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Joe Cool
15-12-2007, 20:08
What exactly are defined as missile attacks? Regarding items like Golden Eye of Tzeentch that give a ward save against "all normal and magical missiles". The rulebook gives a list of missile weapons on page 57, and, naturally, no war machines are included. The war machine rules themselves don't state if they are missiles or not, unless you count fluff description (e.g. "Bolt throwers are huge crossbows that shoot a spear-sized missile). I was under the impression that attacks using BS to hit would be missile attacks, but couldn't find a rule for this.

So, my question is, do items that give a ward save against missiles work against wounds caused by war machines? Come to think of it, what about other ranged attacks, such as salamanders? Bolt throwers are clearly missiles, but RAW doesn't support even this. Any consensus?

theunwantedbeing
15-12-2007, 20:12
Anything fired at you in the shooting phase is a missle weapon basically.

EvC
15-12-2007, 22:46
...but some stuff could be argued that it isn't a missile attack, like Anvil of Doom attack and Banshee scream...

theunwantedbeing
15-12-2007, 22:50
Pretty sure those are stated to work like missle hits.
Anyway the rules say your only allowed to fire missle weapons in shooting phase.

EvC
15-12-2007, 23:16
It doesn't say it, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue.

If the rules say you're only allowed to fire missile weapons in the shooting phase, that means all standing and shooting is illegal, so it prob doesn't say that ;)

Ganymede
16-12-2007, 00:15
You could also take it to mean that if the shooting attack is not from a missile weapon, then you can't use it in the shooting phase.

Belerophon709
16-12-2007, 00:54
You could also take it to mean that if the shooting attack is not from a missile weapon, then you can't use it in the shooting phase.

Which would rule out the anvil... Which is used in the shooting phase...

Ganymede
16-12-2007, 03:59
Hey, pretty nice!

Fate
16-12-2007, 09:02
This is an interesting question indeed. All weapon described in the missile section of the book are indeed missile weapons, but there is no rulling that states that a cannon is a missile weapon.

Anyway my advice is, discuss this first with your opponent, if you want to go strickly by the rules there is no save from cannons and a few other things, if you want to go by logic then simply make the warmachines missile weapons (anvils and banshees do not count ever as missile weapons).

Greyfire
16-12-2007, 14:05
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that template weapons (cannon, mortar, dragon's breath, etc) don't ever count as missile weapons. Their damage isn't resolved as missile weapons and shooting method doesn't use BS.

Now, I'm not sure about non-template weapons (bolt thrower, salamander's spit acid, banshees scream, anvil of doom, helblaster, etc). Three of those us BS, the rest do not. Most would clearly not count as missile weapons, at least to everyone I've played with. Their damage may be resolved as missile attacks but I don't believe that turns them into missile weapons.

We've always played that missile weapons were the things that each model in a unit was equipped (yeah, I'd let you say the cannon was a missile if each crew member could carry a cannon on his back :) Wait, Leadbelchers do get to do that. :confused:) But I don't remember seeing a list like you're asking for.

-=- Steve

theunwantedbeing
16-12-2007, 14:12
So your all sugguesting that the golden eye does not protect the bearer and his mount from cannons?

Festus
16-12-2007, 14:39
Hi

Everything that fires a missile is a missile attack, not necessarily in the shooting phase:

Magic Missiles are missiles, Bolts, Arrows, Rounds are missiles, Thrown Weapons are missiles. War Machine Shots are missiles. Flames are missiles. Some Spells shoot missiles ...

Not all of them use BS, and not all of them necessarily have a S value.

... but some things in the shooting phase are not missiles, like the Banshee's Howl...

For once: Use common sense. What exactly is the problematic missile/non-missile you are talking about? If it is shot in a way, it is a missile, if it is not, it is not.

Festus

Greyfire
16-12-2007, 14:49
Another trait of missile fire (curtesy of my wife's recollection of the rules):

Missiles loose power and accuracy long before they reach their maximum range, so ranges are divided into two types: short range and long range.

That's on page 26 under range. So missiles must be capabile of suffering from a range penalty. That goes to supporting the definition that missiles are anything that uses BS. Maybe that helps clear up the definition some?

Of course, it could just confuse the issue more.


So your all sugguesting that the golden eye does not protect the bearer and his mount from cannons?
I don't think it would protect the character, but I can see the other side of the arguement, too. I've been trying to find a RAW to help clear this up but I can't find one. Now I'm back to just being confused. I'm thinking that it might be best to just go with what you and your opponent thinks is most fair. Heck, I'm for anything that provides protection vs the anvil of doom.

-=- Steve

Festus
16-12-2007, 14:52
Hi

No, range is not part of the description.

See Magic Missiles.

Festus

Greyfire
16-12-2007, 15:09
See Magic Missiles.
I did read that but didn't see anything that helped define a normal (aka mundane) missile attack. The item protects against (mundane) missiles and Magic Missiles. Magic Missiles are clearly defined. I wish that the (mundane) missiles were just as clearly defined.

But I am willing to switch sides. Like I said, I was just trying to find a RAW that cleared things up, but failing that I'll have to switch sides and go back to the common sense part of the rules. I did find one quote from Gav Thorp that I believe expressed the intent of that magic item (to protect against pretty much anything in the shooting phase) but that was from a long time ago in an edition far, far away. I don't discount what he said, I just wish there was something clear under the shooting section. :(

-=- Steve

Joe Cool
17-12-2007, 13:41
Everything that fires a missile is a missile attack, not necessarily in the shooting phase:

Magic Missiles are missiles, Bolts, Arrows, Rounds are missiles, Thrown Weapons are missiles. War Machine Shots are missiles. Flames are missiles. Some Spells shoot missiles ...

Not all of them use BS, and not all of them necessarily have a S value.

... but some things in the shooting phase are not missiles, like the Banshee's Howl...

For once: Use common sense. What exactly is the problematic missile/non-missile you are talking about? If it is shot in a way, it is a missile, if it is not, it is not.

I agree on using common sense, although some tournament players prefer RAW interpretation of the rules. That's why I'm asking.

Maybe my english is not as good as I'd hoped; I'm not completely sure what exactly are missiles. I never thought cannonballs or stones (from stone throwers) as missiles, but now that I've read this thread, I agree that they are. My bad. Maybe for fluent/native english speakers the word 'missile' is so obvious that no further clarification in the rules has not been seen necessary.

But still, I'd wish for more clarification. Why would dragon's breath be a missile and banshee's scream not? At least my common sense doesn't help me see a clear difference between the two.

My original point regarding cannons and other war machines is clear now, anyway.

EvC
17-12-2007, 13:58
I tend to just prefer the simplicity of "any attack in the shooting phase is a missile attack", even if it means my Banshees lose a little effectiveness against models with ward saves for shooting. Many disagree, however, but GW have yet to clarify...