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View Full Version : So if Great Crusade era space marines are immortal now...



Captain Stern
12-12-2007, 15:13
and since some of the traitors are known to be still alive, then shouldn't there be some imperial ones still kicking around too? And what about the Adeptus Custodes? They just stay in the Imperial Palace all the time, so surely they're the same ones (Constantin Valdor and the rest)?

Hive Mind 33
12-12-2007, 15:19
There is one i think. Only he is in a dreadnought and only awoken to tell wolf priests about Russ

pookie
12-12-2007, 15:32
There is one i think. Only he is in a dreadnought and only awoken to tell wolf priests about Russ

you mean Bjorn, and dep on how you look at it he is the oldest lotal marine around, he was a Blood claw when Russ took his strool that he didnt come back from.

but to answer the Op question, i would have thought that they all would have been killed by now, the Trators only survie this long because of the EoT, its only thought that marines are immortal, and the quote people get this from, even says its because they die before any of them can find out.

heretics bane
12-12-2007, 17:00
Yeah old Bjorn the fell handed 10k years old, oldest living marine ever dantes the oldest marine not intered in a dreadnought. After them no ones lived much longer almost every marine dies fighting or some other way such is there life

Chainsworded Codpiece
12-12-2007, 17:27
...And the Adeptes Custodes ain't talking.

Yeah, some of them could be the same as those that were wandering around enforcing loyalty oaths during the Heresy. Maybe even Constantin Valdor's still hanging out with the Emperor. Maybe.

I'm betting that at some point, Valdor was retired from "Throne-side duty", and became a Lord of Terra.

Can you imagine the double-think those guys (the living remnants who remember the Unification Wars, the Early Imperium, et cetera) must have to deal with?

"yeah, sure, we were fighting to bring the Light of Reason to the Human Galaxy, undiluted by religious fervor or magical thinking of any kind...

"...Except, well, things went haywire, and now, we spread the same Light of Reason, um... just using artificial religious tropes and mystic gibberish to keep everyone's attention on the Big Prize of A Human-Dominant Universe (TM)."

"...Sure, it's silly, and completely counter to what we actually intended, but it's what we do to keep people from succumbing to Warp-Entity-Induced Atavism...yeah, that's a big problem these last few millenia...we call it "daemonic possession" in the current marketing. A good dose of religion-induced fear keeps it at bay...well, except when it doesn't..."

"Hey, we'll knock of all the mumbo-jumbo once once we've won the War To Annhiliate Everything That Isn't Human And Therefore Must Be Antithetical To Humanity. Don't sweat it, THAT little tidbit of philosophy is still used without any new addtions to it..."

heinrichvoncarstein
12-12-2007, 17:41
The reason chaos marines are alive is not because of the EoT but because they use cloning.
ABADDON WAS HORUS' CLONE!!!
So whenever a chaos marine dies they just clone the dna of the dead guy

ryng_sting
12-12-2007, 17:47
No one knows whether the pre-heresy marines, in fact, were immortal. The CSM's have endured simply and solely because time has no meaning within the Eye of Terror.

malika
12-12-2007, 17:57
IIRC those Marines who sided with Horus were granted immortality. Loyalist Marines from that time either died from old age or were killed in battle.

Supremearchmarshal
13-12-2007, 13:21
IIRC those Marines who sided with Horus were granted immortality. Loyalist Marines from that time either died from old age or were killed in battle.

According to the old fluff, yes. It isn't even certain if the Primarchs were immortal (all surviving Chaos Primarchs are now immortal because they're Daemons).

The Laughing Man!
13-12-2007, 13:40
The reason chaos marines are alive is not because of the EoT but because they use cloning.
ABADDON WAS HORUS' CLONE!!!
So whenever a chaos marine dies they just clone the dna of the dead guy

No its because time flows differently in the EOT, forwards, backward, slower, faster, round in little circles, or in some cases not at all, hey its chaos. Chaos marines do use cloning though (Fabius bile in particular) but not to become immortal. Cloning isn't immortality, a clone of you is just a genetic copy of you. A completely separate entity with a separate consciousness and as Abaddon has proved with different stimuli it will develop differently.

