge and the dragon will make contact and land. Consider the base size of a dragon there's a pretty good chance this dragon just landed on the third fanatic, the dragon suffers 2d6 hits and the fanatic dies because a unit just ended it's movement on the fanatic. I think this is as close as it comes to being explained, short of me throwing a book and page number at you guys. So, clarified, no? Yes? More questions?

Makaiju
13-12-2007, 14:32
Except that the fanatic rules don't read like that at all, they clearly state that flyer's land. Right there, plain sight, black and white, flyer's land. Don't try to quote a rule you haven't read, please.

Cool. I won't and I'm not and I hope you see that I'm trying to do just want you are suggesting. Then again i would expect you to read the entire post and see that I'm asking someone to clarify the rule from the fanactics section... but we can't all get what we want now can we??

As I stated earlier I don't own an orc book and said I can't clarify the wording myself until I go over to a friends house this weekend and as I said... if anyone who does have the Orc book can fill in the blanks, please do. I want to see the fanatic rules as written in the book.

So now when I do go and read the fanatic rules, if there is no "flyers land" wording... I'll just come back and post 'Shinanigans!!'

If not, then I'll go back and wonder why when I asked how the fanatic rules read I was only told that it's because units stop 8 inches infront of night goblins. Because until your post, not a single person said "the fanatic rules specificly make reference to flyers needing to land." Just the opposite, they keep saying "Its implied but not stated".

Anointed_By_Filth
13-12-2007, 14:45
I don't understand why everyone is saying it's implied then, I just went to the car and checked my book to be even more certain. "Moving units stop (fliers land)" that's what it says. Unless some people have gotten the definition of imply confused with specifically stating.

But yes, the book does state specifically that fliers stop moving and land while the fanatics are being released. I play night goblins and the first thing I asked was,"Why would someone just stop and land while this happens." but, eh, GW does what GW wants I guess.

And I'm sorry if I came off a bit pissy earlier, I'm quite a bit sick and I had a late night last night, so I'm a bit cranky. Apologies.

Borthcollective
13-12-2007, 14:56
I don't understand why everyone is saying it's implied then, I just went to the car and checked my book to be even more certain. "Moving units stop (fliers land)" that's what it says. Unless some people have gotten the definition of imply confused with specifically stating.

But yes, the book does state specifically that fliers stop moving and land while the fanatics are being released. I play night goblins and the first thing I asked was,"Why would someone just stop and land while this happens." but, eh, GW does what GW wants I guess.

And I'm sorry if I came off a bit pissy earlier, I'm quite a bit sick and I had a late night last night, so I'm a bit cranky. Apologies.

Other than game balance it makes no sense, and even then it's flimsy. Don't flyers have better things to do than set off fanatics?

T10
13-12-2007, 15:29
Flyers can cover a lot of ground and trigger releases from multiple fanatics. Sure, it may get them killed but the weaker fliers like Great Eagles are pretty cheap. Cheaper than a full unit of light cav.

Chocolate Thief
13-12-2007, 16:12
Because it makes little sense that flyers land to be hit, I like to imagine that the fanatics actually get lauched skywards and hit the flyers in the air. I know that's not what the rules say but that's how it works in my head.

Belerophon709
13-12-2007, 16:38
If not, then I'll go back and wonder why when I asked how the fanatic rules read I was only told that it's because units stop 8 inches infront of night goblins. Because until your post, not a single person said "the fanatic rules specificly make reference to flyers needing to land." Just the opposite, they keep saying "Its implied but not stated".

You actually didn't ask the question you're implying that you asked. You asked:

"The flying model (who would fly over other terrain/models) would land and fight the first fanatic and then resume flying into the unit of goblins but not stop and attack the 2nd fanatic?

If fanatic rules say the flying model has to land when it sees the first fanatic, why wouldn’t it have to land to fight the 2nd flyer? I mean, if the flying model can ignore the 2nd fanatic why doesn’t it just ignore the 1st?

Is this just one of these lame rule wordings where GW assumes you never toss out more then 1 fanatic from a unit of goblins so they never specifically state what to do? Or are there actual rules that say you have to stop for the first fanatic only?? "

And I believe this question was already answered. I said in my post: "Fliers simply land." - While this is not a direct quote, it is in fact what the rules say. And as far as I can tell, you didn't ask for a quote, nor did you express any doubts regarding whether or not we were interpreting the rules.

What I took as the main issue in your post was the whole "engaging them in combat"-thing, which is what I responded to - in length.

Makaiju
13-12-2007, 17:01
And I'm sorry if I came off a bit pissy earlier, I'm quite a bit sick and I had a late night last night, so I'm a bit cranky. Apologies.

Nothing to apologize for but thanks for the words.

Most people’s written words get miss understood or taken the wrong way at times. Even professional writers have that problems at times and I know “I’m” no professional. Heck, most of my gaming partners barely consider me literate.

