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silence
14-12-2007, 19:55
Basically, why do the SM use the comparitively less well equipped Rhino instead of the IG Chimera which has more armament and is amphibious.

imperial_scholar
14-12-2007, 20:03
Because the Rhino is used for everything accept the land raider. Easier to fix when you have all the same parts laying around.

Logistics, Logistics, Logistics.

silence
14-12-2007, 20:07
true, but with the transport compartment on the chimera could they not also be adapted on a similar way to the Whirlwind and vindiactor if they had been used from the first as the rhino had?

Firaxin
14-12-2007, 20:27
Yes, but the chimera is considerably harder to fix than the rhino, its harder to transport around quickly, etc.

Note that rhinos can fix their immobilization on a 6+ if the crew doesn't fire any weapons. Chimeras can't say the same.

IG are more of a suppression force, they can afford being immobilized, laying down fire and waiting until the end of the battle to fix themselves. With space marines, they need to stay mobile, and there's so few of them, the incapacitation of one rhino means 1/10 of the entire company is out of action, or 1/100 of the entire chapter. If a chimera is immobilized, that's maybe 1/25 of the company out of action, or 1/500 of the regiment, and that's only 1 regiment out of the manymany regiments on the planet. But you'd be lucky to find more than a company of space marines on a planet (or extremely unfortunate).

And that's why having a simple, easy to fix transport is so useful.

silence
14-12-2007, 20:30
ahh, ok :)

FrankManic
15-12-2007, 04:28
I've rather wondered why the Rhino isn't an option for the Guard. Though I suppose, when you get down to it, the Rhino is more or less a pure APC. It gets troops from point A to point B, then gets the hell out of the way. The Chimera is more of an infantry fighting vehicle. It gets the troops to point B, then helps them advance while laying down a lot of fire from it's multilaser.

The Warmaster
15-12-2007, 05:30
There are a few problems with the Chimera that would make them hard to use (or just rather pointless) in Space Marine forces:


Compatibility: Marine Rhinos feature a number of onboard systems that can integrate with Space Marine power armour (it's been mentioned occasionally in background material). Put the same technology into a Chimera, and you'd have the same transport capacity due to the space it would take up (plus, the Marines would already take up quite a bit more room than regular Guardsmen).
Maintenance: Chimeras, as Firaxin said, are harder to repair than Rhinos. Marines tend to be on the battlefield for a lot less time than Guardsmen, and can't really afford many breakdowns.
STC: If I recall correctly, Chimeras aren't actually STC vehicles (?), and thus might not be compatible with a lot of Astartes equipment. I don't know this for certain, but I remember reading somewhere that at least one of the standard Guard vehicles (I know it was mentioned specifically, but I don't remember which one it was) isn't actually an STC design (I could be getting it mixed up with the Leman Russ, though).
Battlefield role: See FrankManic's comment.
Pimpin': The Marines gotta be blingin' it up in more flashy vehicles, not them rivet-riddled scrapheaps that the Imperial Guard use. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)


There's probably more that I could add, but I've slept terribly these last few days, and can't think too well.

- N.

leo_neil316
15-12-2007, 10:20
The Ch1MeRa is an stc. The hellhound isn't (being most likely 'designed' when some guardsmen were trapped in a room with lots of chimeras, fuel, welders and heavy flamers) nor is the leman russ (guess who thought it up?).

However chimeras were first recovered -post- herasy. About the time the 'imperial army' was scrambling around to replace all the landraiders the space marines pinched off with.

And they got the stc chimera ifv and the 'hey this might work' leman russ main battle tank in the end and never looked back.

I'm sure someday someone will get around to telling the marines that their rhinos are kinda pants (I mean, they have less armour than the ones with big guns? Whats up with that?) and they'll all switch to chimeras. I mean, it's not like they'll admit their vehicles are pants (unless it's a space wolf).

DapperAnarchist
15-12-2007, 10:53
In fluff the Rhino (or RH1N0 in STC) is usually described as being faster than a Chimera. However, this doesn't appear in the rules. which is a bit poo.

reds8n
15-12-2007, 12:16
There's also a bit of a size issue too I believe. In darl Apostle, one of the chaos marines drives a captured Chimera back to his own lines, but can only do so after ripping out the seats in the driver section as otherwise he couldn't fit. Now I suppose it would be possible to alter the schematics, but that would be tampering with the Holy STC and would therefore be forbidden.

