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Vaz84
12-12-2007, 06:22
Anyone else feel that 1,000 marines is just not enough?

To me, maybe its only 1,000 marines at war at any given time. Back on the homeworld's, maybe four to five times that number are kicking around. One reason I see this is you have say the Ultramarines, who own a whole sub-sector of the galaxy.

Kind of like "marine-reserve" so to say. You have your 1000 active marines, with 4000 unactive kicking around preparing to be called up to the front lines. Just to me it does not make good sense for 1000 men to change much in terms of battle dynamics. Especially in the massive planet wide wars we see. I understand marines are a tactical strike force, but even looking at say the battle for the ultramarines planet. How could one company, 100 men, even form a circle of defense around a massive polar fortress? That could be one marine every 10 meters if not more.

~

starlight
12-12-2007, 06:40
Nope. They just send more Chapters. :)

Remember that each Tactical Marine is a walking tank trained beyond what we consider *elite* with decades or centuries devoted to warfare. No families, no mortgage, no distractions that modern soldiers deal with. He is given absolute faith in his abilities and the best weapons available before being turned loose to sow fear and terror and destruction.

Marines don't wage war by themselves, they are the final precise hammerblow that shatters resistance after the Imperial Guard (usually) has engaged the foe.

Captain Blood
12-12-2007, 06:43
My interpretation is that there are closer to 1500 marines minimum. They always say that there are 1000 marines, but every marine roster counts 100 marines in 10 squads, a captain, chaplain, apothecary, and standard bearer for almost all companies but the 10th. Now, we still haven't counted the chapter's apothecarion, the chapel, the armory and its contingent of techmarines, all the librarians, and the chapter master. Seeing as a company at full strength is actually 104 marines, not including transport drivers and tank crews, who tend to be taken from the armory, and that this count still hasn't taken into account the dreadnoughts either, 1500, to me, sounds somewhat reasonable.

As for the Battle of Macragge, it wasn't just the Ultramarines who were at the polar fortresses. Ultramar happens to supply Imperial Guard regiments as well has having a number of PDF regiments of their own to call on. It was the marines and their PDF IIRC,

Death Before Dishonour
12-12-2007, 06:46
yeah marines are elite special forces for precision strikes, they're not really used as a garrison force and they seldome operate wholey by themselves they usually have support. Such as the ultramarines they may run a subsector but I would imagine the majority of the troops there will be local guardsmen rather then marines

The Hobo Hunter
12-12-2007, 06:51
I'm not a big marine fluff-master, but I heard from one guy that things like techmarines and vehicle crew belonged to the chapter's armoury, rather than belonged to a company. So each company would take whatever items they needed into battle from a general armoury containing things like weapons, vehicles, and crew.

Then again, this came from the same person who said that marines have their groin-piece of their armour permanently fixed to them, so I took it with a fair load of salt when I heard this.

1000 marines doesn't seem to slim to me. As someone posted earlier, the IG, and possible inquisition wage the war over the whole planet, the SM just choose which individual battles to drop into and win, so as to cripple the rest of the enemy planetwide.

If it's something really big like Armageddon, they just send multiple chapters.

pookie
12-12-2007, 08:50
a chapter is 1000 marines, remmeber their reserve companys are the ones who drive the tanks, ride the bikes/speeders etc. only in the direst circs does the full chapter take to the field and often this will be in defence of its own home world.

although this number only applys to the 'strict' codex chapters, BT would have 3000+, SW have 12 companys of around 100+ SW per company.

do not all chapters are a 1000 strong but can be much greater, some such as the Crimson Fists number a reduced amount after the Rynns world incedent.

Daredhnu
12-12-2007, 08:50
the way i see it scouts aren't counted towards the 1,000 and neither are dreadnoughts.
i see it like this.

Chapter Master + Command Squad (6)
Company Captains + Command Squads (60)
Chaplains (11)
Librarians (~13)
Techmarines (~10)
First Company (100)
Second Company (100)
Third Company (100)
Fourth Company (100)
Fifth Company (100)
Sixth Company (100)
Seventh Company (100)
Eigth Company (100)
Nineth Company (100)

and then you get scouts but again they don't count they only become marines when there is room and they prove themselves.
dreadnoughts also don't count seeing as how they ain't breathing anymore.
and the vehicles are piloted by servitors (not the brainless type) or marines taken from the company they're joining.

Slaaneshi Slave
12-12-2007, 09:12
A thousand marines is pathetically small. Even if each one is the better of 50 men any other army in the galaxy will wipe the floor with them. If the entire chapter is deployed, and each combat squad is operating entirely alone without backup that is ~200 fire teams on the ground at once. Most of them will not be in combat at any one time, so all any competent enemy needs to do is engage one element with enough men to force the Marines hand into reinforcing them, then ignore the Marines and blow up their command structures.

The only sort of war Marines can possibly fight is a Guerilla war, and every time my Grid Square Removal Service strike wipes out a platoon the Marines get weaker and weaker.

Sephtar II
12-12-2007, 09:17
1000 aint to little, as mentioned above space marines are used for specific operations only. A good example of this is the Taros Campaign, big war to retake a world with several imperial guard regiments and space marines. The marines spent most of their time on their ship and were used for one drop pod assault on a missile silo, te spear tip for a particularly nasty assault and to cover the drop zones when the guard ran away. so really you don't need much more than that for an army that basicaly is for a supporting role rather than the main one.

Brother Siccarius
12-12-2007, 09:53
A thousand marines is pathetically small. Even if each one is the better of 50 men any other army in the galaxy will wipe the floor with them. If the entire chapter is deployed, and each combat squad is operating entirely alone without backup that is ~200 fire teams on the ground at once. Most of them will not be in combat at any one time, so all any competent enemy needs to do is engage one element with enough men to force the Marines hand into reinforcing them, then ignore the Marines and blow up their command structures.

The only sort of war Marines can possibly fight is a Guerilla war, and every time my Grid Square Removal Service strike wipes out a platoon the Marines get weaker and weaker.

Well, Marines are never the top of the Command Structure which was ensured after the Heresy. The Munitorium has final say in time of war (always), even over Planetary Lords and Chapter Masters. If there's something big enough to call in the Marines there's usually already an Imperial Guard presence in the field. If it's big enough to set up command structures on the ground, then you can be assured of it.


There's also the heavily armed and armored tank, Thunderhawk, and fleet to worry about.
Sure, the fleet might not be able to be entirely accurate, but they can certainly lay waste to your command structure and infrastructure without having to be afraid of immediate reprisals.
Sure, the Thunderhawk may not be indestructible, but it can take out more than enough to justify losing a few, and getting a hold of anything that can take them out without worry of reprisal is more than difficult for most other armies.
You won't find better tanks than those of the Space Marines either, backed up by long range artillery capable of rapidly deploying defenses (minefields from Whirlwinds) in case of attack or able to act as mobile bunkers (Land Raiders).

pookie
12-12-2007, 09:55
why cant people just accept that GW states its a 1000 and that sit, i agree they should be larger, but then again i play BT so my Chapter is!

tau_caste
12-12-2007, 10:03
In C:SM it says that the marines never send the complete chapter to war, at most they send the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 10th companies to war which means 700 marines. so they dont even use a full 1000 otherwise they would effectively destroy the chapter if they failed!

A company is 106 marines! 60 tactical, 20 assault, 20 devastator, a captain and a 5 man command squad.. 104 is the old way! alot of people forget that lately.

ive always taken it to be that the 60 tactical marines are supplied into the vehicles and command squads! so my marine company is 105strong divided as follows

35 tactical marines
20 assault which is 10 assault marines, then 6 on bikes and 4 in landspeeders i think
2 devastator squads which use 5 devastator (inc sergeant) and 5 tactical taking the tactical upto 45, the other ten devastators then go to tactical squads, guns on landspeeders etc..
the last 15 men go into driving the tanks.. then i have the command crew which is techmarine, captain, librarian, chaplain, dread

i just always took it this way

Deadnight
12-12-2007, 10:21
3RD ed SM codex showed the precise disposition of the UIltramarines, pre-behemoth.

1000 marines is 1000 battle brothers. ie tactical, devestator, and assault marines. each company will also have a master, chaplain, and apothecary, and some veteran sergeants. iirc it was usually 106 or something.

techmarines and the librarium are separate, but they have 50 odd between them. inclusive of all ranks. and the big guy, the chapter master. techmarines and the acolytes drive the vehicles.

going by the 3rd ed SM codex, only one company was at full strength. One was at 75% and the rest were at about 90% strength. scout company had 87 scouts, plus 7 more in the earlier stages of training iirc. 1st co had 93 or something. and only 87 terminator suits.

Most marine companies would never be at full strength. Ultramarines in this piece had 3 strike forces out and about, and was pre-behemoth where they took a hammering. 1st co obliterated, and the 2nd through to 4th all but destroyed. it took 200 odd years to rebuild the veterans, i figure the battle companies are always at full strength (drawn from reserves) but i figure the reserves are not yet up to full strength (behemoth, kraken, eye of terror etc)

Most would have 800 odd battle brother i think at the best of times.

and yes, while 1000 is small, there are 1000 chapters out there. any big operation, and you get companies from lots of different chapters involved.

Lord Malorne
12-12-2007, 11:16
OP i agree and this has been bugging me for a while. All told one million (give or take) Space marines in the Galaxy considering there are thousands upon thousands of planets and untold practically uncountable billions upon billions of enemy's!

MAKES NO SENSE!

Now ten or a hundred million marines make sense considering the scale of war in the galaxy considering that all planets have about the same amount of population as our planet then 100 marines would take a damn site longer to subjugate a world. yes they use guard but marines don't use guard. They do there own thing and come if they want to or answer a request for aid. Let alone the numerous and varied xeno scum out there!

Thousands of habitable planets...make more marines.

Last i looked they changed Templars to roughly six thousand marines strong yet they still get as much coverage as chapters a fraction there size!

pookie
12-12-2007, 11:25
OP i agree and this has been bugging me for a while. All told one million (give or take) Space marines in the Galaxy considering there are thousands upon thousands of planets and untold practically uncountable billions upon billions of enemy's!

MAKES NO SENSE!

Now ten or a hundred million marines make sense considering the scale of war in the galaxy considering that all planets have about the same amount of population as our planet then 100 marines would take a damn site longer to subjugate a world. yes they use guard but marines don't use guard. They do there own thing and come if they want to or answer a request for aid. Let alone the numerous and varied xeno scum out there!

Thousands of habitable planets...make more marines.

Last i looked they changed Templars to roughly six thousand marines strong yet they still get as much coverage as chapters a fraction there size!

but SM are still the most elite force in the Imperium ( except grey Knights). when you consider there is a million million (or more) IG then it does make sence. they are the Spear tip, whilst the rest of the Imperium provides the Shaft and Person wielding the spear.

look at modern Forces, how many SAS are there compaired to the rest of the British Armed forces? certainly not as many. and only a small %.

Moostikal The Confused
12-12-2007, 11:29
True, in current times, for a full scale continant (my spelling sucks btw) spaning battle that didn't involve nukes, 1000 troops would be like pissin into the wind.
Now, taking the fluff into consideration as to how big a marine is, how well armed and armoured, his tactical knowledge and the advantages in survailance and communications and you have a near unstoppable monster. in todays terms.
Think of the marines not as parralell of the UK Paras but more like the SAS. True elites, not much of them but good at what they do. Loyalist marines are not going to be rampaging up and down a several thousand mile battle front takin on all comers. No, they're gonna be sittin in wait, in orbit, watchin for when they needed to fill the gap/take the bridge/kill the unkillable etc. The marines are a scalpel where the guard is a 40 pound lump hammer.

Oh, i hate loyalist marines. Smurfs more than most...

Lord Malorne
12-12-2007, 11:48
Yes i am more than aware of a marines capabilities... i collect Black Templars which as far as I'm concerned are super marines and devour all background i can my hands on.

All i'm saying is look at the enemies capabilities, weapons, fleets, technology, numbers and you will see 1,000 marines is rather paltry. And it takes about a decade to make a marine!

so making chapters 10,000 strong would make the existence of a chapter more realistic. and every time i read about x marines fighting on y planet it has several companies if not allied chapters to back them up!

MORE MARINES!

DapperAnarchist
12-12-2007, 11:55
A Space Marine has about the same ability in battle as a Humvee with a GMG on top - though not as fast over flat ground, the space marine kicks fundament in rough terrain. Now, imagine a battle line which suddenly finds it self attacked by 50 humvees and very effective support. Thats half a company of marines. That works.

malika
12-12-2007, 11:57
It might not make sense because you look at the Space Marine with the wrong idea. The Space Marine isnt a standard soldier, heck its not even an elite soldier...its somewhere way above that. The Imperial Guard and PDF are your standard military of the Imperium. They have their own elites (Stormtroopers, etc) which also carry out special missions. The Space Marines are only deployed on special occassion when their need is greatest. Space Marines are pretty rare, I think most battlezones dont even have Space Marines present, they just pop up from time to time. A single Chapter for a sector or few sectors, some areas might have more Chapters present. (Eye of Terror for example) But otherwise Space Marines are hardly seen. Its just that they are the posterboys of GW and seem to appear in every piece of fluff because they are so darn cool...

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 12:41
Marines are effective in that:
1. They have a battle fleet. Thatís their real asset. They can obliterate you from orbit and hit your fleet. Without that theyíd be less than meh.

2. good on lightly populated colonies or where the government has gone to seed. If they can wack the governor or high leadership and the populace doesnít give a CENSORED then theyíd be excellent. They couldnít stop a real rebellion with support or a more populated world.

I personally like to think of them in that mode, and add a 0. Otherwise they are shock troops as part of a much larger guard/combined arms force. If youíre following fluff that they really do hammer xenos etc. all by themselves then add another 0 or so.

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 12:45
A Space Marine has about the same ability in battle as a Humvee with a GMG on top - though not as fast over flat ground, the space marine kicks fundament in rough terrain. Now, imagine a battle line which suddenly finds it self attacked by 50 humvees and very effective support. Thats half a company of marines. That works.
Right up until they call for support and the Apaches start showing up.

Remember marines can basically take no casualties due to their incredibly low replacement rates. Your armor may be impervious but the shockwave from a passel of 40K equivalent 155s or heaven forbid a 1,000 pounder is going to make that moot.

Change that to Tau and we're talking railguns. Change to chaos and we're talking titans and their own marines. Change to Eldar and, well lets just say eldar do not fear marines.

pookie
12-12-2007, 12:50
It might not make sense because you look at the Space Marine with the wrong idea. The Space Marine isnt a standard soldier, heck its not even an elite soldier...its somewhere way above that. The Imperial Guard and PDF are your standard military of the Imperium. They have their own elites (Stormtroopers, etc) which also carry out special missions. The Space Marines are only deployed on special occassion when their need is greatest. Space Marines are pretty rare, I think most battlezones dont even have Space Marines present, they just pop up from time to time. A single Chapter for a sector or few sectors, some areas might have more Chapters present. (Eye of Terror for example) But otherwise Space Marines are hardly seen. Its just that they are the posterboys of GW and seem to appear in every piece of fluff because they are so darn cool...

Agreed, if we use terms that we all know, imaging that your avarage soldier is the equivelant of a Boy Scout ( just a tad older ) with a Catapult as there only wep, then Marines are certainly a SAS (insert other spec forces - although the SAS are the best) Equiped with a M16 with 40mm GL.

Remeber that Marine chapters are small because of the HH - 10.000 marines would be one hell of a force and would take way too to stop should they decide to turn against the Imperium.

look at Horoun (sp) and his traitors, only 200 iirc made it out of the Badab war but yet they are still a thorn in the Imperiums side.

Slazton
12-12-2007, 12:52
Lets make this quick and easy:

Space Marines never go to war without help. In the Black Library publications, they are backed up by Imperial Guard. They are the spear tip and achieve missions that no one can do. You need an enemy ship boarded? Call in a Space Marine Company.

100 Marines land on the field of battle. They shoot up their targets and leave. Or the Imperial Guard spend months upon months of a grueling pain in the neck seige and just as soon as they have a breach, the Space Marines are deployed and they enter the breach. Its cost effective.

Space Marines are a rarity and they are not always called in. Space Marines are used whenever there is actual need as they are a prescious resource. They do not do garrisons, they do not stand and fight, because Space Marines are a Mobile Attack force. Look at the bolter FFS, its made to be fired on the run as well as 75% of their weapons.

The reason you are all confused about the number is that Space Marines are the poster boys of Warhammer 40K and thus every little Timmy, Jimmy, Billy Bob, Bob Billy, Dick, Tom and Harry have a Space Marine force. Just because Space Marines are the most popular army sold does NOT change the fluff.

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 13:09
Agreed, if we use terms that we all know, imaging that your avarage soldier is the equivelant of a Boy Scout ( just a tad older ) with a Catapult as there only wep, then Marines are certainly a SAS (insert other spec forces - although the SAS are the best) Equiped with a M16 with 40mm GL.

Remeber that Marine chapters are small because of the HH - 10.000 marines would be one hell of a force and would take way too to stop should they decide to turn against the Imperium.

look at Horoun (sp) and his traitors, only 200 iirc made it out of the Badab war but yet they are still a thorn in the Imperiums side.

Of course that would be correct if you add in the boy scouts can call in artillery and have tank companies backing them up (aka boy scouts from texas).

pookie
12-12-2007, 13:09
@ Slatzon - i couldnt ( as my posts show ) have said that any better!

people are just caught up in the Uberness because of BL publications, and that they dont quite match that on the actual tabletop.

what id recommened is that people find the Movie Marine rules and then try saying that 1000 marines isnt a large force! (imo the rules for marines have never truly reflected how hard they really are)

Jfrazell - lol thats true

Slazton
12-12-2007, 13:11
You forum ninja-ed me pookie! Next time...next time....

Also I was in a rant mainly as the rules for Space Marines do not relfect entirely what a Marine is. I mean one Space Marine taking on a mob of Orks is pretty lethal and they usually win too. Marines are not easy and soft targets. However, they are just always in the lime light.

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 13:31
Yes, Ideally, marines would be as brutal and expensive as GKs. Two squads taking out an entire force-but priced in that manner.


Gaming wise a better representation to me for a stock trooper would be a GK termie. That represents their real effectiveness (and that at the end of the game they are not actually casualties fluffwise for more than a turn or two). A trooper with a H Bolter would be a Termie with 36 in range assault cannon. V3.5 codex T5 obliterators would be a termie equivalent.

Another representation would be an immortal, with someone sitting nearby with a ressurection orb. You can put 'em down, you just can't keep 'em down.

pookie
12-12-2007, 13:37
You forum ninja-ed me pookie! Next time...next time....

Also I was in a rant mainly as the rules for Space Marines do not relfect entirely what a Marine is. I mean one Space Marine taking on a mob of Orks is pretty lethal and they usually win too. Marines are not easy and soft targets. However, they are just always in the lime light.


got to be a first for me to ninja someone, its normally me that it happens to and i dont end up posting!


Yes, Ideally, marines would be as brutal and expensive as GKs. Two squads taking out an entire force-but priced in that manner.

agreed, what i challange people to is: build a marine force but use the SM Commander stats for each marine ( use the normal points tho) see how hard the force is then! ( and it still isnt truley there. )

feintstar
12-12-2007, 13:55
And add a zero to all the numbers in the dex.

I figure its a lost in translation thing. 10 Is just Imp Gothic for 100.

Even if they were all chapter masters, 100 marines could not hold ground. That's the province of the IG, i hear you say - well may that be the case, but chapters of Marines are actually often the first to a war zone because their ships are faster, and there are dozens of fluff examples of SM chapters being decisive in long drawn out sieges - Imperial Fists for one example, Ultras for another, etc etc.

Gen.Steiner
12-12-2007, 13:59
For my Righteous Fists, I worked out the following:



In total, there are 2,056 Space Marines and 55 Initiates in the Chapter. This does not count the Chapterís 5,000 serfs and its tens of thousands of servitors.

While this is well over the Ďrecommendedí number of 1,000 Marines, the Librarium has given this issue close attention since the Chapterís founding, and the result is that while the Codex specifies that there are 1,000 Space Marines in the Chapter, it is talking only of those in the Companies of 100 Ė that is, there must be 10 companies each of 100 Marines to form a Chapter. The Codex says nothing about command and support elements, and it is reasoned that this slight idiosyncracy is a small price to pay to ensure that the Chapter remains on fighting form.

pookie
12-12-2007, 14:05
Even if they were all chapter masters, 100 marines could not hold ground. That's the province of the IG, i hear you say - well may that be the case, but chapters of Marines are actually often the first to a war zone because their ships are faster, and there are dozens of fluff examples of SM chapters being decisive in long drawn out sieges - Imperial Fists for one example, Ultras for another, etc etc.

but thats were the flaw lies in the fluff, marines as we play are not able to, yet try having 50+ marines that have 3 wounds, WS5 each running around...

plus marines are not supposed to hold ground tho thats what the IG are for, they are the supposed to strike hard and fast and decaptiate a foe, not surrond it and hold it down.

ok when they do have to hold ground they do it well and better than forces like the IG could.

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 14:09
For my Righteous Fists, I worked out the following:

Righteous Fists-the Lawyers of the Emperor!

Meathook
12-12-2007, 14:09
Maybe it just me, but I tend to think of the marines not as your rank and file goons (which they are not) but more as your super elite soliders (like your Navy Seals or your covert ops guys). So while a 1000 marines may not seem like a lot, a 1000 special ops guys on one or two missions may seem like over kill.

Also doesn't the codex thingy say that they can only have 1000 marines, would this count any other people included in the chapter, such as dreads, scouts, techmarines, serfs, pilots and all the other guys that keep the marines up and running. I'm going with no, so while they may only have 1000 special ops guys showing up to ruin your day, you prolly have 2000-3000 other guys that are keeping them running by doing all the day to day tasks that they no longer bother with.

Lord Malorne
12-12-2007, 14:09
(Ghostly voice) More Marines oooohhh! come on more. They die easy and you know it.

Gen.Steiner
12-12-2007, 14:13
Righteous Fists-the Lawyers of the Emperor!

Hey, if the Ultramarines (!) can think it's OK to have Tyrannic War Vets and Honour Guards, then the Righteous Fists can damn well explain away their vehicle crews and spacecraft operators! :p

TheBlueGrassGamer
12-12-2007, 14:30
Greetings,

I remember a story at the beginning of the 3rd Edition Space Marine Codex that illustrated just how powerful a thousand marines could be.

An Inquisitor had found a heretical Planetary Lord, and wanted him dead and time was of the essence. The Inquisitor turned to the Officio Assassinorum, to deal with the heretical Lord as quickly and slyly as he could -- only to have his request denied. The Inquisitor next turned to the White Panthers Space Marine Chapter for aide, and his request was granted. However, the White Panthers didn't follow his orders for conducting the war -- they considered it only 'advice,' apparently.

The White Panthers deployed to the planet via drop pod, and utterly destroyed the PDF and local armed forces piece by piece. In fact, the White Panthers waged such a perfect war that they also destroyed the ability of the planet to meet the Administurm's tithes for around a hundred to a thousand years once a pious and loyal Lord was installed.

A thousand Marines not quiet enough? It's enough to do the job - and do it well.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 14:37
Imperium PR. You want brightly colored prettyboys you call the marines. You want destruction you call the guard. You want to end the problem forever, you call Battlefleet Gothic...

Commence Bombardment Wee ha!

This message brought to you by Chaos, its whats for breakfast.

Felwether
12-12-2007, 15:14
Good God! Why do people keep comparing Astartes to SAS and SEALS? Imperial Stormtroopers and Kasrkin are the equivalent of SAS or SEALS, Space Marines are something far beyond anything that exists today.

I didn't want to do this but someone go look at the =][= RB and check the Marine stats. A number of people seem to think they're unbalanced but to me they're the stats that most accurately represent a Marine. Think of an opponent with the strength of four men, who can see in the dark, is completely fearless (in the traditional sense) and who can shrug off most wounds without breaking his stride. Not to mention the fact that they're simply the best trained troops in the galaxy and they carry miniature rocket launchers! THAT'S an Adeptus Astartes and just think of the psychological effects of fighting something like that. You'd ***** yourself.

Felwether
12-12-2007, 15:19
A thousand Marines not quiet enough? It's enough to do the job - and do it well.

Well said!

pookie
12-12-2007, 15:28
Good God! Why do people keep comparing Astartes to SAS and SEALS? Imperial Stormtroopers and Kasrkin are the equivalent of SAS or SEALS, Space Marines are something far beyond anything that exists today.

it was me who mentioned it, i suggest you re read my posts, its laymans terms to describe how uber SM are compaired to your standard IG ( which i compaired to boy scouts)

oh and Seals are no where near SAS but thats for diffrent thread!

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 15:35
Good God! Why do people keep comparing Astartes to SAS and SEALS? Imperial Stormtroopers and Kasrkin are the equivalent of SAS or SEALS, Space Marines are something far beyond anything that exists today.

I didn't want to do this but someone go look at the =][= RB and check the Marine stats. A number of people seem to think they're unbalanced but to me they're the stats that most accurately represent a Marine. Think of an opponent with the strength of four men, who can see in the dark, is completely fearless (in the traditional sense) and who can shrug off most wounds without breaking his stride. Not to mention the fact that they're simply the best trained troops in the galaxy and they carry miniature rocket launchers! THAT'S an Adeptus Astartes and just think of the psychological effects of fighting something like that. You'd ***** yourself.

You mean vs. say fighting a tank? A tank doesn't have a miniature rocket launcher-its the real deal.

Rhino appears and lumbers forward.
40K version of TOW missile blows it into itty bitty imperial bits.
Marines claw their way out.
Marines see guard platoon, shout yarg and charge with archaic sword weaponry.
Guardsmen open up on surviving marines. Kill one marine (tragedy for the chapter). Guardsmen call in artillery from the basilisk artillery park eight imperial units away. Kill one marine (the loss may be irrecoverable for 100 years).
Surviving marines make it to guard lines. Guardsmen wisely run away.
Heavy artillery begins to rain down on the marines. Er, now what? say the marines.

Now imagine the guardsmen with tanks. Now imagine them with valkyrie/vulture and Marauder bomber fighter support.

What was that about miniaturized rocket launchers again :evilgrin:

Gen.Steiner
12-12-2007, 15:38
Except Space Marines really shouldn't be fighting like that. ;)

Felwether
12-12-2007, 15:41
@ Pookie - I wasn't referring to your post. Several other people have just flat out used SAS and such to get their point across about SMs and it's just not right I tells ya!

@ jfrazell - You seem to have forgotten that the Marines can actually fire their miniature rocket launchers...!

Frecus
12-12-2007, 15:44
In addition, let's say each chapter is good enough with numbers that they can cheat up to 1500 warriors into their chapter.

Then, assume each battlefield needs only 5 companies on average. That's hundreds of walking tanks, a number of real tanks, snipers and whatnot.

Split that, you get 3000 battlefields your marines are at at any given time. Let's say they can change planet once every year (travelling lightyears WILL take time, and lots of it). Thats 3000 'wars' they could have every year. Armageddon and cadia take up marines forever, but still, many hundreds of wars can be won each year, and new battelefields can be sought.

Split that over a million worlds, and within 3-4 centuries, every planet will have had it's share of marines.
Having a war that requires marines to do the job every 400 years is quite devastating I would think, as these are wars that combine the world wars, and then buff them some more (both wars spanned the continent, and then some, that's barely half the planet).

That's a bit how rare I see the marines.

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

pookie
12-12-2007, 15:45
@ Pookie - I wasn't referring to your post. Several other people have just flat out used SAS and such to get their point across about SMs and it's just not right I tells ya!

cool, it was me that brought that up thats all.

was just trying to use terms people were familiar with, i mean we are debating how hard a fictional fighting force is after all :angel: ;)

Felwether
12-12-2007, 15:53
@ Pookie - Good point :D

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 16:05
@ Pookie - I wasn't referring to your post. Several other people have just flat out used SAS and such to get their point across about SMs and it's just not right I tells ya!

@ jfrazell - You seem to have forgotten that the Marines can actually fire their miniature rocket launchers...!

And? Shooting a bolter out the top of a rhino is irrelevant if they've popped that rhino 2,000 meters downrange.

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 16:06
Except Space Marines really shouldn't be fighting like that. ;)


Shouldn't be but thats how the fluff is often portrayed-or even worse on foot.

One thing if the fluff had them doing such strikes only. Its another when they say three marines pacified an entire ork held planet sort of thing.

Felwether
12-12-2007, 16:07
So the marines are going to charge at a Guard platoon 2000 metres away? Yeah...

Captain Blood
12-12-2007, 16:54
Sure they would. 2000 metres and closing, at terminal velocity, straight down. Sure, their transports would probably get destroyed, but who really cares about a drop pod after the scary bits get out?

TheBlueGrassGamer
12-12-2007, 17:12
Greetings,


Sure they would. 2000 metres and closing, at terminal velocity, straight down. Sure, their transports would probably get destroyed, but who really cares about a drop pod after the scary bits get out?

I agree! But you did leave out one important bit: before the drop pods are launched, the Guard units is still a bit too tough and needs to be softened up first. Which is why the Strike Cruiser and Rapid Strike Vessels would cut loose with naval weapons batteries, dorsal bombardment cannons, and plasma torpedoes first!

Let the guard fight after plasma torpedoes have turned their C&C structure to ash, the naval guns collapsed the bunkers, and after the bombardment cannons have made the earth shake. Then let the shell-shocked survivors see the drop pods fall from the heavens and the Angels of Death burst forth to show the true fury of the Emperor's wrath.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

jfjnpxmy
12-12-2007, 17:29
Pff, I always figured they just waffle it. Each space marine chapter or legion or whatever is 1000 space marines, 20 various leader dudes, assorted mechanics, techmarines, librarians, chaplains and apothecaries and about 150,000,000 extremely large, strong, well-equipped, well-trained, fit and tough chefs. And they need those chainswords cause...uh...the lamb's kind of tough, yes. That multi-melta? Oh, it's for flambť, sir. Him over there? Brother Caliphras? No sir, he's a chef, too. His gun? Oh, that's a heavy...uh...boltificator. He brought it from home. Yes, he is actually my brother, that's why we call him that, sir. Why yes, we do need to cook a lot. It's our chapter motto, sir. "Too Many Cooks Enriches The Broth". Okay, thank you Mr. Inquisitor, it's been nice having you visit.

Supremearchmarshal
12-12-2007, 17:29
According to the infamous Movie Marines article, SM make use of stunt doubles and their bolters can punch even through titan armour :D

Oh yeah, and those rules toned them down a bit - after all they're rules for a SM movie, so the SM aren't doing their best... :angel:

max the dog
12-12-2007, 18:13
Please excuse the game for not living up to the fluff. In all reality a space marine is a walking engine of destruction who could defeat hundreds of guardsmen in less time than you and I could tie our shoes. Unfortunately it would ruin game balance so the space marine is now toughness 4 with a 3+ save.

Read Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlen if you want to read the original inspiration for space marines and tyranids.

Clockwork-Knight
12-12-2007, 19:00
Excuse the background lore for having a mere dozen guardsmen killing 5-7 Space Marines in less time than you and I could even write this things. :D

Yeah, it happened in Black Library novels, who are slowly becoming the base for the GW-codizes.

