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View Full Version : Who is responsible for founding a new Space Marine chapter?



Stingray_tm
16-12-2007, 14:31
A guy in my club finally found his army: Blood Angels. But he wants to create an own successor chaptor with heavy medieval crusade influences. He wrote very elaborate and creative fluff, but he doesn't exactly know, who gets a say in how and when a new Space Marine chapter is created. Is it the Blood Angels (in this case), the Administratum? Do some Space Marines just decide to do their own thing ;)

Sabbad
16-12-2007, 15:12
Only the High Lords themselves can authorise the creation of a new chapter, and they generally only do so in the direst of circumstances. New chapters requires new geneseed, which is never the most reliable of processes, and so doing a rushed-job of a Chapter creation usually causes more problems than it solves. Not to mention how expensive they are.

So, short answer: the High Lords of Terra.

TheLionReturns
16-12-2007, 15:21
I think Chapter Masters can request the founding of successors but approval has to come from the high lords of terra.

Leftenant Gashrog
16-12-2007, 16:08
Chapter Master Anaziel of the Dark Angels did petition the High Lords to authorise the creation of the Disciples of Caliban, but it was an unprecedented occurrence.

Moi Dix Mois
16-12-2007, 16:24
Only the Emperor can found a new chapter.

In practise this is done by the High Lords, who speak for him. Chapters are only rarely founded on an induvidual basis, it's usually done in one mass event.

Just get your friend to attach his chapter to one of the previous foundings. Avoid the 13th or the (I think) 21st, unless he wants his chapter to be cursed or just generally 'odd'.

heretics bane
16-12-2007, 18:55
A chapter mast pertitions for a new chapter>highlords discuss>adpets of mars(they have the geneseed, dont they) and thats the3 steps that it takes to make a new marine chapter

Iuris
16-12-2007, 20:41
Could we expand the theme a bit?

OK, we know that the SM chapters are independent of the empire - the Badab war was a case where the Astral claws managed to draw other chapters into the conflict by convincing them that the conflict was about SM autonomy.

So, how would this happen in a new chapter?

Personally, I'd expect that no chapter is formed completely anew. Geneseed is multiplied under the authority of the High lords, but then, a nucleus of the new chapter is established by an older chapter. A promising commander is given the chapter mastership, and veteran marines are sent to train up the first recruits.

Anyone got a better idea? Because I'd love tho know who a new chapter's first teachers are.

PotatoLegs
16-12-2007, 20:45
I'm pretty sure Chapters go behind the High Lord's back to form their own successors too. The amount of chapters that spring up out of no where, to swoop in and rescue some entrenched imp guard regiment is a well over-used example of deus ex-machina in 40K fluff

Sabbad
16-12-2007, 20:59
Why would Chapters *want* to create successors? It just draws away recruits and equipment they are in desparate need of themselves.

imperial_scholar
16-12-2007, 21:18
A guy in my club finally found his army: Blood Angels. But he wants to create an own successor chaptor with heavy medieval crusade influences. He wrote very elaborate and creative fluff, but he doesn't exactly know, who gets a say in how and when a new Space Marine chapter is created. Is it the Blood Angels (in this case), the Administratum? Do some Space Marines just decide to do their own thing ;)

There is a big problem with the blood angels. They realize that their geneseed is flawed and don't want to spread their geneseed any further. However, they do use geneseed to make new chapters all the time without the consent of the chapter... but this would not be something the blood angels would desire.

If your friend wants to use Medieval crusade influences, it would be best to use the Black Templars as a basis... or the Dark Angels.

Your friend can do what he wants.. but it won't make much sense fluff-wise.

In general though... Chapters do spring up... but are generally created for a specific instance and sometimes a specific long term mission and then are disbanded. Chapter creation is a very specific and intentional thing... it's not soemthing that can be done quietly without the high lords or the Inquisition being involved.


I'm pretty sure Chapters go behind the High Lord's back to form their own successors too. The amount of chapters that spring up out of no where, to swoop in and rescue some entrenched imp guard regiment is a well over-used example of deus ex-machina in 40K fluff

They spring up out of no where because they may not be renown. Chapters would take 10 years.... minimum to form. Maybe 100 years to be combat ready. I doubt chapters would 'Split' on their own as Geneseed is paid to the high lords as a Tithe and Geneseed is very special and rare commodity.


