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Lauren_Star
14-12-2007, 21:14
What do you find the best units are for dealing with Empire.
The Empire armies i play against are the standard Jack Of All Trades types with plenty of magic, shooting, war machines and lots of bodies in CC.

What units are best in the O&G for dealing with the various aspects of the Empire in your opinion and why them over other choices?

Makarion
14-12-2007, 21:50
Goblin bolt throwers are a solid choice, as well as something like two units of night goblins with fanatics (of course). The latter is obvious, but that doesn't mean it won't work. Some wolf riders (or spiders if you wish) to deny your enemy marching and a block that can actually fight, and you're halfway there. The other half is rolling well for animosity.

PS. Don't leave home without Sneaky Stealing. Few things in the O&G magic item list annoy me as much (and I play Empire), and it seems very much worth it's points.

Heretic Burner
14-12-2007, 22:35
Empire are a far stronger army so the best thing to start off with is to understand that O&G are indeed the underdog.

To begin with you're likely to want to make an agreement beforehand with your opponent that huntsmen aren't allowed. Like any skirmishing scouting unit they're absolutely broken against O&G and probably won't lead to very many fun games. Unless you're in a truly competitive environment you should probably be able to work out a deal.

Next never try to out-warmaching Empire. Simply don't. Empire have considerably more powerful tools at their disposal and absolutely love getting into shooting matches against virtually any opponent. They'll win, and they'll win everytime. Realize that you'll have to take the fight to them (one of the many reasons why huntsmen are so devastating) and that anything else is simply not an option.

As an O&G player you're weaker in the movement phase, the magic phase, the shooting phase, and if you aren't careful the close combat phase. You're in a lot of trouble if you don't anticipate detachments and Empire's fantastic knights. You certainly don't have many tools to deal with this problem, Empire tend to be every bit as numerous as greenskins, so you'll need to pick your fights. Don't charge up the field and just expect to win with one on one unit encounters - Empire players can and will flee.

Do encourage your opponent to take handgunners. As an O&G player it goes without saying you want immense units. Against most Empire players you'll want to expand from the usual ~25 man orc units and consider ~30. Any shots against your night goblins should be a blessing. As always, never take common goblins (goes without saying) or savage orcs. As usual xbows are much more of a problem, though taking the above advice should solve some of the problem.

Magic? As always don't take it yourself - O&G are unquestionably the worst in the game in this department. Instead use typical anti magic response (banner + caddy), it will be enough.

Remaining heroes are all black orcs of course. A banner carrier is a very good option in this match and will mean you don't have to take dreadful big 'uns.

No chariots of course, free points for Empire. Fast cavalry depends on your opponent, however most cases they're free VPs. Never take wolf riders, always spider riders in this case.

Depending on terrain squig hoppers are an option. Very hit and miss, but then again the entire O&G army is.

However, the absolutely best advice I can give you is to load up on squig herds. They are undoubtedly the very best unit to take against Empire. No question whatsoever. Cheap enough against gunlines and very good even against detachements with proper squig placement. Slow, but they'll get to where they're going and that certainly isn't something most O&G units can say due to panic.

In many games using these two armies opposing I've found O&G tend to need an approximate 10% points boost. Keep in mind I've been playing both for years so someone with less experience with the greenskins might need even more of a handicap. Granted I don't expect most unfamiliar Empire opponents to agree to this, however if you can swing it you will certainly have a better game.

Urgat
14-12-2007, 23:48
I'm not very familiar with laying against empire, but yeah, that's a problematic army to deal with. My only really worthy opinion is that, more than against any other armies, you need very large units. I'm not too convinced about artillery either, any canon can scrap it to death in a couple turn, and there's nothing better than a canon for that, easy to use, easy to guess range, and can kill anything. Spear chukka will miss, doom divers and rock lobbers will scatter away, but the canon will strike home right away.
I'm rather partial to light cav though. Sure, they die fast. But they're core, you can load up your army with them. 5 units of wolves in 2000 points ain't so difficult to get, and half should get there. If not, it means the rest took not hit. Charriots are, indeed, no good. Fanatics should be rather good, and, for a change, lots of gobs with bows. Bar a couple units, you'll face little saves and T3 against shooting, so they aren't so bad a choice.
Wells, that's about all that comes to mind.

Danny76
15-12-2007, 00:11
Big units to absorb the shooting are a must.
A few fanatics in there are great assuming you can get your NG's there.

A unit or two of Black Orcs comes in handy against Empires heavier hitters..

Storak
15-12-2007, 02:30
the empire has better warmachines.

much better heavy cav. much better shooting and better magic.

swordmen are pretty close to the pride of the orcish army, the common orc with shield. if we factor in special rules (detachments vs. animosity) and the point cost for losing orcs via a black orc big boss, the orcs are most likely worse. (especially against empire shooting)

so we are left with core fast cav (one round of shooting will decimate the unit and break it) and some gimmicks.

good luck.

------------------

but to answer your question: you should have more units. fanatics are ok, to keep away their knights. if you can agree with you opponent, that headbutt will stop steamtank grind attacks, the giants will be rather good against it.

many empire players do still not fully abuse the animosity rules against you, by moving small detachments ahead. be thankful for it!

Chiungalla
15-12-2007, 06:15
Go magic heavy.
Take 6 to 10 levels of magic, that will couse him much trouble.
Take the horn or urgok, the itty ring, and the pipes of doom.

Maybe give a goblin hero a chariot and the one hit wunda, and use him outside of the shooting arc of empire cannons. Maybe to deal some damage against the steam tank or to kill some knights.

Night goblins with nets and fanatics are very good.

Spear chuckas are great for there price, so take 2-4.

A unit of savage orc boar boys without upgrades will work fine too, since they don't panic, and one getting through is enough to have a fair chance against any shooting unit he has.

Don't take a giant. Cannons will kill him to fast.
Use 3-4 trolls and a doom diver instead.

Braad
15-12-2007, 06:22
The **** I read here, strikes me hard...
Orcs Underdog? Come on...
Orc magic the worst in game? I'ts one of the few armies that can have it's infantry in CC in turn 1 (trust me, I did, with a bit of luck of course :p) if you combine the right stuff including a bit of magic.

Take 2 spearchukka's, make sure you have at least a bit of magic defense and take large units (as said, 25 per unit at least). That should get you started.

Orc cavalry can win against empire cavalry. Knights are quite powerfull, but still have just T3. Take savage cavalry, make sure you get the charge with the WAAAGH banner, and run them down.

Make sure your important units stay out of harms way (think cannons and handgunners), and let the big blocks absorb the firepower.

Could be an idea to deploy like this: Orc Goblin Orc Goblin Orc Goblin, to make sure that not everything starts running if a unit flees due to shooting.

Keep your general in the middle of it.

---EDIT---

After reading the post that was posted while I was typing, a little comment:
Put the goblin boss with the one hit wunda on a wolf instead (to hunt anything small and annoying (e.g. wizards, cannon crew) and save the chariot for an orc big boss (maybe black orc or savage) and give him the pigstikka. Just charge any unit you like head on, and take them down. If you do this on a savage boss, he has this when charging a 3 rank unit: D6+1 impact, 3 Attacks + 3 for spear + 1 for frenzy, 1 attack from the other crew and 2 from boars + 2 for frenzy. up to 19, that is... your enemy is gonna need those 3 ranks, I assure you...
If used correctly, this one, even with a normal big boss which I always use, is a unit killer.
I actually once won a 1500 point game just using the boss in chariot, a giant and 5 wolf riders. The rest of my army was not in time to enjoy the carnage (against DE).

Urgat
15-12-2007, 07:40
Maybe give a goblin hero a chariot and the one hit wunda, and use him outside of the shooting arc of empire cannons.

And how the hell do you do that (unless you're one of the ahppy few who doesn't play empire players who always lace a hill or two in their deployment zone, that is)?

Dendo Star
15-12-2007, 09:19
I am an Empire player. I do so also love me some Orcs and Goblins! What a wonderful, wonderful army! Anyway, some things to take would be:

Fanatics. Loads and Loads of Fanatics.

Goblin Fast Cav is exceptional against anyone, and the Empire has all those war machines and detachments just hanging around waiting to be picked off...

O&G War Machines are very good against us T3 'ummies. Goblin Doom Divers can make even our Knights cry...

O&G Magic can be truly devastating, I run a high a hefty amount of Magic Defense in my Empire army and Greenskin Magic still scares the pants off me.

Sambojin
15-12-2007, 10:01
From an O+G players perspective I'd have to say:

Firstly: Fast Cav, 5-6 units of it. Maybe more. Just to pick off detachments and warmachines. And their fast cav (which still isn't too bad).