It all depends on who's the protagonist. In the Gaunt's Ghost-series, Imperial Guards beat Chaos Space Marines.

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 19:00
Greetings,



I agree! But you did leave out one important bit: before the drop pods are launched, the Guard units is still a bit too tough and needs to be softened up first. Which is why the Strike Cruiser and Rapid Strike Vessels would cut loose with naval weapons batteries, dorsal bombardment cannons, and plasma torpedoes first!

Let the guard fight after plasma torpedoes have turned their C&C structure to ash, the naval guns collapsed the bunkers, and after the bombardment cannons have made the earth shake. Then let the shell-shocked survivors see the drop pods fall from the heavens and the Angels of Death burst forth to show the true fury of the Emperor's wrath.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

You're assuming they have control of the air/space. Big assumption against everyone but an extremely lightly held colony-picking on children basically. Run them against a Sabbat world or one of the charnalhouses of the 13th crusade and a wave of Slaughter class cruisers might disagree with them :eek:

But regardless, you're saying one company can't take down a planet. They can only land after its been bombarded.

Of course once they pod in it will be embarrassing when they are swarmed by civies with molotov cocktails.

I always wondered where they supposedly garnered this knowledge of where the "C&C" was?

*eldar world-the C&C is one guy among many, preferably the dude who just fried your librarian
*chaos world- drop the bomb and they'll turn it into vienna sausage.
*chaos held normal world-how are you going to find them again? Maybe next to that giant turbo laser or in a bunker 15 miles underground. If Horus could survive the full bombardment of multiple fleets on the rock of Istvaan they could do it against a mere company.
*tyranid world. They're all C&C.
*tau world. Maybe, you'd have to catch them first.
*ork world. Whats one ork among billions? Oh wait, maybe its the guy in the battleship coming towards you...
*necron. Er nevermind.


I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying one company couldn't do it.

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 19:01
Greetings,



I agree! But you did leave out one important bit: before the drop pods are launched, the Guard units is still a bit too tough and needs to be softened up first. Which is why the Strike Cruiser and Rapid Strike Vessels would cut loose with naval weapons batteries, dorsal bombardment cannons, and plasma torpedoes first!

Let the guard fight after plasma torpedoes have turned their C&C structure to ash, the naval guns collapsed the bunkers, and after the bombardment cannons have made the earth shake. Then let the shell-shocked survivors see the drop pods fall from the heavens and the Angels of Death burst forth to show the true fury of the Emperor's wrath.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

You're assuming they have control of the air/space. Big assumption against everyone but an extremely lightly held colony-picking on children basically. Run them against a Sabbat world or one of the charnalhouses of the 13th crusade and a wave of Slaughter class cruisers might disagree with them :eek:

But regardless, you're saying one company can't take down a planet. They can only land after its been bombarded.

Of course once they pod in it will be embarrassing when they are swarmed by civies with molotov cocktails.

I always wondered where they supposedly garnered this knowledge of where the "C&C" was?

*eldar world-the C&C is one guy among many, preferably the dude who just fried your librarian
*chaos world- drop the bomb and they'll turn it into vienna sausage.
*chaos held normal world-how are you going to find them again? Maybe next to that giant turbo laser or in a bunker 15 miles underground. If Horus could survive the full bombardment of multiple fleets on the rock of Istvaan they could do it against a mere company.
*tyranid world. They're all C&C.
*tau world. Maybe, you'd have to catch them first.
*ork world. Whats one ork among billions? Oh wait, maybe its the guy in the battleship coming towards you...
*necron. Er nevermind.


I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying one company couldn't do it. Not any world of sizable consequence or resistance.

Clockwork-Knight
12-12-2007, 19:50
Of course once they pod in it will be embarrassing when they are swarmed by civies with molotov cocktails.
I highly doubt they will have any problems with civilians with molotov cocktails. :p
Also, seeing as they don't hold grounds, this will like always be the problem of the Imperial Guardsmen to deal with the hordes of raving civilians with molotov cocktails. :D

jfrazell
12-12-2007, 20:39
I highly doubt they will have any problems with civilians with molotov cocktails. :p

Why not. Odds are there were be more civvies than marines have bolter rounds. You may be a hulking dude, but if there's only ten of you, you're going to get zapped, if nothing else by some glory boy with a satchel charge. Again, if the marines take any sort of casualties then they've basically lost as their replacement rate is nearly nil.



Also, seeing as they don't hold grounds, this will like always be the problem of the Imperial Guardsmen to deal with the hordes of raving civilians with molotov cocktails. :D
Can't hold ground, can't fight a pitched battle, what exactly do they do again? :angel:

Seriously, the positive of fluff is that you can bend it to fit your personal viewpoint.

Mine:

*as the plethora of Imperial worlds are evidently thinly occupied, they can easily topple an errant noble or otherwise keep the marginal systems in line. They cannot be used in a similar manner with planets of greater significance. In a similar manner they are good against very localized xenos or chaos threats (bug outbreaks as it were).

*post Heresy marines are very effective in surgical strikes on selected targets. They can be used to take out plantary defensive systems at specific locations allowing their fleet or Imperial Navy fleets to get close enough to bombard the remaining defenses without being obliterated (think Guns of Navaronne).

*Against Xenos worlds/greater threats their use is limited to the above, to open the door for the Imperial juggernaut coming down.

*Chaos legions reflect marines in their original glory. Lots of marines, lots of heavy support, lots of combined arms. Marines are in sufficient numbers to act as true shock troops. They are the thousands of guys in the landraiders crossing no manís land under a barrage of plasma and vortex weaponry, backed by superheavies and titan/titan sized demons.

Clockwork-Knight
12-12-2007, 22:48
I was talking about the Molotov cocktail... That's not a thing to impress dudes in Power Armour. :p

Also, the rest has already been discussed all along.

jfrazell
13-12-2007, 13:02
Dudes in armor, even enclosed armor, cook just fine thank you.

Let me restate slightly. I'm not arguing that they aren't walking eating machines with heavy fleet backup.
I’m saying on their own -as is often portrayed in fluff- they would not be able to take a moderately populated similarly tech planet. The complication of more advanced xenos (or more bloody minded in the case of Nids and Orks), makes this proposition especially strong.

They could bomb the planet. They could land on the planet. They could take out an errant governor, a sort of interplanetary fedreal marshall as it were. They could support a larger Imperial assault and invasion on a planet. But in no sense of the word could they take a planet. Not with the numbers described.

Clockwork-Knight
13-12-2007, 13:22
Then, where are we each another disagreeing at all, if we all agree that Space Marines can't conquer any worlds on their own anymore (well, except the places on the planet that are worth being conquered anyway)?

Lord Malorne
13-12-2007, 13:36
Well the argument as i see it is some people believe that aprox 1,000 marines per chapter and aprox 1,000 chapters is not enough marines considering the sheer size of the galaxy let alone the myriad threats they face.

While others see it as enough and give there reasons as to why its enough and to how they are deployed.

Yet i'm one of the former. Its hard (really hard) to appreciate the scale of war in 40k and i beleive that legions should be brought back. I doubt they will but i want to convey that having the chapters return to legion size is acceptable and not overkill as some beleive.

As i said before the Black Templars are HUGE yet they are not shattering the background.

UselessThing
13-12-2007, 16:22
I think it would be fun to make Marines hard enough that a company is enough to do the job - if you are playing something like ninety-nine nights its easy to kill like thousands of dudes in one level, and if Marines can live up to the death tolls inflicted by a typical video game or Gundam character then you can easily have a squad of marines breaking up attacks of the scale of the First Day of the Somme and personally accounting for hundreds of thousands of casualties:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/12224.html

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/13582.html

(And you have to aplaud the work ethic of the minions in these things:-

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040220h.jpg

TheBlueGrassGamer
13-12-2007, 17:53
Greetings,


But regardless, you're saying one company can't take down a planet. They can only land after its been bombarded.

Actually, that is not what I said. I chose a Strike Crusier for a very specific reason: it carries approximately one full company of Space Marines and any support vehicles that the company may need.

Now if I'd have said "Battle Barge" instead of "Strike Cruiser," you'd be correct -- seeing as how a Battle Barge carries five comapnies of Space Marines. But I didn't say "Battle Barge," I said "Strike Cruiser." :p


Of course once they pod in it will be embarrassing when they are swarmed by civies with molotov cocktails.

In modern warfare, if a molotvo cocktail was thrown against a (full enclosed) APC or AFV all you have to do is stay buttoned up until the gas in the molotvo burns itself out. Baring a hit against the engine or a lucky shot into an open hatch, of course. Sure, you can argue that the gasoline could seep into the crew compartment -- but it'll have to defeat the rubber seals around the hatches first.

... considering Space Marines have been refurred to as 'walking tanks' I think a molotvo cocktail would be just as effective against Space Marine armor as it is against a tank..


They could bomb the planet. They could land on the planet. They could take out an errant governor, a sort of interplanetary fedreal marshall as it were. They could support a larger Imperial assault and invasion on a planet. But in no sense of the word could they take a planet. Not with the numbers described.

Isn't that how they've been protrayed in a lot of fluff recently? That Space Marines act as the Imperium's scalpel and the Guard act as the Imperium's hammer? While that bit in the opening of the 3rd Edition Marine 'dex credits a single chapter, a lot of the BL and IA books mention Marines operating in conjuction with the guard.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

jfrazell
13-12-2007, 18:19
No, less mass to heat up, by multiples.

No they are depicted as dealing with ork incursions on their lonesome, things of that nature(pescina as an example). Someone shall have to explain to me how they accomplish this with one company of marines.

leo_neil316
13-12-2007, 18:38
*ponders how to put his point*

AHA.

Remember halo? And how master chief wanders through armies of advanced aliens/mutant abominations with nothing but guts, genetic engineering and power armour?

Sound familiar?

And no, I don't mean 'all space marines are like spartan cyborgs' I mean 'all space marines are like master chief'. They are -that- hard.

Can the guard stand up to the space marines?

Oh hell yes. The entire cadian system is nothing if not a huge great monument to the shear military might of the imperial guard the (and here's the kicker). Single. Most. Powerful. Military. Orginisation. In. The. Galaxy.

I mean mister cranky pants has -leigons- of space marines attacking that place, look at all the numbers over 1000 meaning jack squat.

The gate stands.

Can the space marines conquer a planet?

Well I have a really good example for that.

When an inquisitor sends out a call for an exterminatus, the nearest exterminatus capable ship jumps over to do the dirty work. In the majority of cases this will be a ship of the imperial navy and, if virus bombs and cyclonic torpedos are unavalible, larger ships can carry this out by simply blasting the planets crust into paste with lance strikes.

One of the listed methods of exterminatus is 'space marine'.

Apparently it takes around a week on average, for a company of space marines to hunt down and kill every single sentient being on an earth sized planet. This is assuming a human controled world with some form of pdf as its millitary power. Theres a line somewhere from an inquisitor who ordered exterminatus and was actually kinda upset when the space marines got there first.

Something like 'Better a quick death not know before it happens than having to watch everyone you know being slowly chased down and put to the sword'.

Afterall, why would marines need to waste ammo once they'd destroyed the military and goverment types? Their seven feet of power armour and combat training that......

terrifingly,

Can run faster than you. Can see you no matter where you hide. Can hear your breath and the beat of your heart. Can rip through walls and cars and anything else you put in their way. Can -think- faster than you ever will.

You have no defence. Barring isolated incidents of chance you have no way of even slowing them for more than a few moments. They will never tire, they will never sleep and they are absolute in their conviction that you -must- die for the good of humanity.

A thousand space marines are too few?

Of course not. Because when The Emperors finest join a battle the defeat of the enemies of Him on Earth stop being a matter of men and guns and bullets and will.

They become nothing but a matter of time. And His judgement will be delivered to them all in their turn.



In my opinion of course.

jfrazell
13-12-2007, 18:50
Leo I disagree but the post was too cool to argue with.

Slaaneshi Slave
13-12-2007, 18:53
If the Marines can kill 1 person (on average) every second on an earth sized planet it will take them 190.8 years to wipe the planet clean. That is of course not taking into account the speed the initial strikes against the population centres will thin the population, or how long it will take to kill the last couple of billion.

UselessThing
13-12-2007, 19:05
If the Marines can kill 1 person (on average) every second on an earth sized planet it will take them 190.8 years to wipe the planet clean.

Ah well, when you have built up your rage enough you can trigger a special attack that takes out everyone on the screen - the trick is to stand in a major metropolitan area when you do it.

Daredhnu
13-12-2007, 20:19
well actually they don't need to kill every single sentient on the planet to condemn them to death.
if they take out all groups of more than say 500 people eventually they will simply die out seeing as how to keep on living you need a viable genepool.
if you don't have enough people to keep the genepool "clean" you'll eventually have less and less children producing even less kids of their own etc.

so in the end they die out.

and the individual marines don't hit the larger population centres they bomb those reducing them to ashes smaller settlements which wouldn't warrant the use of thermo nuclear warheads (or their 40k counterpart) those are the places the marines would land.

but this is just if they plan to exterminate the entire planet.
most of the time they just drop in kill the boss and his personal guard then retreat and strike somewhere else.

i do think that most fluff is highly exaggerated but as it stands right now they infact can and do take over worlds

TheBlueGrassGamer
13-12-2007, 20:25
Greetings,

Although a bit off topic, but if I were a Space Marine captain bent on delivering the death blow to a world I'd use a novel route: I'd attack the outlaying villages first. I'd sow as much terror as I could in the populace of the remote villages -- especially those in hard to bombard areas -- so that they'd be driven from their homes and into the next largest village. And then the next largest town, then to the city, then the next largest city, and then to the capitals and major population centers.

Once the populace was all concentrated in one place and all escape routes of the metropolis cut off , I'd unleash the plasma torpedoes, weapons batteries, and bombardment cannons of my fleet. With everyone all gathered into one place for safety from the ground forces, they'd be sitting ducks for the orbital guns.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

Daredhnu
13-12-2007, 20:32
that could also work but only with technologically more advanced societies who are naturally drawn to the larger settlements and the cave dwelling kind who'd be more inclined to go even deeper underground

Cirrus the Blue
13-12-2007, 20:50
In strictly game terms, 1000 Marines is pretty measley. In fluff and background terms, however, 1000 Marines is MORE than sufficient.

On top of that much, the Thousand Sons Legion only being 1000 strong of the Rhubric Marine variety plus Sorcerers, most of the Sorcs only take a handful if that of Rhubric along with (normally no more than 8 plus themselves) and can dessimate entire worlds with their undeniable power if unopposed by at least as many (usually many more) Imperial Space Marines.

The Marines ain't nothing to be snorted at. Think of every single action hero in every over-the-top action movie you've ever seen (Die Hard, Chronicles of Riddick, Terminator, Chuck Norris, etc.) with all their strength, cunning, luck, panache, one-liners, etc. and then put each one of them inside a suit of nai-invulnerable and ultra powered Power-Armor. Then put those particular ones on the level of 'Basic Tactical' hovering around at the very bottom of the Chapter's prowess. Just think how freaking amazing anyone who's reached the level of Sgt., Cpt., earning a Crux Terminatus, or even the almighty Chapter Master would be in comparison!! That's bloody impressive I'd say. :p

In gaming terms though, they're vastly inferior to this description... Actually, the 'Movie Marines' list is only about 3/4 (if that) as effective as Marines actually should be, but that would add up to a pretty boring and crummy gaming experience if they were actually as formidable as they're supposed to be in their background which is why they've only got a 3+ save and T4. hehe

- Cirrus

SwordJon
13-12-2007, 20:57
Uhm... since when do marines have objectives like 'drop pod into the middile of a guard company and kill stuff randomly'?

There's a lot of nonsensical ideas being thrown around here :P

DantesInferno
13-12-2007, 21:00
The point that has been missed in this topic is that of course a Chapter of one thousand Marines is not enough to conquer and hold a well defended world. The whole reason for division into Chapters in the first place was to prevent this happening: to deliberately limit the power of the Astartes to make them dependent on the other branches of the Imperium to take and hold strong worlds.

The last time the Imperium had massive armies of Astartes capable of taking whole systems by themselves, those armies were called Legions, and it ended in the most apocalyptic civil war Humanity had ever seen.

jfrazell
13-12-2007, 21:09
Uhm... since when do marines have objectives like 'drop pod into the middile of a guard company and kill stuff randomly'?

There's a lot of nonsensical ideas being thrown around here :P

Well if they're trying to get to a C&C, the C&C is not going to be in the middle of nowhere. More likely it will be in a bunker five miles down. How do they take those down again?

Unless they are chaos marines of course, in which case they're all sitting around playing cards hoping the marines will show up. Most haven't wacked a marine champion for several hundred years...



The last time the Imperium had massive armies of Astartes capable of taking whole systems by themselves, those armies were called Legions, and it ended in the most apocalyptic civil war Humanity had ever seen.

It ended? Looks behind him at the grand companies landing their millions of troops and just smiles...

Slaaneshi Slave
13-12-2007, 21:09
Uhm... since when do marines have objectives like 'drop pod into the middile of a guard company and kill stuff randomly'?

There's a lot of nonsensical ideas being thrown around here :P

A lot of deluded fanboyism being thrown around here, I believe you meant. A Marine, despite whatever upgrades he receives, is only human. Shoot him in the face and he dies.

jfrazell
13-12-2007, 21:17
Yea but Leo_Neil's was pretty good.

Daredhnu
13-12-2007, 21:20
except that to get to his face you have to go through his helmet which is more than a match for most weapons fluff wise.

and they are not only human, they are super human so that lasbolt in the face not such a problem sure it hurts and it will make sure he never gets a date again in his life (not that marines date or anything) but it also makes him very angry and you now have 600 pounds of angry super human muscle coming after you so in the end you still die. (just alot more gruesomely)

TheBlueGrassGamer
13-12-2007, 21:30
Greetings,


The point that has been missed in this topic is that of course a Chapter of one thousand Marines is not enough to conquer.

Really? The Governor of Kethra might disagree -- seeing has how a single company of the White Panthers Chapter destroyed his orbital defenses, fell upon the world like the Emperor's own wrath, slaughtered his army, destroyed his ability to produce weapons of war, stormed the Governor's place and then butchered everyone in it.

The Inquisitor who issued the order ended a communique of his superiors saying, "..unleashing [Space Marines] against any Imperial world is to use an ultimate force exceeded only by that of Exterminatus."

If I recall correctly, this is from the 3rd Edition of the Space Marines 'dex near the front of the book. I got rid of my copy, so I've been using the 'net to jog my memory. Can someone double check this information?

Thanks,
Bluegrass

DantesInferno
13-12-2007, 21:38
It ended? Looks behind him at the grand companies landing their millions of troops and just smiles...

I was referring to the Imperium's practice of having 10 000+ Astartes fighting under the same banner. Of course Chaos don't have the same qualms...:p

jfrazell
13-12-2007, 21:43
Greetings,



Really? The Governor of Kethra might disagree -- seeing has how a single company of the White Panthers Chapter destroyed his orbital defenses, fell upon the world like the Emperor's own wrath, slaughtered his army, destroyed his ability to produce weapons of war, stormed the Governor's place and then butchered everyone in it.

The Inquisitor who issued the order ended a communique of his superiors saying, "..unleashing [Space Marines] against any Imperial world is to use an ultimate force exceeded only by that of Exterminatus."

If I recall correctly, this is from the 3rd Edition of the Space Marines 'dex near the front of the book. I got rid of my copy, so I've been using the 'net to jog my memory. Can someone double check this information?

Thanks,
Bluegrass


And its this sort of thing that doesn't work and doesn't support the whole "scalpal" theory. Absent the ships the marines could have done, well pretty much none of that. So again are you really just saying its a fleet with some armored pretty boys attached? :evilgrin:

Slaaneshi Slave
13-12-2007, 22:06
except that to get to his face you have to go through his helmet which is more than a match for most weapons fluff wise.

and they are not only human, they are super human so that lasbolt in the face not such a problem sure it hurts and it will make sure he never gets a date again in his life (not that marines date or anything) but it also makes him very angry and you now have 600 pounds of angry super human muscle coming after you so in the end you still die. (just alot more gruesomely)

A Marine has a brain, surrounded by a skull. Tickle him in the brain and he dies. His bones may be denser than yours, but as evidenced by stories of Marines braking bones (the one with the Marines advancing, one brakes a leg, keeps on walking and cusses that his new armour is not as good as his old) it is not invulnerable. His armour also has eye sockets and a poorly armoured neck. Other than that, just hit it with enough force to mince everything inside it. Helmets ring like bells when struck.

leo_neil316
13-12-2007, 22:11
Nah.

Only the VAMPIRES IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAACE!!!!!! are pretty boys.

But, to put a 'space marine' in context.

The royal marine corp (founded at some point when we had the navy that pwnd everyone elses) was formed so that you'd have troops on warships ready to fight and -good enough- to get things done (establish beachheads, do recon, destroy any strategic targets of oppertunity) before the bulk of the troops got their in their slower, less heavily armed transports..........

Wait wait wait, this is all sounding familiar again.

But yeah, take that idea, make the 'marines' genetically engineered supermen with bones made out of tank armour and other just as over the top super powers (spit acid! Identify poison by taste! Never need to sleep! Survive naked in total vacum! Can't remember the rest!) then stick them in heavy gears (I love that game) and then stick 'use bigass gun toting spaceship with uber senor mcguffins, teleporters and dropships to find some' before 'strategic targets of oppertunity'.

And jfrazell, thank you, I try......

And usually fail. :D

Slaaneshi Slave
13-12-2007, 22:14
A Marine has the best equipment the Imperium can provide. He is genetically engineered to be faster, stronger, hardier than other humans. But he is still... Undeniably human. Love them, fanboy over them as much as you like, in this fictional universe they are still... human.

Clockwork-Knight
13-12-2007, 22:22
Let's not overexagerate. Space Marines still die to lasgun fire. And they don't survive in total vacuum without their power armour.

TheBlueGrassGamer
13-12-2007, 22:25
Greetings,


So again are you really just saying its a fleet with some armored pretty boys attached? :evilgrin:

No....

I'm saying a Space Marine fleet, in this case most likely a Strike Cruiser and Rapid Strike Vessesl, ferried the battle company to the world and acted as an orbital HQ for the launching of attacks against the orbital defenses. Once the orbital defense are gone, the battle company ravaged Kethra -- up to an including utterly destroying its army.

Because it bears repeating:



I chose a Strike Cruiser for a very specific reason: it carries approximately one full company of Space Marines and any support vehicles that the company may need.

Here! I'll even provide a link to the description of a Strike Cruiser. To Cleanse the Stars: Vessels of the Imperium. (http://www.specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/assets/lrb/A_ImperialVessels.pdf) Page 23.

So, you are basically decreeing that because the Space Marines use an armed mode of transportation (the Strike Cruiser) and travel in convoys (the accompanying Rapid Strike Vessels) a battle company of Space Marines cannot land on a planet and then lay waste to it? Despite that bit of fluff in the 3rd Edition Space Marine codex says a battle company of the White Panthers did just that?

Thanks,
Bluegrass

feintstar
13-12-2007, 22:51
We're saying that the 3rd ed SM fluff with the White Panthers doesn't make sense, because it is impossible for 1000 men, no matter how retardedly good, to defeat the PDF of an entire planet, especially seeing as it was mentioned in that story that the White Panthers did so by taking up defensive positions that the Guard felt compelled to attack.

Thermopylae, I hear you say. Well, Tactical Nuclear Weapons, I respond. Thing is that 100 men could hardly take and hold a suburb, irrespective of how good they are. 1000 men = ten suburbs, in constant warfare - no winners, plus eventual attrition. Problem is hit and fade tactics, and everything else in Sun Tzu's art of War. The Marines just can't be everywhere at once, and anywhere that they are Not, they're up against an insurgency. Its unwinnable.

However, this only applies to ground fighting. If Space Marines were left to do what their Name Implies, fight boarding actions in Space, then I feel that their numbers, equipment and stated capabilities would be quite reasonable.

Only thing that makes Marines worthwhile vs Planets is, as stated previously, the fleets. Orbiting Battle barges with standard Issue Cyclonic torpedoes and Bombardment cannon make surgical strikes the only thing necessary. If you kill the leadership with your surgical strike, then threaten the rest of the planet with Exterminatus, they're probably going to fall in.

Problem is when you're up against a Real War, vs Eldar or Tau or Chaos. That's when 1000 men is going to be a pitiful waste of time, at least on the ground.

Slaaneshi Slave
13-12-2007, 22:58
To know the real power behind Marines, I will quote Andromeda.

Dylan (The Captain): She [Andromeda, the warship]] can kill everybody on your planet in under two minutes.

And another one.

Dylan: How long would it take you [Andromeda] to destroy that fleet?
Andromeda: 6.25 seconds.
Dylan: That long?

The power of Marines is not their physical prowess, but the threat of their physical prowess.

The Imperial Navy have more bigger ordinance. The Imperial Guard have greater combat power on the ground. Marines have both in one small package.

SwordJon
14-12-2007, 00:02
A lot of deluded fanboyism being thrown around here, I believe you meant.

No, I didn't. But I believe there's just as much being thrown around by marine players as there is by everyone else.

Just because cleanse is a mission in the rulebook doesn't mean marines play for table quarters.

DantesInferno
14-12-2007, 00:20
Really? The Governor of Kethra might disagree -- seeing has how a single company of the White Panthers Chapter destroyed his orbital defenses, fell upon the world like the Emperor's own wrath, slaughtered his army, destroyed his ability to produce weapons of war, stormed the Governor's place and then butchered everyone in it.

The Inquisitor who issued the order ended a communique of his superiors saying, "..unleashing [Space Marines] against any Imperial world is to use an ultimate force exceeded only by that of Exterminatus."

If you're going to quote me, at least quote my whole sentence. I actually said "The point that has been missed in this topic is that of course a Chapter of one thousand Marines is not enough to conquer and hold a well defended world." This isn't at all inconsistent with a Chapter (or even a Company) single-handedly destroying Kethra's defences, since we don't know how big or well defended Kethra was.

There are plenty of worlds out there whose defences a Marine Chapter is single-handedly capable of overwhelming. The majority of worlds in the Imperium seem to have populations measured in the millions rather than billions.

And the Marines have an obvious advantage when attacking planets who have recently gone rogue. They've got a reputation across the Imperium as the actual Angels of the Emperor himself. If a planet has recently turned, a fair proportion of its population are still going to stick to their heavily-indoctrinated Emperor worship, even if secretly. It would be like if a cohort of actual angels turned up in the Middle Ages and started killing people. Your average PDF trooper is going to be scared witless if he's forced to fight what he believes is the manifestations of his god's wrath.

And it's likewise going to be much easier to convince the population to return to the fold if the Emperor's Angels have made a very visible and violent example of those who would lead the people away from the light and into darkness....


If I recall correctly, this is from the 3rd Edition of the Space Marines 'dex near the front of the book. I got rid of my copy, so I've been using the 'net to jog my memory. Can someone double check this information?

Yep, it's at the front of the 3.0 Marine Codex.

Vaz84
14-12-2007, 00:36
Logistically though, a planet the size of earth..

1,000 men, shoulder to shoulder would be a few city blocks. Using 1,000 marines alone to comb a planet would take a fairly long time. Lets say you deploy ten chapters, 10,000 marines. I could see a force of 10,000 troops being a serious force to deal with. Walking tank or not, every army out there has their own version of the walking tank.

Back to my defense of the ultramrine homeworld. Lets say the polar fortress was the size of a major city, spanning many miles. Again, lets say the entire first company, all terminators, are holding this one fortress under seige.

Tyranid swarm, ranging in the multiple millions of gaunts, hundereds of thousands of warriors, ten thousands worth of carnifex and other support beasts, a thousand tyrants and lets say fifty to a hundered titans weapon beasts. Sounds right to me when the fluff says things like "titans dragged down by sheer weight of numbers" (gaunts vs titans, ants vs lion). Even firing storm bolters, killing 4 gaunts a second or more, I just cant rationalize that only 100 men kept the nids back. Surely so, they died at the very end in the deepest darkest room of the complex.

I just cant see it, I cant see 100 men holding off an army of multiple millions (if not billions) even with a bunch of PDF and titan support.

SwordJon
14-12-2007, 00:40
I just cant see it, I cant see 100 men holding off an army of multiple millions (if not billions) even with a bunch of PDF and titan support.

Good, then. Because that's not what they do.

TheBlueGrassGamer
14-12-2007, 01:24
Greetings,


If you're going to quote me, at least quote my whole sentence. I actually said "The point that has been missed in this topic is that of course a Chapter of one thousand Marines is not enough to conquer and hold a well defended world."

It was not my intent to slight you, and I apologize if I have.

The reason that I omitted "hold a well defended world" is the task of holding a newly conquered world -- for the long term -- does not fall upon the shoulders of the Adeptus Astartes. The task of holding a world falls upon the shoulders of the Imperial Guard, the Adeptus Aribites, and any emissaries of Elessiarchy that have arrived to either safe guard holy sites or reindoctrinate the populace to the Imperial Creed.

The Astartes have their hands full, with a thousand worlds in the Imperium. Each one on the verge of falling to the Heretic, the Xenos, and the Traitor. Each a world needing to be reconquered and brought back into the Emperor's light.


This isn't at all inconsistent with a Chapter (or even a Company) single-handedly destroying Kethra's defences, since we don't know how big or well defended Kethra was.

There are plenty of worlds out there whose defenses a Marine Chapter is single-handedly capable of overwhelming. The majority of worlds in the Imperium seem to have populations measured in the millions rather than billions.

And the Marines have an obvious advantage when attacking planets who have recently gone rogue. They've got a reputation across the Imperium as the actual Angels of the Emperor himself. If a planet has recently turned, a fair proportion of its population are still going to stick to their heavily-indoctrinated Emperor worship, even if secretly. It would be like if a cohort of actual angels turned up in the Middle Ages and started killing people. Your average PDF trooper is going to be scared witless if he's forced to fight what he believes is the manifestations of his god's wrath.

And it's likewise going to be much easier to convince the population to return to the fold if the Emperor's Angels have made a very visible and violent example of those who would lead the people away from the light and into darkness....

A fair assessment. And one that I agree with.

However, I would extend the analogy a touch. Before the heavenly host would descend upon the hapless populace of the Medieval world, God Himself would rain fire and brimstone down the heads of the heretics and sinners. Only after God had spent His fury, would He allow His angels to scourge those that had survived the fire and brimstone.

The short story Angels by Robert Earl does a good job of showing how the average Imperial citizen regards the Space Marines. Of course, the fact that it was set on a Medieval world had nothing to do with the fact of why I chose it..... :D



Yep, it's at the front of the 3.0 Marine Codex.

Dammit. Now I have to track down a copy of it.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

strangeasangels
14-12-2007, 02:47
I think we also may need to define what 'conquer a world' actually means. If you take it to mean destroy every man, woman, child, small dog, and aardvarks, then no. An SM chapter probably wouldn't work out so well.