Also is Abaddon actually a clone or is that just a rumour?

Captain Stern
13-12-2007, 14:01
No one knows whether the pre-heresy marines, in fact, were immortal. The CSM's have endured simply and solely because time has no meaning within the Eye of Terror.


If they might be immortal and they also live in the Eye, how could you know which of these two forces, (immortality or the nature of the Eye) was responsible for them still being alive?

pookie
13-12-2007, 14:05
The reason chaos marines are alive is not because of the EoT but because they use cloning.
ABADDON WAS HORUS' CLONE!!!
So whenever a chaos marine dies they just clone the dna of the dead guy

no he isnt! its a rumour, if anything little Aximand was the clone not Abbadon.

Kage2020
13-12-2007, 15:20
For me, Space Marines are not immortal. Neither are the Primarchs. They might be long-lived - say a handful of centuries - but not immortal.

Of course, everyone can make up their own mind about it. That's probably why the 'fluff' is written in the way it is... ;)

Kage

Londinium
13-12-2007, 15:37
Even if you are immortal (Crusade era marines), if you live your entire life immersed in battle, the possibility of you surviving drops every year you're alive, until after a certain point it hits pretty much 0% statistically, so that eliminates any chance of non dreadnought interred loyalists surviving.

Heresy era Chaos marines survive as others have stated precisely because of the time warping effects of the Eye, and Abaddon is not Horus' clone arrrgh, they don't even look similar.

Pilgrim
13-12-2007, 18:01
According to the old fluff, yes. It isn't even certain if the Primarchs were immortal (all surviving Chaos Primarchs are now immortal because they're Daemons).

In fact, the Codex Imperialis from 2nd edition specifically states about the primarchs "Although long lived, they were not immortal", and describes the last of them finally dying approximately 1400 years after the Horus Heresy.

Given that the Adeptus Astartes were created from the gene-templates of the primarchs, they are going to share the same mortality.

Adrian

Supremearchmarshal
13-12-2007, 18:09
In fact, the Codex Imperialis from 2nd edition specifically states about the primarchs "Although long lived, they were not immortal", and describes the last of them finally dying approximately 1400 years after the Horus Heresy.

Given that the Adeptus Astartes were created from the gene-templates of the primarchs, they are going to share the same mortality.

Adrian

Ok, thanks for the info.
So case closed then - SM, barring the effects of Chaos, are not immortal.

Londinium
13-12-2007, 18:10
Various information from the Horus Heresy novels conflicts with that, making it appear that crusade era marines will not die due to old age. It's important to note that Codex Imperialis was published when the 40k universe was still very basic in it's framework, it's one of the first published items of 2nd ed and lots of it isn't very relevant, the concept of Primarchs as they are now, is somewhat different to the one thats portrayed within that.

It would suggest that the degradation brought upon the gene seed by the imperfect replication of Space Marines in the 40k universe as opposed to 30k, would result in their aging process, thus why Dante a relatively young marine by crusade standards, was the oldest marine. It'd also fit the whole decaying technology vibe 40k has. Those Crusade era marines lived a long time, Iacton Qruze was on terra during the unification wars and fought with the Luna Wolves right up to the Heresy, thats at least two hundred years there.

heretics bane
13-12-2007, 18:24
Is'nt old Fabi got some plan involving a giant womb thing filled with the next generation of CSM? or is that just fan-fluff?

heinrichvoncarstein
13-12-2007, 18:58
no he isnt! its a rumour, if anything little Aximand was the clone not Abbadon.

It clearly states in the book 13th black crusade that abaddon is the clone of horus

bigred
13-12-2007, 19:23
Except that Abaddon doesn't look like Horus, so there is a little problem there.

The 13th Black Crusade reference is probably just a mixup on the writers part from the much older fluff regarding the Black Legion going berzerk post heresy when they themselves attempted to clone Horus to be reunited with their beloved Warmaster. Unfortunately, the clone was stolen by other traitor legions, and the Black Legion mounted a raid to recover the clone and destroy it once and for all.