Witchfire
15-12-2007, 12:19
reds8n hit the nail on the head with the holy STC issue

Eisen
15-12-2007, 13:24
He may have hit the nail, but he missed the Land Raider, or is tampering with the STC justified when you can cram more Terminators in? Or when you need a dedicated command vehicle? Or when you need an anti-tank vehicle... you get the idea. See also "Rhino" and "Razorback." Tampering with the STC happens, and happens frequently. Even the name indicates that this is the case - they are templates, to be adapted to local conditions, which means if you're on Planet Petrol, your Rhinos and Chimaeras can run on gasoline, while somewhere in the Imperium, there's the same basic vehicle, set to run on coal, and somewhere else, it runs on fairy dust and good feelings.

t-tauri
15-12-2007, 15:17
The argument there is that the STC already had the capacity for the variants built in. The variant options were rediscovered and retroactively approved by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

trigger
15-12-2007, 15:27
why?

rhino is
1: faster
2: has more access points , there for more versitile in a battle field role
3: they are compleatly air tight , where a chimera floats becoming amphibious the rhino simly drives on the bottom of the ocean,can be used in chemical war fare threats , and used where there is no atmosphere
4: its easyer to fix and maintain

hope these help

Eisen
15-12-2007, 15:29
Yet in the case of the Land Raider Crusader, we know that's simply not true - if the Land Raider has been in use since M31, why exactly would THIS be the case...


Origins

The Land Raider Crusader was originally designed by the Black Templars to provide vast amounts of anti-infantry fire before disgorging the Black Templars to mow down the survivors. It was designed during the Jerulas Crusade (645.M39) and maintains all of the robustness of the Land Raider.

So we see that at least the Land Raider STC has been tampered with, and this doesn't even get into all the new and funky variations that have been foisted on us with Apocalypse. Tampering happens, and saying that the potential was always there is a face-saving solution for the AdMech, kind of like a geologist saying that there was always a statue imbedded inside that block of rock, and it's still an unmodified block of rock, or a creationist saying that those fossils are strictly rocks and in no way bear a relation to any living thing.

Further mucking about on Lexicanum seems to indicate that the Land Raider wasn't even originally MEANT to carry Terminators, for that matter. That would be a pretty significant detail to rediscover suddenly in the STC - "Oh, by the way, it's also meant to carry armored dudes twice as tall as its normal passengers!" That example right there, matter of fact, kind of sets a precedent for modifying the Chimaera to take Space Marines. And we know it CAN take power-armored troops because it can be taken as a transport option for Inquisitorial troops, and Inquisitorial retinues can conceivably include Marine-sized servitors.

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that perhaps the reason that the standard Marine troop-hauler is the Rhino may be related to the entire 1000-per-Chapter, no-battle-fleet rules, designed as one of the few outbreaks of common sense in the Imperium and a good check on rampant Astartes power. And yes, I know that in BFG you can play Marine fleets. I'm talking about Nelsonian fleet sizes here. Marine fleets are much, much smaller.

LordXaras
15-12-2007, 15:48
So we see that at least the Land Raider STC has been tampered with, and this doesn't even get into all the new and funky variations that have been foisted on us with Apocalypse.
It took several centuries for the Mechanicus to approve of the Crusader, and by then the fact that several other chapters had adopted it would have made the transition easier.

It's quite obvious that the marines have a few boons with the Mechanicus, and this is probably because a lot of their equipment isn't STC. The Power Armour and Bolters, for example, are in constant development. This would probably lead to situations where the marines could argue for the verification of STC mods as well.


And yes, I know that in BFG you can play Marine fleets. I'm talking about Nelsonian fleet sizes here. Marine fleets are much, much smaller.And (only adding to your argument) not really meant for fleet-to-fleet warfare.

Eisen
15-12-2007, 15:57
So we're agreed, then, that saying "it would change the original blueprints" isn't why the Marines don't use a proper IFV?

EDIT:

D'oh! I just had a "Me R teh SMRT!" moment when I realized that Ogryns are potentially somewhere between Space Marines and Terminators in size - good size figures aren't ever really given for them - and you can herd up to five of them, a Commissar, and another attachment into a Chimaera. Which sounds like a joke, come to think of it. "Okay, so five Ogryns, a Commissar, and a Priest are in a broom closet..."

Edit #2 to correct idiot blue link turning the abbreviation for Space Marines into "Smart Missile System."

reds8n
15-12-2007, 16:36
No one disputes Termies etc could it in the back, but they couldn't fit into the drivers compartment could they ?