But, if your goal is to destroy the warfighting ability of a world, that's a horse of a different color entirely. While it is difficult to locate 3C nodes, it is not impossible. Surgical strikes to eliminate them is absolutely within the job description of your typical battle brother. Locating theatre level commanders? Again, difficult, but not impossible. "Who's that knocking on the bunker door?" "Some chap in honking huge armor."

Eliminating industrial capabilities is...well I hesitate to use the term 'easy' while referring to any part of combat, but factories don't really move around so much. Hard to fight a war when you can't build tanks and guns anymore.

I don't mean to fan the flames here, I'm just trying to point out how SMs would actually go about winning a war on a planetary scale.

DantesInferno
14-12-2007, 02:58
The reason that I omitted "hold a well defended world" is the task of holding a newly conquered world -- for the long term -- does not fall upon the shoulders of the Adeptus Astartes. The task of holding a world falls upon the shoulders of the Imperial Guard, the Adeptus Aribites, and any emissaries of Elessiarchy that have arrived to either safe guard holy sites or reindoctrinate the populace to the Imperial Creed.

I think everyone agrees that a Chapter of Marines is not capable of long-term pacification of moderately sized (say 100+ million people) worlds of standard Imperial techonology level, if the population and armed forces are sufficiently motivated to provide continued resistance. The Marines can certainly conduct decapitation strikes on anyone who stands against them, but if people continue to rise up to defy the Emperor, it's hard to imagine that the world could count as "pacified". And while a Marine Chapter is capable of fighting and winning pitched battles against well-armed PDF or IG forces of much greater size, it's simply a massive risk and waste of resources. Leave that to the Imperial forces who will arrive later: they're much more efficient at it (as in a Guard force may lose 100 times as many men as a Marine Chapter in beating a rogue PDF army, but still do it more efficiently in terms of overall Imperial resources spent on the issue.

Basically, the Marines' job will depend on the size of the world, and the ease with which it will be knocked into submission. Large worlds or worlds which will provide continued significant resistance are outside the capability of a Marine Chapter to pacify, and the bulk of the work is going have to be done by other Imperial organisations who can do the job more efficiently.

And this shouldn't be too much of a surprise. It was, after all, the whole point of the Codex Astartes reform that Guilliman implemented. The Astartes were
meant to be reliant on other branches of the Imperium for major operations to prevent something like the Heresy happening again.


A fair assessment. And one that I agree with.

However, I would extend the analogy a touch. Before the heavenly host would descend upon the hapless populace of the Medieval world, God Himself would rain fire and brimstone down the heads of the heretics and sinners. Only after God had spent His fury, would He allow His angels to scourge those that had survived the fire and brimstone.

Indeed.

Hellebore
14-12-2007, 03:28
The fragility of a marine force becomes apparent when they are cut off from extraction and/or guard reinforcements.

Last stands are all well and good, with the obligatory heroic poise and masculine shouts of "SPARTAAAAAA!!!!" but marines will be cut down, and that is a complete waste of resources not to mention puts a rather large hole in their commander's battle plans.

The best way for an enemy army to defeat a marine strike force is to waylay it, or tie it up and prevent it leaving.

Despite their individual resilience, a marine army is quite fragile in terms of casualty rates vs overall effectiveness. Kill even a few of them and you reduce their force multiplication by factors rather than normal numbers. Each marine is a force multiplier, but when you remove one of them, the amount of force they opposed is dumped on their brethren instead.

Hellebore

Clockwork-Knight
14-12-2007, 03:49
I think that the Imperial Armoury Volume 3-5 show how and when Space Marines are effectively used, and how they consider the losses to be grieve, but worthwile for the important military goal they strived to achieve.

strangeasangels
14-12-2007, 03:56
I think that the Imperial Armoury Volume 3-5 show how and when Space Marines are effectively used, and how they consider the losses to be grieve, but worthwile for the important military goal they strived to achieve.

I don't think Hellebore was talking about whether taking the losses would be worth it strategically, he was discussing the relative loss of force multipliers. Losing one guardsmen in a battle is a pittance and, except in extreme cases, irrelevant (except to the poor trooper doing the dieing, of course) Whereas the loss of one space marine is far more significant, specifically because of their enhanced abilities coupled with their relative rarity.

Edit: Force multiplier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplier) For those who wish to know.

Hellebore
14-12-2007, 04:08
I don't think Hellebore was talking about whether taking the losses would be worth it strategically, he was discussing the relative loss of force multipliers. Losing one guardsmen in a battle is a pittance and, except in extreme cases, irrelevant (except to the poor trooper doing the dieing, of course) Whereas the loss of one space marine is far more significant, specifically because of their enhanced abilities coupled with their relative rarity.

Edit: Force multiplier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplier) For those who wish to know.

Indeed.

A space marine might be worth 10, 20 or even 30 men, but it won't take that many to kill him, and he will not necessarily be able to kill 30 men before he dies either.

The problem with relying on quality is if you remove even a few elements the quality goes down proportionately faster than in a quantity based force.

Think of it like a graph where the marine line looks like this \ and the guard line looks like this -.

Hellebore

Clockwork-Knight
14-12-2007, 04:13
My comment wasn't directed to Hellebore, but rather as a point of consideration to this thread in general.

strangeasangels
14-12-2007, 04:18
My comment wasn't directed to Hellebore, but rather as a point of consideration to this thread in general.

Apologies for that then. What you posted is a valid consideration. Sometimes it is worth it for elite troops to 'stand and die'. And if any military entity would be capable of making that determination, I would think it would be one with millenia of combat experience.

R Man
14-12-2007, 04:26
Marines are hardly likely to fight a fair pitched battle either. They won't call up the enemy general and say: "We feel like having a war with you. Grab your tanks and artillery and we'll meet you by the river."

Marines will fight with ambushes and other dirty tricks like attacking army bases at night with low visability and while everyone's asleep. They will also use rapid strikes on supply lines and factories to make life difficult for their victims.

Nobody said Marines fight fairly.

Hellebore
14-12-2007, 04:31
Of course, no one said ANYONE fights fairly either ;)

Marines though, more than other armies would really need to fight entirely on their terms or their vulnerabilities will get them obliterated.

Hellebore

UselessThing
14-12-2007, 06:31
You boys are no fun!


The greenskins came into view, swathed in their dust cloud.

They were charging, pounding forward across the dry fields, shaking the ground with their leaden footfalls. They were vast creatures, every bit as big and robust as the giants facing them. Priad felt a knot of wonder that for the first time in twelve years, for the first time in his life, he was squaring up to an enemy that matched him, kilo for kilo, muscle for muscle.

Everything about the greenskins was oversized. Their paw-like fists, their shoulders, their snouts and yawning, howling maws. Fat lips, slabby cheeks, rotten teeth like pegs, ears as twisted and frayed as bat wings, laced with studs and rings. Some wore pot-black horned helmets, iron caps encrusted with antlers or ox horn or the curled spikes of rams. Others sported tusks the size of short-swords, curving upwards from slavering lower lips. They snorted and grunted and roared as they came on, hunch-backed, billowing rank breath and spittle ahead of them.

And they weren't even remotely green. Their rushing bodies were draped in pelts and animal skins, or shawls of mauve fibre, or cloaks of rusting chainmail. Crude armour of hide and tin cased their limbs and torsos, and bangles and necklaces danced along with their momentum. Some wore scalps and teeth and even clattering skulls as trophies. All of them had caked their flesh with war paint, with dyes of red and black and a sugary pink that dazzled in the sun. They were gaudy and bright, black and red like glowing coals, like the embers of a still-burning fire tipped out of the grate, rushing out across the hearth stone.

In their beringed fists: cleavers and axes, pikes and halberds, mauls and bitten blades rank with dried blood, the pommels and hilts streaming chains of beads and human fingerbones. Some carried firearms - crude bolters and broad-nosed cannon. As they closed in, a ponderous avalanche of metal and meat, they began to fire.

Shots tore past the waiting Snakes. Missiles shrieked in the air. Hard rounds burst and shattered off armour and shields, denting and tearing the smooth curves of perfect, polished plate. The random flash and spark and crack resembled a munitions store accidentally touched off.

Twenty metres. Ten.

Aim for the heads! And fire!' Petrok cried. The fifty ready guns of the phratry let rip into the oncoming tide.

Bolters chattered. Plasma guns whined and spat. Flamers retched and spewed.

Death rushed out to greet the storming greenskins. The front of the line went over, tumbling, thrashing, ichor spurting into the air from bursting bodies. Those in the second rank trampled the bodies of the first underfoot until they too were brought down by the relentless fire and met the same fate under the hobnails of the third rank, and the fourth.

The bodies piled up, limp and wet, crushed to an oozing pulp by the weight of numbers behind. Ork feet slipped on compressed corpses, struggling for purchase. A wall began to build as the greenskins, the Painted Ones, scrambled to ascend the growing litter of dead to get at the shining human line. A stench of death, a cloying mix of decomposed vegetation, slime and stomach acid, filled the air. The feral enemy warriors clawed through the dead limbs and entrails of their fallen comrades in a stupefying frenzy to meet the human foe. They hacked through the blubber and flesh of the dead, only to be killed by the next salvo of bolter fire.
Centimetre by centimetre, this wave of the dead, the dying and the still alive was crawling towards the Ithakan line, until there was no longer any time for the phratry to reload again.

'Close combat!' Petrok ordered. He stood at the centre of the line, the mighty warblade Bellus raised in his mailed fist.

The Snakes tossed their bolters onto the ground behind them, where the armourers could reach them, and plucked their sea-lances from the soil.

'Address!' Petrok bellowed.

The lances, all fifty, swung forward, glinting in the bright light, and lowered as one to face the enemy, staves clattering and clinking. The brothers brought their combat shields up and hoisted their lances above their right shoulders.

'Strike!' Petrok yelled.

The flowing torrent of swinekin, breaking the air with their howls and violating it with their odour, reached the Ithakan wall. The Iron Snakes began to stab forward with their lances, repeating powerful overhand thrusts that punched their lance tips into chainmail and leather hauberks and meat. The hafts shivered from the multiple impacts. Dark blood the colour of rubies jetted into the roiling dust.

There was a jarring moment of impact, an actual crash of bone and metal, as the ork horde piled into the Iron Snakes. The shock force caused a few of the brothers to step back and brace themselves, but the line held firm. The lances began to jab and jab with renewed vigour. It was impossible to miss, so dense was the press of orks at their shields. Lance tips gouged through shoulder plates, through helmets, pinned limbs to bodies, burst gore out through backs. It became increasingly hard to wrestle the lances free.

The pressure increased. Greenskins at the back of the torrent shouldered in to reach their enemies, impelling forward those ahead of them with their shoves. Many corpses remained upright against the Ithakan shields, pinned by bodyweight and unable to topple. Some orks began to clamber over the heads of the front ranks in their enthusiasm to sample combat.

As the line of brothers milled the foe with their lances, the boy slaves and armourers rushed in at their heels, ducking to dodge stray missiles and wild shots that penetrated the line. Bolters, hot and smoking, were gathered up from the dust and reloaded, and fresh sea-lances planted in the shadow of the human wall.
For each Iron Snake, there was no sense of general battle. The combat was so close that the only concern was the space immediately in front of him, a space permanently filled with screaming, wriggling hostiles. No man could see further than his own arm's length. It was like fighting alone, except for the arm plates and shields on either side.

An almost tropical heat gathered in the close quarters of the front line, generated by bodies and blood and explosives. The line of dispute, the slender bloody thread where the killing was focused, sweltered like a butcher's shop in summer. The fronts of the Iron Snakes' armour were slippery with alien gore.
The veterans accepted this tight, frenzied combat. Their breathing and pulses slowed as they closed focus, concentrating only on the next jab and the next, expertly determining the vital order of priority with which the raving targets needed to be addressed. Not simply the closest, but the ones with the longest reach. Orks with firearms or pikes took precedence over frontrunners with cleavers. Their visor displays selected and prioritised targets, flickering and switching.
The newcomers fought to remember the tenets of their training. Nothing could prepare a man for this claustrophobic fury. Some began to sing to concentrate their minds, and fend off the whirling blur of violence that could entrance the unwary with its chaos. Their voices crackled tinnily from their helmet speakers.
Shields deformed as blows rained upon them. Hatchet blades broke and remained stuck in place. Impacts glanced off chest plates and shoulder guards, leaving great dents and gouges. The first lances began to break and crack.

Priad felt his lance shaft give, and he stabbed out with the broken end to make a last impale before letting the weapon go. Raising his scored shield higher, he began to lash and strike with his lightning claw, spilling greenskins onto the soaking earth, slicing them asunder and causing them to spasm and contort with the searing charge. One huge beast, unarmed, lurched at him, biting, and Priad brought his shield up. The ork bit into its lower rim with its huge tusks, and Priad ripped his claws through the meat and gristle of its neck, unleashing a cascade of arterial fluid. A chain-axe mowed at his head, and he raised his power claw to block it, splintering the weapon out of the air.

He wondered how much longer the enemy could maintain the pressure. He was waiting for the ebb, the slight relaxation. He knew Petrok was waiting too. It would come, as surely as the tides of the sea came and went.

He felt it. The weight against his front relaxed. The greenskin charge had finally lost momentum and was leaking backwards like a spent breaker. The enemy was not fleeing or even turning, but it was recoiling as a mass to renew its fury. Corpses held upright by the pressure keeled over or slithered to the earth. Steam rose. A mangled pile of bodies sprawled at the feet of the Ithakan warriors. A moment's hiatus, part of the natural punctuation of warfare.

'Arms!' Petrok shouted, knowing they had to capitalise on this break at once.

The Snakes turned, those still bearing twisted and bent lances tossing them aside, and accepted their reloaded bolters from the waiting slaves. They swung back into place, freeing breech blocks with a staccato clatter. The greenskins were already surging back, their voices rising again.

Petrok didn't need to give the order to fire. The phratry, even the newcomers, knew precisely when to commence. Muzzle flashes lit up like starbursts down the gore-drenched rank, punching heavy shots into the returning mob. A second shooting blitz began, mowing down the greenskin numbers like corn before the scythe.
Munitions spent once more, the Snakes threw down their bolters where the armourers could recover them, and drew up their second lances. The Painted Ones were coming into reach again, stomping and sliding over the mounds of the slain.

'Address!' Petrok commanded, and the fresh sea-lances rattled up over shoulder plates, razor-tips aimed forward in the stabbing grip.

'Step!' Petrok ordered, and the line took a step forward on the left foot, meeting the crush head on and smashing their lances into the face of it.

'Step!' Petrok echoed, and the line took another step, left foot again, bringing the right up to meet it. Another flurry of stabbing lances, another shiver of impacts on their shields.

'Step!' Again they moved, shoving forward into the mass, puncturing faces and throats, elbowing bodies off their shield guards. By sheer force of arms and backs, they had carried the line forward well beyond the original clash point, leaving the heaps of cadavers behind them.

'Step!' Fifty sea-lances smote down, stabbing high and over, spearing through chests and disembowelling bellies. 'Step! Step! Step!'

The second batch of sea-lances was reaching the end of its usability. Blade tips were blunting, breaking or twisting out of true, and hafts began to snap and fracture. The weight on the brothers' shields was immense. They were no longer standing to resist, they were forcing back.

'Hold the line! Blades at will!'

The necessary order, before all advantage was spent. The Ithakan line, like a dam in a river, locked up tight again, shoulder to shoulder, and the brothers finished their lance work, discarding their broken spears as it became necessary and switching to their fighting blades, squealing the swords out of their scabbards, metal against metal.

The sound of combat altered, another natural sea-change in the flow of war. Predominant now was the ragged, arrhythmic noise of swords hacking, of blades hammering and chopping into bodies, each brother slicing and tearing with his short combat sword.

The murderous, chopping effort lasted for twenty minutes, the Snakes bludgeoning into the foe wall like woodcutters assaulting a thicket, severing and decapitating, shearing trunks and splitting shoulders. The edges of their swords began to dull and chip.

And then it was done. The host of the Painted Ones dwindled, and then disintegrated.

The greenskins had not broken, at least not en masse. Such practice was as alien to their mindset as they were alien to the humans. A few stragglers capered and limped away, some dragging bodies, most dragging pilfered weapons of value from the slain.

The Iron Snakes had cut their way through the entire mob of them, chewing the ranks apart from front to back, consigning to death every monster that dared to face them. Each wave thrown at the peerless wall of human warriors had suffered, their numbers eroding down further and further until their tidal force was all spent and their strength expended. The greenskin host that had chanced upon Pyridon had been exterminated in one solid, brutal clash.

The Snakes came to a standstill, gasping and sore, flushing ichor out of their helmets' valves, clearing optic slits of blood and shreds of meat. Slowly, they realised what they had accomplished. Behind them, for a distance of about three acres, the earth was piled six or seven deep with the enemy dead, stinking slopes and mounds of carrion, gurgling as waste and fluid leaked out and turned the ground beneath to a quagmire.

They heard distant cheering. The armourers and slaves were yelling and rejoicing, brandishing lances in the air, banging plate hammers on fresh shields. One by one, the brothers of the Snakes raised their fists, raised their blood-smeared, nicked short swords. Helmets were unlocked and cast onto the ground, exposing faces ruddy and sweaty with effort and confinement, hair plastered to scalps, fierce bright eyes.

The brothers raised a howl of their own, their first of the battle and the end note of victory.

Priad, alternately whooping, and spitting stale phlegm from his mouth, looking up and down the disjointed line. There were wounds, torn armour cases, shields splintered down to the boss nubs, red blood mingling with the moss-green cake of ichor on everything and everyone.

But not a single man in the five squads had fallen.

He raised his tattered shield, shaking it aloft in triumph, and felt it heavy and unbalanced. The severed head of the biting ork was still attached to the rim, its tusks and peg teeth locking to the shield in the rictus of death.

He prised the great jaws free with effort, and tossed the mangled mass onto the dirt.

Then, unbidden, he thought of a black dog in a meadow and turned to find Petrok.

SpaceLanceCorporal
14-12-2007, 06:38
If the Imperium consists of a million worlds as the rulebook says, that is one space marine from each of the thousand one-thousand man chapters for each planet. I dont care if they are imperator titans that is clearly not enough especially considering crusades that have been launched, exploratory fleets, under-strength chapters and garrisons. The problem stems from brits thinking that the napoleonic era was the height of military development. Don't believe me? Look at Dieppe or The Somme.* Not to offend but "the Empire" has shown considerable deficiencies in understanding the concept of land warfare.
* Or any land battle fought by entirely imperial forces in WW1 or 2.

Clockwork-Knight
14-12-2007, 06:41
Ah yes, truly, a Dan Abnett story, with his own Mary-Sue-Marines. But what has that to do with the discussion?

Hellebore
14-12-2007, 06:43
You should read the kick-ass story I wrote about 5 mobs of orks fending off an entire marine chapter with pointy sticks, it was awesome. :cool:

Hellebore

BrainFireBob
14-12-2007, 07:09
Right up until they call for support and the Apaches start showing up.

Remember marines can basically take no casualties due to their incredibly low replacement rates. Your armor may be impervious but the shockwave from a passel of 40K equivalent 155s or heaven forbid a 1,000 pounder is going to make that moot.

Actually, that's the part of their fluff I most like.

Most of a Marine's organs just make him really hard to kill. That warmachine might put him temporarily out of condition- but to kill-kill him takes a considerable amount of doing. Especially with their accelerated healing abilities. I always thought that all Marines were somewhat like 1K Sons- they just keep getting back up . . .

UselessThing
14-12-2007, 07:23
Ah yes, truly, a Dan Abnett story, with his own Mary-Sue-Marines. But what has that to do with the discussion?

Well, largely that I do think Mr. Abnett has successfully identified what a Marine fanboy wants from their stories, which isn't mealy mouthed explanations of why Marines aren't all that but instead unapologetic excess.

Possibly because he isn't so invested in it he doesn't feel bad about writing the ultimate Marine fantasy.

(Well, I mean, not the ultimate because you can go up from there. Stealing from God of War, we can easily see a dead Marine with unfinished business fight his way out of the Warp, kill Khorne and replace him as the Power of Battle. But hey, it is a step in the right direction. Either way, I think it far more entertaining to embrace the Marine Mythology, and see how far you can push their 'ardness before the world snaps beneath their might!)

Isn't the ultimate Ork story more one of an unstoppable green tide? Obviously an Ork Warlord, infused with Da Power of da greatest WAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH the galaxy has ever seen, green and massive, could go toe to toe with any Marine primarch at the climax of Green Storm Rising, the new blockbuster coming this fall...

jfrazell
14-12-2007, 11:48
Greetings,
.pdf"]To Cleanse the Stars: Vessels of the Imperium.[/URL] Page 23.

So, you are basically decreeing that because the Space Marines use an armed mode of transportation (the Strike Cruiser) and travel in convoys (the accompanying Rapid Strike Vessels) a battle company of Space Marines cannot land on a planet and then lay waste to it? Despite that bit of fluff in the 3rd Edition Space Marine codex says a battle company of the White Panthers did just that?

Thanks,
Bluegrass

But thats the fanboyistic nonsense that mandates that there be more marines than represented. Absent the naval assets 100 marines is amazingly statistically insignificant. They may be able to inflict casualties but so what? *The Russians lost millions of men in WWII. They kept going.
*The US literally bombed Germany and North Vietnam back into the stone age. They kept going.
*The US took Iraq in days. DAYS. And years later, fighting continues.

Marines are good. Real good. As pathfinders for an Imperial force, as executioners of a governor, investigators of a hulk or a tiny colony with no real military. But they can't lay waste to a planet on their own, which is what you are arguing above. It just can't happen.

Hence the need for larger numbers.

UselessThing
14-12-2007, 12:28
Absent the naval assets 100 marines is amazingly statistically insignificant.

That depends upon how hard they are doesn't it...

jfrazell
14-12-2007, 12:41
No. It doesn't. 100 guys just ain't gonna cut it. 100 tanks wouldn't cut it, why would 100 dudes in suits?

leo_neil316
14-12-2007, 12:53
Oh come on. According to ole Dan trooper Mkvenner could have killed all those orcs in hand to hand all by himself.

I mean assuming that try again bragg didn't wander past with a hellstorm cannon and fry all the orcs first.

But I'll say it again jfrazell. (mainly 'cause I like this discution, lots of different opinions getting bandied about :) )

Marines are superhuman, not 'merely human' or 'almost human' superhuman.

Can you kill one by shooting him in his unprotected face with a lasgun?

Sure you can. You can kill just about everything by shooting it in it's unprotected face with a lasgun, lasguns are great like that.

Theres still fighting going on in iraq this is true.

Of course the marines would just kill everyone if it was them doing it.

The us bombed germany flat? (And I'm just going to leave that one as is rather than try and point out that plenty of other countries were bombing germany to bits before american joined the second world war).

Sure they did.

They weren't using guns that can crack the planet open like an egg shell though. I mean, bombing some cities every night and inflicting huge structural damage and numerous casualties is one thing.

Getting up in the morning to find out that every single large population center in the country has been reduced to several hundred meters of fine ash in the bottom of a few kilometers deep crater is entirely different.

Oh and slaneshi slave, g.w disagrees with you on what space marines are capable of......

Phase 16 – Mucranoid. This small organ is implanted in the lower intestine where its hormonal secretions are absorbed by the colon. These secretions initiate a modification of the sweat glands. This modification normally makes no difference to the Marine until activated by appropriate chemotherapy. As a result of this treatment, the Marine sweats an oily, naturally cleansing substance which coats the skin. This protects the Marine against extremes of temperature and even offers a slight degree of protection in vacuum. Mucranoid chemotherapy is standard procedure on long space voyages and when fighting in vacuum or near vacuum.

From http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/2/ , all the different shintz they put in marines and what they do.

Did you know they can chew through iron bars? And hey that mucranoid thingy would probally help against motlov cocktails (or weapons grade flamers) cause hey, can't bake alive in your armour if your capable of taking the heat right?

UselessThing
14-12-2007, 13:14
Oh come on. According to ole Dan trooper Mkvenner could have killed all those orcs in hand to hand all by himself.

That is because the Big A understands the audience he is writing for... :0)

I say it's a game. Each person waxes lyrical about how mighty Marines are and the next has to top it:-


When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for Marines.

Marines don't read books. They stare them down until they gets the information they want.

There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Marines have allowed to live.

Marine do not sleep. They wait.

Marines are the reason why Waldo is hiding.

When a Marine does a pushup, he isn’t lifting himself up, he’s pushing the Earth down.

Marines are so fast, they can run around the world and punch themselves in the back of the head.

A Marine's hand is the only hand that can beat a Royal Flush.

A Marine can lead a horse to water AND make it drink.

Marines don’t wear watches, They decide what time it is.

A Marine gave Mona Lisa that smile.

A Marine can slam a revolving door.

Marines do not get frostbite. Marines bite frost.

Then, one has to imagine a world where all these things are true...

xiophen
14-12-2007, 13:38
And again as mentioned by others above chewing bars woo hoo big deal. People Here keep talking about the Uberness of a space marine but fail to grasp the scale of how big a galaxy and even a "mere" million worlds are. 100 Imperator titans, 100 emperor class battleships is insignificant.

Gw has horrid scalling issues in the current version. If You were to take a look a million worlds stretched out over the milkyway galaxy is nothing the galaxy has over 200 Billion *yes thats a B* stars. Thats Still a mere .005% of the galaxy being populated and controled by the imperium.

FRom what Ive read the majority of the planet in the imperium give or take are the size of modern earth. So just using the earth as a basis there would be... 6.0 x 10^14 thats a lot of people again your average space marine no matter how uber is still insignificant in comparison.


Now this wouldn't be to bad if it was in a relativly compact cluster arround the earth then you would have a decent empire but gw has them stretched over the entire galaxy when you view their maps

On the plantary scale Gw is great but when it comes to anything galaxy spanning well there is alot to be desired.

jfrazell
14-12-2007, 13:52
Oh come on. According to ole Dan trooper Mkvenner could have killed all those orcs in hand to hand all by himself.

I mean assuming that try again bragg didn't wander past with a hellstorm cannon and fry all the orcs first.

But I'll say it again jfrazell. (mainly 'cause I like this discution, lots of different opinions getting bandied about :) )

Marines are superhuman, not 'merely human' or 'almost human' superhuman.

Can you kill one by shooting him in his unprotected face with a lasgun?

Sure you can. You can kill just about everything by shooting it in it's unprotected face with a lasgun, lasguns are great like that.

Theres still fighting going on in iraq this is true.

Of course the marines would just kill everyone if it was them doing it.

The us bombed germany flat? (And I'm just going to leave that one as is rather than try and point out that plenty of other countries were bombing germany to bits before american joined the second world war).

Sure they did.

They weren't using guns that can crack the planet open like an egg shell though. I mean, bombing some cities every night and inflicting huge structural damage and numerous casualties is one thing.

Getting up in the morning to find out that every single large population center in the country has been reduced to several hundred meters of fine ash in the bottom of a few kilometers deep crater is entirely different.

Oh and slaneshi slave, g.w disagrees with you on what space marines are capable of......

Phase 16 – Mucranoid. This small organ is implanted in the lower intestine where its hormonal secretions are absorbed by the colon. These secretions initiate a modification of the sweat glands. This modification normally makes no difference to the Marine until activated by appropriate chemotherapy. As a result of this treatment, the Marine sweats an oily, naturally cleansing substance which coats the skin. This protects the Marine against extremes of temperature and even offers a slight degree of protection in vacuum. Mucranoid chemotherapy is standard procedure on long space voyages and when fighting in vacuum or near vacuum.

From http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/2/ , all the different shintz they put in marines and what they do.

Did you know they can chew through iron bars? And hey that mucranoid thingy would probally help against motlov cocktails (or weapons grade flamers) cause hey, can't bake alive in your armour if your capable of taking the heat right?

And again, the original fluff noted them doing this on their own without the fleet. They don't have guns that can crack open the continental crust. Their average gun is worse than a common heavy bolter that every PDF squad and his mamma will be running around with.

I take it back. Marines are great. They are unstoppable. One marine with a nail cutter can destroy a hive world infested by genestealers hopped up on ork steroids. Orks run from them they are so powerful. Ancient stargod led minions that can disintegrate matter still run because the marines are uber and can use their teeth to chew through a jail cell. Titan legions don't have a chance because they can be sneaky and ambush them with their lascannons(sneaky despite wearing bright yellow etc.)
Yea... ok.

EDIT: I forget myself. For those who prefer this level of uber marine fluffiness then more power to you-everyone's entitled to their own vision.
We'll just have to settle the dispute on the table. My eldar say marines fall like rain, my demons say their souls are especially tasty with a nice cabernet, my Zinc Warriors continue to wonder why Imperial Fists have white uniforms that turn yellow when the shooting starts, and my guard just continue the mantra "not the face! not the face!"

TheBlueGrassGamer
14-12-2007, 15:34
Greetings,



And again, the original fluff noted them doing this on their own without the fleet. They don't have guns that can crack open the continental crust.

Well, the original fluff is no longer the current fluff.

The original fluff for Battle Fleet Gothic specifically mentioned Space Marines as one of the appeals tables that an Imperial player could roll on during a campaign. If the Space Marines agreed to aide the Imperial fleet, they might do anything from training the naval crews in how to be more effective boarders up to and including actually stationing a squad of Space Marines on a capital ship in the Imperial fleet.

However, the fluff for Battle Fleet Gothic changed when Specialists Games released Battle Fleet Gothic: Armada. The Space Marines received their own fleet lists that includes Battle Barges, Strike Cruisers, and Rapid Strike Vessels. The Battle Barges are described as being able to carry five companies of Space Marines while the Strike Cruisers can ferry only a single company into combat.

But I do have a question: How long has the Dark Angels background mentioned the Destruction of Caliban? If the Destruction of Caliban has been around awhile, doesn't sort of prove that Space Marines have had their own fleets for quiet sometime? Never mind the fact that the Destruction of Caliban a feat achived by the fleet's guns (which is the type of guns I believe leo_neil was talking about).

Thanks,
Bluegrass

leo_neil316
14-12-2007, 15:53
I did indeed mean the good old weapons batteries and lance turrents and (really annoying) bombardment cannons of the marine space craft, not the things they take down to the planet....

I mean sure the navy can do it bigger and better and with more style (and abbadon with again more of each) but they can still do it.

As for scale issues. Yeah, g.w does have a problem with this.

Of course it goes far past marines. I mean are we really supposed to belive that in a galaxy of a million worlds this huge, uber, planetwide, weeks long battle for the soul of an entire world known as medusa was infact about as bloody as the first thirty seconds of the battle at the somme?

And yes we are all entitled to our opinion. The people who make the game say 1000 marines is plenty and we can talk back and forth about how well we can comprehend this but it won't make any differance.

Still good for killing twenty minutes a day though.

Edit: For a good idea of just how many people are in the imperium, a guy I know sat down and worked out that (assuming 5% of planets will be hive worlds with larger populations and blah blah, there was alotta math) somewhere around an american billion people join the imperial guard every hour. Thats everyone in china, every hour.