The other view is that any talk of Abaddon being Horus' clone is purely in a metaphorical sense. He leads the Warmaster's Legion and has reunited all the Traitor Legions after all, a feat not accomplished since Horus himself.

Kal Taron
13-12-2007, 20:10
And don't forget that he himself may just say so. I mean how many CSM alive today have seen the Warmaster close up and personal? And remember him clearly?
If he could claim to be a direct clone of Horus it would give Abaddon's position a huge boost. Guess he needs it after all those failed crusades.

Kandarin
13-12-2007, 21:20
In fact, the Codex Imperialis from 2nd edition specifically states about the primarchs "Although long lived, they were not immortal", and describes the last of them finally dying approximately 1400 years after the Horus Heresy.

Given that the Adeptus Astartes were created from the gene-templates of the primarchs, they are going to share the same mortality.

Adrian

More recent fluff has every single Primarch either dying in battle, becoming a Daemon, or disappearing under mysterious circumstances. Any mention of any Primarch dying of age or disease has vanished from established canon. I think it's safe to say that that article is out of date.

Mechanicus
13-12-2007, 21:33
Besides, whilst implying one died of old age, it's not explicit. Vulkan was that supposed Primarch who died/disappeared "after fourteen hundred years". Note that there's no date of reference for when it's after - seems perfectly possible to me that he disappeared or died around 900.M31 - approximately one thousand years after the founding of his Legion, and perhaps 1400 years after the Primarchs' creation. After all, I believe 'centuries' was the amount of time quoted between the creation of the Primarchs and the launch of the Great Crusade.

TheMartyr451
13-12-2007, 21:57
I'm betting that at some point, Valdor was retired from "Throne-side duty", and became a Lord of Terra.


I believe Chief Custode is a position amongst the High Lords of Terra, so he definatley would of been anyway.

Supremearchmarshal
13-12-2007, 23:08
or disappearing under mysterious circumstances.

IMO one of the worst cliches in 40k - if one person disappears and is rumoured to return for the final battle it sounds cool. If 10 people do so it just looks silly. Just kill them off already! :evilgrin:

dr.oetk3r
13-12-2007, 23:11
...And the Adeptes Custodes ain't talking.

Yeah, some of them could be the same as those that were wandering around enforcing loyalty oaths during the Heresy. Maybe even Constantin Valdor's still hanging out with the Emperor. Maybe.

I'm betting that at some point, Valdor was retired from "Throne-side duty", and became a Lord of Terra.

Can you imagine the double-think those guys (the living remnants who remember the Unification Wars, the Early Imperium, et cetera) must have to deal with?

"yeah, sure, we were fighting to bring the Light of Reason to the Human Galaxy, undiluted by religious fervor or magical thinking of any kind...

"...Except, well, things went haywire, and now, we spread the same Light of Reason, um... just using artificial religious tropes and mystic gibberish to keep everyone's attention on the Big Prize of A Human-Dominant Universe (TM)."

"...Sure, it's silly, and completely counter to what we actually intended, but it's what we do to keep people from succumbing to Warp-Entity-Induced Atavism...yeah, that's a big problem these last few millenia...we call it "daemonic possession" in the current marketing. A good dose of religion-induced fear keeps it at bay...well, except when it doesn't..."

"Hey, we'll knock of all the mumbo-jumbo once once we've won the War To Annhiliate Everything That Isn't Human And Therefore Must Be Antithetical To Humanity. Don't sweat it, THAT little tidbit of philosophy is still used without any new addtions to it..."

So true....

Man custodes are emo. Wearing black all of the time, get over it! You're not Hasidic.... or are you > . < ?

Nazguire
14-12-2007, 00:24
So true....

Man custodes are emo. Wearing black all of the time, get over it! You're not Hasidic.... or are you > . < ?


They wear black? The Adeptus Custodes?