The changes made to rhinos/razorbacks and Land raiders you'll note are all carried out by marine chapters, in extreme circumstances. they then, as other posters have added, have had these changes retrospectively approved by the Ad. mech, and ordained, so to speak, as sanctioned by the machine God, as other wise they wouldn't work.

You've got to remember that everything marines use is bigger/stronger than normal human equipment, the interiors of chimera's would have to be totally ripped out and replaced with marine compatible equipment.

With rrespect to the reference to not originally carrying terminators that is both wrong and right. The original LR model was produced at a time when there were no such things as terminators in the game. then after they were introduced WD had an article about how to convert your standard model into a variant that could carry termies. Going offf of the IA articles this isn't really still in continuity at all, like Russ being human, the Souldrinkers being a White Scars assault unit etc etc.

imperial_scholar
15-12-2007, 16:54
The Ch1MeRa is an stc. The hellhound isn't (being most likely 'designed' when some guardsmen were trapped in a room with lots of chimeras, fuel, welders and heavy flamers) nor is the leman russ (guess who thought it up?).

NEW FLUFF!
Leman Russ no longer designed the Leman Russ. Leman Russ re-discovered the STC at the request of a representative of The Mechanium to launch a mission to recover the tank. I thanks..... the representative named it after him.

Note representative does have a name and position.. I just can't be bothered to look it up.

Refer. the Forge world books.

Eisen
15-12-2007, 17:19
No one disputes Termies etc could it in the back, but they couldn't fit into the drivers compartment could they ?

No, but then, Land Raiders aren't DRIVEN by Terminators, or indeed even power-armored Marines, either. They're driven (depending on when and who you ask) either by serfs or reservists.



The changes made to rhinos/razorbacks and Land raiders you'll note are all carried out by marine chapters, in extreme circumstances. they then, as other posters have added, have had these changes retrospectively approved by the Ad. mech, and ordained, so to speak, as sanctioned by the machine God, as other wise they wouldn't work.

... Right. And what does any of that have to do with the fact that change does happen, that STC designs are modified, and that said modifications are approved, even if the testing and approval process is about a million years?


You've got to remember that everything marines use is bigger/stronger than normal human equipment, the interiors of chimera's would have to be totally ripped out and replaced with marine compatible equipment.

Why? They can, as I mentioned, carry Ogryns, which are not only much heavier than normal humans, but both more clumsy and afraid of close confinement. You think they don't cause unusual equipment damage all by themselves?


With rrespect to the reference to not originally carrying terminators that is both wrong and right. The original LR model was produced at a time when there were no such things as terminators in the game. then after they were introduced WD had an article about how to convert your standard model into a variant that could carry termies. Going offf of the IA articles this isn't really still in continuity at all, like Russ being human, the Souldrinkers being a White Scars assault unit etc etc.

Wasn't referring to the original RT-era Land Raider. Was referring to this. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Raider_Spartan) Fairly sure that the original RT-era fluff didn't go into detail as to which variants of the Land Raider were used as breaching vehicles on Mars, especially if there were no Terminators to be included in lists, therefore no need to design a Terminator transport.

Vaktathi
15-12-2007, 19:04
No, but then, Land Raiders aren't DRIVEN by Terminators, or indeed even power-armored Marines, either. They're driven (depending on when and who you ask) either by serfs or reservists.

Codex: Space Marines, page 40. 4th Edition

Land Raider:
Crew: 3 Space Marines.


Page 15, Codex: Space Marines, 3rd Edition
Land Raider:
Crew: Space Marines.


Page 69, Codex Ultramarines, 2nd Edition
Land Raider:
Crew: One Space Marine driver, two Space Marine Gunners.





Why? They can, as I mentioned, carry Ogryns, which are not only much heavier than normal humans, but both more clumsy and afraid of close confinement. You think they don't cause unusual equipment damage all by themselves? While your point here is mostly valid, they also have a special rule making it hard for them to get into a Chimera ;) They also count as 2 models when embarked.

reds8n
15-12-2007, 19:17
That link being taken almost verbatim from WD119, when said conversion for the tank was first introduced, enabling you to transport your brand new terminator models introduced less than a year ago. So yes RT era stuff did include that level of detail. I bought the issue off of the stands.:D


With regards to the Gryns I was pointing out the detailed stuff- radios, lights, scanners etc are all operated by the Human crew as Ogryns would be too large and clumsy. A normal marine's head, as an example, would be too large to wear a human size com piece/headgear set, so that and all connected systems would have to be replaced, and then equipment tat would-- as mentionned by an astute earlier poster-- have to be compatible with Power armour and marine equipment.