Clockwork-Knight
14-12-2007, 16:06
Of course, as many do die in grueling battles and/or are lost in Warp transit, by pirate raids, or simply are never shipped thanks to the huge inefficiencies of the Administratum.

jfrazell
14-12-2007, 16:06
What I am asaying is there is fluff that they use their ships . there is other fluff that they have miraculous powers (as I noted) without resorting to ships. When I say marines couldn't do that on their own, then the reply seems to invariably be-well they have ships. When I state that at that point they're really just escorts for the fleet, then I get no they can can an entire world by screaming "SPACE MARINES HURR!!!"

Again, its all personal though and each to his own. You want uber marine powers activate-cool. You want unstoppable nids-cool. you want uber powered Kroot-well you're SOL :)

UselessThing
14-12-2007, 16:19
"SPACE MARINES HURR!!!"

Now you're feelin' it!

:-)

TheBlueGrassGamer
14-12-2007, 16:55
Greetings,


When I state that at that point they're really just escorts for the fleet, then I get no they can can an entire world by screaming "SPACE MARINES HURR!!!"

And whenever I say: "The Space Marines have their own fleet, which includes capital ships and escort craft." I get the response of 'But because they have to use ships, a single company of Space Marines can't take a planet because they aren't alone!'

If a single company of Space Marines were going to scourge a planet, I'd see it as two different battles or fights. The first is orbital, and laid at the feet of the Chapter's servitors and serfs. The second is the ground war, fought by a company of Space Marines. I'm taking one liberty, though: the world in question has only recently turned from the Emperor's light (I'm assuming Kertha would be an example of this kind of world).

As soon as the Strike Cruiser and it's attendant Rapid Strike Vessels drops out of the warps, the first task of the Space Marines is to knock out the orbital and space-borne defenses. The Space Marines would accomplish this by boarding the space stations and system defense ships or by simply unleashing the weapons batteries.

Once the Space Marines knock out the orbital and space-borne defenses, the Strike Cruiser and Rapid Strike Vessels move in closer to the planet. This is done for two reasons: the need to be within range to start establishing a beach head with Thunderhawks and drop pods, and the big guns of the fleet aren't tired yet.

Assuming that the PDF sensors have picked up on the fleet -- or at least happened to look up and see their defense fleet getting mauled -- the call will go out that the PDF soldiers should head toward their armories and vehicle yards. Which have been detected by the Space Marine fleet's own sensors. The guns of the Space Marine fleet begin pounding these vehicle yards, armories, and any ground-based weapons that pose a threat to the fleet.

The crew of the Space Marines fleet is made up of the Chapter's servitors and serfs, since there are only a hundred Space Marines in the company and they have more important things to do -- such as assaulting the planet below.

Now, there is where I agree with DantesInferno. The common populace (from which the PDF solider is drawn from) of an Imperial world is heavily indoctrionated in the Imperial Creed, and they know that the Space Marines are the Angels of Death and deliver the Emperor's wrath down upon the heads of the heretic and the sinner. And, right about now, the populace is knows they screwed up. And screwed up big.

The average person probably cannot see the space vessels orbiting them with the naked eye. They can, however, see the plasma warheads and shells from the naval guns hurtling through the atmosphere to smack into world with thunder and fury. They don't see the weapons being launched by the fleet as, well, weapons being launched by the fleet. They see them as fire and brimstone falling from the heavens as a sign of the Emperor's displeasure.

The PDF solider is probably scared witless right about now. Fire and brimstone is falling from the skies, his immediate superiors are only so much ash thanks to a plasma warhead, and he probably can't get to his guns. Those rare few PDF soldiers that can get to the armories and have, at least, a battalion level command structure aren't much better off. The higher ups are at the bottom of a recently made creator, the support structure for the army is gone, and fire and brimstone is falling from the heavens.

And now, to top it off, the Angels of Death appear. By this time, the PDF is probably leaderless, hordes of men, armored vehicles, and armories have fallen prey to the orbital guns, and the average solider is scared witless. What weapons the PDF has isn't likely do a right and proper job of killing a Space Marine. A few lucky shots might kill several of them, but there are still more coming. And every shot that doesn't hit or hurt a Space Marine only reinforces the dogma of the Imperial Creed: nothing can hurt the Angels of Death.

As needed, squads of Space Marines board Thunderhawks to be ferried around the planet or the orbiting naval guns are given other targets. Most likely, the PDF is slaughtered to a man. Their job done, the Space Marines are gone.

They've acted as the vanguard for the Imperial force sent to reclaim the world, which means that the task of garrisoning the world falls to the Imperial Guard, the Adeptus Aribites, and Ministorium delegates that have to reindoctrine the populace and guard holy sites.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

Clockwork-Knight
14-12-2007, 17:04
Keep in mind that some planets do have void-shields to protect their capital cities from orbital bombardement, and sometimes also have ground defenses against orbit threats, like missiles and defense lasers... with pompous names. :D

Witchfire
14-12-2007, 17:08
your forgetting that 1 marine is worth 10 men-

'' give me 100 space marines or 1000 of any lesser troop''

warmaster_dan
14-12-2007, 17:11
your forgetting that 1 marine is worth 10 men-

'' give me 100 space marines or 1000 of any lesser troop''

And is any marine force times 10 still enough to conquer a planet?

imperial_scholar
14-12-2007, 17:17
Seeing as a company at full strength is actually 104 marines, not including transport drivers and tank crews, who tend to be taken from the armory, and that this count still hasn't taken into account the dreadnoughts either, 1500, to me, sounds somewhat reasonable.

The 10th actually is aloud to be as large as it wants as the rate of recruitment can vary based on quality of recruits and the need to replace battle losses. Actually if you read Imperial Armour Volume 2, drivers are select amongst the company that the vehicles are attached too. Every Marine learns how to drive a Rhino.. and from there Marines may specialize. Other than that... Rhinos Require 1 crew man and predators 2.. the vindicator might only need 1 driver. Land Raiders have 3. Thus I'm sure thunder hawks (Require 1 pilot?) are also selected amongst the comapny personel. In real life Abrams drivers are full fledged soldiers as well. They do foot slogging in Iraq along side everyone else. So tank drivers are not 'reserved'. Also... Dreadnoughts come from the 'Armoury' and don't count towards or against the armoury.


Thus this furthers the arguement that how can a company of space marines hold ground.

Well.. Marines are Elite. If you've ever played a game against IG (about 1000 points) you can see how 1 squad can hunker down and hold half the board on its own. The fact they can do it all (shoot & fight close combat) you don't need as many men on the board holding flanks while attacking or whatever. Thus a 5 man squad could probably hold the area against an attack of equal strength within their range. They may not need to stand shoulder to shoulder to encircle an enemy. Think more about fields of fire.

Tanks for deployments/crusades/missions are selected by the Master of the Armoury (In the case of the Ultra Marines 3rd company captain (page 118 Apocalypse)) before they depart from the home world. The Master of the Armoury decides which equipment goes to which company.

Reading some of the 2nd edition stuff... they use to say a Marine fights like 10 men. Thus a combat squad of 5 men would fight like an IG platoon. How the Marines fight come into it too... they are the 'Surgeons Scapal' not the 'Hammer and Anvil'. They wouldn't encircle a position... they'd fall on it from the sky.




In C:SM it says that the marines never send the complete chapter to war, at most they send the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 10th companies to war which means 700 marines. so they dont even use a full 1000 otherwise they would effectively destroy the chapter if they failed!
Also to defend their homeworld (Ref. The Seige of the Fang). The exception to the Rule is the Black Templars who leave about 20 men behind to maintain their 'keeps' on worlds they've conquered/liberated.

A company is 106 marines! 60 tactical, 20 assault, 20 devastator, a captain and a 5 man command squad.. 104 is the old way! alot of people forget that lately.
The command squad veterans come from the 1st company. Remember.. the 1st company rarely fights as a company. The 50-100 men that make up the 1st are split amongst the remaining 8 companies (6 to 12 Veterans/Terminators per company).



All i'm saying is look at the enemies capabilities, weapons, fleets, technology, numbers and you will see 1,000 marines is rather paltry. And it takes about a decade to make a marine!

Marines are so super durable that they can survive horrible wounds. Basically... although in game terms you 'kill a marine' he may become walking wounded or thrown into a coma state. Just cause a Marine is out of the fight.. doesn't mean he's out of the battle. Not to mention the Armour that injects them with live saving drugs :D.


I think most battlezones dont even have Space Marines present, they just pop up from time to time.
They are usually requested for a specific mission. You are right.


I think that the Imperial Armoury Volume 3-5 show how and when Space Marines are effectively used, and how they consider the losses to be grieve, but worthwile for the important military goal they strived to achieve.
Damit! I still have to get through those ones :(.


Sorry I'm late to the theard (this thread has exploded :S). Some people are argueing how an individual marine fights... the modern forces put emphasis on Team work. You don't fight as an individual ... you fight as a team (Play full specrum warrior on xbox u'll know what I mean). It's the marines individual ability to fight on when other men couldn't hack it is what makes the an unstoppable fighting force. The white panthers could have taken out industrial plants of the world with their strike cruiser if they deamed it necessary. If 100,000 men and tanks were holding a static position you know you can't take... or forces were massed in one area... you take them out if the opportunity strikes. War has always been part luck.. and part opportunity (Ref: Gulf War Highway of death).


And again, the original fluff noted them doing this on their own without the fleet. They don't have guns that can crack open the continental crust.

Space marines don't have a 'fleet' but the truest standards. Reading the Battlefleet gothic stuff... the formation of a space marine fleet was argreed upon as a means for marines to maintain their independence to wage war as needed. They don't possess ships that are designed to fight 'space battles'. They have ships that support ground forces. Space Marine ships don't have 'broad sides' or 'Torpedos' (accept boarding ones) (I think). They don't have a 'true fleet'. Also... battle barges were included when I read 2nd edition fluff (pre-gothic).

UselessThing
14-12-2007, 17:21
The PDF solider is probably scared witless right about now. Fire and brimstone is falling from the skies, his immediate superiors are only so much ash thanks to a plasma warhead, and he probably can't get to his guns.

My problem with this sort of thing is that it kinda makes Marines less cool - its a rationalisation to demythologise them, and I'm not sure what the purpose of a demythologised fantasy world is.

Yknow - 'you may thing Marines are cool, but really they arn't'

'Oh. Well, thats far less interesting then.'

From a pure sales point of view, 'Space Marines are so cool Six Squads can take a planet!' is just better if you don't have to qualify it with 'but it was a very small planet. Infact, everyone on it was out. So they just stuck down a flag and left a note. But no really, they are cool! Hey! Wait! Guys? Where are you going guys?'

jfrazell
14-12-2007, 17:27
Greetings,



And whenever I say: "The Space Marines have their own fleet, which includes capital ships and escort craft." I get the response of 'But because they have to use ships, a single company of Space Marines can't take a planet because they aren't alone!'

If a single company of Space Marines were going to scourge a planet, I'd see it as two different battles or fights. The first is orbital, and laid at the feet of the Chapter's servitors and serfs. The second is the ground war, fought by a company of Space Marines. I'm taking one liberty, though: the world in question has only recently turned from the Emperor's light (I'm assuming Kertha would be an example of this kind of world).

As soon as the Strike Cruiser and it's attendant Rapid Strike Vessels drops out of the warps, the first task of the Space Marines is to knock out the orbital and space-borne defenses. The Space Marines would accomplish this by boarding the space stations and system defense ships or by simply unleashing the weapons batteries.

Once the Space Marines knock out the orbital and space-borne defenses, the Strike Cruiser and Rapid Strike Vessels move in closer to the planet. This is done for two reasons: the need to be within range to start establishing a beach head with Thunderhawks and drop pods, and the big guns of the fleet aren't tired yet.

Assuming that the PDF sensors have picked up on the fleet -- or at least happened to look up and see their defense fleet getting mauled -- the call will go out that the PDF soldiers should head toward their armories and vehicle yards. Which have been detected by the Space Marine fleet's own sensors. The guns of the Space Marine fleet begin pounding these vehicle yards, armories, and any ground-based weapons that pose a threat to the fleet.

The crew of the Space Marines fleet is made up of the Chapter's servitors and serfs, since there are only a hundred Space Marines in the company and they have more important things to do -- such as assaulting the planet below.

Now, there is where I agree with DantesInferno. The common populace (from which the PDF solider is drawn from) of an Imperial world is heavily indoctrionated in the Imperial Creed, and they know that the Space Marines are the Angels of Death and deliver the Emperor's wrath down upon the heads of the heretic and the sinner. And, right about now, the populace is knows they screwed up. And screwed up big.

The average person probably cannot see the space vessels orbiting them with the naked eye. They can, however, see the plasma warheads and shells from the naval guns hurtling through the atmosphere to smack into world with thunder and fury. They don't see the weapons being launched by the fleet as, well, weapons being launched by the fleet. They see them as fire and brimstone falling from the heavens as a sign of the Emperor's displeasure.

The PDF solider is probably scared witless right about now. Fire and brimstone is falling from the skies, his immediate superiors are only so much ash thanks to a plasma warhead, and he probably can't get to his guns. Those rare few PDF soldiers that can get to the armories and have, at least, a battalion level command structure aren't much better off. The higher ups are at the bottom of a recently made creator, the support structure for the army is gone, and fire and brimstone is falling from the heavens.

And now, to top it off, the Angels of Death appear. By this time, the PDF is probably leaderless, hordes of men, armored vehicles, and armories have fallen prey to the orbital guns, and the average solider is scared witless. What weapons the PDF has isn't likely do a right and proper job of killing a Space Marine. A few lucky shots might kill several of them, but there are still more coming. And every shot that doesn't hit or hurt a Space Marine only reinforces the dogma of the Imperial Creed: nothing can hurt the Angels of Death.

As needed, squads of Space Marines board Thunderhawks to be ferried around the planet or the orbiting naval guns are given other targets. Most likely, the PDF is slaughtered to a man. Their job done, the Space Marines are gone.

They've acted as the vanguard for the Imperial force sent to reclaim the world, which means that the task of garrisoning the world falls to the Imperial Guard, the Adeptus Aribites, and Ministorium delegates that have to reindoctrine the populace and guard holy sites.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

Now thats a quality fluff response I can get behind. EXCELSIOR!

Supremearchmarshal
14-12-2007, 17:47
@TheBlueGrassGamer

I agree with you on that example, but it wouldn't work against Orks (won't scare them unless you kill at least 3/4 of them), Tyranids (synapse creatures are far too numerous to all be eliminated with surgical strikes), Chaos Marines, most other Chaos forces (many mutants and traitors are insane or fanatically hate the Imperium, Daemons aren't scared of puny mortals), Eldar (too smart) etc.

So marines can easily overwhelm PDF, but PDF troops are among the weakest forces in the galaxy!

jfrazell
14-12-2007, 18:13
Might work well against Tau though. They seem to be a pretty centralized society.

GreenDracoBob
14-12-2007, 18:14
@Supremearchmarshal

But the question was whether a Space Marine company could take a planet on their own. In most cases, this would be done in the case of traitors. If you're going to take an Ork, or Chaos controlled world, it's going to include a big deal engagement with many Imperial forces. Tyranids don't hold worlds, so it doesn't matter anyways. Eldar worlds might be taken in this way, though I'm not an expert on Exodites (and the Craftworlds or Corsairs would take it back when the settlers arrived).

So TheBlueGrassGamer's scenario answers the question in the most believable way.

TheBlueGrassGamer
14-12-2007, 18:24
Greetings,


Space Marine ships don't have 'broad sides' or 'Torpedos' (accept boarding ones) (I think). They don't have a 'true fleet'. Also... battle barges were included when I read 2nd edition fluff (pre-gothic).


Not quiet. In Battle Fleet Gothic, Space Marine Rapid Strike Vessels are chosen from ships that are normally chosen to act as escorts in normal Imperial Navy fleets -- which includes the Cobra destroyer which is armed with torpedoes. Many of the Imperial escorts are also shown to have weapons batteries.


The Space Marine Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges in BFG are listed as having port and starboard weapons batteries (which you refer to as 'broadsides') and bombardment cannons.

So, yeah, a Space Marine fleet has access to broadside weapons, torpedoes, and bombardment cannons.


Keep in mind that some planets do have void-shields to protect their capital cities from orbital bombardement, and sometimes also have ground defenses against orbit threats, like missiles and defense lasers... with pompous names. :D

Well, that's more of a minor stumbling block. :D

The voids shields on Titans collapse all the time, so I'm sure a sustained orbital bombardment could collapse a capital-spanning void shield. I doubt that a void shield of that magnitude would reach all the way to the ground -- so even if it withstands the orbital barrage, I'm sure the Space Marines could attack under it.

And I thought I dealt with the ground-based weapons already. :angel: They become the main targets after the orbital and space-borne defenses are gone....



My problem with this sort of thing is that it kinda makes Marines less cool - its a rationalisation to demythologise them, and I'm not sure what the purpose of a demythologised fantasy world is.


Well, that's the thing about a fluff discussion: You can't make everyone happy.

Some people dislike the fact that the original fluff has a full company of Space Marines customarily appear on a planet and conqure -- staying there's no way they can do it. I've said, "Sure they can. Here's how." But that doesn't go over well either.

I doubt that there's a middle ground in this discussion. Either a company of Space Marines can conqure a world, or they can't. To support your view, you've got to rationalize either why a company of Space Marines can or cannot conqure a world on their own.


Now thats a quality fluff response I can get behind. EXCELSIOR!

That's always been my stance on the subject, since entering into this discussion.

The company of Space Marines cannot conqure a planet if they can't get to it, so they'd need some form of transportation to get to the planet. And if the Space Marines simply started drop podding on the planet, without softening it up first, they'd be destroyed before the pods touched on the ground.

Which is why I started introducing elements of the BFG fleet list in my discussions. Since the discussion was largely based on a company of Space Marines destroying a planet, I used the Strike Cruiser in my example. A Strike Cruiser carries approximately one company of Space Marines with their support vehicles.

But even Strike Cruiser will be mauled by the planet's orbital and space-borne defense, since it'd be only one ship amongst many. So, the Space Marines would dispatch Rapid Strike Vessels to defend the valuable Strike Cruiser.

So I'd see a single battle-company taking out a planet like I described earlier.

I apologize, I wasn't able to articulate that before hand.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

Clockwork-Knight
14-12-2007, 18:38
The void shields for a city will for sure be greater and more efficient than any void shield from a space ship or a teenie-weenie Titan. That's why they don't even try to bombard the Fortress Capital of Vraks from orbit (besides it being protected from masses of missile-bays and defense lasers). And yes, Void shields tend to allow low-velocity things pass through it, like bombers, missiles and torpedos, and drop ships (well, low-velocity compared to laser beams and ultra-accelerated bombardement munition).
Which is why then Space Marines are used for that in quick hit-and-run assaults with their Thunderhawks and such. Although not mentioned rules-wise, even Thunderhawks will surely have some kind of stealth-mode to enable their vehicles to enter the target area.

biccat
14-12-2007, 18:41
I've been following this thread, and it's pretty interesting. I'm mostly on the side of "reality doesn't support the fluff," or "the fluff is internally inconsistant," or "SM just aren't that cool."


As soon as the Strike Cruiser and it's attendant Rapid Strike Vessels drops out of the warps, the first task of the Space Marines is to knock out the orbital and space-borne defenses. The Space Marines would accomplish this by boarding the space stations and system defense ships or by simply unleashing the weapons batteries.
If the SM vessels are strong enough to wipe out space-borne defenses, then why does the Imperium have a Navy? Why not just make SM-grade vessels and crew them by non-Marines (as the SM vessels are not crewed by Marines either)?



Assuming that the PDF sensors have picked up on the fleet -- or at least happened to look up and see their defense fleet getting mauled -- the call will go out that the PDF soldiers should head toward their armories and vehicle yards. Which have been detected by the Space Marine fleet's own sensors. The guns of the Space Marine fleet begin pounding these vehicle yards, armories, and any ground-based weapons that pose a threat to the fleet.
Any PDF must have independent and redundant systems to prevent this. If the space-borne defense fails, the next layer of defense must be stronger. This is the same principle which advocates putting the moat outside of the castle wall, rather than inside. If an enemy can get through your outer defense, then it will only be stopped by a stronger inner defense.

Also, ground-based PDF which are detectable from space have already started firing, or (if unable to reach the invaders), are undetectable. In real life, mobile missile launchers don't turn on their radars to track planes until they're ready to fire, for fear of being detected.



Now, there is where I agree with DantesInferno. The common populace (from which the PDF solider is drawn from) of an Imperial world is heavily indoctrionated in the Imperial Creed, and they know that the Space Marines are the Angels of Death and deliver the Emperor's wrath down upon the heads of the heretic and the sinner. And, right about now, the populace is knows they screwed up. And screwed up big.
Except they're a renegade world, and any threat big enough to call in the SM likely means enough resistance, especially among the planetary defenses.



The average person probably cannot see the space vessels orbiting them with the naked eye. They can, however, see the plasma warheads and shells from the naval guns hurtling through the atmosphere to smack into world with thunder and fury. They don't see the weapons being launched by the fleet as, well, weapons being launched by the fleet. They see them as fire and brimstone falling from the heavens as a sign of the Emperor's displeasure.

The PDF solider is probably scared witless right about now. Fire and brimstone is falling from the skies, his immediate superiors are only so much ash thanks to a plasma warhead, and he probably can't get to his guns. Those rare few PDF soldiers that can get to the armories and have, at least, a battalion level command structure aren't much better off. The higher ups are at the bottom of a recently made creator, the support structure for the army is gone, and fire and brimstone is falling from the heavens.
The PDF (& populace) probably doesn't know who is attacking, or is resistant to the Imperium (see above). If the PDF gets scared and lays down arms any time an enemy cripples your space-borne defenses for fear of the Emperor's wrath...then why have a PDF? The scenario you describe applies equally whether the fleet is Eldar or Imperial.



And now, to top it off, the Angels of Death appear. By this time, the PDF is probably leaderless, hordes of men, armored vehicles, and armories have fallen prey to the orbital guns, and the average solider is scared witless. What weapons the PDF has isn't likely do a right and proper job of killing a Space Marine. A few lucky shots might kill several of them, but there are still more coming. And every shot that doesn't hit or hurt a Space Marine only reinforces the dogma of the Imperial Creed: nothing can hurt the Angels of Death.
Again, we reach 2 scenarios:
1 - willful resistance, enough to turn the forces against the Imperium, and they'll fight.
2 - non-willful resistance, either the populace repents in light of the Emperor's wrath, or they don't know what a SM is, and consider them the enemy and fight to the death.



As needed, squads of Space Marines board Thunderhawks to be ferried around the planet or the orbiting naval guns are given other targets. Most likely, the PDF is slaughtered to a man. Their job done, the Space Marines are gone.

They've acted as the vanguard for the Imperial force sent to reclaim the world, which means that the task of garrisoning the world falls to the Imperial Guard, the Adeptus Aribites, and Ministorium delegates that have to reindoctrine the populace and guard holy sites.
OK, so you've just argued for establishing a beachhead. Far from planetary genocide, and basically what has been argued as the real duty of the SM. They do not have the power to enforce compliance on a world, they just come in, wipe out the defenses in precision strikes, and let the Guard take care of things from there.

BTW, this thread is a great discussion.

"SPACE MARINES HURRRR!"

shutupSHUTUP!!!
14-12-2007, 19:09
To add to TheBlueGrassGamer excellent post, you might also see a popular uprising of loyalists (perhaps led by underground priests and redempionists leading a resistance movement). Hundreds of thousands of citizens forming mobs and rampaging about the planet's urban areas would probably be useful to the marines and these people would form the basis from which the Imperium reclaim the world.

Generally though I agree with jfrzell, the marines are several times better off when working in conjunction with other Imperial forces. If the Imperial guard and a rebellious PDF have been at war for several weeks/months/years on a contested planet where both sides have popular support from the citizens, then the arrival of a battle company changes everything. The Imperials morale would soar whilst the rebels would despair at the thought of taking on the herculean marines and possibly go AWOL en masse.

Another thing to consider is that when we say "x number of PDF could defeat y space marines" then we are thinking from a topd down strategic view. I doubt the advance squads of soldiers going off the fight the marines feel safe in the knowledge that, whilst in all likelyhood they are going to die painfully, they will damage one of the marines chestplates and allow the next squad to score a light injury. I doubt they would consider that worth dying for and would most likely flee in droves.

imperial_scholar
14-12-2007, 19:29
Greetings,
Not quiet. In Battle Fleet Gothic, Space Marine Rapid Strike Vessels are chosen from ships that are normally chosen to act as escorts in normal Imperial Navy fleets -- which includes the Cobra destroyer which is armed with torpedoes. Many of the Imperial escorts are also shown to have weapons batteries.


The Space Marine Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges in BFG are listed as having port and starboard weapons batteries (which you refer to as 'broadsides') and bombardment cannons.

So, yeah, a Space Marine fleet has access to broadside weapons, torpedoes, and bombardment cannons.

Thanks, I remember reading that the Imperial Navy Didn't want Marines to have ships originally.. They aren't suppose to have true 'naval' battles. Whatever.. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything about BFG.

Clockwork-Knight
14-12-2007, 20:07
Then simply download the free material on the specialist games website. :)

R Man
14-12-2007, 20:13
If the SM vessels are strong enough to wipe out space-borne defenses, then why does the Imperium have a Navy? Why not just make SM-grade vessels and crew them by non-Marines (as the SM vessels are not crewed by Marines either)?

They are probably restricted to bombing small portions of the planet. The Imperial Navy is needed for fleet battles and large scale bombardment of large area's of the planets surface.


The PDF (& populace) probably doesn't know who is attacking, or is resistant to the Imperium (see above). If the PDF gets scared and lays down arms any time an enemy cripples your space-borne defenses for fear of the Emperor's wrath...then why have a PDF? The scenario you describe applies equally whether the fleet is Eldar or Imperial.

It's not about 'laying down arms'. The example had the guardsman removed from his weapon accidently. Because he was being bombed. The PDF has many duties such as fighting rebels on the planets surface and resisting raiders and pirates, enemies who don't have the same presision of the Marines. Marines are built for a concentrated and precise strike.


Again, we reach 2 scenarios:
1 - willful resistance, enough to turn the forces against the Imperium, and they'll fight.
2 - non-willful resistance, either the populace repents in light of the Emperor's wrath, or they don't know what a SM is, and consider them the enemy and fight to the death.

Or 3 - Panic, the govenrment looses control and everything goes to hell. I don't know what it is with people these days with their 'ordinary people fighting heroically' but I blame Hollywood. In reality most people would panic, run and hide. The marines mop up whats left.


OK, so you've just argued for establishing a beachhead. Far from planetary genocide, and basically what has been argued as the real duty of the SM. They do not have the power to enforce compliance on a world, they just come in, wipe out the defenses in precision strikes, and let the Guard take care of things from there.

Well, yes. That's the whole point of Marines and the codex Astrates. So they can't easily dominate an important world. They can destabilise a world, but they are deliberately restriced from occupying them.

If a plannet goes rouge it doesen't mean that every single person has gone rouge. Planets might break away from the Imperium for a variety of reasons but Jo Citizen will still hold to his indoctrinated beliefs. The high ups might rebel and citizens might follow them but they could still revear and fear the emperor. There is every posiblity that individuals and even units would defect. Hell the entire army might defect if the general was still loyal to the Imperium. Of course this only works with recently rebeled planets.

And ordinary soldiers in cover are difficult to kill as it is. Even without power armour. Imagine trying to attack terminators in a bunker. It would be a nearly imposible task without very heavy equipment. The 40K rules don't represent cover very well.

UselessThing
14-12-2007, 20:23
Well, that's the thing about a fluff discussion: You can't make everyone happy.

All to true.

But I reckon the important constituency are the legions of merchandise perchasing Marine fans, and I can't imagine many of them complaining if Marines are hard enough to, well, I just can't imagine you can make them to hard, especially in these days where Yoda can demolish armies in hand to hand combat and Dynasty Warriors is only an on switch away.

Like I say, know who your audience is.






I mean, seriously, given the people they write and make this stuff for, how hard would they need to be before they started selling less...

Witchfire
14-12-2007, 21:12
And is any marine force times 10 still enough to conquer a planet?

yes, the iron warriors pre-heresy secured entire worlds by stationing only a tactical squad of hard as nails astartes there.

biccat
14-12-2007, 22:32
Or 3 - Panic, the govenrment looses control and everything goes to hell. I don't know what it is with people these days with their 'ordinary people fighting heroically' but I blame Hollywood. In reality most people would panic, run and hide. The marines mop up whats left.
The issue isn't ordinary people fighting heroically, the issue is trained militia doing what they were trained to do. The military of today doesn't run and hide at the sight of an enemy, or suffering casualties, I don't know why any well-trained force would turn and run.

The idea of morale in tabletop games is a holdover from historics, where an undisciplined force of conscripts was always a flight risk. Professional soldiers do not get demoralized in a firefight.

Clockwork-Knight
14-12-2007, 22:38
Morale in the game is more than simply moral to hold on (although even professional soldiers will get demoralized in a firefight, or especially in a close-quarter-combat). It's also the effectivity to shoot at other targets, walking forward effectively while being under sniper-fire, regroup as fast as possible, or simply be able to stand against the sight of a giant super-sized ubermonster with claws as big as trunks who projects frightening visions and chills.

imperial_scholar
14-12-2007, 22:41
Then simply download the free material on the specialist games website. :)

I did too.. but I find BFG BOOOOOring

Clockwork-Knight
14-12-2007, 22:44
You don't have to read the rules-section, simply the background lore-part and the fleet section.

Vaz84
15-12-2007, 00:08
Bah. No matter how Dead Ard a space marine is, I just dont see how the fluff justifys ten to a hundered men, even a thousand, owning a planet. Even with an amazing transport system, could one marine squad start up in Alaska, swing all the way through north america, south america, jump over to africa, up to europe, across asia, down to austrailia. Wiping out all the PDF forces with supporting air, navy and tank units?

It really comes down to just simple battlefield coverage, space marines cannot be everywhere. Even a full chapter being deployed is only a small wedge in the battlefield.

So it would be agree'd as with previous posters, marines get dropped in, kick ass, pull out.

But for the fluff to claim ten men took over an entire planet, either that planet has a PDF made of paper that likes to clump in tight clusters of 20 men to maximize bolter coverage, or 10 space marines never took over that entire planet.

Slaaneshi Slave
15-12-2007, 00:45
Of course they did. 10 Marines and 15,000,000 Imperial Guardsmen. :p

Clockwork-Knight
15-12-2007, 01:52
Perhaps the planet where the Iron Warrior-dudes where stationed at simply had some few thousand inhabitants on the entire planet for it.

Firaxin
15-12-2007, 03:25
Perhaps the planet where the Iron Warrior-dudes where stationed at simply had some few thousand inhabitants on the entire planet for it.

As is so often the case in the fluff. I find most planets in the Imperium have either 100,000,000,000+ or 10,000 people.

FrankManic
15-12-2007, 05:01
You know, when you get right down to it, the space marines would make exceptional, kickass bar none Marines, doing what Marines generally do. Which, traditionally, involves boarding enemy ships and taking them over, establishing beachheads for the Army, and that sort of thing. They're not really used as Marines in the story. More as just hyperbolically all conquering badasses.

DantesInferno
15-12-2007, 06:23
You're an idiot.