I was positive they wore obnoxiously decorated gold armour with an obnoxiously tall red horse hair crest.

dr.oetk3r
14-12-2007, 00:29
They did, but when the Emperor was interned in the Golden throne, they exchaged their ornate armour for black robes. (citation needed)

Nazguire
14-12-2007, 00:33
They did, but when the Emperor was interned in the Golden throne, they exchaged their ornate armour for black robes. (citation needed)

Where did you read that? Considering how scarce information is on the Custodes and that all art for the Custodes is of them in pimped out armour, it's hard to believe.

DarkAzrael169
14-12-2007, 06:50
No, really he's right. They never leave the palace and they wear only black robes. But supposedly they are the best legion, so I bet they still are dangerous. Plus they probably have the coolest and most advanced stuff(Rhinos with anti-grav stuff) and stuff like that. Plus they are all really angry that they didn't save the Emperor(Even though he blindly teleported on to Horus's Battle Barge with a handful of Custodes). Don't let their emoness fool you...

gantrakk
14-12-2007, 07:45
Hummm if they never leave the palace then they can't have combat experience, (unless they engage in many wars with themselves to keep sharp) and no combat experience against aliens, so would probably be rather poor when compared to veterans of a lifetime of war such as all the others have.

Griffin
14-12-2007, 08:32
Isn't the Emperor's palace filled with demons in a constant battle with the Custodes ? I remember something like that, They wear the Big golden bling armor with red crests, and can aparently take a away a marine's gun like a grown up from a toddler.

Emperor>Custodes>Greyknights>Marines is the way I see it.

Messiah
14-12-2007, 09:07
Various information from the Horus Heresy novels conflicts with that, making it appear that crusade era marines will not die due to old age.


Oh, they believe they are immortal, since noone has died of old age yet, later, they do. Since me and my brother havent died, I may believe that our generation is immortal, and if we live past 100 years, even more so, but that doesnt mean we might not die at 101..

pookie
14-12-2007, 11:12
It clearly states in the book 13th black crusade that abaddon is the clone of horus

well thats typical GW - info that contradicts it self, if you take the HH books, even abaddon says that Aximand is like a 'cone' of Horus he never mentions himself being similar (just taht there is a lot of members of the sons of horus who have a uncanny look of horus about them, hence why Aximand is known as 'little Horus', it could be that time has distorted the truth.

Feor
14-12-2007, 12:42
Space Marines have a lifespan of around 300-500 years. (Except Blood Angels, Geneseed defects give them about 1000 years)

At the time of the Horus Heresy, space marines had only existed for around 200 years.

Of course they thought they were immortal, none of them were old enough to have died of old age yet.

The Chaos Marines are still alive because the EoT doesn't follow Reality's rules. For them it's only been a few hundred years since their defeat at Terra, plus with warp mutations and gifts from the dark gods they'll likely live longer than a regualr space marine anyway.

GreenDracoBob
14-12-2007, 16:47
But as others have said, has there ever been a case of a Space Marine dying of old age? I suppose you could say that the Marines had slowed down over the years and are easier to kill in combat, but a peaceful death seems something that wouldn't happen.

Witchfire
14-12-2007, 17:12
loyal marines still kicking around include-

o Bjorn Fellhand, space wolves venerab le dreadnaught and successor chapter master of russ

o Some of the dreadnaught lords of the iron hands, i think...

o The space wolves 13nth company, who remained loyal to the emperor adrift in the warp since the heresy

Theyre the only ones i can remember

Supremearchmarshal
14-12-2007, 17:14
Here's the quotes from Deathwing that state marines aren't immortal:

[Weasel-Fierce] "If we fail, so be it. What have we to live for? How many summers have we left before we die of old age or are encased in the cold, metal body of a Living Dreadnought?"
"I am old," he said softly, "Old and tired. I have seen more than two hundred summers. In a fewmore, I will be dead, anyway. <snip>"

Also,

"<snip> I have lived long - longer perhaps than any mortal should."

and for CSM:

"The mark of Chaos was upon them. They called on Horus and those powers that are better not named. And we knew them - they were renegades, survivors from the Age of Heresy who had pacted with Chaos in exchange for eternal life."

thomas2
14-12-2007, 20:12
Primarches might be immortal, for example the Lion is still alive, but he was in the middle of a warp storm or the like when he was wounded so that may affect matters. Also many of the Fallen are still alive and some have rejected chaos.