Secondly: Night gobbos. With nets and fanatics. Makes a mess of knight based armies (sorta) and are cheap if they go gun heavy. Big units really don't panic much.

Thirdly: Warmachines. 4 chukkas just to annoy the knights. If they want to spend time shooting them with cannons then good on them. 35pts a piece isn't all that much to lose. Don't try and out-do them in warmachines, just enough to make some heavy units lose a few models. Lobbers can excell or do nothing. Bit of a random call. Either way, lobbers tend to be cannon ball magnets.

Fourthly: Magic defense. 1 scroll caddy and morks banner helps alot vs some of the most versatile magic there is, as well as alot of very helpful prayers. Not many empire armies won't include at least a priest and a mage.

Thats it. Take this and then anything else you desire (you should have a fair few points to spare). Squig herds should also do well. I don't have squig herds yet, but I'm seriously thinking that they'll be my next project. Putty, gobbo shields and BfSP gobbos should make up a five herd unit nice and easy..............

Tonedogbf110
17-12-2007, 10:48
I played an empire army recently, and although I lost I gave em a good run for their money.

the empire cannons and volley gun caused a few issues, but for some reason mostly my wolf riders and night goblins were targetted. its funny how having 6 fanatics in your army can cause real fear, got to respect that.

at least they left my 2 units of 25 orcs alone, which was unlucky for him as one of them routed 5 units. my black orcs also managed to take out his general even if it was too late to make a real impact.

I lost due to my lack of war machines and losing my light cav and great shaman too early. plus a dodgy moment with fanatics ploughing back through my night goblins. (which prompted a good laugh from all watching) the fanatics did little, and caused a major blockhole so I was having difficulty moving. had it not been for the empire artillery I may have won the day.

Storak
17-12-2007, 20:04
had it not been for the empire artillery I may have won the day.

nice one :)

warlord hack'a
17-12-2007, 21:23
well well well, look who we find here again claiming O&G are broken, he can't win one thread so he hops to the next...

Now on to how to fight empire with O&G. Empire have three major good things:
1) knights
2) detachments
3) artillery

knights are not a problem versus O&G, you have got a lot of units that either ignore or seriously lower armour saves, such as trolls, all your artillery and fanatics.

detachments hurt, when they can get a flank charge at your unit that charged. Fortunately you will most likely have more units than he has, or at least more deployment choices (as detachments deploy at the same time as their parent unit) so you can deploy smart and not face his entire streched out line. Most people when facing a big parent and two detachments see the big trap and do not know how to deal with it. The answer is very simple however: instead of seeing one big unit flanked by 2 smaller ones I see 2 small easy to slaughter units with a big block that usually needs avoiding in the middle. So to fight attachments use one of the four following options:
1) charge a detachment with something fast and hard enough to take them out, such as trolls, a chariot, orc boar boyz or some fast cav with a character in it.
2) charge a detachment with one of your big fighting blocks while blocking his big block with some of your fast cav or a disposable unit
3) charge the parent unit and block both detachments with your own units (simply walk in their way so they can not counter charge)
4) charge the parent and make sure that when he countercharges he will either trigger or pass through some fanatics, you only need 7 good fanatic hits to neutralize (= bring down to US 4 or less) a 10 man strong detachment unit (and in the meantime you also have a good chance of panicking them off the board).

Now artillery is good, but expensive.. For one great cannon plus five points you get 3 spear chukka's. Simply do not automatically agree with a hill in a deployment zone, that's a setup you see a lot but why? Also, he will want to take out your fast cav as they can hurt his machines, he will want to shoot your chariots because they are an easy target and can hurt detachments, he will want to shoot your boar boyz because they hurt etc. In short, he will have a lot to shoot at. Some spiderriders really can make an artillery hill nervous as they can zip through and hide in terrain almost as well as a woodelf, so take some of those and let him think about either shooting at them or getting charge dby them..

O&G versus empire always in an interesting match-up but O&G are in now way without chance, especially if you manage to outdeploy him (simply by having a few more deployment choices) and center your force on one point in his stretched out thin detachement filled line.

Heretic Burner
18-12-2007, 00:34
well well well, look who we find here again claiming O&G are broken, he can't win one thread so he hops to the next...

Win a thread? :wtf:

Disturbing. Simply disturbing. :eyebrows:

Obvious troll aside, chukkas are an interesting option however they do take away from the ability to take squig herds. Quite honestly although excellent value for their points chukkas are simply not going to win the day against Empire. The shots bounce off the heavy targets such as Stanks, while inflicting minimal damage against knight units as they are fielded without ranks. Equally ineffective against most Empire missile units. Yes they can be used against ranked units fairly well, however sacrificing precious special slots to take out spearmen is certainly not a very good option.

Empire, while nowhere near as mobile as elf armies are still capable of being plenty quick enough to neutralize O&G artillery and have the best counter battery units in the game. Chukkas are simply not a very good choice the majority of games and are easily ignored by most Empire players.

Lobbas are a much better option. Effective against ranked units, as chukkas, they are also capable of cracking open Empire hard units as well. Obviously in the hands of more experienced players lobbas are going to be more effective, however expect them to be a primary target and ensure proper placement and protection.

Detachment heavy forces are big trouble. As Storak pointed out, due to animosity, an experienced Empire player will undoubtedly have an overwhelming advantage if he is proficient with detachment unit placement. The 3X3 formation is devastating - turning 1/3 rolls on the animosity table into absolute catastrophes. Clearly black orcs aren't only just an option, they're mandatory.

To be honest, with so many units completely ineffective against Empire making an O&G is a breeze. The specials are a given, lobbas and squig herds/hoppers are pretty much the only units an Empire player doesn't want to see. Rares are even more easy to predict, giants and pump wagons are obviously out leaving difficult to use trolls and the doom diver as options. If lobbas are taken as special choices the doom diver will be a redundant option. OTOH, if lobbas are spared for squigs then the diver is certainly something to think about. However, I would certainly suggest the lobba being far more effective in the majority than doom divers and should be the first choice for war machines.

However the best rare options are clearly DOW. DOW light cavalry may very well be the best in the game - an obvious choice compared to the far less effective O&G light cav options. A cannon or two is always an option and very effective against many troublesome Empire units (particularly with Stanks so common). Other DOW are likely less effective in standard sized games.

It is near impossible to make a O&G list capable of accounting for every Empire possibility - Empire have by far the most flexible list in the game.

Braad
18-12-2007, 05:52
DOW light cavalry?

If we go that direction, fight fire with fire: DOW cannons! Leadbelchers! Blast the crap out of those humie bastards!

warlord hack'a
18-12-2007, 08:48
win, yes win, win an argument, you lost that argument,. could not handle it so went with your arguments to another post and pretended they are still valid, which they never were. Anyway, on to this thread, animosity versus detachments should not be a problem, the key to beating parents and detachments is make sure that you do not fall for their flank-countercharge trap, full stop. If you fail animosity and stumble forward then just move up the rest of your line to keep a closed front. In this way he has only the option of charging you full frontal and only very few empire infantry units are good enough to beat orcs in head to head fights. And where you have three fully ranked up units next to each other the empire player has one big and two small units facing your lines. Not a good prospect for him..

Indeed rock lobbers can be very effective, if you manage not to scatter or misfire. Against knights the doom diver is better however, so think of what you want to use the warmachines for and then choose the one most suited for the job.

And just remember one of the most important warhammer rules: deployment wins you half the game. So make sure you have a few more deployment choices than your opponent!

Heretic Burner
19-12-2007, 01:05
Arguing? I've already told you to take your bizarre personal rants against me to private messages. You didn't. There wasn't anything significant added since my last post, certainly nothing worth responding to, so no further posts were made. I'm sorry if you were waiting with baited breath for another but, well, people simply have other things to do.

I do hope you are here for the right reasons such as becoming informed, conversation with others across the globe or, at the very least, simply enjoyment. You will find very few posters are here to "win" or "lose", much less argue. I have a certain pity for the odd notion there is some kind of "competition" - the underlying rage is, as I put it in the last post, disturbing. I strongly suggest (besides once again pointing you towards that private message button) to take some time away from the boards and consider why you are even here. Nobody is competiting against you. Nobody is out to get you. However if it makes you feel better, congrats on your "win"....I guess...I'm sure it was well deserved against your phantom opponent. :angel:


DOW light cavalry?

Absolutely DOW light cavalry! Now I know there isn't anything flashy about them, rather standard stats - however that is exactly why you want them. They fulfill the tasks that you want light cavalry to perform completely stable and dependable. Vastly superior to O&G options and well worth adding to virtually any army if the points/slots are available.



If we go that direction, fight fire with fire: DOW cannons! Leadbelchers! Blast the crap out of those humie bastards!