Why would Chapters *want* to create successors? It just draws away recruits and equipment they are in desparate need of themselves.

I agree. Not so much for equipment... but because a chapter probably doesn't have the resources to split without harming its own ability to fight effectively.

Sabbad
16-12-2007, 21:48
Not so much for equipment


Only so many suits of Terminator Armour to go around.

Brother Siccarius
16-12-2007, 23:31
Only the Emperor can found a new chapter.

In practise this is done by the High Lords, who speak for him. Chapters are only rarely founded on an induvidual basis, it's usually done in one mass event.

Just get your friend to attach his chapter to one of the previous foundings. Avoid the 13th or the (I think) 21st, unless he wants his chapter to be cursed or just generally 'odd'.

I think he was referring to creating a successor chapter, and not making an entirely new chapter.

21st was an example of an entirely new chapter, with tech-priests toying with gene-seeds. There were a couple lesser versions of this in the past, where geneseeds and genestock was mixed between two chapters.

A Successor chapter on the other hand is less of a to-do as a Chapter is limited by the High lords as to how many it can have within it's ranks. Once they reach a golden number the chapter has some of it's forces removed from it who take a new homeworld (usually part of the old chapter's region of space) recruit new Marines, barter new deals with the Mechanicus, and they're on their way. The part removed from the original chapter forming the first 2-3 companies while the rest is filled in with new recruits.

As to Terminator armor, it's possible to make it still, but extremely expensive as only a few of the largest and oldest Forge Worlds can make them, and even then just because you can afford it doesn't mean they'll make it for you.. The Grey Knights are an example of this, with their specially made Terminator Armor and weapons being attuned to individuals and being described as 'un-wieldable' by anyone else. They even show evidence of a slight increase in the technology of Terminator armor with the very form of it!

Terminator armor wasn't something that came out of the Dark Age of Technology. It was something that was started at the beginning of the Great Crusade, and is still being worked on, same with Power Armor. The Very first of the Emperor's warriors on Terra wore the original Terminator armor which was little more than their powered armor with heavier armor plates and external servos to make it useable. The form of it we see now wasn't used until the Heresy or right after (it's all little more unclear on when the current design came to be used).

imperial_scholar
17-12-2007, 00:20
Only so many suits of Terminator Armour to go around.

Good point.. I was thinking vehicles, weapons, space ships, and specialists.
More 'beans and bullets' sort of stuff.

You think about terminator armour and the Ultramarines who have been around a very long time only have 50 suits.

Anyways... in addition to the original topic...
Maybe his friend is confused because the second founding was done by the Marines themselves. but it is my belief that this was proving their loyalty to the Codex Astartes.

FruitSmack!
17-12-2007, 01:00
Wow, this is a really good (and complicated) topic.

Firstly, you have to remember that there is two things going on when a chapter, or potential chapter is founded. You probably have someone who wants the chapter and you have the High Lords of Terra that actually approve the chapter. The Dark Angels successor chapter, Disciples of Caliban, was formed when Azrael the Chapter Master petitioned to have one made which is supposedly a rare event. I'd imagine that others, in a less "public" fashion, appeal to the High Lords for Chapters and that the High Lords themselves commission chapters for their purposes too.

From the background, it also seems that the High Lords do a founding whenever there is a need for it. For example, the Astartes Praeses were a founding of 19 Space Marine chapters that were founded to guard the Eye of Terror and stop Chaos incursions from there.

As for equipment and training, I'd imagine that the basic Space Marine equipment would be provided for them in decent quantities or at very least the resources to make it themselves. While lots of technology is a mystery to the Adeptus Mechanicus, I highly doubt they have problems getting a hold of things like Rhinos, Bolters, and basic Mk. 7 power armor.

I'd reckon that a founding that is a direct successor would have a bigger "leg up" so to speak (such as a successor from the Blood Angels or Dark Angels) as opposed to a Codex chapter that's 10 foundlings removed from the Ultramarines.