I suspect UselessThing wasn't being entirely serious. Even if he was, no need to call him an idiot.


What is cool about 10 men taking all the credit for the work of the Glorious Imperial Guard?

First of all, the "10 men" reference was regarding a garrison of pre-/mid-Heresy Iron Warriors. They can't have been taking all the credit for the work of the Imperial Guard, because the Imperial Guard didn't exist yet. ;)

Before and during the Heresy it was common practice for Imperial Army units (the predecessors to the Guard) to be attached to the Legions, and for the Imperial Army units to be more or less under the direct command of the Legions. So the Legions ended up getting the bulk of the credit.

It's a bit like the 300 Spartans who gave their lives to delay the Persians at Thermopylae. Oh, and a few thousand other miscellaneous Greeks. But no one really remembers them.

Is it fair? No. Life isn't. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.


Even if Marines could kill a million men, which I say they cannot, how would they carry the ammunition?

If the Marines play their cards right, they won't need to kill a million men. Kill a few hundred in surgical strikes and leave the rest leaderless, thoroughly demoralised, unable to act cohesively or resupply, and generally in awe at the Emperor's Angels of Death.

Witchfire
15-12-2007, 12:16
first off- the iron warriors were siege specialists, and were probably holed up in a fortress full of ammo and gear

secondly- nobodys forcing them to come out and face a million soldiers, they can stay in the fortress indefinitely

thirdly- nobody ever said that they conquered the planet, just that they were left behind to babysit the disgruntled population

sean_scanlon2000
15-12-2007, 15:08
okay i love the fluff and i read pretty much anythign from old codex's to posts on here to gain more information and if you think that 1000 marines is not enough then read brothers of the snake. thats a single marine and you can see the destructive potential he has. as for the total number of marines a strict marine chapter will never have more then 1000 battle brothers. if the chapter does not follow the codex as strictly then it may have more ie black templars and spacewolves and imperial fists for example. and their is no true way to ever tell the actual size of a marine chapter because it does not count in initiates who are in trainning remember their trainning takes decades. then you have to take into account the number of marines who are stationed onboard the fleets to act as commanders. but back to the main point a single space marine fluff wise is suposed to be worth 100 guards men. and you forget that they are the masters or war so when a space marine company goes to war the enemy truly does have something to fear because the space marines will systematically and methodically destroy their enemy piece by piece they are not a blunt instrument liek guard they are ment for surgical strikes that cripple the enemy. drop pod a full company into an enemy bastion and it will fall. look at teh blood angles books 2 companies one of which was pretty much below 50% and another one probably nearly 60% invaded a planet attacked the strong point of a chaos bastion and took the bastion. orks tau and eldar as well as all of the other xenos races were nearly destroyed towards the end of the great crusade because the space marines were used for surgical strikes they guard is the anvil and the space marines are the hammer.

UselessThing
15-12-2007, 16:35
A company of Space Marines would be more than sufficient if each were as capable as a Final Fantasy character:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/146554.html

or The Hulk:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDAz11GUXsw

or any of a Number of action heros from recent days. I feel that a lot of the fluff and mythology works far better if this is the case.

40K was concieved back when Jedi Knights were Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader, and The Hulk was more like:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWmHEF_PT8E

I mean, I see no reason why a modern, big budget Space Marine movie shouldn't show the same kind of improvement in vision and special effects as between 80s made for TV hulk and Ang Lees big budget hulk. Or between Luke vs. Vader and Mace Windu versus the trade federation droid army in the Clone Wars cartoon.

Askari
15-12-2007, 17:20
What really dismays me is that the Legions were only 10,000 strong, and there were only 20 Legions at the peak, 200,000 Marines... taking over the galaxy.... come on they aren't that hard. [Yes, see how many die in the Horus Heresy novels, if it's anything like that each planet, there wouldn't be any left].

But yeah, tack a 0 onto the end of Chapter sizes and it becomes 10 times better :p

UselessThing
15-12-2007, 17:24
But yeah, tack a 0 onto the end of Chapter sizes and it becomes 10 times better :p

Nay - it is simple conservation of ninjitsu - theres only so much badass to go around, so spreading it out more does nothing but dilute the awesome.


come on they aren't that hard.

The only limit on their hardness is your imagination and your special effect budget!

Askari
15-12-2007, 17:32
Nay - it is simple conservation of ninjitsu - theres only so much badass to go around, so spreading it out more does nothing but dilute the awesome.

Hey what do I care? I play Chaos, I have my 10,000+ Marines, with added Warp-based bad-assery.


The only limit on their hardness is your imagination and your special effect budget!

Well, I'm a student in Wales.

So my Space Marines will be worse than grots... :p

UselessThing
15-12-2007, 17:44
Hey what do I care? I play Chaos, I have my 10,000+ Marines, with added Warp-based bad-assery.

But thats just it! Conservation of ninjitsu states that if there are 10000 marines, each is 1/10 as good as if there are 1000 Marines.

You can get around it a bit by splitting them up more - each grand company is a thousand (isn't it?), but even then our heros are knocking them off hand over fist. However, if there is only one CSM he is a dark, majestic force of evil who they will play cat and mouse with through the whole movie! He might even get them in the end if it is that kind of film!


Well, I'm a student in Wales.

So my Space Marines will be worse than grots... :p

Novels and tabletop roleplaying games have an unlimited SFX budget!







But the wales thing may be a problem. :-)

-Erik

"Anyway, fighting off a dozen ninjas is easy. It's when you run into one ninja that you know you're in trouble."

Askari
15-12-2007, 17:51
However, if there is only one CSM he is a dark, majestic force of evil who they will play cat and mouse with through the whole movie! He might even get them in the end if it is that kind of film!



Empire Strikes Back FTW!

:p

izandral
15-12-2007, 18:02
What really dismays me is that the Legions were only 10,000 strong, and there were only 20 Legions at the peak, 200,000 Marines... taking over the galaxy.... come on they aren't that hard. [Yes, see how many die in the Horus Heresy novels, if it's anything like that each planet, there wouldn't be any left].

:p

in the HH books it's mentioned that the legions don't have a uniform size. ex: the ultramarines been mentioned as having quite higher number than the luna wolves

Captain Blood
16-12-2007, 11:24
Yeah, they had enough to have supposedly split off into 23 successor chapters after the Heresy.

SpaceLanceCorporal
16-12-2007, 13:16
If a T4 3+ save marine in game terms translated to the world destroying god-warriors the fluff makes them out to be then what must the Falcons be like?

Supremearchmarshal
16-12-2007, 14:22
I think the marine's main problem is that the Imperium is very cheap on their equipment, aside from their power armour.
No force field? IG officers get them, and there are many times more officers than SM in the galaxy.
Bolters? Almost all Imperial combat vehicles have Heavy Bolters. A standard IG squad has a special weapon which is equivalent to or superior than the marines' standard gun. IG officers can get Storm Bolters.
Knives? IG Sergeants can get Chainswords, officers routinely carry power weapons.
Then there's the matter of SM tanks...

Baaltharus
16-12-2007, 15:12
a chapter is 1000 marines, remmeber their reserve companys are the ones who drive the tanks, ride the bikes/speeders etc. only in the direst circs does the full chapter take to the field and often this will be in defence of its own home world.

although this number only applys to the 'strict' codex chapters, BT would have 3000+, SW have 12 companys of around 100+ SW per company.

do not all chapters are a 1000 strong but can be much greater, some such as the Crimson Fists number a reduced amount after the Rynns world incedent.

This has been gone over before, Marines Battle companies have to be able to operate outside the support of the reserve companies. Reserve Companies do not operate the vehicles of the battle company. What Capt. Blood said it correct, a Chapter is actually far closer to 1500 marines than it is to 1000.

Captain Blood
16-12-2007, 22:53
As a bit of an addendum to that, when GW did up the whole Ultramarines Chapter, they had 1000 "battle brothers" on display, then they had librarians, apothecaries, techmarines, et al. The term "battle brother," as far as I am concerned, refers to foot infantry, be they tactical, assault, devastator or terminator. They happened to have a trio of pewter thunderhawk gunships, two of which were being depicted in the air, and thus piloted, as well as a number of landspeeders in the same fashion.

Anyone adamantly stating that a "codex" chapter is only 1000 marines obviously isn't counting the HQ staff. After all, a tactical marine knows how to strip and clean his bolter, to check the seals on his armour, and to cleanse the foes of the Emperor with bolter and chainsword. I doubt he knows how to resegment his squadmate's intestines, install bionics, or build a predator or suit of terminator armour.

R Man
16-12-2007, 23:18
I think the marine's main problem is that the Imperium is very cheap on their equipment, aside from their power armour.
No force field? IG officers get them, and there are many times more officers than SM in the galaxy.
Bolters? Almost all Imperial combat vehicles have Heavy Bolters.

I'm not sure about the force field. I've never heard of these. However bolters are a completely different weapon in usage than a Heavy Bolter, especially a tank mounted HB. A tank is much larger and stronger than a man and can carry heavier weaponry. A Marine is equipped with a bolter because it's powerful and easy to control and selectively fire. A marine is restricted from moving if he has a HB and machine Guns consume far too much amunition for them to be realistically used as standard infantry weapons.


A standard IG squad has a special weapon which is equivalent to or superior than the marines' standard gun. IG officers can get Storm Bolters.

Yes, but Marines can also get said special and heavy weapons. As said before, a Bolter is a standard arm and is superior to or at least equal to most standard arms in the game (except the Tau) and it's even better in fluff. Saying the bolter is usless because a Melta or lascannon (For example) is stronger is not accurate because of many off field factors such as amunition, maintinence and expense as well on field factors as it's limit of range. And Marines can get enitre units with storm bolters.


Knives? IG Sergeants can get Chainswords, officers routinely carry power weapons.

Marine sargents routinely carry powerfists. Guardmen use bayonets. Who knows if FireWarriors actually bother to bring close combat weapons. Assault troops routinely carry chainsaws and Terminators are armed with powerfists.


Then there's the matter of SM tanks...

I'm sure Space Marine Tanks have some quality that makes up for it. If only I knew what is was...

Felwether
17-12-2007, 00:02
I think the marine's main problem is that the Imperium is very cheap on their equipment, aside from their power armour.
No force field? IG officers get them, and there are many times more officers than SM in the galaxy.
Bolters? Almost all Imperial combat vehicles have Heavy Bolters. A standard IG squad has a special weapon which is equivalent to or superior than the marines' standard gun. IG officers can get Storm Bolters.
Knives? IG Sergeants can get Chainswords, officers routinely carry power weapons.
Then there's the matter of SM tanks...


What was the point in that?

IG officers don't get power armour and they're not T4 and if you looked at the =][= SM rules you'd realise that they don't need force fields anyway.
Heavy bolters? Space Marine armies can have plenty of heavy bolters.
It's true that the average IG squad can take a special weapon better than a bolter but then again so can a Marine squad only SMs are BS4 and the entire squad is armed with bolters- not lasguns.
IG officers get storm bolters? Woopdy doo.
Knives? what about knives? how big do you reckon the combat knife carried by a 7/8ft Marine is?
IG officers get power weapons, true, but then again so do SM veteran sergeants...

SM tanks... can't argue there... they're crap. :D
But then again who needs a tank when you can take a devastator squad for roughly the same amount of points?

Anyway...



The point that has been missed in this topic is that of course a Chapter of one thousand Marines is not enough to conquer and hold a well defended world. The whole reason for division into Chapters in the first place was to prevent this happening: to deliberately limit the power of the Astartes to make them dependent on the other branches of the Imperium to take and hold strong worlds.

The last time the Imperium had massive armies of Astartes capable of taking whole systems by themselves, those armies were called Legions, and it ended in the most apocalyptic civil war Humanity had ever seen.


Thank you.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-12-2007, 01:03
Lets say there are 100 billion Guardsmen. And lets say 10 Billion of them are veterans. And lets say 1 in 10 of them are equiped with special equipment. That means 1 billion Guardsmen are equiped with better equipment than Marines. Thats a hell of a lot more Guardsmen than Marines. And I would suggest thats a low estimate.

Felwether
17-12-2007, 01:25
I was speaking (mostly) from a gaming perspective! :D We're all well aware that there are more IG than Astartes.

pookie
17-12-2007, 09:30
This has been gone over before, Marines Battle companies have to be able to operate outside the support of the reserve companies. Reserve Companies do not operate the vehicles of the battle company.


well accroding to a lot of the fluff published they do. but hey lets all just ignore the fact that the Codex Astartares states its a 1000 marines per chapter...

Nazguire
17-12-2007, 10:17
well accroding to a lot of the fluff published they do. but hey lets all just ignore the fact that the Codex Astartares states its a 1000 marines per chapter...

The organisation chart shows 1000 battle brothers. Before the headquarters. They may be over 1000 but it wouldnt' be by much. We don't want to ignore common sense either.

pookie
17-12-2007, 12:04
The organisation chart shows 1000 battle brothers. Before the headquarters. They may be over 1000 but it wouldnt' be by much. We don't want to ignore common sense either.

which is a fiar point, but i doubt it would be as large as some people think, even if you do count all the HQ etc.

but lets not forget that a Codex chapter is small becuase it should not be able to cause the same problems that happened during the HH.

Supremearchmarshal
17-12-2007, 12:28
I'm not sure about the force field. I've never heard of these.

Refractor Fields available to IG Officers. In 2nd edition 40k and Inquisitor there were/are other types available to imperial characters, too.


Yes, but Marines can also get said special and heavy weapons. As said before, a Bolter is a standard arm and is superior to or at least equal to most standard arms in the game (except the Tau) and it's even better in fluff. Saying the bolter is usless because a Melta or lascannon (For example) is stronger is not accurate because of many off field factors such as amunition, maintinence and expense as well on field factors as it's limit of range. And Marines can get enitre units with storm bolters.
Marine sargents routinely carry powerfists. Guardmen use bayonets. Who knows if FireWarriors actually bother to bring close combat weapons. Assault troops routinely carry chainsaws and Terminators are armed with powerfists.

Of course, but don't forget the SM are outnumbered dozens of times over by the IG special weapons troopers alone. If the SM are so rare and present such an investment for the Imperium, why shouldn't they have access to almost any weapon they want? SM are the elite of the elite - it makes no sense to cut expenses when arming them. Plus a SM trooper can carry much more equipment than a guardsman.


I'm sure Space Marine Tanks have some quality that makes up for it. If only I knew what is was...

:) In 2nd edition it was speed. Now? Erm... colourful paint job?


What was the point in that?

IG officers don't get power armour and they're not T4 and if you looked at the =][= SM rules you'd realise that they don't need force fields anyway.

Even so, the marines are rare and difficult to replace - I'd make every effort to increase their survivability. It's easier to replace an IG officer than a SM, and a Refractor field protects against almost any weapon - and even in the fluff a SM can't just shrug off a Lascannon shot.


Heavy bolters? Space Marine armies can have plenty of heavy bolters.
It's true that the average IG squad can take a special weapon better than a bolter but then again so can a Marine squad only SMs are BS4 and the entire squad is armed with bolters- not lasguns.
Knives? what about knives? how big do you reckon the combat knife carried by a 7/8ft Marine is?
IG officers get power weapons, true, but then again so do SM veteran sergeants...

As I've said above - it's just a question of numbers... If there were 100,000 marines per chapter it would make sense, but since theres only 1000... Let's face it - a million Power Swords / Refractor Fields / Meltaguns is not much considering the vastness of the Imperial war industry...

EDIT: Of course, I'm well aware the real reason is game balance, we're talking fluff and "realism" here.

pookie
17-12-2007, 12:54
Refractor Fields available to IG Officers. In 2nd edition 40k and Inquisitor there were/are other types available to imperial characters, too.

dont forget Conversion and Displacer fields.

Aeolian
04-04-2008, 20:28
What makes everyone think that they would be invading a whole planet or that a whole planet would generally have anywhere near a few billion people on it?

battle captain corpus
05-04-2008, 09:03
Anyone else feel that 1,000 marines is just not enough?

To me, maybe its only 1,000 marines at war at any given time. Back on the homeworld's, maybe four to five times that number are kicking around. One reason I see this is you have say the Ultramarines, who own a whole sub-sector of the galaxy.

Kind of like "marine-reserve" so to say. You have your 1000 active marines, with 4000 unactive kicking around preparing to be called up to the front lines. Just to me it does not make good sense for 1000 men to change much in terms of battle dynamics. Especially in the massive planet wide wars we see. I understand marines are a tactical strike force, but even looking at say the battle for the ultramarines planet. How could one company, 100 men, even form a circle of defense around a massive polar fortress? That could be one marine every 10 meters if not more.

~

You really need to read some more fluff I think my friend, that or play a game with the "movie marines"
1000 marines is enough to conquer a major system. We are talking one marine killing hundreds of troops. A tactical squad is one of the most powerfull units created to be able to dominate a battle field alone.
Why do people continue to disbeleive that a marine is a walking tank almost? Have you not read ANY of the books? Have you never heard that marines shrug off heavy bolter shells like water drops? They can survive a krak grenade to tha face for gods sake! They can survive a TITAN walking over them!
For gaks sake people, just belive for once! Stop doubting them!!:mad::mad:

Pokey ork
05-04-2008, 12:41
Well while I do agree that 1000 marines is a bit slim I do think they are indeed a very powerful fighting force and with the correct co ordination they could, in addition with fleet support, take out a planet. I personally think a week is pushing it a bit too far, a month or mabye two and a half weeks they could. Although I would imagine by "taking" a planet, as in absolutely obliterating the defenses and all military opposition, not going on a mass genocide fest.

And I would also like to note that while Space marines are indeed a hell of a lot stronger than the likes of a normal guardsman, they are still, as someone pointed out earlier, human. A lot of people just seem to be focusing primarily on stories from the Space marines perspective. What about the others though which show them being cut down? The opening story in the Ork codex, followed by a bad ass piece of art work with a Warboss crushing a Marine in his massive claw.

Heck what about Gaunts ghosts who manage to take down Marines albeit with difficulty. Tyranids too, terminators are required for hulk raids for a reason you know. If a stealer gets close to a Space marine, no mary-sue fluff is going to save him from being torn to ribbons.

And to Corpus, the movie marines are really strong. Fair game sure. What about a fluffy Carnifex though? They, in the fluff, eat Space marines for breakfast. Or how about fluffy Ghazghull or a Warboss? Problem with the movie marines, it is making their rules resemble the fluff, but no other race is. That is the substantial flaw in that arguement.

The Space marine being stepped on by a titan and surviving was a terminator, and it was because of the surface why he survived. He sank into the ground due to it not being completely solid, although yes his terminator armour also played a large role in preserving his life. However if the surface he was standing on was completely solid, the terminator would have been squashed.

Also @Corpus, did you ever read Nightbringer where the Space marines pretty much got their asses handed to them by the Nightbringers NEcron bodyguards? Space marines are strong and will utterly obliterate your average joe, but when it comes down to the xeno races or something, that is a whole other game.

Space marines: Uber soldiers who are the elite of the elite of the Imperium and are bad ass? Yes

Indestructable where a single one can tear through forty Orks in melee with just his trusty bolter and bear hands? No.

Come to think of it I would love to see it if there was a situation where Orks or a Xeno race switched places with the Space marines. Let me take the example of the....Orks. The fans would all be raving in how absolutely unbeatable and utterly crush Space marines and all, because of their numbers and guns and how they keep growing etc. Power armour? BAH! ME choppa goes through that cuz I believez it can! And because of the majority liking Orks, this would be generally accepted as concrete fact. That is bassicaly the situation with the Space marines as of now. But just giving an example in what it would be like if some other race were in the Space marines position.

battle captain corpus
05-04-2008, 19:46
Meh...I'm just going to agree to dis-agree. ;)
For me, I'll always see them as unstoppable killing machines, the galaxies finest who no matter the odds always keep going. 1000 marine sis fine by me, I can understand why others may think this is not enough theorec
tically but hey-ho...meh! Hahahha! :)

AllisterCaine
05-04-2008, 21:22
1000 Marines are the actual troops that fight...the fleet, homeworld, outposts are all controlled/ governed by normal humans. On Macragge you dont see Marines...you see normal humans. But thats logistics, as far as combat goes...a squad of ten Marines can probably knock out an entire planetary fortress, or fight their way through a capital ship. Its game over once you see that strike cruiser descending from orbit...

Not even the novels justify their capabilities, the history/ Imperial propaganda (is there a difference?) gives a much better picture.

Justanotherguy999
05-04-2008, 23:53
I think 1,000 marines are too few because, as mentioned, they can't absorb significant losses. One of the Imperial Armour books depicts the Dark Angels lossing fully 500 marines and various tanks (a land raider command variant, at least, if memory holds up). They die. A lot.

And then, if we actually sit down and think about it, Marines fail. They can't accomplish the egregious excesses of the worst of the fluff, and the reasonable stuff just paints them as embarassing. Things that they can reasonably be expected to do are very narrow in scope, and much of it can still be accomplished by other troops that are extremely less fussy. It might just be me not being fluff guru, but Imperial Stormtroopers and the various assassins aren't all 1 in whatever figure who can accept Marine implants (which are terribly flawed and result in Marines being, for the rest of their lives, forever under the Sword of Damocles in the forms of hormonal imbalances that can wreck them).

The reverse doesn't generally seem to be true - the Guard gets it pretty hard, but if you think about it, the Guard's the scariest thing humanity can muster. Millions of guys with guns. Hundreds of thousands of big, powerful tanks. All that artillery. Tyrannids rolling over a world is easy to believe. Same with orks or necrons.

Even 10,000 Marines isn't enough to take a world, let alone be unstoppable (as the Black Templars Chapter in totality is said to be). It'd help them be less lame and pathetic.

Drachenfell
06-04-2008, 08:34
you people need to play with movie marines and then come here ad tell me that a thousand isn't enough. Especially after a tactical squad manages to wipe out your 1.5k point army without breaking a sweat.

They not elite soldiers. They're mutants 8 foot tall clad in armour thatd make an challenger blush. Packing armour piercing rocket launchers. They spit acid train every day for a hundred years and can suffer horrific injuries and fight on.

Don't compare them to real world elites as it does not do them justice. They're the best soldiers in the galaxy and they are that way for a reason. Trust me a thousand per chapter is more than enough.

DantesInferno
06-04-2008, 09:01
you people need to play with movie marines and then come here ad tell me that a thousand isn't enough. Especially after a tactical squad manages to wipe out your 1.5k point army without breaking a sweat.

They not elite soldiers. They're mutants 8 foot tall clad in armour thatd make an challenger blush. Packing armour piercing rocket launchers. They spit acid train every day for a hundred years and can suffer horrific injuries and fight on.

Don't compare them to real world elites as it does not do them justice. They're the best soldiers in the galaxy and they are that way for a reason. Trust me a thousand per chapter is more than enough.

Except, of course, Movie Marines aren't meant to represent Marines as they "really" are in the 41st millennium. The article is pretty clear that Movie Marines represent Marines as they are in the Imperium's propaganda movies.

Hence the presence of stunt doubles and so forth in the army list....

Nazguire
06-04-2008, 15:17
you people need to play with movie marines and then come here ad tell me that a thousand isn't enough. Especially after a tactical squad manages to wipe out your 1.5k point army without breaking a sweat.

They not elite soldiers. They're mutants 8 foot tall clad in armour thatd make an challenger blush. Packing armour piercing rocket launchers. They spit acid train every day for a hundred years and can suffer horrific injuries and fight on.

Don't compare them to real world elites as it does not do them justice. They're the best soldiers in the galaxy and they are that way for a reason. Trust me a thousand per chapter is more than enough.

A 1000 people is about the size of an average high school. How big are planets?
Now putting some common sense into that and you'll realise that if a Marine Chapter was to try and take a world of Earth size and population (or even half our population) each Marine would have to single handedly defend an area thousands of kilometers in diameter.

Archangel_Ruined
06-04-2008, 17:18
Fluffwise it's broken what ten marines alone can achieve on a battlefield. 100 of them dropping out of the sky on an unexpecting foe explains why 1000 is enough. However, I agree that it doesn't work like that at all in game terms, if it did then I'd be personally responsible for wiping out several chapters over the years, and I must have lost at least a company and half of my own marines.

Tanith Ghost
07-04-2008, 06:19
Utilizing the right tactics, a chapter is more than capable of subduing a world with 19th century tech alone. Just the battle fleet puts most planets on the back foot.

Then there's the ability to teleport Terminators inside of command instalations, and the ability to deploy troops onto the weakest link in the enemy defensive lines.

I am curious to know where anyone said in print that the tales of a handful of marines moping the floor with foes many times their number is just propaganda.

Nazguire
07-04-2008, 06:32
Utilizing the right tactics, a chapter is more than capable of subduing a world with 19th century tech alone. Just the battle fleet puts most planets on the back foot.

Then there's the ability to teleport Terminators inside of command instalations, and the ability to deploy troops onto the weakest link in the enemy defensive lines.

I am curious to know where anyone said in print that the tales of a handful of marines moping the floor with foes many times their number is just propaganda.

Being that 19th century technology is steam boats and such then yeah, in all likelihood the Space Marines would have an easy time. The basic firearm in that period wouldn't be able to pierce the Marine's skull, let alone his power armoour, a flamer would spell the end of naval engagements, and an assault cannon would be all that is needed to win a standoff engagement on the ground. Then the Marines mop up the fleeing Redcoats...:p

Terminators teleporting inside a command installation may kill the US Commander in Chief, or an African president or the Queen, but what would that achieve? As others have said before, the Western world has been preparing for a nuclear war for half a century and have tried to cover all eventualities (including the assassination of their command structure).

A 1000 Marines, people, CANNOT subdue a world and conquer it just based on numbers alone. It doesn't matter if they are all twenty feet tall, breathe fire, flowers die from the mere sight of them and Robin Williams becomes funny again. One thousand Marines is not enough to hold a planet of even a quarter of Earth's population.

DantesInferno
07-04-2008, 10:41
A 1000 people is about the size of an average high school. How big are planets?
Now putting some common sense into that and you'll realise that if a Marine Chapter was to try and take a world of Earth size and population (or even half our population) each Marine would have to single handedly defend an area thousands of kilometers in diameter.

Well, for a start, most worlds in the Imperium appear to have worlds with populations in the millions, not billions. Modern Earth would be a fairly populous world by the Imperium's standards.

But the first thing you need to realise is that Marines do not take worlds by literally securing all the land. They don't do it by killing millions of forces lined up against them. Instead, kill a few thousand in surgical strikes and leave the rest leaderless, thoroughly demoralised, unable to act cohesively or resupply, and generally in awe at the Emperor's Angels of Death.

A Chapter of Marines is not capable of long-term pacification of moderately sized (say 100+ million people) worlds of standard Imperial techonology level, if the population and armed forces are sufficiently motivated to provide continued resistance. The Marines can certainly conduct decapitation strikes on anyone who stands against them, but if people continue to rise up to defy the Emperor, it's hard to imagine that the world could count as "pacified". And while a Marine Chapter is capable of fighting and winning pitched battles against well-armed PDF or IG forces of much greater size, it's simply a massive risk and waste of resources. Leave that to the Imperial forces who will arrive later: they're much more efficient at it (as in a Guard force may lose 100 times as many men as a Marine Chapter in beating a rogue PDF army, but still do it more efficiently in terms of overall Imperial resources spent on the issue).

Basically, the Marines' job will depend on the size of the world, and the ease with which it will be knocked into submission. Large worlds or worlds which will provide continued significant resistance are outside the capability of a Marine Chapter to pacify, and the bulk of the work is going have to be done by other Imperial organisations who can do the job more efficiently.

And this shouldn't be too much of a surprise. It was, after all, the whole point of the Codex Astartes reform that Guilliman implemented. The Astartes were
meant to be reliant on other branches of the Imperium for major operations to prevent something like the Heresy happening again.

Drachenfell
07-04-2008, 14:09
I don't understand why you people can't accept that a thousand marines is enough. Youre basically saying they're humans with today tech in weapons. Marines operate on destroying command centres and destroying key figures and armies in devastating scalpel attacks.

There was a thread at relic where people were convinced that today society of mankind could hold off a chapter of marines. Well lets see. Their armour is pretty much impervious to today light arms fire. Their air support, fleet and hit and run attacks would decimate any coherabt military force on the planet. Go leaders. No hiding place. Having to deal with indestructable mutants and you seem to think we'd stand a chance.

o.o

Nazguire
07-04-2008, 14:50
I don't understand why you people can't accept that a thousand marines is enough. Youre basically saying they're humans with today tech in weapons. Marines operate on destroying command centres and destroying key figures and armies in devastating scalpel attacks.

There was a thread at relic where people were convinced that today society of mankind could hold off a chapter of marines. Well lets see. Their armour is pretty much impervious to today light arms fire. Their air support, fleet and hit and run attacks would decimate any coherabt military force on the planet. Go leaders. No hiding place. Having to deal with indestructable mutants and you seem to think we'd stand a chance.

o.o

I haven't said that 'they're humans with today's tech and weapons'. I fully understand that they are genetically engineered killing machines and armed with incredible weapons and armour.

If we factor in the 'space bombardment thing' yes, our armies would be pretty much destroyed in a wide open battle. But do space ships conquer planets? No they don't.

Thunderhawks may be armed to the teeth, but they are aerodynamically abysmal. They aren't fighter craft. They are fast well armed transports.

We have weapons other then M-16s and more of them then there are Marines.

They aren't indestructable. Marines die. If they didn't, the Imperium would be fine and dandy. They die. It takes a lot to kill one, especially in Terminator armour, but they do die. Get this idea that they are invincible out of your head. Use common sense. We outnumber ( in armed troops) a Chapter 100 to 1. 1000 to 1 even. And yes they can 'fight battles of their choosings' but sooner or later they have to fight the enemy one on one to destroy it. Hit and run raids only do so far. Aerial bombardment only goes so far. Modern warfare proves this without a doubt.

Drachenfell
07-04-2008, 15:08
You say that you understand that they are superhuman killing machines but I don't think you do. By the time there is a conventional weapon confrontation of ground forces you'd be lucky if there were anywhere near those odds.

In addition youre facing far far far superior troops, firepower and most importantly tactics. They would out do the best trained army in a heart beat. Remember that the space marines don't hold worlds they pacify them. Youre armies end up dead and governors etc appointed along with a PDF or guard regiment.

I doubt that even on the odds that youre talking about (and no you don't know the aerodynamic properties if a thunderhawk nor the other gizmos that make the damned thing work) they'd still beat us. Why? Because youre throwing inferior trips against a brick wall of supermen. Thundehawks may have the agility of today fighter aircraft and can hover (a big advantage over non VTOL aircraft as the falklands showed us) along with armour that is likely to withstand most air to air munitions.

Remember this is 40 thousand years in the future with a genetically engineered army that is using relic technology from an age where the human race invested only in war. Alloys are stronger. Their version of normal humans such as the guard are probably better armed and better trained than our current special forces.

I'm trying to use common sense and this is what I think. Sorry if you don't agree but that's what the forums are for.