I certainly wouldn't. For the most part successful Empire gunlines tend to have extremely stable leadership support. Certainly the limited rare slots of O&G are not going to be able to compete with Empire in the shooting department. Empire simply have too many valid options, superior cannons, and will more than likely be eager to trade all game as it plays entirely into their hands.

With limited slots your best use of DOW will be as support units. Thus your very effective fast cavalry option or the necessary DOW cannons against tough Empire units the Greenskins have few options against. More importantly, they are very much your only option against many Empire units that can exploit animosity to the fullest. Certainly DOW are a far more useful option than say trolls or a giant (aka, jumbo sized cannon fodder).

Braad
19-12-2007, 05:01
win, yes win, win an argument, you lost that argument,. could not handle it so went with your arguments to another post and pretended they are still valid, which they never were.


Arguing? I've already told you to take your bizarre personal rants against me to private messages. You didn't.

Animosity?

...

Anyway, about the DOW light cav. I'm not sure. It will cost you a rare choice for average stats, while you can pick core wolf riders for the same thing. And then you have your rare choice open for something else.
A good point about them, is the lack of animosity and fear elves though, so indeed they have some uses.

About the cannons, I was not talking about competing with them, just giving them a taste of their own stuff. What an empire gunline usually lacks is big blocks of fighters, and that is what the orcs do have! Combine that with a light cannon to take out that unit of knights or the silly wizard at the back, and there you go.

Side effect is opponent psychology. Very few will expect that cannon suddenly appearing when they know they will face orcs.
Up to now, my few experiences with a cannon have been very good, not for the damage they do, but by doing what a sole cannon (not a gunline) is supposed to do. Controlling movement by making your opponent try to avoid the line of fire with his expensive units.

Other then that, I always prefer the original orc rares. Yes, indeed trolls and giants, but also pump wagons and especially doom divers. Okay, a giant against a gunline might not be the best solution, but I don't mind fielding trolls against empire, with their regeneration.

Grinloc
19-12-2007, 07:30
win, yes win, win an argument, you lost that argument,. could not handle it so went with your arguments to another post and pretended they are still valid, which they never were.

Oh dear...
Now that was totally uncalled for and really bizarre to boot.
For a start i'd get rid of the idea that someone is out to "drop a load" on your beloved greenskins. That's so totally off the mark...:eyebrows:. Way to take it personal...for whatever reason.
Attempting to jump on someone's throat, since his opinion somehow offends you....that's nothing short of disturbing.


The basic problem when facing empire is the versatile style of the army. You almost never know what you gonna be up against.
Empire practically forces you to load up on spear chukkas. Cause if you don't use them and 1-2 steam tanks enter the arena you are done for. O&G's simply don't have the units to withstand a charge from one of those.

Spear chukkas aren't really a bad choice at all, considering their cheap price. They hit a steam tank on 3+ or 4+ and wound it on 4+.

But whatever you do...don't take boar boyz. They are laughable for their idiotic points cost. Even empire xbowmen make a mess of those guys. I'm not talking about panic checks but rather about getting your "heavy" (lol) cavalry wiped out.
Since they are too weak to win combat after a frontal charge against an infantry unit you would need to prepare a flank charge with them. But that would result in moving the boar boyz out of the "screen", leaving them there to suffer plenty of pain from at least one whole empire shooting phase.

Don't take black orcs either. They are overprized and don't provide a zone of stability any longer. They'd be a prime VP target for stanks, hellfire blasters, etc.
You need all the special slots you can get for squigherds/-hoppas and artillery.

Another thing an O&G's player needs to watch out for are those flagelants. Don't ever let those guys get the charge opportunity. With their (overpowered imo) sacrifice option they make a total mess of most opposing units.

When it comes to heroes...black orc bosses and a scroll caddy. You gonna need every bit of "reliability" you can get to have a good chance of winning the battle. Losing a whole turn due to a squabble when facing a gunline doesn't sound healthy at all...

Grinloc
19-12-2007, 08:54
Another thing. There's a useful and quite sick option to fight a steam tank:
Use a black orc warboss with the "battle axe of the last waaagh" and let him join a unit of 30 boyz. It gives him the unit's rank bonus (+3) as a bonus on attacks and strength. In my last few battles with O&G's against empire my opponent stayed away with his steam tanks for this very reason. 7 attacks (auto-hits) with STR8 can kill a steam tank in two combat rounds.

Might wanna try that...at least my chaos opponent got rather pale in the face when my general vaporized his chosen chaos knights of khorne with this lil helper :).

warlord hack'a
19-12-2007, 11:33
sorry if my reaction offended people, I was just pointing out that there is a thread still going which so far refutes the fact that the O&G book is broken, those who claim it is stopped posting in that thread but instead of thinking that their views might be a bit off simply went to another thread and posted the exact same wild claims.

Since people visit this forum to get informed by their fellow players it might be fair that they are informed wisely and as much as possible based on facts. So my 'fight' is not personal at all, it's against anybody making wild claims without backing them up as that misinformes people and thus undermines the basis of this forum.

But apparently my view of how this forum should work was wrong and people can just rant on even when their views do not remain standing in the face of reason. All they have to do is make it a personal fight, feel personally offended, make those advocating reason and moderation look bad and then they can continue as before..

warlord hack'a
19-12-2007, 11:38
and grinloc, good point about the battleaxe of the last waaagh, will surely surprise your opponent the first time he runs into it! gobbo boss on wolf with wollopas one hit wunda might also be a good way to slow a STank down, will not kill it but if enough damage is done then the empire is in danger of blowing up his precious.

Crazy Harborc
19-12-2007, 20:13
Battle Ax of the Last Waaaagh...:evilgrin: I will be remembering THAT one. I did read about it when the new armybook came out....Had a senior moment and forgot about it!!

As far as more tips to add......What I would add is already been....by others.

IF you can afford to spend the $$$$$ AND have the time to assemble and paint LOADS of minies.......Have extra units to vary your rosters. It can be fun and help prevent boredom....Oh my the same roster again;)

Heretic Burner
19-12-2007, 22:34
sorry if my reaction offended people, I was just pointing out that there is a thread still going which so far refutes the fact that the O&G book is broken, those who claim it is stopped posting in that thread but instead of thinking that their views might be a bit off simply went to another thread and posted the exact same wild claims.

I've certainly not come across this unknown thread that has somehow "refuted" the fact O&G are broken. I'm quite certain you'll get a better response in this mysterious thread if you posted in that thread instead of hijacking this one.



Since people visit this forum to get informed by their fellow players it might be fair that they are informed wisely and as much as possible based on facts. So my 'fight' is not personal at all, it's against anybody making wild claims without backing them up as that misinformes people and thus undermines the basis of this forum.

Indeed, there are many threads out there that inform our fellow players wisely using solid data, strong statistical evidence, and provokes thoughtful discussion from multiple points of view. This thread, however, is for discussing O&G vs Empire. I believe the OP is capable of locating those other threads the search function (though I do admit I haven't been able to locate this thread that somehow refutes the idea that O&G are broken).



But apparently my view of how this forum should work was wrong and people can just rant on even when their views do not remain standing in the face of reason. All they have to do is make it a personal fight, feel personally offended, make those advocating reason and moderation look bad and then they can continue as before..

We're talking about GW products here - reason went out the window a long, long time ago. ;)

As for personal fights, that wonderful button known as the private message, mentioned I believe sometime or the other, is ideal!

Dwarf Runelord 45
19-12-2007, 23:51
Squigs and Fanatics

sephiroth87
20-12-2007, 02:29
I've certainly not come across this unknown thread that has somehow "refuted" the fact O&G are broken. I'm quite certain you'll get a better response in this mysterious thread if you posted in that thread instead of hijacking this one.



Indeed, there are many threads out there that inform our fellow players wisely using solid data, strong statistical evidence, and provokes thoughtful discussion from multiple points of view. This thread, however, is for discussing O&G vs Empire. I believe the OP is capable of locating those other threads the search function (though I do admit I haven't been able to locate this thread that somehow refutes the idea that O&G are broken).



We're talking about GW products here - reason went out the window a long, long time ago. ;)

As for personal fights, that wonderful button known as the private message, mentioned I believe sometime or the other, is ideal!

I did see a thread where you convinced almost no one but went on a multiple page polemic about how Orcs and Goblins were broken using selective memory, faulty logic, and a lot of jumping to conclusions.