Tyron
14-12-2007, 20:21
So the Emperor would prefer his Custodians to out live his Primarchs? How nice :angel:

Eisen
14-12-2007, 20:23
Well, yeah, because you'll ALWAYS need a cleaning staff.

DapperAnarchist
14-12-2007, 23:37
Custodes (as described in RT) wear knee high boots, breeches, a black cloak, and a 2 foot tall face covering metal hat with plumey bits. They carry one kick-a$$ halberd/gun combo. And they patrol the entire planet - but not very publicly. Its a bit like the Secret Service - in theory they just hang around the president, but actually they go all over th place doing stuff. As for experience - the Conclave discussed this, and concluded that either they have hidden wars here and there, or that aliens and heretics are imported for training. As for daemons on Terra? please. its the single strongest source of human faith in the galaxy. thats like a snowflake of evil in a firestorm of fiery fiery faith.

Feor
15-12-2007, 02:37
Except that it has a portal to the warp in teh middle of the Palace. Occassionally a few little beasties are probably going to make it through, even with the Emperor's power keeping it shut.

Realistically, we don't know enough about the Custodes to judge if they're immortal. We know they were engineered beyond the levels of the Astartes, but not up to par with the Primarchs. It would make sense for the Emperor to want the same guardians for as long as possible, foster loyalty and all that. But we only know a few Custodes that were around pre-heresy, and we don't know for sure any of the Custodes who are around now.

FrankManic
15-12-2007, 04:48
"Hey, we'll knock of all the mumbo-jumbo once once we've won the War To Annhiliate Everything That Isn't Human And Therefore Must Be Antithetical To Humanity. Don't sweat it, THAT little tidbit of philosophy is still used without any new addtions to it..."

The most secret ordo of the inquisition is actually the never mentioned Ordo Venalicium. The Holy Marketing Department of Terra.

Captain Stern
15-12-2007, 14:57
We know they were engineered beyond the levels of the Astartes.

Where does it say that about the custodes?

Feor
15-12-2007, 22:12
THere's a few places, at least, in what I've read, where it talks abouthow the Custodes are stronger, faster, and generally better than a regular space marine. Not at home right now tocite pages, but have a look through the Battle of Propero section of Collected Visions for at least one referance to it.

Kandarin
15-12-2007, 22:37
Isn't the Emperor's palace filled with demons in a constant battle with the Custodes ? I remember something like that, They wear the Big golden bling armor with red crests, and can aparently take a away a marine's gun like a grown up from a toddler.

Emperor>Custodes>Greyknights>Marines is the way I see it.

That would indeed be very cool, but there's not enough fluff on the Custodes to know.

Londinium
15-12-2007, 23:02
That would indeed be very cool, but there's not enough fluff on the Custodes to know.

I think the Collected Visions book indicates that once the Custodes stemmed the original daemon assault, and when Malcador bit the dust and was replaced by the Emperor on the Golden Throne, the actual battling with the Daemons ended. As basically the Emperor is holding them back himself, like a giant plug (:rolleyes:) over the hole that is the Golden Throne webway gate.

Although the concept of the Custodes fighting daemons through the webway in a shadow war lasting close to 10,000 years is an attractive one :D

Dio´Ra
16-12-2007, 00:42
THere's a few places, at least, in what I've read, where it talks abouthow the Custodes are stronger, faster, and generally better than a regular space marine. Not at home right now tocite pages, but have a look through the Battle of Propero section of Collected Visions for at least one referance to it.

wasnt it mentioned in Horus Rising that the custodes were the first geneticly engineered humans....but we have enough immortal freaks(immortal as in will not die unless someone pulls the trigger immortal)....example the Sensei, alltough that fluff may be dead by now :(....anyways space marines were never immortal ever!......not even grey knights, not even the primarchs (those that wanderd off are dead face it! they left to die a peacefull death on some maiden world :p).....the only true human who was immortal was the emperor himself and maybe the custodes, as we dont have an answer of how they reproduce themselves if they arnt immortal.......