Eisen
15-12-2007, 19:23
Codex: Space Marines, page 40. 4th Edition

Land Raider:
Crew: 3 Space Marines.


Page 15, Codex: Space Marines, 3rd Edition
Land Raider:
Crew: Space Marines.


Page 69, Codex Ultramarines, 2nd Edition
Land Raider:
Crew: One Space Marine driver, two Space Marine Gunners.

Says nothing at all about how they're dressed, and it's pretty obvious from the torso on the vehicle-extras sprue that they're not wearing normal power armor. Those, in turn, are the ones who are sticking out of the hatches... which are obviously the ones who are, you know, going to get shot at. I realize this one's a stretch, I admit, but at the same time, Inquisitorial Rhinos don't have special accommodations for non-SM crews... unless you're willing to admit to STC tampering... which in turn just says that intercompatibility is possible. :p





While your point here is mostly valid, they also have a special rule making it hard for them to get into a Chimera ;) They also count as 2 models when embarked.

Yes, because they're both clumsy and Terminator-sized! Okay, slight exaggeration, but 12 man-sized models fit in a Chimaera without work. Call a Space Marine a man and a half, so you're talking an 8-man squad in the same space, or, if you think Ogryns and power-armored Marines are the same size, a 6-man squad, which gives you a Razorback with firing ports.

And the special rule is because they don't like it in there, not because they can't fit. Hell, the same special rule probably applies to caves and dropships. :p

Vaktathi
15-12-2007, 19:30
Says nothing at all about how they're dressed, and it's pretty obvious from the torso on the vehicle-extras sprue that they're not wearing normal power armor. Those, in turn, are the ones who are sticking out of the hatches... which are obviously the ones who are, you know, going to get shot at. I realize this one's a stretch, I admit, but at the same time, Inquisitorial Rhinos don't have special accommodations for non-SM crews... unless you're willing to admit to STC tampering... which in turn just says that intercompatibility is possible. :p Oh I wasn't disagreeing with the various viewpoints on STC modifications and whatnot, just pointing out what the Codex's said as to what crewed Land Raiders. The crew still seem to wear power armor, just with a different backpack (at least looking at the Chaos vehicle pilot) and still have the huge shoulderpads and everything. Personally I don't see Space Marines ever using Chimeras, not because they couldn't find a way to modify them, but because they don't fit their style of warfare and they already have an IFV in the form of the Razorback.







Yes, because they're both clumsy and Terminator-sized! Okay, slight exaggeration, but 12 man-sized models fit in a Chimaera without work. Call a Space Marine a man and a half, so you're talking an 8-man squad in the same space, or, if you think Ogryns and power-armored Marines are the same size, a 6-man squad, which gives you a Razorback with firing ports. I wouldn't argue with that.


And the special rule is because they don't like it in there, not because they can't fit. Hell, the same special rule probably applies to caves and dropships. :p Yeah, although I really don't see why the rule was necessary given the lack of Ogryn's generally fielded and even greater lack of *Mechanized* Ogryns. The only problem I could really see with Marines trying to use a Chimera though is their height, the chimera doesn't have as much headroom and is pretty cramped even for IG. They could probably fit in, but I don't see why they'd want to.

Eisen
15-12-2007, 19:42
Yeah, although I really don't see why the rule was necessary given the lack of Ogryn's generally fielded and even greater lack of *Mechanized* Ogryns. The only problem I could really see with Marines trying to use a Chimera though is their height, the chimera doesn't have as much headroom and is pretty cramped even for IG. They could probably fit in, but I don't see why they'd want to.

Ha - back of a Bradley's pretty damn cramped no matter who you are. Still beats walking to work.

As for why they'd want to, I don't really have a good answer. I'm not arguing that they should adopt it, or would, I'm arguing that they can, and that no convincing arguments have been put forward against that. The only real advantage the Chimaera has in combat power is firing ports, and for a force that actually has armor, dismounting from their carrier's not such a big deal. I think, as I said before, that the reason that the Marines don't adopt the Chimaera, and never did, is, in fact, one of those checks-and-balances issues created both in-game to give the Guard an infantry-related advantage, and in-fluff to keep the Marines in check slightly. After all, assuming two equal-sized mechanized forces in default transports, the Guard has an edge up to the dismount point.

Geddonight
15-12-2007, 21:28
he crew still seem to wear power armor, just with a different backpack (at least looking at the Chaos vehicle pilot) and still have the huge shoulderpads and everything.