For what it's worth, I quite enjoy having these discussions where everyone can see them. It makes it that much funnier when you start on a rant again, then act wounded and martyred when people go after you. Yes, we know you're just trying to help all those potential orc and goblin players to not start a bad army. Here are three nails for you...

warlord hack'a
20-12-2007, 07:38
IF you can afford to spend the $$$$$ AND have the time to assemble and paint LOADS of minies.......Have extra units to vary your rosters. It can be fun and help prevent boredom....Oh my the same roster again;)

I since a few years use the opposite reasoning: play with the same list against different opponents to see how this list fares in the long run and just make minor changes to the list. I long ago got fed up with tuning my list to a specific enemy since especially in 5th edition this could be incredibly abused by the way you kitted out your characters. So now I take a 'face all enemies' list and see how they do. Fortunately my friends do the same otherwise it would be a miserable life for me..

But indeed it might be time to change to a new list, I've played the same style of list for 5 years now, maybe I should try magic heavy..

Braad
20-12-2007, 10:01
@ certain posters: We can also just be nice to each other...

About black orcs, which someone said its best not to use...
I rarely leave home without them. In combination with the Banner of butchery, these guys can grind nearly every unit to pieces. It happened more than often that they withstood the charge of some quite deadly units (head on charge by khorne knights, for example.)

About boar boyz. Someone mentioned that they cannot win a frontal combat against a ranked unit... I guess many heavy cavalry units cannot. But in an army that has lots of slow foot troops, it is quite important too have some sturdy flank defenders. In the many games I lost (I'm not that good...) where my loss was due to loosing one of my flanks, it was most of the time the flank that wasn't protected by my savvy boar boyz. In an O&G army, if you ask me, the role of cavalry is not fighting ranked blocks.

kroq'gar
20-12-2007, 10:22
One of the best games i ever played was empire vs o & g.

By mutual choice there was no magic, so orcs had the numbers to bulk up without having to potentially waste points on magical defence.

Empires main strength is its ability to write two lists that are polar opposite, and by removing the magic component it reduced the battle to one hell of a fight.

Empire can still swing cav through to guns, but orcs can in reponse take more combat (and black) characters and troops, adding some stability to the animimosity.

It also makes the battle frontage longer, meaning detachments have to be used properly or they are a liability in the battleline.



In terms of a competative game, i've found that lots of orcs, (preferably big un's and blackorcs) can stick it to empire foot (provided you take out/tie up the combat detachment), and doomdivers ability to aim unnervingly onto empire cavalry is perfect devastating.

Taking lots of lesser foot troops means theres no juicy targets for cannons, and you can afford to throw units away to achieve flank charge etc


EDIT: heads up for the helstorm.

Ward.
20-12-2007, 10:40
Well heretic burner may have convinced few people, exaggerated a few points and gotten something slightly mixed up, but his point was essentially sound. Orcs and goblins are significantly weaker in this edition due to a poorly thought out set of rules, not broken exactly but definitely lack the orcish flair they used to have. Some "evidence" for this is the amount of assembled ork battalions that are showing up on ebay, in fact the other day I saw 46 boys go for 27 dollars (just missed it by a dollar).

As for combating empire, there's plenty of advice already available in this thread and most of it's sound.

Heretic Burner
20-12-2007, 22:52
I did see a thread where you convinced almost no one but went on a multiple page polemic about how Orcs and Goblins were broken using selective memory, faulty logic, and a lot of jumping to conclusions.

I don't personally recall that thread at all. I do seem to remember (vaguely) one where hard data was presented as evidence, backed up by multiple posters (including the originator of said data), shown to be the very data GW uses themselves for balance, and arriving at the most scientific conclusion possible. That other thread? No clue, sorry.



For what it's worth, I quite enjoy having these discussions where everyone can see them. It makes it that much funnier when you start on a rant again, then act wounded and martyred when people go after you. Yes, we know you're just trying to help all those potential orc and goblin players to not start a bad army. Here are three nails for you...

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Perhaps you've wandered in the wrong thread. This thread is about O&G against Empire and I would hope you'd have the respect for the original poster not to hijack it with bizarre personal and completely unrelated comments. Indeed you may very well do with the aforementioned private message button as well - to heap further praise on how much you "quite enjoy having these discussions" of course. I'm always welcoming more mail from my adoring fans.

Fhoen
20-12-2007, 23:04
please make him stop
take away his keyboard so he can't type anymore
Can't stand the whining and going on with some more whing about the same thing...
(He keeps doing it)
Really don't have anything against u Heretic , but u just keep complaining and nothing more

And i don't think private messaging would do anything to stop u from saying O&G are not good anymore

Crazy Harborc
21-12-2007, 01:57
I am sorry......I have to ask, it is a compulsion...in good humor.;)

Then why keep reading his posts??

sephiroth87
21-12-2007, 07:18
I don't personally recall that thread at all. I do seem to remember (vaguely) one where hard data was presented as evidence, backed up by multiple posters (including the originator of said data), shown to be the very data GW uses themselves for balance, and arriving at the most scientific conclusion possible. That other thread? No clue, sorry.



I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Perhaps you've wandered in the wrong thread. This thread is about O&G against Empire and I would hope you'd have the respect for the original poster not to hijack it with bizarre personal and completely unrelated comments. Indeed you may very well do with the aforementioned private message button as well - to heap further praise on how much you "quite enjoy having these discussions" of course. I'm always welcoming more mail from my adoring fans.


*watches heretic burner climb on cross* :p

And for what it's worth, you're still invited to tennessee to play me anytime. You can crash on my couch and I'll even take you to Hardee's. I'll buy you a burger, even with you probably complaining that the burger is underpowered next to other restaurants' burgers.

warlord hack'a
21-12-2007, 07:51
Empire are a far stronger army so the best thing to start off with is to understand that O&G are indeed the underdog.

As an O&G player you're weaker in the movement phase, the magic phase, the shooting phase, and if you aren't careful the close combat phase.
Magic? As always don't take it yourself - O&G are unquestionably the worst in the game in this department.

Depending on terrain squig hoppers are an option. Very hit and miss, but then again the entire O&G army is.

In many games using these two armies opposing I've found O&G tend to need an approximate 10% points boost. Keep in mind I've been playing both for years so someone with less experience with the greenskins might need even more of a handicap.


I would hope you'd have the respect for the original poster not to hijack it with bizarre personal and completely unrelated comments

No further comment

Grinloc
21-12-2007, 18:42
Heretic's approach is similar to mine when it comes to the 7th edition dynamics of O&G's. Back then i had 0 problems against empire, in fact empire armies had trouble to overcome the usual mass of mostly reliable T4 (thanks to black orcs of 6th edition).

Now after spending 100's or even 1000's of € on an army which was personally (!) enjoyable to play with, that very same army got significantly weaker in its new edition, making the use of it not enjoyable at all.

Now some O&G's supporters or even "lovers" are tired of hearing the complaints of highly dissatisfied people voicing their concerns and disappointment on the issue. But that doesn't give them any reason/right whatsoever to critizes the "haters'" personal feelings on the issue.
As if those haters would screw up that green parade.

Essentially saying things along the lines of "You say O&G's (ie. my army) are crap, but you are just wrong, so you lose..." is uncalled for. Since personal feelings on such an issue can't be wrong, no matter on which side they occur.

I for one don't remember Heretic saying "You refuse to accept the proposed evidence i provided as such, so you lose".
Respect the opinions of others, including those with whom you don't agree with, as much as your own and leave any personal rants out of the discussion. Getting riled up due to considering the personal opinion on things more valuable than those of others is quite questionable to say the least...

To get back at the "anti-empire" issue:
The most important issue which needs to get minimized is animosity. Losing a turn against a gunline is just disgusting. Since O&G's don't have flying units (besides a wyvern which wouldn't survive the second turn) and wolf riders lack the punch to break through commonly used war machine protection units they don't have any formidable means to stop that gunpowder spammage.

So (imo) load up on squig units, black orc heroes (and a scroll caddy), mork's spirit totem, 30-man orc boyz units and spear chukkas (against those annoying steam tanks). Outside of this your success will just depend on those dreaded animosity checks....as usual.

I sometimes had my "chances" to play against a real empire gunline. Due to things like spear chukkas and the "battle axe of the last waaagh" there were hellfire cannon batteries instead of steam tanks. Screwing up two animosity checks for 2 orc boyz units next to each other and staring in the face of 2 of those potentially devastating hellfire cannons doesn't feel good at all:mad:.

Kahadras
21-12-2007, 19:02
The most important issue which needs to get minimized is animosity. Losing a turn against a gunline is just disgusting. Since O&G's don't have flying units (besides a wyvern which wouldn't survive the second turn) and wolf riders lack the punch to break through commonly used war machine protection units they don't have any formidable means to stop that gunpowder spammage

Assuming you play a Gunline army of course. This seems to have turned from useful tactics against Empire to useful tactics against Gunlines with a lot of hositility mixed in for good measure.

Lets try to leave behind 'how to power game with O&G' and focus on building a reasonable army that can give a reasonable Empire list a decent game.