Aeolian
04-04-2008, 19:57
Who was Malcador?

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
04-04-2008, 20:33
Malcador the Stilligite- A close adviser to the Emperor during the Heresy, general man of mystery, and a powerful enough psyker to wtfpwn the daemons entering the Palace singlehandedly, while the Emperor was off wtfpwning bigger fish. Say, Horus. Pretty awesome dood. Guard named a tank after him, and he pushes the Emperor's wheelchair in Primiarchs.

downundercadet07
04-04-2008, 21:09
I doubt any of them are immortal besides the emperor. After all-- space marines were supposed to be the ultimate representatives of humanity, and a major biological fact about humans is that all of them eventually die of old age if nothing else gets them first. Aside from the thermodynamic problems of keeping something alive forever, it goes against the entire human experience: what makes humans so different in most fantasy literature: the idea that someday, not too far down the line, no matter how safe you play it, you're going to die. It's alternately called the gift and curse of humans, but it is such an intrinsic part of our experience as a species that I doubt the emperor would tamper with it, even for his exemplars.

LoneSniperSG
04-04-2008, 21:29
you mean Bjorn, and dep on how you look at it he is the oldest lotal marine around, he was a Blood claw when Russ took his strool that he didnt come back from.

but to answer the Op question, i would have thought that they all would have been killed by now, the Trators only survie this long because of the EoT, its only thought that marines are immortal, and the quote people get this from, even says its because they die before any of them can find out.

I don't think Bjorn was a mere Blood Claw. He held a place in Russ' retinue as the chapter Champion. Russ left him in charge when he left, Bjorn ended up in his hulking metal body 7-8 years after due to injuries from a Berzerker squad or some other Khornate filth.

I should probably point out that the OP doesn't seem to be accounting for the fact that time in the Eye of Terror is not the same as it is for the Imperium. Time is twisted, bent, shattered, blended and very well shaken within the Warp.


wasnt it mentioned in Horus Rising that the custodes were the first geneticly engineered humans....but we have enough immortal freaks(immortal as in will not die unless someone pulls the trigger immortal)....example the Sensei, alltough that fluff may be dead by now :(....anyways space marines were never immortal ever!......not even grey knights, not even the primarchs (those that wanderd off are dead face it! they left to die a peacefull death on some maiden world :p).....the only true human who was immortal was the emperor himself and maybe the custodes, as we dont have an answer of how they reproduce themselves if they arnt immortal.......

Leman Russ does not strike me as the type to die when fate says he should. He seems the type to tell fate which orfice to stick itself in, and which level of hell to go to.


Not at home right now tocite pages, but have a look through the Battle of Propero section of Collected Visions for at least one referance to it.

.. I don't know what you're talking about, but I think I want it.

Adra
04-04-2008, 22:39
Like so much of 40k its almost impossible to prove this one way or another. no marine has ever died from old age, so we are lead to belive, but just because thats true does not mean they cant.

and anyway, death in anything but battle would be a terrible dishonour for any marine, so maybe when they start on the road to death they just go off alone on an impossible quest...such as facing a wall of orks...

DantesInferno
04-04-2008, 22:47
Like so much of 40k its almost impossible to prove this one way or another. no marine has ever died from old age, so we are lead to belive, but just because thats true does not mean they cant.

Of course Marines have died of old age, we're just not explicitly told about it.

If they didn't die of old age, it would certainly make the fact that the Blood Angels are described as having exceptional longevity very bizarre indeed.

LoneSniperSG
04-04-2008, 23:49
Dante, you say that like they aren't already bizarre.

Col. Dash
05-04-2008, 20:35
You cant quote the Horus Heresy books as canon. They are already contradicting themselves. Just reading Legion and the Alpha Legion already knows about chaos while Horus hasnt even made it to Ullenor yet, which is still years before he even gets touched by it. Hell the AL is already spouting Emperor Saves stuff and the cult is still several fleets away and in its infancy if that far along. I would like to think that the original space marines were in fact immortal while later versions lost this particular trait but to each their own. In my view, alot of the current chapter masters are original marines from the the old legions that got split up from the codex thing.