One more thing. Air superiority is the most important part of warfare. As will space superiority be in the future. If you have air support large scale ground forces are nullified. Intel is greater and more reliable. Air superiority doesn't win wars. But it mops the floor does the dishes and the ironing while all you've got to do is switch on the TV. So to speak. For instance in Iraq at the moment air superiority crippled the Iraqi armed forces and pretty much ended any mass ground confrontations in a very short amour of time. That and the awesome job done by our armed forces over there means were peacekeeping at the moment. So try not to underestimate air superiority and support.

Nazguire
07-04-2008, 15:45
You say that you understand that they are superhuman killing machines but I don't think you do. By the time there is a conventional weapon confrontation of ground forces you'd be lucky if there were anywhere near those odds.

I do understand what they are about. I'm a background nut for 40k. I've read pretty much everything to do with Space Marines. I understand what their implants do and their engineering does, and that their armour is hard and that they can spit acid.$



In addition youre facing far far far superior troops, firepower and most importantly tactics. They would out do the best trained army in a heart beat. Remember that the space marines don't hold worlds they pacify them. Youre armies end up dead and governors etc appointed along with a PDF or guard regiment.

So we're not talking about holding worlds now, we're talking about 'pacifying them?'

They (a Chapter) can destroy the 2 million army regulars that the People's Army of China has alone? Not to mention the millions of other regular army soldiers that the rest of the world has? Not including the Air Force and Navies?

That isn't a 'Guard regiment'. That's a hell of a lot more then a Guard regiment.




I doubt that even on the odds that youre talking about (and no you don't know the aerodynamic properties if a thunderhawk nor the other gizmos that make the damned thing work) they'd still beat us. Why? Because youre throwing inferior trips against a brick wall of supermen. Thundehawks may have the agility of today fighter aircraft and can hover (a big advantage over non VTOL aircraft as the falklands showed us) along with armour that is likely to withstand most air to air munitions.

Do you understand basic aerodynamics?

Thin, angular and stream-lined creates less resistance to wind. What is a Thunderhawk? A flying brick. With wings. And a turbo-laser on top. Loaded with heavy duty equipment and infantry.

Check out the IA and tell me that the Thunderhawk is faster and is as agile as today's fighters are. It can hover? Fantastic...makes the Thunderhawk much easier to bring down with a barrage of anti-aircraft missiles. And being that there would be a hundred of them if that for an entire Chapter...and you have to take into account the whole world's air forces (unless you've narrowed it down to only a regiment or single nation's army now) and suddenly the Thunderhawk, while technologically superior is also outnumbered a thousand to one.




Remember this is 40 thousand years in the future with a genetically engineered army that is using relic technology from an age where the human race invested only in war. Alloys are stronger. Their version of normal humans such as the guard are probably better armed and better trained than our current special forces.

That's great but we're not talking about the Imperial Guard, which I don't doubt for a second are better then our average Army regular. And yes it's 40 thousand years into the future, but not 40 thousand years of constant technological progress. Age of Strife? Horus Heresy? They use tanks that are held together with rivets? For every technological wonder (void shields, warp engines) we have evidence of primitive technology and strategy (hit someone with a bayonet, tanks with ridiculously high profiles)



One more thing. Air superiority is the most important part of warfare. As will space superiority be in the future. If you have air support large scale ground forces are nullified. Intel is greater and more reliable. Air superiority doesn't win wars. But it mops the floor does the dishes and the ironing while all you've got to do is switch on the TV. So to speak. For instance in Iraq at the moment air superiority crippled the Iraqi armed forces and pretty much ended any mass ground confrontations in a very short amour of time. That and the awesome job done by our armed forces over there means were peacekeeping at the moment. So try not to underestimate air superiority and support.

The environment in Iraq is a lot different then it is in other nations. Air power did jack in Vietnam. And it isn't as simple as that, otherwise the US would not be in Iraq currently, because they'd be 'watching TV'. But that's P n R.
I'm also a history buff, so I have a good understanding of what air power does and what it doesn't do when it is applied.

Lord Malice
07-04-2008, 15:47
I'll para-phrase a post of mine last time this topic came up:


Another point worth considering is just how much the space marines would need to fight in order to subdue a planet.

I really do hate myself for making the analogy but imagine if a mere company of marines arrived at the earth as it is. Currently the countries most active militarily are in the progress of prosecuting a war that has cost Britain alone £23 billion so far. Fuel prices are soaring, everyone is getting fed up and our soldiers are getting tired. How long do we suppose it would take for the marines to pin point the MI5 builing in London? Less than one day I would say thanks to advanced scanning technology and psykers. The same goes for No10, the Pentagon and the White House. Two orbital strikes later and MI5 and the Pentagon are rubble, Downing Street and the White House could be taken with a combat squad each (an unarmoured special agent with a pistol versus a marine? We know what the outcome will be). Thunderhawks then proceed to destroy all the oil tankers crossing the oceans and destroy all the power stations (noting at this point two things; firstly British soldiers in Afghanistan are having such a hard time because they rely heavily upon the energy produced by a hydro-electric damn which means they cannot afford to go anywhere and so come under constant attack they have no real answer for; a marine's power pack on the other hand can last for over a century and the marine himself could fight for weeks without sleep even nevermind without food. Secondly if power was denied for over a week a country would fall into anarchy. Look at New Orleans for a recent example, within four days armed gangs were shooting at police helicopters trashing stores and businesses and doing all sorts of stuff. If the American (or any countries) energy grid was destroyed that country would turn on itself in a matter of days).

Then we all get our evening meals interupted by a special news broadcast. Our national leaders have been captured, our military intelligence decapitated and we our given a simple ulitmatum by an armour glad giant, 'Join us or die'. Our militaries, despite their weaponry, simply would not be able to get anywhere without being seen by the marine's orbiting cruiser and would not be able to utilise their technology effectively and our national populations would turn on themselves for resources (food, water, power). The marines would not need to fight our armies in order to crush them, they would have an orbital staging ground out of our reach and he ability to go to any point on the earth at whim unlike our scattered and un-unified militaries.

Most Imperial worlds, which are where marines fight almost exclusively, are prey to the exact same problems; too many people, not enough resources, scattered military bases and a population (unlike ours) who quail at the very mention of the Emperor's Angels of Death. The marines don't need to kill every enemy soldier to win, they have the means, tactics and capability to follow the most expedient course of action; take for instance the use by an Inquisitor of the White Panthers who could have regained control of a world by simply executing the Planetary Governor and his handful of loyal troops but instead ran rings around the PDF and obliterated them all (weakening the planet to defend against any future invasions/rebellions in the process). Marines don't fight wars in the way we understand them and are capable of doing a very great deal to ensure victory. In other scenarios they almost never fight alone and if they do they have very specific goals in mind where an all out victory is not needed.


The Space Marines fight in chapters of one thousand men for a very specific reason, because if they're were more of them they could literally conquer the galaxy. Guilliman created the chapter structure deliberately to limit the effectiveness of the space marines so that if they do go renegade they aren't able to seriously hurt the Imperium.

The chapters are deliberately forced to reply upon the Imperium, its resources and forces but even so, the military strength of a single chapter is monstrous. Our games of 40K do not represent the true way in which a chapter fights, they are designed to entertain not to represent as realistically as possible how our armies fight. If they were you would hardly ever see marines used (or a lot of the armies for that matter).

Chapters can and do subdue worlds on their own but this is not their function in the current Imperium. They are shock troops designed to cripple enemy space craft and provide assistance to the Imperial Guard by making lightning strikes against key locations. Anyone who thinks a marine chapter patiently waits for a planetary population and its PDF to line up on one side of the battlefield before the two race at each other is talking rubbish. If that scenario were to happen the marines would be overwhelmed by numbers but marines don't stand around waiting for their enemies to come and get them.

Lord Inquisitor
07-04-2008, 16:10
I think 1,000 marines are too few because, as mentioned, they can't absorb significant losses. One of the Imperial Armour books depicts the Dark Angels lossing fully 500 marines and various tanks (a land raider command variant, at least, if memory holds up). They die. A lot.
They try not to.

Yes, a Chapter will suffer casualties, but typically will attempt to fight engagements where they don't. There are plenty of examples (the first Soul Drinkers novel, for example) where they persecute the enemy and do not suffer casualties. These are specifically:

- Where the Space Marines can strike decisively (preferably without warning)
- Where the Space Marines can engage the enemy at short range, one-on-one.

Yes, in open battle they do tend to suffer horrible casualties. They don't fight like that - battles like boarding actions are what the Space Marines excel at - the raw personal power of the Adeptus Astartes can be brought to bear against the enemy who cannot deploy superior numbers effectively. They also try not to commit a whole Chapter in any one arena to prevent a serious loss crippling the Chapter.



The Space Marines fight in chapters of one thousand men for a very specific reason, because if they're were more of them they could literally conquer the galaxy. Guilliman created the chapter structure deliberately to limit the effectiveness of the space marines so that if they do go renegade they aren't able to seriously hurt the Imperium.
Exactly. The whole point of them being only 1,000-strong is so that they can't take planets unaided. It is one of the only ways the Imperium can constrain a Chapter.

Because think about it. What can the Imperium - and specifically the Inquisition - seriously do if a Chapter decides that it doesn't want to play nice? If a Chapter fails to produce a gene-seed tithe, for example, there are very few diplomatic channels that can be pursued before an Inquisitor turns up at the head of a battlefleet with the order to captiulate or die. Both a Chapter's fleet assets and ground capabilities have got to be constrained before it becomes impossible for heretical Chapters like the Relictors to be punished.

Of course, this rule can't apply to the Chambers Militant. The Inquisition must necessarily wield greater power than the Chapters it watches over. Naturally.

Drachenfell
07-04-2008, 16:14
so youre a 40k nut but completely disregard the background written where chapters pacify and destroy entire star system spanning civilizations with ease. Yet beleive that we'd fight them off.

I'm sorry but even if youre Reading the fluff it isn't getting through. They can take us over because they have done it a hundred times before in the fluff on larger scales. Marines are always outnumbered.

And no you don't know if a barrage of today missiles would take down a hovering thunderhawk. I know a lot of this is assumption, but to simply say that you could a) field the worlds armies on one theatre if war b) cordinate them all in a full scale attack c) assume that current munitions would be of any effect is a big leap.

I'm not trying to belittle you nor have a go. But theres plenty of background material that depicts squads of marines and companies defeating armies of the size your talking about in open warfare. To debt it because you don't think its plausible is to say you disregard anti grav because you don't think it'd work.

I just can imagine the numbers youre talking about throwing themselves against a numerically smaller but far superior enemy and failing. Power armour and bolters play a big part in this. As do superior firepower tactics training and support of which space based and air support would play a great role.

rosie_187
07-04-2008, 16:32
Taking the Spanish conquest of the Americas as an example, it would seem to be eminently possible for a vastly outnumbered force with superior technology and doctrine to successfully pimp-slap a numerically superior but comparatively primitively armed and organized force pretty sharpish.

Firaxin
07-04-2008, 16:36
It's all about force projection, first strike capability, and shock and awe. Marines can take planets. They can't hold them. Well they can, but they'll end up with an Iraq/Afghanistan situation. You're all half-right, so deal with it.

And because Marines aren't meant to hold a world, saying that their numbers are too few as a consequence is like saying that fighter jets are useless because they can't fly through a jungle.

Lord Malice
07-04-2008, 16:43
It's all about force projection, first strike capability, and shock and awe. Marines can take planets. They can't hold them. Well they can, but they'll end up with an Iraq/Afghanistan situation. You're all half-right, so deal with it.

And because Marines aren't meant to hold a world, saying that their numbers are too few as a consequence is like saying that fighter jets are useless because they can't fly through a jungle.

That's exactly true. Marines can take worlds as they are an offensive force (those who specialise in defensive tactics are suitably note-worthy for doing so) but they rarely hold them afterwards just on their own because they're too busy getting to their next attack, they leave garrison duties to the Guard and Navy.

Drachenfell
07-04-2008, 16:51
It's all about force projection, first strike capability, and shock and awe. Marines can take planets. They can't hold them. Well they can, but they'll end up with an Iraq/Afghanistan situation. You're all half-right, so deal with it.

And because Marines aren't meant to hold a world, saying that their numbers are too few as a consequence is like saying that fighter jets are useless because they can't fly through a jungle.

QFT.

Thats a fair compromise. I would expect marines to win and pacify worlds whilst leaving indoctrination and peace keeping to the guard or other forces.

Glabro
08-04-2008, 15:18
Just to put things into perspective, at the start of Unternehmen Barbarossa, Over 5.5 million troops of the Axis powers invaded the USSR along an 1,800 mile front.

My beef with marines is that they regularly do stuff well out of proportion to their capabilities and role in the background. Take Armageddon for example, the arrival of three chapters instantly turned a massive planetary invasion around. Blood Angels are quoted as destroying over half of a hive attack force by themselves (millions of orks). The above-quoted White Panthers story is another. The Crimson Fists' defence of Rynn's World with a fragment of their strength also counts. There are numerous other examples.

We already know by the stories that even small arms are a threat to marines, especially squad based heavy weaponry such as autocannon and missile launchers. We also know that a single tactical marine cannot count on defeating an entire mob of orks in combat by himself, but faces a very real prospect of dying (orks are hard).

Space marines are capable of accomplishing surgical precision strikes in ideal conditions that assist the actual fighting elements of the Imperium. Their PR and morale value is also immeasurable.
The way they are blown out of proportion in the fluff simply illustrates how the Imperium wants the citizens to feel about marines.

Thermopylae, you say....well, sadly, Thermopylae isn't a good analogy for modern combat, except for Macragge, the Thermopylae of 40k, where the marines faced masses of purely close combat troops in extremely tight quarters. Any static defence line of super-elite warriors will be blown away by the ordnance a force 300-500 times the size of the elites can bring to bear. The only viable mode of warfare for them is the hit & fade that disrupts the enemy.

Note that I recognize the superiority of Space Marines and agree with the Master Chief analogy. I also think that the Force Commander statline represents marines well, except they could have S5, T4(5) and a plethora of USRs like Feel no Pain, the equivalents of Terminator armour as well as something like Assault 2 S5 rending (5th ed version) bolters and rending close combat attacks. (Note: this would only be balanced against the like of Guardsmen in the current rules, many Xenos troops are also toned down.)

Also note that my viewpoint can also represent how I think things SHOULD be in 40k background, not how they actually are. If GW writes background that depicts marines taking over worlds and destroying uncounted millions of enemy troops, then that's what happened in the canon. All I'm saying is that that sort of fluff is rubbish and doesn't adhere to how I'd want to see 40k depicted. It's not like I can say it didn't happen if it's printed in a codex or WD. It's just stuff written by guys that have no idea whatsoever about the realities of warfare.

Therefore arguing about is pretty redundant. It's plain to see that the numbers are all wrong from a logical viewpoint. It's equally plain to see that logic doesn't apply to 40k and whatever GW writes is canon as it's their property. We shouldn't confuse these facts with each other, however. I assumed from the start that this discussion is about how things should logically work in 40k, not how they are written in 40k canon. Therefore, merely quoting silly stories from the canon doesn't constitute a logical argument in this thread, as logic isn't a matter of belief.

taylor637
08-04-2008, 22:44
i agree 1000 Astarte's isn't enough even if one can best 100 normal men.......that really wouldn't be enough....people are taking the scale of things the wrong way. people have to remember these are planets not small towns and if u also think that one special mission to take out the command and control would be all there used for than that would also be dumb. i envision a 40k chapter having to have a minimum of 5 to 10 thousand marines there is no other way to wage a galactic wide conflict covering millions of planets and thousands upon thousands of battle fields, with the heresy legion numbers at 250 to 500 thousand marines.........at 500k per legion thats still only 10 million astartes to take over the galaxy....still low


i don't necessarily agree with the Astartes being used for just special missions i think there used as lets say modern day rangers or marines with specialist green beret and delta among them. it kinda pisses me off that GW didnt take into account the scale of it all.....

Glabro
08-04-2008, 23:31
Just keep in mind that the Imperial Guard's strength is measured in the tens to hundreds of trillions of highly trained professional soldiers with excellent support.

The PDFs probably outnumber the Guard ten to one as well, but aren't quite as well supported overall as the Guard, which is the mobile strike force of the Imperium, while the PDFs handle static defence.

slaanghoul
09-04-2008, 02:32
Iíve read this whole thread and I have to say that in no way can a chapter take over a world. Now Iím also seeing a lot of ppl saying ďwell .. . a world pop is only about 1 million now. . .. ď come on now!

First of all, 1k marines canít take over a world. If the world pop is only 1million, then I might say yes. I mean. . . that is like sending a chapter to take over Houston or Miami.
Come on .. . now. . . a chapter taking over Houston or Earth .. . big different.

So no, a Chapter canít take over world, even our today Earth will beat Space Wolf, Blood Angles, and Black Tem all together!

Do you understand what it is like to take over a planet and control it. Yes I know, SM doesnít control the planet, thatís up to the guards. But before you hand over a planet to the guards, you have to be able to control it first. The fluff stated that SM can take over planet. . . so I understood it as the planet surrender to SM control.

Heck, 3 chapters canít even take over USA and how the heck can they take over NATO, USSR, and China!

OK, so you send Terminators teleport to Whitehouse and killed the President and VP and bombed the crap out of Washington from space. Big deal . . . you think us American will surrender just because Washington is destroyed? Heck me and my homeboy back in Texas never set foot in DC. Let alone we gona surrender just cuz SM took out our president? Worst case is SM chapter will turn Earth into WW2 Europe by bombs from space. And you canít never ever force a nation to surrender just by control air or space. Look at Germany and UK in WW2, their cities were destroyed. . . but people fight on. Japan surrender from the 2 nukes because their military power were gone anyway. But surrendering to 1000 men is a joke just because they can bomb you from space. Chances are if I live in the forest in Texas, those SM will never ever see me face to face or force me to surrender.

OK so 1K SM, lets just take over 10 countries for now, and deals with the other 150ish later.
Send 1k marines in 10 units (each unit of 10 squads=100 men per unit) into 10 countries. All this in day one. What can 100 men do to UK, or LOL China?

Worst case situation .. . wow 100 men is beating the crap out of Beijing! What will the Chinese do .. .? Ok we hit them with our best guns, tanks and fighters and those Space Marines will not go down. . . . . . we have no choice. . . we Nuke them and kill about one million of our own ppl also, but it is the only way to win. OK so China set up the SM to attack one base and inside the base is a Nuke bomb. . . What?! we only killed 20 marines after the bomb! OK we just have to use 5 Nuke bombs next time . .. .

So yes, it would be a tough fight but . .. dude. . . noway can 1000 men take over Earth in modern time. And our modern time Earth is so divided in to many countries and states. . . now a Hive World with one ruler .. . come on .. even eaiser to defend.

Here is a interesting Math, for you.
If a planet has 6 Billion pop. And One chapter SM were to line up all the planets pop. In long ass line. Each spacemarines has a bolt pistol with unlimited ammo. Each marine kill one person per second. It will take the Chapter about 69 days to kill every person on that line.

That is why 1000 marines is not enough to take over a planet.

Now if a SM can do what the guys in Dragonballz can, then yes. . . but a Marines is still just a man with two arms that a Axe to the face will kill it. . . OK maybe an Axe to the face 12 times, but still

Gromdal
09-04-2008, 08:59
1k marines are plenty.

does it make any sense? no

nothing in 40k does

Glabro
09-04-2008, 11:05
1k marines are plenty.

does it make any sense? no

nothing in 40k does

A good summation of my point.
Basically, marines land on a warzone and suddenly reality and believability warp and Space Marines win by divine intervention.

And Slaanghoul: Spoken like a true redneck! Just remember that even the equivalent of a Bradley's main gun is a dire threat to marines. Not sure if shaped charges work against marine armour as we don't see any of those in 40k, but if they do, LAWs and the like are plentiful...

Another more interesting topic is what Space Marines SHOULD be able to do without the mandate of heaven...

MvS
09-04-2008, 12:02
The imagery is a bit silly when it comes to Marines, but then again remember there is a difference between the effective crippling of a country's (or planet's in this case) military-industrial might and its occupation, crushing of remaining resistance and complete 'pacification'.

A Chapter could certainly cripple all communication sattelites around a planet like Earth and block any remaining transmissions using their superior technology, effectively blinding most of the planet. They could bombard all identifiable military bases and missile silos from orbit. They could destroy the physical buildings of all Stock Exchanges and Trade Centres, along with all their occupants. They could destroy the government buildings of the most militarily powerful countries, probably catching more than a few government figures as they do so. In other words, they could destroy the ability of a planet of our own tech level to mount a coherent and effective counter strike, all before any Marine actually lays a boot on Earth's soil.

Once landed, if the Marines in question are like the Ultramarines, they may land in two or three major cities as a scare tactic and finally open up the airways to their transmissions only, explaining who they are and that the Earth is under their control and that everyone will be treated fairly and well, providing we all tow the line and go about our daily business until the rest of the Imperial Fleet (thousands of Guards, Mechanicum, Ecclesiarchy and Administratum Adepts). Essentially, with this model, the Marines would only be interested in crippling the planet's ability to mount a coherent full-scale military opposition.

If a less charitable Chapter took charge, I imagine that massive collective punishment would be the order of the day. If after the major armies had been destroyed or scattered from orbit a large pocket of armed civilians in Houston Texas decided to try and organise against the invaders, then Houston would likely be incinerated from above, with the results televised all over the globe. The message being, resistence is both deadly and futile.

Again, remember that in real terms a force such as the Astartes are supposed to represent would not have to destroy all forms of resistence everywhere. Any number of guerilla groups could head for the hills and any number of combat cells could flee to the sewers of major cities, but what if all the Marines wanted to do was defeat a planet's major industry of war - its nukes, missile silos, warships, airbases and the governments and command structures that control them - and thereby its means to mount major World War style operations against the Imperial invaders. We can't even use the analogy of Taliban in Afghanistan or insurgents in Iraq, because in those countries the USA and its allies are trying to occupy and control the country in a day to day sense (to varying degrees of course). The Astartes are not occupying troops, they just exist to destroy - either selectively (missile bases and command structures etc) or completely (orbital bombardment until no life remains).

In fact it is probable that some governments might even decide to collaborate with the invading Marines in order to assure the survival of their own people. If the USA, the world's one military superpower, had all its major civilian and military centres completely and utterly destroyed from orbit, I would imagine other countries might accept an olive branch from the Marines if it meant avoiding the same fate.

If Europe and the Russian federation decided to launch their Nuclear arms against a crushed USA in the hopes of hitting a few Marines, who is to say the Marines would be stupid enough to sit amongst the rubble and dust of Washington waiting for a counter strike? Surely they would just wait in orbit, transmitting only the messages and images they want to the planet below.

So a planet like ours COULD be effectively defeated without the Marines having to hunt down and kill every resistence fighter and even without having to crush every single country. The poor old Guard would have to do all the years of 'mopping up' that involves policing hostile urvban environments, hunting militias through the mountains and suchlike. But this won't mean that the Imperium won't already be reaping the resource benefits of the planet they've effectively crushed...

All this said, the idea that one, or even several chapters could wipe out all resistence on a completely hostile planet, pacifying it completely, is a joke. Perhaps in the pre Heresy days of Marine legions, but not any more. Not by a long shot.

oCoYoRoAoKo
09-04-2008, 13:00
uber senor mcmuffins



Fixed.

Cy.

Nazguire
09-04-2008, 13:42
The imagery is a bit silly when it comes to Marines, but then again remember there is a difference between the effective crippling of a country's (or planet's in this case) military-industrial might and its occupation, crushing of remaining resistance and complete 'pacification'.

A Chapter could certainly cripple all communication sattelites around a planet like Earth and block any remaining transmissions using their superior technology, effectively blinding most of the planet. They could bombard all identifiable military bases and missile silos from orbit. They could destroy the physical buildings of all Stock Exchanges and Trade Centres, along with all their occupants. They could destroy the government buildings of the most militarily powerful countries, probably catching more than a few government figures as they do so. In other words, they could destroy the ability of a planet of our own tech level to mount a coherent and effective counter strike, all before any Marine actually lays a boot on Earth's soil.

Once landed, if the Marines in question are like the Ultramarines, they may land in two or three major cities as a scare tactic and finally open up the airways to their transmissions only, explaining who they are and that the Earth is under their control and that everyone will be treated fairly and well, providing we all tow the line and go about our daily business until the rest of the Imperial Fleet (thousands of Guards, Mechanicum, Ecclesiarchy and Administratum Adepts). Essentially, with this model, the Marines would only be interested in crippling the planet's ability to mount a coherent full-scale military opposition.

If a less charitable Chapter took charge, I imagine that massive collective punishment would be the order of the day. If after the major armies had been destroyed or scattered from orbit a large pocket of armed civilians in Houston Texas decided to try and organise against the invaders, then Houston would likely be incinerated from above, with the results televised all over the globe. The message being, resistence is both deadly and futile.

Again, remember that in real terms a force such as the Astartes are supposed to represent would not have to destroy all forms of resistence everywhere. Any number of guerilla groups could head for the hills and any number of combat cells could flee to the sewers of major cities, but what if all the Marines wanted to do was defeat a planet's major industry of war - its nukes, missile silos, warships, airbases and the governments and command structures that control them - and thereby its means to mount major World War style operations against the Imperial invaders. We can't even use the analogy of Taliban in Afghanistan or insurgents in Iraq, because in those countries the USA and its allies are trying to occupy and control the country in a day to day sense (to varying degrees of course). The Astartes are not occupying troops, they just exist to destroy - either selectively (missile bases and command structures etc) or completely (orbital bombardment until no life remains).

In fact it is probable that some governments might even decide to collaborate with the invading Marines in order to assure the survival of their own people. If the USA, the world's one military superpower, had all its major civilian and military centres completely and utterly destroyed from orbit, I would imagine other countries might accept an olive branch from the Marines if it meant avoiding the same fate.

If Europe and the Russian federation decided to launch their Nuclear arms against a crushed USA in the hopes of hitting a few Marines, who is to say the Marines would be stupid enough to sit amongst the rubble and dust of Washington waiting for a counter strike? Surely they would just wait in orbit, transmitting only the messages and images they want to the planet below.

So a planet like ours COULD be effectively defeated without the Marines having to hunt down and kill every resistence fighter and even without having to crush every single country. The poor old Guard would have to do all the years of 'mopping up' that involves policing hostile urvban environments, hunting militias through the mountains and suchlike. But this won't mean that the Imperium won't already be reaping the resource benefits of the planet they've effectively crushed...

All this said, the idea that one, or even several chapters could wipe out all resistence on a completely hostile planet, pacifying it completely, is a joke. Perhaps in the pre Heresy days of Marine legions, but not any more. Not by a long shot.

To join in this trend that is popping up lately amongst posters

QFT.

Grey Seer Skretch
09-04-2008, 13:57
I think this is that same old thing about tabletop rules against fluff. In terms of gaming, Marines have to be toned down so that A) as a product range they are viable and B) you don't end up with an army that consists of about 10 models (altho that'd be kinda cool). But in the fluff, the point of Marines is that they are utterly, fearsomly, ludicrously hard. Yeah its a thousand men, but they're like, 1000 Supermans minus the flying ability. I don't think they're ever supposed to have an easy time of it, their numbers being so scarce, but at the same time they are meant to be utterly, supremely hard! Like, John McClaine in Die-Hard looks like a pussy by comparison hard...Check out, for the closest thing to fluff/gaming correlation, the Space Marine in Inquisitor. Dear gods you can spend a whole game head-shotting the damn thing, and still he rampages onward! I think the idea with Marines is that they would be used in a VERY specific way, playing to whatever strength they possess most of and then withdrawing before the foe can bring enough force to bear. In the meantime, the marines would have utterly and compltely obliterated whatever forces were in the area they attacked. In a way, a Space Marine strikeforce is more like an A-Bomb than a unit of Elite Forces in the 'contemporary modern warfare' comparison; while the Imperium fights its wars with the navy and the guard, they point the marines at whatever they absolutely positively have to make dead in any given warzone and BLAT it goes away. Also, I think its worth remembering that although its a galaxy of untold billions, and although 1000 men in that number is infinitesimally small, theres so many chapters that the strikeforces they deploy would work as a thin but deadly web or superstructure, shoring up the more numerous Imperial forces which form the majority of their armies. Well, thats my 2 pence worth anyhoo...

Lord Malice
09-04-2008, 15:03
So yes, it would be a tough fight but . .. dude. . . noway can 1000 men take over Earth in modern time. And our modern time Earth is so divided in to many countries and states. . . now a Hive World with one ruler .. . come on .. even eaiser to defend.

As I said earlier, all the marines would need to do is orbitally bombard all power stations and without power there would be planetary wide anarchy within one week. Given conservative estimates for mortality rates should the earth suffer an energy crisis due to global warming there would be an 80% reduction in global population (well over five billion people dead at current figures).

So after billions of people have fought each other for resources and then died from starvation and disease what really would the marines need to do? What little resistance the survivor's could be bothered to put up would be laughable.

The Astartes do not have to fight and defeat a military force to pacify and conquer a world although they often do. It would be comparatively easy to destroy a hive world by simply blocading it and stopping food being shipped in from agri-worlds (this being the preferred tactic as even a particularly long re-supply due to warp storms, et cetera, can cause the deaths of untold millions). A world of hundreds of billions with no means to grow their own food would starve to death in a matter of weeks even if they didn't slaughter each other first fighting over what little food did exist.

Added to this is the fact that most planetary populations do not turn against the Imperium. For those worlds which do it is usually only the ruling elite which is corrupted in some way and so ordinary Imperial folk who see the Emperor's Finest marching down the high street would cheer them on as they dispatch the hated traitors. It is almost inconceivable that a force of Astartes would need to combat the entire population of a world and there are numerous background references where Imperial forces have been joined by ordinary citizens in the fight to re-claim a world.

For those who believe that the Crimson Fists couldn't defend their homeworld, and variously other chapters in similar situations, I think you forget that a chapter has at its disposal a huge number of serfs. The Ultramarines have their own Astartes trained PDF regiments even, tens of thousands strong as well as the rest of the human population (normally a planet of hardened warrior cultures for an Astartes homweworld) who would also fight any invader.

No marine chapter fights for or defends a world alone. There are countless other forces, military or otherwise who join in but these little people get forgotten in the background as for some reason they are seen as just not fun enough to write about.

I will also reiterate the point that chapters are limited to one thousand fighting men (dependant on other forces for support) for a very specific reason. If they were tens of thousands strong, or what-ever other ludicrous numbers have been mentioned in this thread, they would present a huge threat to the Imperium. The space marines are feared by everyone, especially Inquisitors and other Imperial bodies, not just by mankind's enemies, because they are capable of such crushing victories when there is enough of them.

Lord Inquisitor
09-04-2008, 17:35
Added to this is the fact that most planetary populations do not turn against the Imperium. For those worlds which do it is usually only the ruling elite which is corrupted in some way and so ordinary Imperial folk who see the Emperor's Finest marching down the high street would cheer them on as they dispatch the hated traitors. It is almost inconceivable that a force of Astartes would need to combat the entire population of a world and there are numerous background references where Imperial forces have been joined by ordinary citizens in the fight to re-claim a world.
While I agree with most of your points, I would just like to interject here that there are examples when said corrupt ruling elite has simply told the populace/armed forces that they are going to be attacked by Chaos Marines.