Kahadras

Grinloc
21-12-2007, 19:37
Why gunlines? Well, it's one of empire's real strong points.
I don't see any good reason for an empire player to leave his warmachines at home, not to mention crossbowmen.
It's easily possible for an empire player to have a "balanced" army list which still grants enough warmachine power to have a noticable impact on the battle when concentrating fire power on 1 or 2 units each turn...crossbowmen/hellfire batteries against greenskin cavalry for example.

I don't have any hostility at all against empire, i don't have any reason to think that way. Guess that's due to my lack of facing the "2 steam tanks, Karl Franz" bulls**t.
And powergaming with O&G's? Oh dear. O&G's don't have the powergaming builds which other armies have access to.
What would come remotely close to "powergaming" would be...i dunno...maybe 8 spear chukkas against mortal chaos forces :rolleyes:.

Kahadras
21-12-2007, 19:52
Why gunlines? Well, it's one of empire's real strong points.
I don't see any good reason for an empire player to leave his warmachines at home, not to mention crossbowmen.
It's easily possible for an empire player to have a "balanced" army list which still grants enough warmachine power to have a noticable impact on the battle when concentrating fire power on 1 or 2 units each turn...crossbowmen/hellfire batteries against greenskin cavalry for example.


Yes but that isn't a Gunline. That's an army with some shooting in it. A Gunline is dedicated towards shooting and very little else. Quite simply you can't get a 'balanced' Empire army that consists of a Gunline.


And powergaming with O&G's? Oh dear. O&G's don't have the powergaming builds which other armies have access to.
What would come remotely close to "powergaming" would be...i dunno...maybe 8 spear chukkas against mortal chaos forces .

You can 'power game' with any army. Just ditch the parts that hold the army back (yes, yes, I know the entire O&G book is a big pile of fail and the whole army holds the army back yadda yadda yadda etc etc).

Orc magic is a bit dangerous therefore no magic bar the obligatory scroll caddies. O&G suffer from animosity therefore Black Orc bosses all the way. Spam possibly the three 'best' options in the armies book (basic Orc boys, spear chukkas and squigs) etc.

Kahadras

Heretic Burner
21-12-2007, 22:47
*watches heretic burner climb on cross* :p

*watches sephiroth make some strange, blasphemous comments* How quaint.


No further comment

Nonsensically quoting me with no further comment is indeed just asking for, well, further comment however I'd be more than happy to hold you to your word. ;)


Yes but that isn't a Gunline. That's an army with some shooting in it. A Gunline is dedicated towards shooting and very little else. Quite simply you can't get a 'balanced' Empire army that consists of a Gunline.

Which is exactly why, as Grinloc pointed out, animosity is so lethal against Empire. It doesn't even need to be a gunline to devastate the O&G line. A single huntsman unit can do that. Throw in detachments (available in non gunlines and gunlines alike), fast cavalry, flying monsters, and lethal knights and Empire have all the tools to toy with O&G movement on their own turn.

Losing a turn to animosity is lethal against any Empire army, gunline, balanced, all knight, etc. Losing positioning due to lurching forward is equally lethal and is movement entirely in the Empire player's control. Hence the absolutely necessary black orcs.

Of course chariots are out against Empire so thats another non-animosity unit that must be compensated for. Large orc units with shields would seem a less than efficient option however they will at least be able to soak up firepower if your opponent is foolish enough to fire at them. Complete knight bait though and none-too-cheap at that size.

With a lack of speedy units not prone to animosity and facing perhaps the best shooting army in the game, black orc units are obviously out (though the slots are better spent on squigs/chukkas at any rate). With no dependable units to match Empire's mobility I truly believe those rare slots should be spent on DOW light cavalry - O&G simply don't have anything to do their necessary job in their army list.

So as it stands its pretty commonly thought that about two units of spider riders, a pair of DOW light cav, loading up on chukkas and squigs, and staying away from O&G magic seem to be key. That said, even with all of this there isn't anything that leaps up that shows a significant advantage over Empire units quite like the clear significant advantage Empire holds in shooting and movement.

Which leads us to an obvious problem. Up to now we've been tailoring the list to be effective against Empire and still not seeing that much of an advantage. However the opposite is true - Empire is more than capable of tailoring its list against O&G.



Lets try to leave behind 'how to power game with O&G' and focus on building a reasonable army that can give a reasonable Empire list a decent game.

A "balanced" O&G list is facing dire problems against Empire - its saddled with units that are simply juicy VP for Empire's shooting (such as chariots/giants/etc) and in most cases is indeed lacking in sufficient squigs. I just don't see how we can compare a 'reasonable O&G list' with a 'reasonable Empire list' - Empire simply have too much advantage that way.

So maybe the best advice is to tell the OP that "powergaming" in this situation is probably a very reasonable thing to do indeed. Don't worry too bad, I can't imagine O&G being called out on it (except in taking 8 chukkas) since even with the most min-maxing involved they still have no discernable advantage over Empire. So go head, tailor that list as much as you can its a very reasonable thing to do.

Crazy Harborc
22-12-2007, 02:34
Wargaming is not cut and dried....Do "A", move "C" to "W" and "XYI" must occur.....THAT doesn't happen for me.

I like pushing Orcs and Goblins VERY much. I like animosity in 7 better than before it. Yeah, I know....but, but, but.....this and that are wrong, broken, to strong , to weak.

To each his own. Each person can find what they want, what rules, minies or whatever. IF for whatever reason GW's rules, minies, stuff no longer floats your boat...there are plenty of other rules systems and types of minies.;)

Kahadras
22-12-2007, 05:43
Which is exactly why, as Grinloc pointed out, animosity is so lethal against Empire. It doesn't even need to be a gunline to devastate the O&G line. A single huntsman unit can do that.

Not really. Justifying calling a balanced Empire list a gunline due to O&G animosity is a bit silly IMHO.

Kahadras

Storak
22-12-2007, 07:22
Not really. Justifying calling a balanced Empire list a gunline due to O&G animosity is a bit silly IMHO.

Kahadras

hm. the typical "balanced empire list" i see, is one steamtank, 2 or 3 cannons, 2+ handguns, some knights, 1 or 2 infantry blocks and heavy magic or hero on pegasus. (2500+ games)

it surely feels like a gunline from an orc perspective.

sephiroth87
22-12-2007, 07:24
*watches as heretic burner puts in the first nail, screaming loudly about how he's dying for all orcs and goblin players' sins...*

My offer of letting you crash on my couch and playing you in some games still stands. :p I'll even spring for a bottle of yoo hoo while we play.

Kahadras
22-12-2007, 12:32
hm. the typical "balanced empire list" i see, is one steamtank, 2 or 3 cannons, 2+ handguns, some knights, 1 or 2 infantry blocks and heavy magic or hero on pegasus. (2500+ games)

it surely feels like a gunline from an orc perspective.

Not really. Add in another steam tank, another cannon, change the 2+ to 4+ for the handgunners and drop the infantry blocks down to zero then it will be a Gunline from the Orcs perspective.

Kahadras

Heretic Burner
22-12-2007, 16:41
As there is no definable cut off point for what makes an army a gunline or not Grinloc's statement stands. A steam tank, 3 cannons, 2+ units of handgunners, etc can indeed by viewed by many players as a gunline. Indeed, we already have evidence of a player who does so - Grinloc!

Whether or not it is a gunline is moot, its clearly more than capable of obliterating a Greenskin line and toying with them due to animosity. Aside from the lone 2 rare slots devoted to DOW, O&G have no means of preventing this.

As you believe that Stank, 3 cannon, 2+ handgunner army isn't a gunline, yet is more than capable of toying with Greensking animosity and being effective for all the reasons Grinloc listed, then this is exactly the reasonable balanced army in your view that O&G shouldn't be attempting to "powergame" against. However its clearly mandatory against even this reasonable, balanced army list. Which doesn't say much for having a fun game but that's GW's fault, not the Empire or Greenskin players.

Kahadras
22-12-2007, 16:54
Whether or not it is a gunline is moot, its clearly more than capable of obliterating a Greenskin line and toying with them due to animosity. Aside from the lone 2 rare slots devoted to DoW, O&G have no means of preventing this.


How? I don't see two/three cannon, a steam cannon and 20 handgunners obliterating 2500+ point worth of Orcs. I don't even see them 'toying' with their animosity (whatever that means).

Kahadras

lparigi34
22-12-2007, 18:28
Whether or not it is a gunline is moot, its clearly more than capable of obliterating a Greenskin line and toying with them due to animosity. Aside from the lone 2 rare slots devoted to DOW, O&G have no means of preventing this.


I agree with Kahadras... Heretic Burner, it seems to me that you kind of resent some recently games you lost due to animosity, I'm I right?. No sarcasm here, just trying to bring this back to a reasonable discussion.