Example here is how I was reading these posts:

Me: does the fanatic rule really read like that?
Forum: yes it does.
Me: Those words or is it something you are implying means land?
Forum: it means they land.
Me: But I have seen others bend words accidentally or intentionally to cheese a game. If it doesn’t use the words ‘flyers land and let the fanatic hit them’ then it wouldn’t hit them.
Forum: it’s implied, why don’t you get that?
Me: because implied and stated are two different things and implied can be used to cheat the true rules/spirit of the game.
Forum: well its spec icily worded that flyers land.
Me: Oh. That’s dumb but I guess it’s a GW game balance thing. I’ll just picture things in my head like that other poster… hehehe… fanatic chucked in the air… hehe…silly fanatic, you can’t fly.


But here is what it seems the forum read:

Me: does the fanatic rule really read like that?
Forum: yes it does.
Me: really? I don’t like that.
Forum: It says specifically in the fanatic rule that flyers do land.
Me: So the rule says flyers have wings? Do they need feathers? I like feathers. I have a pillow made out of feathers. Do you have a cat?
Forum: Did you just fall asleep and start ‘sleep typing’ in this forum?

Makaiju
13-12-2007, 17:05
Flyers can cover a lot of ground and trigger releases from multiple fanatics. Sure, it may get them killed but the weaker fliers like Great Eagles are pretty cheap. Cheaper than a full unit of light cav.

Have them do it soon enough (like well before any of your other units can get near the night goblines) and you have a good chance of the fanatic spining to a piontless death or hitting other Orc troops.

It almost seems to be more of a hinderence to Night Goblins to me but I guess not many armies have cheap flyers they don't mind taking fanatic damage.

foehammer888
13-12-2007, 20:28
Some might ask "why would a flyer land to take hits from a fanatic?"

I might ask "if it didn't land, and simply charged the goblins, why would the goblins be forced to release a fanatic at a unit it couldn't hit?"

Basically, GW had two choices, make it such that flyers didn't trigger the release of fanatics, or institute the current rule to allow fanatics a way of hurting flyers, but it not being a guaruntee (similar to other units).

Some people need to realize that the rules of the game are not their to perfectly mimic reality (or fantasy reality), they are there to closely mimic reality while providing fair, challenging and balanced game play.

Foehammer

Makaiju
13-12-2007, 21:19
Some people need to realize that the rules of the game are not their to perfectly mimic reality (or fantasy reality), they are there to closely mimic reality while providing fair, challenging and balanced game play.

Foehammer

If you want to talk about ‘how we think rules should have been written’ then I agree with you. I don’t think fanatics should have to deploy against flyers and I don’t think flyers should force fanatics to deploy and I think that is a balanced set of rules.

If you think we are complaining that the rule ruins our ability to immerse ourselves in the game… then I think you’re just posting to post.

I personally don’t see anyone trying to argue about these rules being “realistic” or not.

People without the rules available to them (like me) just wanted to know if what was being said was really worded in the book or just implied by creative reading. (If there is one thing we all know from reading forums and playing new people… it’s that there are tons of cheaters out there. Some because they are just R-tards when it comes to reading and understanding rules and others because they want to win at all costs.)

Since the rules are stated (apparently very clearly) then we just thought we would ask for the validity of using or abusing the rule. How do we do it? Why? Would this abuse the Orc Player or give the Orc player a too much of an advantage?

Just questions. Free exchange of information.

Belerophon709
13-12-2007, 21:39
I might ask "if it didn't land, and simply charged the goblins, why would the goblins be forced to release a fanatic at a unit it couldn't hit?"



I think it's important to note that the fanatics - by rule - do not have to be sent towards the unit that triggers the release.

My interpretation: The fanatics are triggered by the proximity of an enemy. This makes the fanatics go even more ballistic (haha, flying fanatics - stupid joke) than they already are, making it impossible for the host unit to restrain them any longer. So they release them.
Depending on the intelligence of the rest of the gobbos, they release them in the direction that is most tactically sound. Depending on their intelligence this may indeed be towards the incoming flying unit, knowing full well that if the fanatic doesn't make initial contact there is a good chance it might not make contact at all since the flying unit can just fly over (thereby more than likely bypassing) the fanatic, or it may be against another, more promising, location/target, in another direction, where the fanatic might do more good in the way of blocking future charges (or at least making the enemy think twice) or simply messing with the opponents head.

Lucky24/7
14-12-2007, 13:32
Anoited is right .... Thers no questing really.....

Dito what he said etc

mav1971
14-12-2007, 14:12
I know the current book says they land, but in the past they said flyers are flying low to the ground. Low enough to get hit by a fanatic.

lparigi34
14-12-2007, 17:16
I might ask "if it didn't land, and simply charged the goblins, why would the goblins be forced to release a fanatic at a unit it couldn't hit?"