Actually, I would contend that, referencing the Imperial Armour books from Forge World, the guy sticking out of the primary turret isn't a vehicle crew member, but actually one of the transported squad, hence the paldrons et al.

However, the versatility of the Rhino, and the multiple access hatches gives space marines more options for tactical deployment... 3 hatches lets more marines get out quickly without getting gunned down (think WWII landing craft for chimeras)

I don't buy for a second that imperial microbeads and vox casters cannot be configured to work with space marine communication systems. I contend that any technology/equipment marines stuff into their rhino can be just as easily stuffed into a chimera. And seats can be changed :rolleyes:

I wonder if part of it isn't the armor distribution... the Rhino has more uniform armor, meaning it can pierce enemy lines and take broadsides equally well (or badly, as these metal coffins prove on the battlefield). Chimeras are more front-loaded, weaker on the sides... meant to act in formation to protect flanks, whereas rhinos can operate alone much more reliably.

The discussion about everything being built around the rhino is an okay argument, but it really wouldn't take tooo much more to do the same thing with the chimera IVF... the real question is, what would the benefit be? Why should the chapters do a massive overhaul to their entire mechanized force? If there's no clear advantage, then it's not worth the time & expense.

Cheers!

Vaktathi
15-12-2007, 21:43
Actually, I would contend that, referencing the Imperial Armour books from Forge World, the guy sticking out of the primary turret isn't a vehicle crew member, but actually one of the transported squad, hence the paldrons et al.


actually I was just going off of a Predator and a Land Raider I've got sitting here, although there are multiple bodies I guess, so you really can't see what one of them is actually wearing since he's submerged in the cupola. The other body though has shoulderpads, etc... and can man the stormbolter.

Captain Gawain
16-12-2007, 00:20
actually I was just going off of a Predator and a Land Raider I've got sitting here, although there are multiple bodies I guess, so you really can't see what one of them is actually wearing since he's submerged in the cupola. The other body though has shoulderpads, etc... and can man the stormbolter.

IIRC, the shoulder pads on the land raider gunner have mechanicum symbology on them? Perhaps vehicles are crewed by junior members of the chapters Techmarines?

I always assumed that for the Land Raider. It's a pretty important vehicle, and I just can't see the techmarines allowing just anyone to drive their baby.

Eisen
16-12-2007, 00:21
Same sprue for all of the Marine treads, so if that's the case, junior techpriests also drive Rhinos.

imperial_scholar
16-12-2007, 02:36
IIRC, the shoulder pads on the land raider gunner have mechanicum symbology on them? Perhaps vehicles are crewed by junior members of the chapters Techmarines?

I always assumed that for the Land Raider. It's a pretty important vehicle, and I just can't see the techmarines allowing just anyone to drive their baby.

Read the Forge World Volume 2. Space Marine Tanks are Driven by specially trained Space Marines which come from the 10 man squads (the exception are rhinos were everyone learns). So.. to have a 'squadron of armour' (3 Land Raiders) you'd be breaking up a squad of 10 (or 9) into 3 vehicles.

The shoulder pads maybe represents an Apprentice Techmarine? Maybe a superstition?

Burnthem
16-12-2007, 15:26
The Rhino is an APC - An Armoured Personnel Carrier, its a battlefield taxi, designed to get its cargo of rock-hard Marines to where they need to be, whilst keeping them safe. The Marines themselves then do the actual fighting.

The Chimera is an IFV - An Infantry Fighting Vehicle, its designed to both transport the troops to the battle, deliver the troops into the assualt and give fire support throughout the firefight, working in concert with the infantry it carries.

Its very important to differentiate between an IFV and an APC, in-game they are both used the same, however in the fluff (and in RL) the roles they each fulfill couldn't be further apart.

That is the difference between them, the Guard need all the guns they can get hold of, whereas the Marines need a fast protected transport to get the Marines themselves to where they need to be, as it's the Marines, not their vehicles, that do the damage to the enemy.

MrBigMr
17-12-2007, 11:41
If one wants marines with chimeras, take an armored company with Grey Knight allies. Nothing like 6 terminators in a chimera. Just take a chimeras as Fast Attack (like Heavy Choice land raider in the marine list) and a squad of GK terminators. Perfectly legal, even stated in the AC rules that a chimera can transport 12 models, ogryns and terminators taking up 2 spaces. Then model a GK in the hatche.

MorningLightMountain
17-12-2007, 15:21
Chimera is a perfectly legel transport option in the Daemonhunter codex. Power Armour or Terminator Armour Grey Knights can use them. Isn't there even a Grey Knight Chimera conversion on the UKGW website?