I do play O&G, and have played many different O&G builds against many different Empire builds. So far my record is ok enough to say that I see no clear disadvantage for the O&G army.

With O&G you an have fast units that can cope with gunlines, bring in Wolves, Chariots, Boars and Catapults. Also big blocks of Orcs will usually make it to the line even if shot at... your opponent will have a hard time deciding between shooting incoming wolves or that block far away.

I frequently field a single giant that so far has never made it into CC. It always get shot before, but while he gets shot with massive fire the rest of my army advances towards the enemy line.

If you fear the Steam Tank that much, send in Grimgor and his guard or an Orc Warboss with the 100pts cleava riding a boar or surprise him with the same guy using the 100 pts Battleaxe in a huge Orc Unit... Voilá Tank...

There are too many ways to fight empire...

Grinloc
22-12-2007, 22:15
I considered such an empire gunline as such since it more importantly performed its job of preventing me from using those "can-opening" units which aren't prone to animosity. Such as giants, trolls, black orcs, chariots. To explain this further...

As a DE player i nowadays make heavy use of shades, harpies, dark riders and plenty of shooting when fighting against O&G's.

Sure, it's a mobile way of the shooting game with less lethal shots, but it still performs the job very well of disrupting the O&G's battle line and getting "free" shooting opportunities thanks to 1.) animosity and a therefor 2.) serious movement advantage. Now empire doesn't lack too far behind DE in the movement department, but it still can potentially be a serious threat to any animosity-prone greenskin force.

I don't deny that it can be optional/feasable to load up on trolls/giants, chariots, etc. but the outcome can get quite dissatisfying, even with such "animosity-free" units...

@Kahadras: I think what Heretic meant was an empire army concentrating their shooting on those "key units" which pack a punch and/or are quite easy to decimate, possibly forcing panic checks on their nearby mates in the process. Such as any kind of cavalry, dying giants, etc. O&G's LD isn't impressive after all and getting your "punch support" disabled/shot up is a very bad thing for any army.

warlord hack'a
23-12-2007, 13:23
here are some of my views of what to do against empire with three cannon and a steam tank:

1) make sure you have some fast cav that makes opimal use of available cover to race around a flank and threaten the 3 cannon of the empire. Suggestions: an orc boar chariot (only take chariots if there's enough terrain on the table to hind behind, we play quite terrain heavy but if you do not then leave them home) and spiderriders. Since he will have three cannon he will have only one slot left for his own fast cav, so if you take 3-4 units of fast cav you should dominate in that field.
2) Do not automatically put a hill in each deployment zone and maybe put a hill in the middle of the table (not in the 12" no go zone of course), gives you a lot of room to hide from shooting! After all it is written nowhere that each deployment zone should have a hill but almost all battles I see have this setup..
3) Your ld is not high, but neither is the ld of the empire forces. So get some artillery yourself and drop the load on his normal units. For shooting at rank and file a goblin spear chukka is more cost effective than an empire great cannon, so shoot some of his big blocks, make them panic. Rock lobbers are best against big blocks and artillery, spear chukkas against steamtanks and doomdivers against knights, skirmishers, warmachines and detachments.
4) ignore his knights (when he has only one unit of those) as far as shooting goes, just make sure you have some fanatics. After all, he will have only one unit of fast cav as the rest of his specials are cannon, so he will have trouble pulling out the fanatics.
5) you could consider making a 40 strong unit of sacrificial gobbo's, put a BO character in them to keep them moving and hide the rest of your foot slogging force behind them for the first two or three turns, effectively cancelling out his ground level handgunners but indeed it's a risky option as you are blocking your own view. And of course it only works if enemy shooting is not on a hill.
6) you might consider taking svg orcs: yes they are more expensive than normal orcs but they have a wardsave even against cannon fire and they do not panic. And when properly deployed he can forget about pulling them as there are only so many things that one unit of fast cav can do..
7) which brings me to the most important point: deployment. You should have more deployment choices, by a small margin. So you can decide where to put your weight after he finished deploying (and take into account any hunstmen!). With three cannon and auxilliary shooting he should have trouble using all his guns effectively (even when on a hill) when he has to shoot diagonally after you decided on the last minute to play with a weighed flank.
8) when you reach his line (after which you will have been shot at a lot) make sure you take care of his detachments as described in an earlier post. Since you can shoot him as well while you march forward he should not have a whole lot more ranks than you do and contrary to some claims S4 T4 orcs (especially svg ones) do beat empire core foot troops in hth.
9) When you do take some heavy hitters which points wise present nice targets to him, go all out and take a lot of them. If you take only one chariot that's a waste of points. But taking two, some svg orcs, some trolls and a unit of boar boyz, a unit of squig hoppers and three units of fast cav should give him enough to shoot at. Mind you, when you take all of the above that leaves room for only one doom diver, so not much artillery to shoot back at him..
10) worth special attention as anti-cannon units are trolls, svg orc boar boyz and squig hoppers. Trolls due to regeneration basically have a 4+ wardsave and are therefore surprisingly resillient versus cannon fire. Squig hoppers are great since they skirmish and can use terrain a lot and svg orc boar boyz do not panic and since only one dies every turn versus one enemy cannon and they move 14" each round some of them should reach the enemy artillery line and 2 are enough to obliterate the crew.

in short, enough things you can do to put the hurt to him!

warlord hack'a
23-12-2007, 13:46
oh yes and get the goblin big boss on wolf with wollopa's one hit wunda and the brimstone bauble or the battle brew. Usefull to take out the empire general or hurt his knights or hurt the Stank or take out a cannon or two. This guy has an 18" chargerange and when initially fielded in a big infantry unit will have no problem charging whatever it wants on turn 2, if not 1.

Storak
23-12-2007, 21:48
How? I don't see two/three cannon, a steam cannon and 20 handgunners obliterating 2500+ point worth of Orcs. I don't even see them 'toying' with their animosity (whatever that means).

Kahadras

the new orcs are basically a slow foot army. their main strength is the common orc.
they basically can t reach the gunline part of the empire army before the 4th turn. march interdiction (flyers, free company detachment and steamtanks) will make this even worse.

empire has the perfect troops to keep the fast O&G troops away. handguns panic wolfriders. cannons destroy chariots.

the steamtank(s) are a horror with the new animosity rule. being a large target, that freely operates in the middle of your troops, it will always be the closests target for any "we ll show them" result, leading to units wheeling in the most stupid way and basically preventing the call of a waaagh.


If you fear the Steam Tank that much, send in Grimgor and his guard or an Orc Warboss with the 100pts cleava riding a boar or surprise him with the same guy using the 100 pts Battleaxe in a huge Orc Unit... Voilá Tank...

There are too many ways to fight empire...

this one is funny. against the obligatory steamtank(s) it is tooled up chars, max boltthrowers, a lucky catapult hit or an equally lucky surviving giant.

soooooo many ways...


5) you could consider making a 40 strong unit of sacrificial gobbo's, put a BO character in them to keep them moving and hide the rest of your foot slogging force behind them for the first two or three turns, effectively cancelling out his ground level handgunners but indeed it's a risky option as you are blocking your own view. And of course it only works if enemy shooting is not on a hill.

this is a good tip, as are the majority of what you said.
it will of course prevent most benefits from our grand "we ll get them" BONUS rule.

i am not convinced about the placement of hills idea, though. this depends a lot, on how you handle terrain in your group.
my feeling is, that a lack of hills in the deployment zone will hurt O&G m in the long term more than gunline armies.
the gunline will often deploy cannons on the flanks anyway and will not have to deal with (a mass) of advancing own troops.

warlord hack'a
23-12-2007, 22:09
indeed not putting hill in either deployment zone might hurt O&G more than the empire forces (with the setup I describe below it probably will ;-)), but I just wanted to remark on it as a lot of comments mentioned how one unit could easily shoot up another unit and I tried to memorize all the tables we had in a 14 player tournament I organized two months ago and of the 7 tables (which we fitted with terrain beforehand) only 2 were so open as to make it hard to hide for at least part of the battle, most tables had enough forests or buildings to block LOS with a bit of manouvering.
Just like people a lot of times forget to think of misfires (which is why I prefer bolt throwers to rock lobbers) when describing how good a cannon/warmachine is they also often forget to think about the enemy hiding yet still advancing (one reason why spiderriders rock versus enemy shooting).