Now my case, in a bit different case (thanks foehammer888 for bringing this out).

An enemy unit is moving on the opposite edge of impassable terrain, so there is no way my fanatics can get there, but it moves within 8" of my NG unit. Do I have to release the fanatics? or do they have only to be released if the moving-within-8" could be hit by the release?

If the first is true, flying units charging goblins could use this as a tactical move: move within 8" but behind an obstacle or impassable terrain, so if fanatics are released in that direction they could never reach the charger and will likely be destroyed.

Also, do a guy inside a house or terrain but not visible to the NG unit do trigger the fanatics release?

Just questions

Belerophon709
14-12-2007, 18:11
Now my case, in a bit different case (thanks foehammer888 for bringing this out).

An enemy unit is moving on the opposite edge of impassable terrain, so there is no way my fanatics can get there, but it moves within 8" of my NG unit. Do I have to release the fanatics? or do they have only to be released if the moving-within-8" could be hit by the release?

If the first is true, flying units charging goblins could use this as a tactical move: move within 8" but behind an obstacle or impassable terrain, so if fanatics are released in that direction they could never reach the charger and will likely be destroyed.

Also, do a guy inside a house or terrain but not visible to the NG unit do trigger the fanatics release?

Just questions

Regarding the first question: Yes, you do have to release them. If the fanatics hit any sort of terrain-feature, they die. However - as mentioned before - you do not have to launch the fanatic(s) in the direction of whatever unit triggered the release. It is quite common that an eagle will be moved within 8 inches of a night goblin unit and be placed behind a terrain feature to trigger the release without being at risk.

Regarding the second question: No LOS to the triggering unit is required. Just proximity. Again: you do not have to launch the fanatic(s) in the direction of whatever unit triggered the release.

juample
14-12-2007, 21:22
3 is correct, but remember orc player can release the fanatic in any direction (not only in the enemy direction)

Belerophon709
15-12-2007, 12:19
3 is correct

Wrong, 2 is the correct answer - after the initial release, fliers can take to the air again, even when charging, and will overfly the remaining fanatics on their way in.

theunwantedbeing
15-12-2007, 12:40
Yes fliers fly in a low arc basically along the ground.
Although this is high enough to go over interposing units, but in the instance of fantaics getting released they land for some reason thats never really explained properly and makes absolutely no sense.
Once the fanatics have been released they then continue with their movement.

It would make a whole lot more sense if fliers were simply unable to be hit by fanatics while in flight (unless they are screamers slashing the fanatic), but still released them by moving to within 8" of them.

Is that rule where if the enemy appears within 8" of them, the fanatics are released in a random direction still there? (ie. you make horrors out of the night goblin unit or a high elf with the teleporting armour appears in range)

Chicago Slim
15-12-2007, 14:12
You want rules logic? That's easy to fill in for yourself, but here's two possible explanations, one of which has already been offered here:
1) The fanatics are launched up into the air a bit-- enough to catch the flyer, if they roll high enough to reach it (8"). If they roll low, then they hit the ground before they get there, and so the flyer wings right over them.
2) As it's planning to attack something on the ground shortly, the flyer normally "skims" just above the ground, and only gains enough altitude to fly over terrain or models when it needs that height. When the fanatics first pop out, they surprise the flyer. As soon as it's been hit, the flier wings upward, so that it flies over any other fanatics ahead of it.

In either case, the easiest way to describe the rules-effect was to say "fliers land"-- two words that convey the same effect as either of the rather lengthier descriptions above.

Personally, I like explanation #2, myself-- that's how many flying predators hunt ground-dwelling prey, in our world...

Greyfire
15-12-2007, 14:56
It's been a fun discussion, but have we strayed from the original question/answer?

Flyers must land when fanatics released (p 25 O&G, Release Fanatics section), flyers must continue their charcer (same section), flyers fly over the second fanatic to complete their charge (p 68 hardback rulebook, Flying Charges section).

All done, right?

-=- Steve

Defender of Ulthuan
15-12-2007, 15:28
Nevermind... I am surely the king of simultaneos posting lol.

Belerophon709
15-12-2007, 18:08
It's been a fun discussion, but have we strayed from the original question/answer?

Flyers must land when fanatics released (p 25 O&G, Release Fanatics section), flyers must continue their charcer (same section), flyers fly over the second fanatic to complete their charge (p 68 hardback rulebook, Flying Charges section).

All done, right?

-=- Steve

If "charcer" means "charge", then yes, you are on the money.

Greyfire
16-12-2007, 14:13
If "charcer" means "charge", then yes, you are on the money.
:eek: Sorry about that. Spelling wasn't my strong suit. But it does look like it'd could be a fun house rule if we could all agree on what "charcer", or rather to charce, or to be charced, would mean. :)

-=- Steve