But to summarise:
- yes, Space Marines do "take" planets alone, even one company. What this means typically is simply destroying the planet's military infrastructure and command, not actually holding any ground, and is usually limited to relatively poorly-defended or low-population planets.
- no, Space Marines simply do not have the numbers to fight any kind of protracted meatgrinder, full fleet engagements or hold any serious amount of area. This is quite deliberate, as set out by the Codex Astartes to limit the danger posed by rogue Chapters.

slaanghoul
10-04-2008, 08:03
As I said earlier, all the marines would need to do is orbitally bombard all power stations and without power there would be planetary wide anarchy within one week. Given conservative estimates for mortality rates should the earth suffer an energy crisis due to global warming there would be an 80% reduction in global population (well over five billion people dead at current figures).

So after billions of people have fought each other for resources and then died from starvation and disease what really would the marines need to do? What little resistance the survivor's could be bothered to put up would be laughable.

The Astartes do not have to fight and defeat a military force to pacify and conquer a world although they often do. It would be comparatively easy to destroy a hive world by simply blocading it and stopping food being shipped in from agri-worlds (this being the preferred tactic as even a particularly long re-supply due to warp storms, et cetera, can cause the deaths of untold millions). A world of hundreds of billions with no means to grow their own food would starve to death in a matter of weeks even if they didn't slaughter each other first fighting over what little food did exist.

Added to this is the fact that most planetary populations do not turn against the Imperium. For those worlds which do it is usually only the ruling elite which is corrupted in some way and so ordinary Imperial folk who see the Emperor's Finest marching down the high street would cheer them on as they dispatch the hated traitors. It is almost inconceivable that a force of Astartes would need to combat the entire population of a world and there are numerous background references where Imperial forces have been joined by ordinary citizens in the fight to re-claim a world.

For those who believe that the Crimson Fists couldn't defend their homeworld, and variously other chapters in similar situations, I think you forget that a chapter has at its disposal a huge number of serfs. The Ultramarines have their own Astartes trained PDF regiments even, tens of thousands strong as well as the rest of the human population (normally a planet of hardened warrior cultures for an Astartes homweworld) who would also fight any invader.

No marine chapter fights for or defends a world alone. There are countless other forces, military or otherwise who join in but these little people get forgotten in the background as for some reason they are seen as just not fun enough to write about.

I will also reiterate the point that chapters are limited to one thousand fighting men (dependant on other forces for support) for a very specific reason. If they were tens of thousands strong, or what-ever other ludicrous numbers have been mentioned in this thread, they would present a huge threat to the Imperium. The space marines are feared by everyone, especially Inquisitors and other Imperial bodies, not just by mankind's enemies, because they are capable of such crushing victories when there is enough of them.



- - - - - - -- - - - -
I disagree with the figure above and I'll point it out later.

The bottom line is this, what most ppl are saying is that the SM will just stay on Orbit and bomb the crap out of key target and SM don't even need to set foot on the planet. I agree with this statement, however and here is the catcher. One - would a chapter have enough resources and weapons to cause that kind of destruction? How many warheads can one Chapter carry? Two - and this is the main point, if SM can do all that from space. . . why can't IG? Why would you even need SM if IG can bomb a world to death w/ even more firepower from space than SM.

When we talk about SM fighting for planet with only 1000 marines I mean fighting on the planet with a few support from space. If you talk about just stay in space, then IG forces can do that. Heck even I can do that with training on how to push buttons from space with no way for earth to reach me.

Back to your point of earth going anarchy because our resources has dried up. Yeah, some anarchy and looting is normal in wartime. But for Earth to surrender to a Xeno from another planet . .. it would take more than just "oh you blow up my factory, my food supplies, my fuel, etc . .. " Basically, SM from space will destroyed the Earth economies, key resources, some military missile silo that are in the open, key transportation and thats about it. Now after all that, Earth is not even close to surrender or loose the will to fight. Yeah most western or industrialised countries will be uncomfortable, but fighting guys in Burma, Nigeria, Taliban, Colombia, etc.. .. . are used to this kind of conditions and effect them almost nothing. Heck even guys in Texas will band up and get our hunting rifles and run to the hills. I'm not even sure if we even need to hind in the hills because I would guess only San Anotonio, Dallas, Houston, Austin and lets just say 20 more military bases in Texas got bomb. Heck .. . I'll go to south Parda island and fish and live it up still.

With out ground control and such a small Spaceship with only 1000 men ... . it is impossible to control Earth. Once human scatter and hide and ready for a fight .. . . sooner or later SM will have to come down and mop up. And how long will it take for SM to force American to surrender with only 1000 men? I would say at least 10 years if not more or ever!

Also no way will earth start killing each other just so they can have gas and food after one week of bombing. And %80 of earth dead with in the first week again, no way. Lets just look at USA. IF Xeno were to bomb/nuke us and take out 100 major cities (that is two cities of each state) + take out all the power station like Hooverdamn and such .. . The rest of the country will be in chaos but American will still fight on. We will use horses, morse code, smoke single or what ever it takes to communicate. I mean, if Russia or China were to attack USA and did all of the above like SM, Americans are not going to surrender to them. Now vs. Xeno from spaces, heck no!

I would say that after all the destruction of the 1st week, USA pop will be down by 25% at most and the other 75% are very pissed off as hell and ready to fight. By now most Americans will be hiding underground, bunker, subway system, etc. .. . food shouldn't be too much of a problem because we have so much food in Supermarket and such. With out SM on ground, ppl can just drive to the market and loot the food and come back to their houses and be find. With only 1000 marines, it is impossilbe to track over 1000 cities that is left and small town supermarket and cattle farm etc. .. . Food is a lot left.

Let me put it like this, Remember the movie ID4. The xeno has lots of ship and they still had a hard time hitting all the major site of the world and killing all the people. SM has less ships than those ID4, how can they even tries to take out all the food sources and important site location.

Bottom line is this, Yeah SM have the tech and power, but NOT ENOUGH MAN POWER to ever take Earth. I would say that they would need at least 10,000 SM, but I would say more like 100,000 SM to take over earth and force Earth to surrender.

Objective: Force Earth to surrender so Imperial can take over earth and use earth as farm world. Don't care if only 10% of earth pop is left alive and all farmable are destroyed. Imperial have the tech to rebuild the land even after it has been nuke and repopulate earth as farmers.
Time: You have 3 years

Yeah force chart would be something like this
Enough battleship with enough ammo to bomb/ nuke 10,000 cities
Enough ammo to burn most of earth surface, island all about 90% of earth surface will be burned
1000 SM ground force
Action plan:
day 1 - bomb/nuke all 10,000 cites - only Japan is left untouch.
Day 3 - start world scale forest fire - except Japan.
- Earth, we will not harm Japan. Japan is a safe zone. if you do not wish to die and wish to serve the Imperial, move to Japan now. You have 1 week.

Day 10
As firebombs are raining down from the sky, any resistance such as firer trucks or fire fighter will also be firebombed.

Let the earth burned for one year.

Year two,
By now most living people will be in Japan fear for their lives. I'm sure they will have weapons ready to fight any landing party or they just might outright ready to surrender, who knows, but after one year of earth fire. . . there should be no more hope for human to fight SM

The rest of the earth is on fired or burned all land are ashed with no crops, trees, or anything left anywhere.

Now the SM lands and ready to fight any resistance or Japan if they choose to fight.


Key to victory from the above is that SM must have enough firepower to cause search a destruction from space. Do they have that? Do you know how much 10,000 nukes warhead will take up space? What about all the firebombs to cause global fire?

If a chapter can do that from space, then yeah 1 chapter is enough. Heck even 10 marines can cause any planet to surrender if they have that kind of fire power and is untouchable from space.

Gromdal
10-04-2008, 08:28
As I said earlier, all the marines would need to do is orbitally bombard all power stations and without power there would be planetary wide anarchy within one week. Given conservative estimates for mortality rates should the earth suffer an energy crisis due to global warming there would be an 80% reduction in global population (well over five billion people dead at current figures).

So after billions of people have fought each other for resources and then died from starvation and disease what really would the marines need to do? What little resistance the survivor's could be bothered to put up would be laughable.

The Astartes do not have to fight and defeat a military force to pacify and conquer a world although they often do. It would be comparatively easy to destroy a hive world by simply blocading it and stopping food being shipped in from agri-worlds (this being the preferred tactic as even a particularly long re-supply due to warp storms, et cetera, can cause the deaths of untold millions). A world of hundreds of billions with no means to grow their own food would starve to death in a matter of weeks even if they didn't slaughter each other first fighting over what little food did exist.

Added to this is the fact that most planetary populations do not turn against the Imperium. For those worlds which do it is usually only the ruling elite which is corrupted in some way and so ordinary Imperial folk who see the Emperor's Finest marching down the high street would cheer them on as they dispatch the hated traitors. It is almost inconceivable that a force of Astartes would need to combat the entire population of a world and there are numerous background references where Imperial forces have been joined by ordinary citizens in the fight to re-claim a world.

For those who believe that the Crimson Fists couldn't defend their homeworld, and variously other chapters in similar situations, I think you forget that a chapter has at its disposal a huge number of serfs. The Ultramarines have their own Astartes trained PDF regiments even, tens of thousands strong as well as the rest of the human population (normally a planet of hardened warrior cultures for an Astartes homweworld) who would also fight any invader.

No marine chapter fights for or defends a world alone. There are countless other forces, military or otherwise who join in but these little people get forgotten in the background as for some reason they are seen as just not fun enough to write about.

I will also reiterate the point that chapters are limited to one thousand fighting men (dependant on other forces for support) for a very specific reason. If they were tens of thousands strong, or what-ever other ludicrous numbers have been mentioned in this thread, they would present a huge threat to the Imperium. The space marines are feared by everyone, especially Inquisitors and other Imperial bodies, not just by mankind's enemies, because they are capable of such crushing victories when there is enough of them.



- - - - - - -- - - - -
I disagree with the figure above and I'll point it out later.

The bottom line is this, what most ppl are saying is that the SM will just stay on Orbit and bomb the crap out of key target and SM don't even need to set foot on the planet. I agree with this statement, however and here is the catcher. One - would a chapter have enough resources and weapons to cause that kind of destruction? How many warheads can one Chapter carry? Two - and this is the main point, if SM can do all that from space. . . why can't IG? Why would you even need SM if IG can bomb a world to death w/ even more firepower from space than SM.

When we talk about SM fighting for planet with only 1000 marines I mean fighting on the planet with a few support from space. If you talk about just stay in space, then IG forces can do that. Heck even I can do that with training on how to push buttons from space with no way for earth to reach me.

Back to your point of earth going anarchy because our resources has dried up. Yeah, some anarchy and looting is normal in wartime. But for Earth to surrender to a Xeno from another planet . .. it would take more than just "oh you blow up my factory, my food supplies, my fuel, etc . .. " Basically, SM from space will destroyed the Earth economies, key resources, some military missile silo that are in the open, key transportation and thats about it. Now after all that, Earth is not even close to surrender or loose the will to fight. Yeah most western or industrialised countries will be uncomfortable, but fighting guys in Burma, Nigeria, Taliban, Colombia, etc.. .. . are used to this kind of conditions and effect them almost nothing. Heck even guys in Texas will band up and get our hunting rifles and run to the hills. I'm not even sure if we even need to hind in the hills because I would guess only San Anotonio, Dallas, Houston, Austin and lets just say 20 more military bases in Texas got bomb. Heck .. . I'll go to south Parda island and fish and live it up still.

With out ground control and such a small Spaceship with only 1000 men ... . it is impossible to control Earth. Once human scatter and hide and ready for a fight .. . . sooner or later SM will have to come down and mop up. And how long will it take for SM to force American to surrender with only 1000 men? I would say at least 10 years if not more or ever!

Also no way will earth start killing each other just so they can have gas and food after one week of bombing. And %80 of earth dead with in the first week again, no way. Lets just look at USA. IF Xeno were to bomb/nuke us and take out 100 major cities (that is two cities of each state) + take out all the power station like Hooverdamn and such .. . The rest of the country will be in chaos but American will still fight on. We will use horses, morse code, smoke single or what ever it takes to communicate. I mean, if Russia or China were to attack USA and did all of the above like SM, Americans are not going to surrender to them. Now vs. Xeno from spaces, heck no!

I would say that after all the destruction of the 1st week, USA pop will be down by 25% at most and the other 75% are very pissed off as hell and ready to fight. By now most Americans will be hiding underground, bunker, subway system, etc. .. . food shouldn't be too much of a problem because we have so much food in Supermarket and such. With out SM on ground, ppl can just drive to the market and loot the food and come back to their houses and be find. With only 1000 marines, it is impossilbe to track over 1000 cities that is left and small town supermarket and cattle farm etc. .. . Food is a lot left.

Let me put it like this, Remember the movie ID4. The xeno has lots of ship and they still had a hard time hitting all the major site of the world and killing all the people. SM has less ships than those ID4, how can they even tries to take out all the food sources and important site location.

Bottom line is this, Yeah SM have the tech and power, but NOT ENOUGH MAN POWER to ever take Earth. I would say that they would need at least 10,000 SM, but I would say more like 100,000 SM to take over earth and force Earth to surrender.

Objective: Force Earth to surrender so Imperial can take over earth and use earth as farm world. Don't care if only 10% of earth pop is left alive and all farmable are destroyed. Imperial have the tech to rebuild the land even after it has been nuke and repopulate earth as farmers.
Time: You have 3 years

Yeah force chart would be something like this
Enough battleship with enough ammo to bomb/ nuke 10,000 cities
Enough ammo to burn most of earth surface, island all about 90% of earth surface will be burned
1000 SM ground force
Action plan:
day 1 - bomb/nuke all 10,000 cites - only Japan is left untouch.
Day 3 - start world scale forest fire - except Japan.
- Earth, we will not harm Japan. Japan is a safe zone. if you do not wish to die and wish to serve the Imperial, move to Japan now. You have 1 week.

Day 10
As firebombs are raining down from the sky, any resistance such as firer trucks or fire fighter will also be firebombed.

Let the earth burned for one year.

Year two,
By now most living people will be in Japan fear for their lives. I'm sure they will have weapons ready to fight any landing party or they just might outright ready to surrender, who knows, but after one year of earth fire. . . there should be no more hope for human to fight SM

The rest of the earth is on fired or burned all land are ashed with no crops, trees, or anything left anywhere.

Now the SM lands and ready to fight any resistance or Japan if they choose to fight.


Key to victory from the above is that SM must have enough firepower to cause search a destruction from space. Do they have that? Do you know how much 10,000 nukes warhead will take up space? What about all the firebombs to cause global fire?

If a chapter can do that from space, then yeah 1 chapter is enough. Heck even 10 marines can cause any planet to surrender if they have that kind of fire power and is untouchable from space.

Now this i find amusing, all the armies of 40k would get slaughtered by a single soldier from any army in rl. those plastics aint to dangerous you know.
Anyways if they did attack earth we could jst use Superman to kill em all....oh wait.....both of em are our fantasy works....

Gilfred The Iron Knight
10-04-2008, 08:56
well the problem is that you are thinking of marines fighting conventionaly and without guard help. The marines would rock up with their 1 battle barge, a lot of drop pods and thunderhawks, and 100 marines + extras. the battle barge will then level anything important on the planet, eg military agriculture or other viable resources. then when the planets army would moblise the marines deep strike in, shoot the place up and then leave again. all the gun-hoe armicans would flee to the hills and the planet will eventually surrender after their army gets killed by deep striking marines.

there fore marines take planet.

However.

Then the IG turn up and mop up what the marines left like americans hiding in the hills just incase the vietcong, taliban or Iraqis are back to defeat their army again, destroy anything that doesnt conform to imperial rule.

in conclusion, Marines can take a planet but they dont hold them. that is the IGs job.

Perfect Organism
10-04-2008, 10:05
I haven't read the entire thread, but it seems that a lot of people are ignoring the cultural / psychological effect of seeing actual Space Marines on average Imperial citizens. I think it would be something like having an army of angels turn up and blowing the crap out of stuff on modern day Earth.

Also, not every world in the Imperium is as developed or populated as modern day Earth. A lot of them are still basically medieval worlds with a few high-tech items.

EDIT: Actually, Dante's Inferno made almost exactly those points on page five. Ignore me.

oCoYoRoAoKo
10-04-2008, 13:01
The bottom line is this, what most ppl are saying is that the SM will just stay on Orbit and bomb the crap out of key target and SM don't even need to set foot on the planet. I agree with this statement, however and here is the catcher. One - would a chapter have enough resources and weapons to cause that kind of destruction? How many warheads can one Chapter carry? Two - and this is the main point, if SM can do all that from space. . . why can't IG? Why would you even need SM if IG can bomb a world to death w/ even more firepower from space than SM.

When we talk about SM fighting for planet with only 1000 marines I mean fighting on the planet with a few support from space. If you talk about just stay in space, then IG forces can do that. Heck even I can do that with training on how to push buttons from space with no way for earth to reach me.

Back to your point of earth going anarchy because our resources has dried up. Yeah, some anarchy and looting is normal in wartime. But for Earth to surrender to a Xeno from another planet . .. it would take more than just "oh you blow up my factory, my food supplies, my fuel, etc . .. " Basically, SM from space will destroyed the Earth economies, key resources, some military missile silo that are in the open, key transportation and thats about it. Now after all that, Earth is not even close to surrender or loose the will to fight. Yeah most western or industrialised countries will be uncomfortable, but fighting guys in Burma, Nigeria, Taliban, Colombia, etc.. .. . are used to this kind of conditions and effect them almost nothing. Heck even guys in Texas will band up and get our hunting rifles and run to the hills. I'm not even sure if we even need to hind in the hills because I would guess only San Anotonio, Dallas, Houston, Austin and lets just say 20 more military bases in Texas got bomb. Heck .. . I'll go to south Parda island and fish and live it up still.

With out ground control and such a small Spaceship with only 1000 men ... . it is impossible to control Earth. Once human scatter and hide and ready for a fight .. . . sooner or later SM will have to come down and mop up. And how long will it take for SM to force American to surrender with only 1000 men? I would say at least 10 years if not more or ever!

Also no way will earth start killing each other just so they can have gas and food after one week of bombing. And %80 of earth dead with in the first week again, no way. Lets just look at USA. IF Xeno were to bomb/nuke us and take out 100 major cities (that is two cities of each state) + take out all the power station like Hooverdamn and such .. . The rest of the country will be in chaos but American will still fight on. We will use horses, morse code, smoke single or what ever it takes to communicate. I mean, if Russia or China were to attack USA and did all of the above like SM, Americans are not going to surrender to them. Now vs. Xeno from spaces, heck no!

I would say that after all the destruction of the 1st week, USA pop will be down by 25% at most and the other 75% are very pissed off as hell and ready to fight. By now most Americans will be hiding underground, bunker, subway system, etc. .. . food shouldn't be too much of a problem because we have so much food in Supermarket and such. With out SM on ground, ppl can just drive to the market and loot the food and come back to their houses and be find. With only 1000 marines, it is impossilbe to track over 1000 cities that is left and small town supermarket and cattle farm etc. .. . Food is a lot left.

Let me put it like this, Remember the movie ID4. The xeno has lots of ship and they still had a hard time hitting all the major site of the world and killing all the people. SM has less ships than those ID4, how can they even tries to take out all the food sources and important site location.

Bottom line is this, Yeah SM have the tech and power, but NOT ENOUGH MAN POWER to ever take Earth. I would say that they would need at least 10,000 SM, but I would say more like 100,000 SM to take over earth and force Earth to surrender.

Objective: Force Earth to surrender so Imperial can take over earth and use earth as farm world. Don't care if only 10% of earth pop is left alive and all farmable are destroyed. Imperial have the tech to rebuild the land even after it has been nuke and repopulate earth as farmers.
Time: You have 3 years

Yeah force chart would be something like this
Enough battleship with enough ammo to bomb/ nuke 10,000 cities
Enough ammo to burn most of earth surface, island all about 90% of earth surface will be burned
1000 SM ground force
Action plan:
day 1 - bomb/nuke all 10,000 cites - only Japan is left untouch.
Day 3 - start world scale forest fire - except Japan.
- Earth, we will not harm Japan. Japan is a safe zone. if you do not wish to die and wish to serve the Imperial, move to Japan now. You have 1 week.

Day 10
As firebombs are raining down from the sky, any resistance such as firer trucks or fire fighter will also be firebombed.

Let the earth burned for one year.

Year two,
By now most living people will be in Japan fear for their lives. I'm sure they will have weapons ready to fight any landing party or they just might outright ready to surrender, who knows, but after one year of earth fire. . . there should be no more hope for human to fight SM

The rest of the earth is on fired or burned all land are ashed with no crops, trees, or anything left anywhere.

Now the SM lands and ready to fight any resistance or Japan if they choose to fight.


Key to victory from the above is that SM must have enough firepower to cause search a destruction from space. Do they have that? Do you know how much 10,000 nukes warhead will take up space? What about all the firebombs to cause global fire?

If a chapter can do that from space, then yeah 1 chapter is enough. Heck even 10 marines can cause any planet to surrender if they have that kind of fire power and is untouchable from space.

wait, what? you make some assumptions here that just don't hold water. let me explain:

1. the sheer scale of the ships in the space marine fleet: the upper size of a standard Imperial Escort is up to 3 kilometres. light and standard cruisers are anywhere between 4 and 6 kilometers, grand cruisers anywhere between 6 and 8 kilometers, and battleships ranging from 8 to 10 kilometers, with certain rare vessels exceeding this range. (An example would be Warmaster Horus' flagship, which was noted in the Horus Heresy series as being nearly 15km long.) Battleships also have crews of up to 3,000,000.

2. the destructive power of the weapons in 40k. you are basing your arguement on the assumption that the destruction caused by weapons (most notably missiles and torpedoes) in wh40k are equal to that of a standard nuke. this is simply false. in 40k we have weapons capable of destroying entire planets and even stars. also, if we are talking about destruction on the scale of say, exterminatus, they use virus-bombs for that. and if your asking if the space marine fleet have enough "space" for all of these weapons, the answer is yes as they (to my knowledge) are fully capable of carying out exterminatus from orbit.

3. the imperial guard cant do it from space because THEY, LIKE THE SOB ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE A FLEET. now the imperial navy can, and indeed do bomb planets into dust. the guard are called upon to capture and hold planets that the imperials dont want to completely destroy but actually use in the future or hold some sort of strategic importance.

4. most people have a better sense of self preservation then you do it seems. only fools fight loosing wars. what are they holding out for? reinforcements? they dont exist. remember, annoy the marines enough and its exterminatus time :D

Cy.

Stingray_tm
10-04-2008, 15:38
Okay, do give you an idea about the scales we are talking. Here is a real life example:

Germany's Kommando Spezialkršfte is supposed to consist of the toughest meanest motherhumpers in the German Bundeswehr. There are about 1000 of those dudes, that probably can be compared to Delta Force, Navy Seals, SAS and other modern NATO special forces. So they are among the elite of the elite of this planet. And they are very few, compared to the overall population of Germany, which is about 80 millions.
Now if i extrapolate that number on the actual number of people on the whole planet, there should be about 75000 of them, but i mean come on, the United States alone probably has more Special Forces than that, so my estimate is VERY conservative.

So what does that mean? Earth alone would have the equivalent of 75 Space Marine chapters! Now multiply this with the thousands of worlds (GW fluff speaks of million of worlds, but this is the same kind of unrealistic nonsense as the 1000 dudes chapters) and we are closer to the real number of Space Marines, that should be out there. (Maybe 5 billion).

Philip S
10-04-2008, 16:01
Anyone else feel that 1,000 marines is just not enough?
In the reality of 40K marines are special forces.

In our world, looking at the Navy SEALs as an example (seeing as 'marine' is a nautical term), there are (according to wikipedia :P) three 40 man task units per team, and there are 8 (confirmed) teams in 2006 (apparently).

That gives the Navy SEALs 960 men.

Not far off a chapter. Good enough for our world, a world where there are at least 20 wars being fought somewhere in the world at any given time, right now there are, um, 42: World at War (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/)(something the Imperium would not tolerate!),

I thend to think of the Marine Chapter as a Navy SEAL organisation, one whole chapter per world (if needed) though often the divide up (marines being so uber!). Instead of the sea the marine have 'space' and the world is land.

Philip

Stingray_tm
10-04-2008, 16:06
You do realize, that

A. those Navy Seals are not the only Special Forces of the United States
B. the United States are not the only country with the need and or capability to have Special Forces
C. those Navy Seals are NOT good enough for our world with 42 wars, because they are not involved in those wars. If they were, they would find out, that they were too few to even participate effectively in more than two ore three of minor wars.

dr.oetk3r
10-04-2008, 16:20
You do realize, that

A. those Navy Seals are not the only Special Forces of the United States
B. the United States are not the only country with the need and or capability to have Special Forces
C. those Navy Seals are NOT good enough for our world with 42 wars, because they are not involved in those wars. If they were, they would find out, that they were too few to even participate effectively in more than two ore three of minor wars.

I'm sure he does. But do you realize:

A. Marines aren't the only military branch of the Imperium
B. The Marines fulfill objectives, very well i might add.
C. Marines fight in conjuncture with other army units for the Umphteenth time!

...and in the literature, they're dead hard.

Philip S
10-04-2008, 16:25
You do realize, that <snip>
Yes. Obviously.

Each chapter is not the only chapter in the Imperium.

The marines are not involved in all the Imperium's wars (and when I say wars I mean warzones, or more specifically battles). The marines are not the main army, that is what the IG are for, and aside from that; the IG are not the main power of the Imperium, that is the Navy.

The marines have a very limited role (in the 'reality' of 40K), and aside from the times when they are acting like a regular army out in the open, in some exceptional circumstance contrived for a novel, they are special forces. Special forces that decapitate command and control, raid bunkers and ships, and generally perform fast strike missions.

But this is all obvious too. Can we more on to something less obvious?

Philip

Stingray_tm
10-04-2008, 16:27
I'm sure he does. But do you realize:

A. Marines aren't the only military branch of the Imperium
B. The Marines fulfill objectives, very well i might add.
C. Marines fight in conjuncture with other army units for the Umphteenth time!

...and in the literature, they're dead hard.

So what? They are STILL not enough. Do you think the KSK or Navy Seals fight their wars alone? Still there are probably more Special Forces on Earth than Space Marines in the whole 40K universe.
Let's try to fight China with a full platoon of Navy Seals, Power Armoured or not. They might have no casualties, but China will probably have a higher birth rate than the Special Forces kill rate!

dr.oetk3r
10-04-2008, 16:27
Yes. Obviously.

Each chapter is not the only chapter in the Imperium.

The marines are not involved in all the Imperium's wars (and when I say wars I mean warzones, or more specifically battles). The marines are not the main army, that is what the IG are for, and aside from that; the IG are not the main power of the Imperium, that is the Navy.

The marines have a very limited role (in the 'reality' of 40K), and aside from the times when they are acting like a regular army out in the open, in some exceptional circumstance contrived for a novel, they are special forces. Special forces that decapitate command and control, raid bunkers and ships, and generally perform fast strike missions.

But this is all obvious too. Can we more on to something less obvious?

Philip

Sure i agree, but many people on this thread have been saying

"Spak MArineeez Get pwned Lawl! Tooo Few"

I've been saying "They do surgical strikes, thry don't need huge numbers."

The debate continues.

Stingray_tm
10-04-2008, 16:31
Sure i agree, but many people on this thread have been saying

"Spak MArineeez Get pwned Lawl! Tooo Few"

I've been saying "They do surgical strikes, thry don't need huge numbers."

The debate continues.

The Imperium is simply to big. GW fluff speaks of MILLIONs of planets with BILLONS of people on each. With 1000 chapters, those wouldn' even be able to fight wars, because they would be in warp transit all the time, trying to get to the next war zone!

"So after a campaign of 6 months, we finally liberated Hillbill 25. For the Emperor!!!"
"Okay, Brother-Seargant. But while you were fighting heretics, 200 other rebellions were started in this sub sector. Probably 20 of them will be decided, until you have reached one of them, because you need several months to travel to them."

Victomorga
10-04-2008, 16:36
the galaxy is huge. even if the SM are the "movie marines" from WD 300, even if they use special forces tactics, even if most of the fighting is done by other branches of the imperium,

it. doesn't. make. sense.

planets are too big. redeploying on planet can only happen so fast. redeploying both on planet and through out the galaxy can only happen so fast. casualties, even if they are few and far between, will far exceed 1,000 on a regular basis. what about when transports get blown up?

I know people want to believe in the fluff, but it just doesn't work. the physics of it don't work. I wish they did, but the truth is GW first made all this up a long, long time ago without ever realizing how far everything would go. they didn't think it through well enough, and the more time that passes the more the oversights and mistakes in initial development become apparent.

DapperAnarchist
10-04-2008, 16:43
It makes sense if people get over this idea that Space Marines are even SUPPOSED to be everywhere. What was the intent of the Space Marines? To form the cutting edge of a massive crusade. Not to fight on every planet, in every battle, against every rebellion. Now they swing the balance towards the imperium when they can. Saying it doesn't make sense is exactly like saying "Batman can't clean up gotham on his own!". Well, duh. He doesn't. He does what he can to swing thing in favour of the GCPD, who do all the real slog work.

jfrazell
10-04-2008, 16:47
But thats the problem, they do need huge numbers against many of their opponents. Against named threats-chaos, orks, tyranids, necrons, most of this "surgical strike stuff" doesn't work, without high casualties.

I support the surgical strike argument but it needs to be tailored to either-small human colonies, fleet attacks only, or special forces as part of a much larger invasion. The problem is much of the fluff denotes them cleansing planets, running roughshod over orks etc. etc. its not going to happen with those small numbers.

Take just the one instance of the necron ambush on the templers denoted in the Necron codex. Going by other marine fluff that would have put the chapter back years, even centuries. Frankly that was just a skirmish.

Philip S
10-04-2008, 16:50
I've been saying "They do surgical strikes, thry don't need huge numbers."
Indeed. I agree.


The Imperium is simply to big. GW fluff speaks of MILLIONs of planets with BILLONS of people on each.
I think it is worse that you fear, the 200LY sector from Battle Fleet Gothic yields something like 75million inhabited planets for the entire galaxy, of these the amount which are 'Imperial' is anyone's guess. The 'million' is the 'million worlds' line is poetic. Add in the fact that hive worlds go into the multi-billions and even trillions and we have a better picture of how vast the Imperium is.


With 1000 chapters, those wouldn' even be able to fight wars, because they would be in warp transit all the time, trying to get to the next war zone!
Marines do not fight wars (unless by fluke occurrence)


"So after a campaign of 6 months, we finally liberated Hillbill 25. For the Emperor!!!"
"Okay, Brother-Seargant. But while you were fighting heretics, 200 other rebellions were started in this sub sector. Probably 20 of them will be decided, until you have reached one of them, because you need several months to travel to them."
Navy. In a single sector there would be thousands of rebellions, each world (if calm like ours) could have anywhere from 20-40 conflicts, hive worlds would have over a 100. Over a million worlds (of which there are far more in the Imperium) that's 50 million conflicts.