Aand as for fighting the steamtank, I think bolt throwers will do a good job. Say you take 4 (if the Stank is really obligatory I would take 4 chukkas for sure), that means that per turn you will hit a steamtank (if it's in plain view ;-)) 4*0.5 = 2 times when it's further than 24" away and 4*0.67 = 2 2/3 times when it's closer than that (which it will be since it's own cannon has 16" range or something if I recall correctly). Then you have a 50% chance to wound and then cause D3 wounds. So you expect to on average, with 4 chukkas firing unobstructed you will give the tank 2*0.5=1*d3 wounds = 2 wounds per turn, more (2.3) if it comes closer. That's a 300 point tank versus 140 points of artillery. Who needs Grimgor in such cases? (and yes indeed, terrain will mess up these plans, but not if the empire uses the Stank in the middle of his forces to mess up with the O&G animosity..

Storak
23-12-2007, 22:28
Aand as for fighting the steamtank, I think bolt throwers will do a good job. Say you take 4 (if the Stank is really obligatory I would take 4 chukkas for sure), that means that per turn you will hit a steamtank (if it's in plain view ;-)) 4*0.5 = 2 times when it's further than 24" away and 4*0.67 = 2 2/3 times when it's closer than that (which it will be since it's own cannon has 16" range or something if I recall correctly). Then you have a 50% chance to wound and then cause D3 wounds. So you expect to on average, with 4 chukkas firing unobstructed you will give the tank 2*0.5=1*d3 wounds = 2 wounds per turn, more (2.3) if it comes closer. That's a 300 point tank versus 140 points of artillery. Who needs Grimgor in such cases? (and yes indeed, terrain will mess up these plans, but not if the empire uses the Stank in the middle of his forces to mess up with the O&G animosity..

yes, every boltthrower will do 1/2 point of damage per turn. the problem with them is, that if you are (un)lucky, the tank will be in close combat quite often during shooting phase.

and against smaller targets, they often will not have LOS, when not placed on a hill.

on the other hand they are our best weapon against the pegasus hero, preventing march moves...
and they don t make good cannon targets.

looks like 4+ of them is rather compulsory against empire...

Kahadras
23-12-2007, 22:39
the new orcs are basically a slow foot army. their main strength is the common orc.
they basically can t reach the gunline part of the empire army before the 4th turn. march interdiction (flyers, free company detachment and steamtanks) will make this even worse.

empire has the perfect troops to keep the fast O&G troops away. handguns panic wolfriders. cannons destroy chariots.

Right so Empire have four turns to shoot at the slow foot based elements of the O&G army and also seem to be able to take out wolfriders/chariots/giants at the same time.

Basicaly the Empire can either deal with your core foot based units via shooting or your fast/scary stuff. OK you can march block but any decent O&G general knows about the dangers and certainly the ones I've met have taken this kind of stuff into concideration.


against the obligatory steamtank(s)

Lets try to steer away from 'obligatory' talk. No one I know (including myself) fields a steamtank in their Empire army.

Kahadras

Grinloc
23-12-2007, 23:26
Right so Empire have four turns to shoot at the slow foot based elements of the O&G army and also seem to be able to take out wolfriders/chariots/giants at the same time.

Are you using such phrases on purpose, just cause Heretic exagerated about it? Everbody knows no gunline can do that. Wolf riders, chariots and giants are potent O&G's key units.
Playing against empire essentially means no chariots (supporting orc boyz units on the charge) and no giants ("locking up" opposing units for several turns). Due to their speed wolf riders more often than not won't benefit from the general's LD, so panicing them is quite easy. No wolf riders means no "easy" flanking charges, no march blocking and no war machine harassing.

Essentially getting denied the opportunity to use primary "punch" units (so you don't provide your opponent with an easy VP shooting gallery) doesn't make it easier to fight against empire, it makes it quite harder really.

For me it's not only the fighting style of gunlines which i don't like at all, it's also those unit limitations such an army imposes on its opponent. At least empire gunlines can be somewhat entertaining on occasion, though dwarf gunlines are just a cheese-fest for my taste...

Crazy Harborc
23-12-2007, 23:51
When playing against longtime opponents who push Empire from time to time, I faced a steam tank 3 times in (until now) over 7 years.

In campaigns at the local GW, there were four Empire players. Two owned steam tanks, one used his(in 3 games total). That was in a one and a half to two year period.

Most of our(longtime opponents and I) games are 2500 points plus games. We use 4 by 8 tables. About half of our games are Orcs/goblins against Empire or Dwarves. Lots of fast cav and boar boys for the greenskins. Empire armies with gunpowder, including pistoliers, crossbows too.

Anyway, no one army wins all the time. No one opponent either.

Heretic Burner
24-12-2007, 03:13
I agree with Kahadras... Heretic Burner, it seems to me that you kind of resent some recently games you lost due to animosity, I'm I right?. No sarcasm here, just trying to bring this back to a reasonable discussion.

I've lost many games due to animosity. I've beaten many Greenskin armies due to animosity. It's a mechanic that has absolutely failed. Nothing about it being recent - it is extremely consistent.


I do play O&G, and have played many different O&G builds against many different Empire builds. So far my record is ok enough to say that I see no clear disadvantage for the O&G army.

The massive amount of statistical data collected from 7th edition onwards speaks otherwise. The advantage is overwhelmingly in Empire's favor. Owning extensive armies of both Empire and O&G, it has matched my own experience as well. Empire hold a substantial advantage in the movement, shooting, and magic phase and its simply an enormous burden for an O&G player to overcome.


With O&G you an have fast units that can cope with gunlines, bring in Wolves, Chariots, Boars and Catapults. Also big blocks of Orcs will usually make it to the line even if shot at... your opponent will have a hard time deciding between shooting incoming wolves or that block far away.

I don't know how fast catapults are but clearly chariots are not the answer against Empire being nothing better than near-free VP. Boars are absolutely dreadful, overpriced, and virtually unarmored - awful selections against Empire shooting. Wolves are somewhat decent but extremely unreliable, prone to even the lightest of Empire shooting, better off with spider riders almost every time.

Of course its animosity that proves O&G biggest downfall (whether big blocks of orcs, goblins, squigs, or almost anything else) being movement entirely in the hands of the opponent, particularly an opponent that can field scouting skirmishers, flying monsters, Stanks, and numerous detachment units. Its an absolute nightmare matchup for O&G.



I frequently field a single giant that so far has never made it into CC. It always get shot before, but while he gets shot with massive fire the rest of my army advances towards the enemy line.

Massive fire? Of course, its a huge amount of VPs that are served up on a platter. I can't see how it can possibly be a good idea of using that expensive and that vulnerable in a game to take firepower - of course it will its hardly a throwaway unit. Every Empire player would be licking their chops seeing that placed on the table.


If you fear the Steam Tank that much, send in Grimgor and his guard or an Orc Warboss with the 100pts cleava riding a boar or surprise him with the same guy using the 100 pts Battleaxe in a huge Orc Unit... Voilá Tank...

Clearly slow moving infantry units are no use against a Steam Tank no matter what character is marching with them. The mounted character is a marginally better option, however is easy VP to Empire shooting unless mounted in a massive Boar Boy unit which is absurdly overpriced and is putting an enormous number of VPs in one basket. Not very viable options against most Empire armies either way.



There are too many ways to fight empire...

Throw in going magic heavy and you've listed pretty much all the units I'd avoid using against Empire.

Clearly even the heaviest Empire gunline isn't expected to eliminate every O&G model to the last (nobody has suggested anything remotely close). It's meant to disrupt the O&G battle plan, disable key Greenskin unit, and in short offer a monumental advantage by the time the dreadfully moving O&G player gets his boyz into combat. By that time its generally mop up, particularly if Empire have a near intact line of their own (easy to do against O&G quite average shooting and worst magic in the game).

Kahadras
24-12-2007, 11:08
Are you using such phrases on purpose, just cause Heretic exagerated about it? Everbody knows no gunline can do that. Wolf riders, chariots and giants are potent O&G's key units.


Exactly no gunline can shoot everything. But people still seem to think that an average amount of firepower can totaly screw O&G which I feel just isn't true. OK they can weaken units and if they get lucky take down a couple but it's no where near cut and dried especialy with warmachines like the cannon.

Kahadras

warlord hack'a
24-12-2007, 18:28
The massive amount of statistical data collected from 7th edition onwards speaks otherwise.

Where is this massive amount of statistical data you speak of?

warlord hack'a
24-12-2007, 18:58
okay let's see:

If I understand correctly O&G can not take any fast cav units as they will be shot, can not take boar boyz, trolls, a giant or chariots as they will be shot, can not take squig hoppers as they will be shot and basically any other O&G unit will not work as they will suffer from animosity. So that leaves us with the safe choices of artillery, but hey, O&G can not hope to win from empire in a shooting match (which is the only remark I agree with)..

Now applying the same philosophy of 'don't take this unit unless you like giving free VP to the enemy' let's look at what the empire troops can better leave home against O&G:

1) forget about knights, O&G have very cheap bolt throwers as well as doom divers and fanatics and both make short work of knights, so you better leave them home otherwise you give the O&G player easy VP
2) forget about the Stank, O&G have very cheap bolt throwers and 300 points is a huge amount to invest in one unit. Might be a security risk here.
3) forget about fast cav: they have low ld and are easily shot to panic level after which they will run like hell, after all the empire fast cav has only ld 7, not that much worse than the ld 6 of the gobbo's. Also the empire fast cav can not move through terrain like spiderriders so they will be more prone to being shot.
4) now taking cannon can be a dangerous thing, after all the O&G have very cheap yet very fast fast cavalry as a core choice, so they might take a lot of those units and swamp your cannon. And the suicide gobbo of speed on wolf with wollopas one hit wunda will take out one cannon in round 2 with quite high likelyhood.
5) Infantry, hmmm, difficult, after all a rock lobber costs only 70 points and can really hit hard in the center of a parent unit, not only panicking them on ld 7 (not that impressive) but also having a good chance of panicing the neighbouring detachments as well.
6) detachments.. Well, they are small and will get munched by rank up units once in close combat, dangerous option..

Jeez, it's really difficult to bring any unit against the O&G force...

Now my point is, if it was not already clear, that of course there is a lot empire can take to fight O&G just as there is a lot that O&G can take to bug empire troops. When you look at any force unit for unit you will find ways to pick them apart, it's the whole army composition that you need to consider as a whole before you can make any remarks about what stupid choices are and what not. Like Kahadras mentioned, there is only so much you can shoot at and I expect O&G to take some artillery as well so the empire line will not be unscathed once the orcs get there.

soots
24-12-2007, 22:30
Curiously, this is the first time ive heard that huntsmen are broken.

Why is this?

Heretic Burner
25-12-2007, 02:30
Animosity.

It's not huntsmen in particular that are so lethal, its scouting skirmishers of any stripe.

warlord hack'a
25-12-2007, 10:10
indeed scouting skirmishers can be a pain, but they are for any army as they can marchblock very well. Compared to the effect of these troops on O&G animosity I think that marchblocking is much more annoying, or to put it another way:

O&G when rolling a 6 for animosity will move d6" towards the nearest VISIBLE enemy. Now if your opponent wants to mess up your plans using scouting skirmishers this means that he has to be visible to the O&G unit. This in turns mean that he can be charged, unless he is very far away from the O&G force. If the scouts are very far away they will not be marchblocking, if they are close by they can be charged which is a dangerous position for scouting skirmishers to be in. So in short: if scouting skirmishers want to mess up your plans by standing in the way of your troops and being visible to them and then hope yourroll a 6 on your animosity, then be happy as they are not behind your lines or invisible in the nearest forest marchblocking you..

And then I am not even talking about having spiderriders as a core choice, who are great at flushing out scouts, or squig hoppers who can charge scouts even when these are hiding inside the forest, or a cheap unit of night goblin archers targetting the fragile lightly armoured scouts, or a hit from a doom diver etc. etc.

Personally I envy enemy scouts as they limit where I can put my NG units with fanatics, then because they marchblock. Pulling animosity prone units is on third place but way way behind the other two.

Crazy Harborc
25-12-2007, 18:18
Weeelllll.......the Empire Huntsmen on this side of the pond do stop march moves (one maybe two). But S3 shots against T4 doesn't do too many successful wounds to the T4 Orcs (or whatevers) on this side of the pond.

IMHO....for every failed Orc army OR any other army choice, rhere is very likely a successful one somewhere else.

Do inanimate objects really cause a defeat? Ummmm, all this time I suspected it was the person moving threm around.;)

Heretic Burner
26-12-2007, 16:53
Fielding them I couldn't care less whether those huntsmen are shooting at T4, T5, T10 units. On any side of the pond they stop marches and absolutely devastate O&G lines due to animosity. There isn't even a need for them to fire all game for them to be so crippling to the greenskins. The amount of O&G units this lone Empire unit can disrupt is mind boggling.

Storak
26-12-2007, 20:45
if scouting skirmishers want to mess up your plans by standing in the way of your troops and being visible to them and then hope yourroll a 6 on your animosity, then be happy as they are not behind your lines or invisible in the nearest forest marchblocking you..

there is no "either march block OR mess up animosity" decision.
quite often they can easily do both.

scouts are placed last. no need to deploy them in charge range of goblin spider riders.

buildings jump to mind and obstacles. i don t even want to think about the effects that impassable terrain (cliffs?) or a river bend might have..

you can deploy them on the edge of a wood, in LOS of the infantry trying to pass the wood, but outside LOS of the spider cav (using the 2" rule).

animosity test is taken before movement. so the scouts are free to flee from any charge anyway.

the scouts simply may increase the probability of a disastrous effect of the "positive" part of animosity in early turns. then the tank and tiny free company detachments take over.

the main problems with the rule is losing LOS to your target (because it was more far away) and big blocks of infantry making a 45° move in front of another regiment, without being able to wheel again, due to ranks.

warlord hack'a
27-12-2007, 08:08
Storak, now you are not thinking realistically about a battlefield setup. First off the O&G player more often than not will outdeploy the empire player and will know while deploying that the empire player has huntsmen. Also the O&G player will almost always have spiderriders (certainly against enemies with shooting on a moderate or high level) and they will almost always be deployed on a flank. Thirdly, the O&G player while deploying knows in which terrain features the hunstmen can hide so he can make sure he has his scout-counter units facing those from as much angles as possible.

So yes, scouts are deployed last, in the small patches left completely determined by the O&G player as all other places are too dangerous. Buildings and obstacles and rivers are all the same to spiderriders: open ground.. Impassable terrain is just that, impassable (only to yethees it's not ;-)) so scouts can not go there. Hiding behing the lines will not work also because of some strategically placed bolt throwers who happen to have 360 degrees LOS.

So to summarize: because O&G most likely will outdeploy empire and most likely will bring one or two spiderrider units or other fast cav for on the flanks I think hunstmen are more a threat as marchblockers than as animosity pullers simply because when they want to pull animosity they have to be visible which means chargeable or shooteable. So yes they can pull animosity but their effect is in no way "mindboggling" and I still think that them hiding inside a forest marchblocking is much more annoying and disrupting than trying to pull a unit into moving a whole D6 inch towards them..

Urgat
27-12-2007, 10:17
You've all been ducking it out for several months through various threads already... aren't you all tired of that yet? :p

warlord hack'a
27-12-2007, 13:14
well I am not ducking it out anymore, this is not about the hot topic of O&G being broken yes or no, left that behind me (or at least I think so now.. ;-) ). This is about trying to keep clear what might happen and what will possibly happen when O&G face Empire.

You can very easily scare yourself when you think of everything that might happen while the chance of them actually occuring are quite small. For example, the hunstmen mentioned above might indeed seriously screw up the O&G battle line, but the chances of this happening are very remote due to terrain position needing to be exactly right, army composition needs to be exactly right or deployment errors need to have been made, a unit subject to animosity needs to roll a 6 on their animosity roll and then roll high enough for movement to actually make it far enough to block another unit and then also needs to be thus hampered that it can not in it's normal movement repair the damage. That is what I call a remote chance, especially compared to the effect that the same scouts would have on movement by marchblocking which is easier to achieve, gives a more reliable result and has a much more effect on much more units.

Storak
27-12-2007, 14:31
You can very easily scare yourself when you think of everything that might happen while the chance of them actually occuring are quite small.

i think you are slightly optimistic.
i wonder how much shooting damage you have done to skirmishers in soft or hard cover, with short bows so far...

and i think i remember, that buildings can only be attacked by infantry.

with scouts, the tank and cheap detachments, empire has the tools to make a significant number of the "positive" part of animosity hurt the O&G player.
other armies have more problems abusing the rule.

in a significant number of cases, the closest enemy unit will not be the most desired target. this can be annoying or devastating, depending on circumstances.

the problem of the orc army, when facing an empire gun line is slow movement of the main fighting blocks. waaaagh and "we ll show em" could compensate this, but most often wont against a clever empire opponent.

warlord hack'a
27-12-2007, 15:10
good point about the buildings, we have very few of those (still under construction). And as for being optimistic, I tend to be in normal life, but in warhammer I rely a lot on maths to see how likely and feasible things are. As for scouts, I still believe that their marchblocking ability is by far more annoying and effective than their animosity pull ability. As for shooting, I'm not talking about shooting with short bows that much, might work though. I'm more referring to one doom diver hit or maybe even a fanatic hit (though if one unit is good at frustrating O&G movement it's their own fanatics).

So yes, scouts are useful, yes they are annoying but no, I do not see them as a serious threat to pulling animosity prone units out of the way. The Stank however is much more annoying and better in that role in my opinion.