Marines are not needed for the vast majority of these conflicts, marines are needed for less the 0.00000001% (or less). They are used when they are really needed to be used and no other forces (even regular special forces or storm troopers) can do it. As I point out, GW/ BL have covered less than 0.001% of the 'million worlds'.

There are no doubt vast numbers of regular human special forces within the IG. By vast, I mean VAST numbers. billions upon billions of them.

Marines are the poster boys, they are about as common as angels in out real world.

Philip

PS: About the only time I can see marines actually (as in, if 40K made sense) being used if if the Chaos Marines are involved, or deep striking and taking out the leadership of a powers factions (i.e. in command of hundreds of rebel ships).

As an example, if marines attacked a world like ours (not that they would be called to deal with a world like ours) they would attack and decapitate command, for America that would be something like 'Cheyenne Mountain' (NORAD). I think the space marines could take Cheyenne Mountain, I think Terminators teleported into the heart would cause huge problems! (being immune to smallarms fire and grenades wouldn't help either).

Stingray_tm
10-04-2008, 16:50
In this case Gotham is as big as the whole Eurasian continent. That's the problem. So Batman is useless, he can't do enough, so why bother calling him?

Lord Malice
10-04-2008, 17:11
The bottom line is this, what most ppl are saying is that the SM will just stay on Orbit and bomb the crap out of key target and SM don't even need to set foot on the planet. I agree with this statement, however and here is the catcher. One - would a chapter have enough resources and weapons to cause that kind of destruction? How many warheads can one Chapter carry? Two - and this is the main point, if SM can do all that from space. . . why can't IG? Why would you even need SM if IG can bomb a world to death w/ even more firepower from space than SM.

As already pointed out the Imperial Guard could not do this and yes the marines do have the resources.


Back to your point of earth going anarchy because our resources has dried up. Yeah, some anarchy and looting is normal in wartime. But for Earth to surrender to a Xeno from another planet . .. it would take more than just "oh you blow up my factory, my food supplies, my fuel, etc . .. "

Basically, SM from space will destroyed the Earth economies, key resources, some military missile silo that are in the open, key transportation and thats about it.

Now after all that, Earth is not even close to surrender or loose the will to fight. Yeah most western or industrialised countries will be uncomfortable, but fighting guys in Burma, Nigeria, Taliban, Colombia, etc.. .. . are used to this kind of conditions and effect them almost nothing.

Heck even guys in Texas will band up and get our hunting rifles and run to the hills. I'm not even sure if we even need to hind in the hills because I would guess only San Anotonio, Dallas, Houston, Austin and lets just say 20 more military bases in Texas got bomb. Heck .. . I'll go to south Parda island and fish and live it up still.

You do remember what happened in New Orleans don't you? People were commiting suicide, being murdered and looting uncontrollable within the week. If all the power stations acorss the earth were destroyed in quick order it would cause devastating problems.

There would be no clean water for a start and water supplies would run out if the pumps could no longer function. How long do you suppose a major city with hundreds of thousands or millions of people would last if there was no electricity or water? There would also be no heat, little communiation, and no transport.


With out ground control and such a small Spaceship with only 1000 men ... . it is impossible to control Earth. Once human scatter and hide and ready for a fight .. . . sooner or later SM will have to come down and mop up. And how long will it take for SM to force American to surrender with only 1000 men? I would say at least 10 years if not more or ever!

Correction, how long would it take to mop up a country with no food or water and no means to move about other than on foot.


Also no way will earth start killing each other just so they can have gas and food after one week of bombing. And %80 of earth dead with in the first week again, no way. Lets just look at USA. IF Xeno were to bomb/nuke us and take out 100 major cities (that is two cities of each state) + take out all the power station like Hooverdamn and such .. . The rest of the country will be in chaos but American will still fight on. We will use horses, morse code, smoke single or what ever it takes to communicate. I mean, if Russia or China were to attack USA and did all of the above like SM, Americans are not going to surrender to them. Now vs. Xeno from spaces, heck no!

What, everyone will get a horse to ride around on, that's a lot of horses. Since there woudl be dwindling supplies of food and water those horses would most liekly end up as juicy steaks.


I would say that after all the destruction of the 1st week, USA pop will be down by 25% at most and the other 75% are very pissed off as hell and ready to fight. By now most Americans will be hiding underground, bunker, subway system, etc.

Fight who exactly, your enemy is out of reach and you have no food, water or power. Do you really think that getting even would be the top priority? AS for hiding in the subway, the highest casualties suffered during the blitz were among those in the underground/bomb shelters et cetera. The more you concentrate a population the higher the casulties.


food shouldn't be too much of a problem because we have so much food in Supermarket and such.
:p Yes, and with farmers unable to water their crops and feed their animals or for companies to import other goods the food in the supermarket would last for ages to be sure.



With out SM on ground, ppl can just drive to the market and loot the food and come back to their houses and be find. With only 1000 marines, it is impossilbe to track over 1000 cities that is left and small town supermarket and cattle farm etc. .. . Food is a lot left.

Again, when you've looted as much food as you possibly can, fighting anyone who tries to stop while your at it, because you don't know when if ever the shelves will be re-stocked, for how many hours do you suppose you'd be able to make a re-turn trip for more looting?


Let me put it like this, Remember the movie ID4. The xeno has lots of ship and they still had a hard time hitting all the major site of the world and killing all the people. SM has less ships than those ID4, how can they even tries to take out all the food sources and important site location.

Arguing fiction against fiction seems stupid but... Because in the films we always win, in reality we would be slaughtered, that's how.


Bottom line is this, Yeah SM have the tech and power, but NOT ENOUGH MAN POWER to ever take Earth. I would say that they would need at least 10,000 SM, but I would say more like 100,000 SM to take over earth and force Earth to surrender.

Wrong, they could starve the Earth and take out any military, anywhere, any time, very easily. Even with the use of nuclear weapons, assuming that they could be accurately targeted at the marines on the ground, by the time they hit the marines would have already moved on. Tanks and vehicles would be useless without fuel and would only be able to cover a few hundred miles at the most before breaking down. Even rations would only last so long while marines can survive for weeks without eating although they more than likely have plenty on their ship.


Objective: Force Earth to surrender so Imperial can take over earth and use earth as farm world. Don't care if only 10% of earth pop is left alive and all farmable are destroyed. Imperial have the tech to rebuild the land even after it has been nuke and repopulate earth as farmers.
Time: You have 3 years

After the First War for Armageddon the survivors were shipped off to remote areas of the planet, sterilised and left to rot in concentration camps, the whole world was then re-populated. It really would only take a matter of weeks, not years to accomplish this. Without energy there is no fuel, without fuel there is no food, without food there is no resistance. The space marines may be mankind's ultimate guardians but the vast majoirty will not hesitate to slaughter as many people as necessary, there is no Geneva Convention in 40K and the outcome always justifies the means. No Imperial force would think twice about exterminating an entire planetary population in order to achieve victory.

slaanghoul
10-04-2008, 17:15
the galaxy is huge. even if the SM are the "movie marines" from WD 300, even if they use special forces tactics, even if most of the fighting is done by other branches of the imperium,

it. doesn't. make. sense.

planets are too big. redeploying on planet can only happen so fast. redeploying both on planet and through out the galaxy can only happen so fast. casualties, even if they are few and far between, will far exceed 1,000 on a regular basis. what about when transports get blown up?

I know people want to believe in the fluff, but it just doesn't work. the physics of it don't work. I wish they did, but the truth is GW first made all this up a long, long time ago without ever realizing how far everything would go. they didn't think it through well enough, and the more time that passes the more the oversights and mistakes in initial development become apparent.

QFT -
The fluff about 1 chapter taking over planet like earth is BS. I've explain many times already. . . . SM fluff is just overrated. SM are superhuman, but they are not superman like in DC comic. They die quick and they die fast vs. Las cannon and such.

jfrazell
10-04-2008, 17:25
That’s a coherent strategy. Bomb them back into the stone age. Of course, you can’t win that way, but the marines could do massive damage.

The difficulty with this argument is:
1) Their fluff rarely portrays this logical method. Much of the fluff is “land, swing swords around, route billions of orks” Usually only small rebellions where taking out the governor is mentioned in this context. Frankly, why would you need marines to take out the governor? Example, prior to the GKs landing and dealing with Angron, you had pace wolves manning trenches against an LATD type horde. Why would you do that?

2) Similarly, how does this work against xenos scum? It almost never seems to be employed in that method. They invariably seem to end up on the ground, fighting against heavy odds. You can’t decapitate the necron or Nid command structure on the ground. You can try against the Orks but you don’t dare land and I’d dare say they have lots of ntiaircraft/fightabombas to deal with any thunderhawks you might have. Who’s left-Tau? Any fluff of them doing this against Tau? I see Damocles fluff with them ground pounding on the world along with the guard, and getting beat up for it.

That’s my issue. It’s a coherent strategy. But its not a strategy that’s discussed a majority of the time in fluff.

Philip S
10-04-2008, 17:29
QFT -
The fluff about 1 chapter taking over planet like earth is BS. I've explain many times already. . . . SM fluff is just overrated. SM are superhuman, but they are not superman like in DC comic. They die quick and they die fast vs. Las cannon and such.
I agree marines die quick in the open and would have trouble standing up to a Bushmaster 25mm autocannon.

However in close fire-fights (urban and bunker) and things are very different. I mentioned Cheyenne Mountain, I think marine could take that. They would also have space superiority and nukes. They would take out satellites and disable all communications (think of how easy is was to cut of country's from the net by cutting a few cables)

Once NORAD is down or compromised and all information dried up. Any army would have a hard time fighting that, I mean; what are we going to do, nuke Cheyenne Mountain (nuke proof) to kill a few marines? Call another country for help (no comms)? Coordinate an attack with Morse code (possible, unless EMP burst)?

Marines are tactical, their greatest weapon is their mind and hundreds of years of experience. Anything we can think of the marines are one step, no eight steps ahead and just finishing up. Once we are ready to act, they are gone and the Imperial Navy is here (along with the IG) and then serious pacification begins.

Technology superiority goes a long way, even a relatively small leap yields a huge advantage, look at the Iraq war in the initial stages. That's a few decades of advantage, image a few thousand years!


The difficulty with this argument is:
1) Their fluff rarely portrays this logical method. Much of the fluff is “land, swing swords around, route billions of orks”
The exceptions that make a good story.

Considering their power and relative immunity: most of the time marines are bullies committing genocide. Not exactly a great story for the age group.

Philip

jfrazell
10-04-2008, 17:38
Sure they could take Cheyenne Mountain. Could they take Cheyenne Mountain if it were defended by guardsmen with heavy weapons (which is the more relevant test). Likely. But the question is-how many casualties would they take? Again if you use marine fluff you have to use guardsmen fluff as well, including Ghosts fluff. Ghosts vs. marines equals lots of dead marines :)

And thats the essential argument. They are uber tough. But they will take casualties. And per their own fluf only a few casualties will effectively cripple a chapter.

Stingray_tm
10-04-2008, 17:54
Technology superiority goes a long way, even a relatively small leap yields a huge advantage, look at the Iraq war in the initial stages. That's a few decades of advantage, image a few thousand years!


And the US army is still in Iraq. Why? Because bombing the **** out of something doesn't conquer a country. It's not that simple.
Also Marines fight against opponents, who have the same or even better tech-level (Eldar, Tau). So here goes technical superiourity.
Also Space Marines don't really bomb planets for one reason: Then they wouldn't have to fight on the ground, making this whole model game thingy irrelevant.
When Space Marines (Imperium) can bomb a single planet into the stone age, so can other races, too. But they don't (unless the story calls for Exterminatus for dramatical reasons), because this strategy is extremely efficient, but makes for a very boring tabletop game.

Philip S
10-04-2008, 18:02
Sure they could take Cheyenne Mountain. Could they take Cheyenne Mountain if it were defended by guardsmen with heavy weapons (which is the more relevant test). Likely.
Terminator teleport.


And the US army is still in Iraq. Why? Because bombing the **** out of something doesn't conquer a country. It's not that simple.
Never said it was. I was using it as an example of the 'shock and awe' stage of the war and relating that to marines.

If the US had 40K marines, the marines go in first. I will use the M1 tank as a stand in (M1 is more powerful but it will do - please indulge me, perhaps an IFV). Once the initial win is done the 'marines' (M1) go home and the IG take over.

However this is all a bit of a straw man on my part as I do not think the marines of 40K would be used in a war like that. if they were, they would probably be more analogous to the bunker busting smart bombs (not that I think they are explosive!) more they take out a bunker and leave.

Philip

jfrazell
10-04-2008, 18:17
Terminator teleport.


Philip
Yes you just described how they would most likely enter the mountain. Other than a high probability of losing at least one or more to partially teleporting into a wall, stairs, or solid rock, you're correct. Thats how they would enter the complex. Then what? I'm not saying they couldn't get in and do massive devestation. I'm saying it would cause them casualities, and the moment they start taking casualties they are in trouble at their fluff driven sizes and replacement rates.


Further, why teleport when you could lance it from orbit? but then again, at that point there's no real need for marines-just guard and the the navy- and the marines really don't want the Inquisition coming to that same conclusion now, do they?

Lord Malice
10-04-2008, 18:18
Thatís a coherent strategy. Bomb them back into the stone age. Of course, you canít win that way, but the marines could do massive damage.

The difficulty with this argument is:
1) Their fluff rarely portrays this logical method. Much of the fluff is ďland, swing swords around, route billions of orksĒ Usually only small rebellions where taking out the governor is mentioned in this context. Frankly, why would you need marines to take out the governor? Example, prior to the GKs landing and dealing with Angron, you had pace wolves manning trenches against an LATD type horde. Why would you do that?

2) Similarly, how does this work against xenos scum? It almost never seems to be employed in that method. They invariably seem to end up on the ground, fighting against heavy odds. You canít decapitate the necron or Nid command structure on the ground. You can try against the Orks but you donít dare land and Iíd dare say they have lots of ntiaircraft/fightabombas to deal with any thunderhawks you might have. Whoís left-Tau? Any fluff of them doing this against Tau? I see Damocles fluff with them ground pounding on the world along with the guard, and getting beat up for it.

Thatís my issue. Itís a coherent strategy. But its not a strategy thatís discussed a majority of the time in fluff.

Very true but absence of proof is not proof of absence. We have details on only a tiny handful of the chapters which exist and any one of the hundreds we know nothing about could employ such an economical strategy if the situation permitted.

The other thing worth remembering is that there is little or no value of human life in the 40K universe, indeed dying for the Emperor is one of the best things anyone can do ('No man who died for the Emperor died in vain').

Agaisnt Xenos the answer is tricky. I did say earlier that, if our games represented the background almost no gamer would have a marine army. Almost no gamer would have a xenos or Chaos army even.

The Necrons may be Legion but they exist in isolated corners of the galaxy (a deliberate ploy of the C'tan) andso the liklihood of fighting them is next to nil. The same goes for the Eldar and Dark Eldar. Across the galaxy there are probably billions or trillions of them but they only fight when they need to and well known for being sneaky and staying off the radar. The chances of a marine force attacking an exodite homeworld are too small to be accurately calcualted.

Orks are primarily present withing their own areas of space and no Imperial force would or indeed could take an ork world. They could attempt to re-take an ork held Imperial world certainly but the orks we see in our games exist on the fringes of the greater ork society. A simple analogy would be that the ork empire/s and the armies we face in our games are like the sun. The ork hoeworlds are almost impossible to get close to let alone enter (the sun) but battle with rampaging armies is a constant threat (solar flare activity).

The Tyranids are entering the galaxy at specific points and so can sometimes be avoided or planned for but often they arrive unannounced. Only complete destruction of a hive fleet will ensure success and so more often than not the only way to counter them is by using their tactics against them; ie lots of bodies. On a matter of honour I imagine most marines would stand at the forefront of any such engagement. The best background reference for this is a story concerning the Lamenters. True it highlighted their curse but still, they drop pod in and wreak havoc, the beleagured Guardsmen barely have time to shout hurrah before each marine is killed and the Imperials are quickly destroyed.

The Tau only control a tiny tiny amount of the galaxy, roughly one hundred worlds if I recall correctly. They have a tiny population (in the Last Chancers novels Kage doesn't have the heart to explain to one Tau that hundreds of billions of humans can live on just one world where the naive, ignorant Tau supposes that a few hundred billions humans might be all there is) although as the Damocles Crusade highlights, Imperial attempts to destroy them have met with failure because the Imperium has too many wars to fight to really concentrate on the Tau.

As for Chaos, the older background seems to have gone unnoticed recently. Since these armies, races and factions are covered so thoroughly, so often it gives the misleading impression that they are numerous, widespread and regularly encountered but this is not necessarily true. At one time the background stated (although it has not been over-written it's just not been reinforced) that the Administratum would do anything to cover up knowledge of Chaos, which included culling whole planetary populations and Guard regiments used to comabt Chaos, mind-scrubbing marines so they couldn't remember and even exterminatus.

Even so it is that often that whole worlds rise up, in which case it is the Adeptus Arbites who respond first. The Guard, Navy and Astartes are only ever called in when they fail and a world is lost or is in danger of being lost. The Arbites even have their own fleet assests to call upon before they admit that a situation is out of their control.

So that leaves us with marines being used in one of two ways. In conjunction with other Imperial forces and very rarely they can be used for special reasons (the Inquisitor getting help by the White Panthers for instance) almsot without exception against Imperial or at the least, human, worlds.

A PDF really is no match for the marines firstly because everyone is scared of them, having never seen one will only serve to reinforce the idea that marines are some kind of Jungian nightmare made flesh. Secondly because a PDF will generally have no real combat experience. This isolation is often how Imperial Commanders can get the notion that the Imperium won't notice if they declare their world independant. So a loyal PDF with no combat experience is laughing it up when suddenly several squads of marines drop out of a thunderhawk, those men are screwed big time. Not necessarily because they are can't fight back but more because it woudl be like a medieval army of peasants suddenly being attacked by actual angels from heaven. The dread and terror of such an occurence would be all the advantage marines would need. Imperial citizens are incredibly ignorant an even though we as gamers, looking at the numbers know they could win they are too ignorant to realise it, never imagining that if they all turn and fight the marine could be overcome.

DapperAnarchist
10-04-2008, 18:28
Why call Batman? Cos when the Joker appears (A particlarly nasty invader), he's still the best equipped and most experienced. Also, he's an international badass.

Stingray_tm
10-04-2008, 18:30
But there are 2000 Jokers, all appearing at the same time in different places.
It makes sense to call Batman for one district, but the rest is screwed anyway. Batman is not a relevant factor in defending Gotham City against invaders.

jfrazell
10-04-2008, 18:31
Very true but absence of proof is not proof of absence. We have details on only a tiny handful of the chapters which exist and any one of the hundreds we know nothing about could employ such an economical strategy if the situation permitted.

Yet fluff connotates that the vast majority follow the same strategy as the Papsmurfs. Of course by following the above statement I could note that, because its not been stated they can't, there are guard regiments out there wherein each guardsman is equipped with a plasma gun and a vortex grenade, backed by cobra superheavy skimmers on loan from Eldar Craftworld Cheese.


Even so it is that often that whole worlds rise up, in which case it is the Adeptus Arbites who respond first. The Guard, Navy and Astartes are only ever called in when they fail and a world is lost or is in danger of being lost. The Arbites even have their own fleet assests to call upon before they admit that a situation is out of their control.

So that leaves us with marines being used in one of two ways. In conjunction with other Imperial forces and very rarely they can be used for special reasons (the Inquisitor getting help by the White Panthers for instance) almsot without exception against Imperial or at the least, human, worlds.

A PDF really is no match for the marines firstly because everyone is scared of them, having never seen one will only serve to reinforce the idea that marines are some kind of Jungian nightmare made flesh. Secondly because a PDF will generally have no real combat experience. This isolation is often how Imperial Commanders can get the notion that the Imperium won't notice if they declare their world independant. So a loyal PDF with no combat experience is laughing it up when suddenly several squads of marines drop out of a thunderhawk, those men are screwed big time. Not necessarily because they are can't fight back but more because it woudl be like a medieval army of peasants suddenly being attacked by actual angels from heaven. The dread and terror of such an occurence would be all the advantage marines would need. Imperial citizens are incredibly ignorant an even though we as gamers, looking at the numbers know they could win they are too ignorant to realise it, never imagining that if they all turn and fight the marine could be overcome.

I agree with the above statement whole heartedly. We just disagree that, to accomplish these goals, the marines: have to add a digit or two to their numbers; or be able to replace their losses at a much higher rate. Give them an effective replacement rate of two years and this is a much more plausible situation. Inversely, not counting scouts as part of that 1,000 unit number would also work (if there were lots of scouts), effectively turning marine chapters into Persian immortals. The final answer of course is that, in actuality, they rarely fight. They could take relatively high casualties if they most sit around training for years on end between actions. From their often arrogant attitude that could actually be the case. After all, how many marine chapters were involved in the entire Sabbat Crusade? Three?

Victomorga
10-04-2008, 19:32
One chapter of marines couldn't take over earth over earth on their own.

1) marines can't teleport into a mountain. even with a teleport homer they still need an open space.

2) you can't simply "destroy the power plants and food supplies of earth." do you have any idea how big the earth is? how many back-up power supplies and generators there are? how much food there is all over the place?

3) you couldn't take down international communications from space either.

4) where ever these "surgical strikes" are taking place, the area can be bombed by the governments of earth, inevitably killing marines.

this theory doesn't take into account the size of the planet. you really are underestimating the enormity of this planet, let alone the galaxy at large.

Stingray_tm
10-04-2008, 19:36
Amen to that.

dr.oetk3r
10-04-2008, 21:29
It makes sense if people get over this idea that Space Marines are even SUPPOSED to be everywhere. What was the intent of the Space Marines? To form the cutting edge of a massive crusade. Not to fight on every planet, in every battle, against every rebellion. Now they swing the balance towards the imperium when they can. Saying it doesn't make sense is exactly like saying "Batman can't clean up gotham on his own!". Well, duh. He doesn't. He does what he can to swing thing in favour of the GCPD, who do all the real slog work.

Amen.


Why isn't anyone listening? Of course marines can't destroy a planet's communication, food supply, factories single handedly. That's not what they do!!!!!!

You know why they don't get massacred reguarly?

Because they have the best damn everything....ever. They take orbital strikes into account, they take nuclear strikes into account, they take human wave attacks into account. They are space marines.

What about the 300 spartans? They held off 1000's of Persians because they had tactics. Now imagine what a genetically modified super god soldier could do.

THEY DO SURGICAL STRIKES IN CONJUNCTURE WITH OTHER ARMY UNITS.

Stingray_tm
10-04-2008, 21:47
This discussion is not about what Space Marines do. It is about, that they are too few, so whatever they do, it doesn't really matter on the "global" scale. 300 Spartans held off thousands of Persians? Well, in 40K we have 3000 Spartans, but on the other side there are 3 BILLION Persians, who attack in Greece, Japan, Peru and Antarctica, all at the same time. The Spartans holding Thermopylaea doesn't matter at all in the global conflict. But the Spartans of 40K are depicted as the deciding factor of the whole war. That's the point.

Philip S
10-04-2008, 21:54
One chapter of marines couldn't take over earth over earth on their own.
I'm not saying they are taking over.


1) marines can't teleport into a mountain. even with a teleport homer they still need an open space.
I thought they could teleport into Space Hulks?


2) you can't simply "destroy the power plants and food supplies of earth." do you have any idea how big the earth is? how many back-up power supplies and generators there are? how much food there is all over the place?
Why would they even try?

Wouldn't that be a ship tactic?


3) you couldn't take down international communications from space either.
They couldn't destroy satellites and cross sea cables?


4) where ever these "surgical strikes" are taking place, the area can be bombed by the governments of earth, inevitably killing marines.
Bombed by what (exactly)? Wouldn't the strike cruiser see this coming?

Can a strike cruiser shoot aircraft down from orbit? Would super (40K) EMP blast disable these aircraft?

Also, if the marine are in bunkers isn't this a bit tricky to bomb them.


this theory doesn't take into account the size of the planet. you really are underestimating the enormity of this planet, let alone the galaxy at large.
Nah, planets are really bit. However, with space access and tons of nukes the Earth is very fragile.

Aren't marines rad proof? The strike cruiser to clear the land with a nuke strike (super daisy cutter!), drop the pods, dump the marines - who then go and raid the mountain bunker complex.

Philip

Victomorga
10-04-2008, 22:34
first off, everything I said about marines taking over a planet was in response to comments by slaanghoul and MvS.

they don't teleport into space hulks, they breach the walls with boarding vessels. maybe in the old space hulk fluff there was something about teleporting into hulks, but those ships were imperial ships anyway- not enemy territory.

"planetary access?" SM ships aren't very large. how many weapons do you think they have? how big are these ships? how many SM does it take to run these ships? I know the crews are far from all SM, but many of the 1,000 would be commanding these vessels.

nukes: they're not a problem for SM because of radiation, they're a problem because they'll vaporize *****.

surgical strikes? as soon as one of these strikes is wrapping up, what then? what's to stop more kills from being accrued during redeployment?

I'm not saying they can't do it, all I'm arguing is the 1,000 a chapter number. they WILL die. they DO die.

if you want to get specific, lets do it:

1) how many marines are sent down in one of these "surgical strikes?"
2) how many marines maximum are ever deployed on a mission at one time, and how many ships do they arrive in?

dr.oetk3r
10-04-2008, 22:45
I'm not saying they are taking over.


I thought they could teleport into Space Hulks?


Why would they even try?

Wouldn't that be a ship tactic?


They couldn't destroy satellites and cross sea cables?


Bombed by what (exactly)? Wouldn't the strike cruiser see this coming?

Can a strike cruiser shoot aircraft down from orbit? Would super (40K) EMP blast disable these aircraft?

Also, if the marine are in bunkers isn't this a bit tricky to bomb them.


Nah, planets are really bit. However, with space access and tons of nukes the Earth is very fragile.

Aren't marines rad proof? The strike cruiser to clear the land with a nuke strike (super daisy cutter!), drop the pods, dump the marines - who then go and raid the mountain bunker complex.

Philip

QFT


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Tanith Ghost
10-04-2008, 23:25
they don't teleport into space hulks, they breach the walls with boarding vessels. maybe in the old space hulk fluff there was something about teleporting into hulks, but those ships were imperial ships anyway- not enemy territory.


Former Imperial vessels crawling with orks ,genestealers, and whatever else the warp vommited forth. Extremely hostile territory.



"planetary access?" SM ships aren't very large. how many weapons do you think they have? how big are these ships? how many SM does it take to run these ships? I know the crews are far from all SM, but many of the 1,000 would be commanding these vessels.

On a regular basis, a marine battle barge carries the power to enact the ultimate sanction of Extermiantus. And the vessel crew is draw from the local naval pool, not the chapter.



nukes: they're not a problem for SM because of radiation, they're a problem because they'll vaporize *****.

Launching those nukes is a problem when a squad of terminators is holding the control room, and the missles themselves have been sabotaged.



surgical strikes? as soon as one of these strikes is wrapping up, what then? what's to stop more kills from being accrued during redeployment?

If you mean reprisals against the marines, a counter question for you- who would be left in the area to mount a counter assault? Who would move fast enough and still have a chance to best the marine ground forces before they can redeploy?




I'm not saying they can't do it, all I'm arguing is the 1,000 a chapter number. they WILL die. they DO die.

Like everything that bleeds. I know they do die. But they are far, far, more difficult to kill than a typical human.



if you want to get specific, lets do it:

1) how many marines are sent down in one of these "surgical strikes?"
2) how many marines maximum are ever deployed on a mission at one time, and how many ships do they arrive in?

Assuming this is a one company mission-
1) 30-50 men, from the company, equipped per scout and librarian gathered intel suggest will be best.

2)106 battle brethren plus supporting personel(Chaplain, Librarian, Apothecaries, techmarines). Multiple strike cruisers, and/or a battle barge
will oft be employed both to deliver the company and to support it once on the ground, as well as to defeat opposing space forces and seize any orbiting instalations deemed worth capture.


Assuming that a whole chapter's with came out to rumble here-

1) 1-3 companies of battle brethren, and 10-100 terminators(depending on how many suits the chapter or chapters in question have, and how vital the objective is).

2) 1100 marines, plus support staff, armory and dreadnoughts.
The full might of a chapter's fleet can be anywhere from a barge a few strike cruisers to a terrifying handful of barges and up to ten strike cruisers.
Fleet based chapters will boast even more space-borne force.

In either case, woe betide the rebel planet the marines assault.

Lord Malice
11-04-2008, 11:36
A belated reply...



Yet fluff connotates that the vast majority follow the same strategy as the Papsmurfs.

That isn't entirely correct. Most chapters follow the Codex Astartes this is not the same as saying they emulate the Ultramarines chapter.


Of course by following the above statement I could note that, because its not been stated they can't, there are guard regiments out there wherein each guardsman is equipped with a plasma gun and a vortex grenade, backed by cobra superheavy skimmers on loan from Eldar Craftworld Cheese.

You certainly could but I would argue that saying marines can and might simply bombard a world to soften it up first is more reasonable and plausible than your example.



1) marines can't teleport into a mountain. even with a teleport homer they still need an open space.

A teleport homer is for getting back quickly, safely and accurately not for getting in. Teleporters work by sending the teleportee through warp space, mountains or otherwise.


2) you can't simply "destroy the power plants and food supplies of earth." do you have any idea how big the earth is? how many back-up power supplies and generators there are? how much food there is all over the place?

Firstly, the reason why a back-up generator is called a 'back-up generator' is because it is for emergency use. They are there to provide only temporary power until mains power comes back, if mains power never comes back they buy only a few hours or days of grace and nothing more.

I will say it once more, look at New Orleans as an example of how quickly and how badly things can go wrong when they go wrong.

Modern industrial farms, necessary to feed the majority of people who aren't still hunter gatherers, rely on fertilisers and chemicals which are often the by-product of the oil industry. That industry needs power to work, take out the power and you take out the oil refineries, take out the oil you take out the means to farm intensively and if you do that you essentially take away the food of millions of people. Why is it, do you think that so many people live in a state of near starvation, it's because there isn't enough food. We live on a very fine knife edge even a country like the UK has a population that far outstrips its means and relies on foreign imports of food. If the ships which bring that food have no fuel they can't bring it, hence a lot of people end up with no food and starve to death.


3) you couldn't take down international communications from space either.

No electricity, no global communication.


4) where ever these "surgical strikes" are taking place, the area can be bombed by the governments of earth, inevitably killing marines.

Assuming there are any governments left to make those orders or troops to carry them out, or vehicles to get those troops to the right locations.


this theory doesn't take into account the size of the planet. you really are underestimating the enormity of this planet, let alone the galaxy at large.

You over-estimate the survivability of industrialised nations should a fictional army of super men turn up.

Non-industrialised worlds with small populations would be best at surviving a space marine/fleet bourne attack. Of course they would also be so few in number they couldn't safeguard their own planet but that's by-the-by. Any world which relied on power would be vulnerable if that power failed. By extention you could argue that the best way to subdue a rebelling hive world would be to blocade the agri-worlds which supply it.