Anyway, I don't think it's a big mystery about the founding. There's a need and the High Lords fill it; although I doubt that they do it lightly since it would be a serious undertaking to start a whole new chapter.

aaron

PotatoLegs
17-12-2007, 02:10
They spring up out of no where because they may not be renown. Chapters would take 10 years.... minimum to form. Maybe 100 years to be combat ready. I doubt chapters would 'Split' on their own as Geneseed is paid to the high lords as a Tithe and Geneseed is very special and rare commodity.



I agree. Not so much for equipment... but because a chapter probably doesn't have the resources to split without harming its own ability to fight effectively.


I'm refferring to examples like one or two DA successor chapters - the Consecrators I believe came from no where with no history behind them. Of course this doesn't mean they weren't originally approved by the High Lords, but their history has been deliberately left open, so I don't see why you'd automatically assume the High Lords were involved.

The DAs have more than enough excuses to do stuff in secret, and with the whole example of the Disciples of Caliban this further adds to the unorthodoxy of the DAs.

The Blood Ravens also have no record of their founding chapter. I guess that also doesn't write off the possibility the High Lords had no hand in their creation, but as the book is open on them as well its anyone's guess as to what is going on with them

Captain Gawain
17-12-2007, 03:14
IIRC, It takes 55 years to grow enough geneseed, from stasis held progenoids, to create all the organs needed to implant enough neophytes to start a new chapter. (no source except my cluttered mind, I think it comes from the fluff bible...)

This would not be undertaken lightly, and as others have mentioned, it would be something that would be done as a "founding", as in many chapters created at once. The formation of just one chapter, for any purpose, would be so time consumeing and expensive as to be counterproductive. And since only the Emperor himself can "commision" a new founding of chapters, and only by speaking through the high lords is this possible...

All chapters created since the heresy are a successor chapter, as they are created from geneseed from one of the parent loyalist chapters. I would gather, the codex being what it is, would not allow a splinter group of any chapter to break away without some sort of serious repercussions.

The only reason that the loyalist legions split was due to the pressure put on them by the High Lords, Guilliman in particular, to follow his planned restructureing of the existing legions to his new "codex" standard.

imperial_scholar
17-12-2007, 06:12
I'm refferring to examples like one or two DA successor chapters - the Consecrators I believe came from no where with no history behind them. Of course this doesn't mean they weren't originally approved by the High Lords, but their history has been deliberately left open, so I don't see why you'd automatically assume the High Lords were involved.

Because, Anaziel had to request to form the chapter. While they might have done it using the Dark Angel Geneseed, they still needed permission. With the exception of 2nd founding; creating a Space Marine chapter without the high lords consent would most likely be seen as heresy.



The DAs have more than enough excuses to do stuff in secret, and with the whole example of the Disciples of Caliban this further adds to the unorthodoxy of the DAs.

I'd still like to point out that Anaziel had to request the creation of the chapter. The Dark Angels geneseed was not used any further past the 2nd founding (and the creation of the DoC) despite it being as good as the Ultramarines; the reason for that is clearly cause of the +++CLEARANCE LEVEL ALPHA REQUIRED+++ ;).

In that instance, they still had to work within the imperial structure. I know you probably want to see the DA as special, but drawing more attention to their chapter would not something the DA would seek.

For a chapter to create it's own successor would require apothecaries and techmarines to work overtime to create geneseed. They'd have to provide their Tithe, sustain losses and create enough for a new chapter. All the while in secret. Not to mention a chapter would have procure Space Ships, Crew, weapons, armour, tanks, bikes, and all logistics of the mentioned items. It's a gargantuan task.

It would be very suspicious if the DA requested a large quantity of new equipment. The DA would bring a world of hurt onto themselves if were discovered.


The Blood Ravens also have no record of their founding chapter. I guess that also doesn't write off the possibility the High Lords had no hand in their creation, but as the book is open on them as well its anyone's guess as to what is going on with them

I was hoping to find the reason why the BR's were created. Unfortunately I can't. However, a lack of knowledge of their legacy is the main quest of their chapter. I think the BR's are a good example of Games-workshop "We're working on it" fluff.

Fluff is pretty clear on this though... Only the High Lords can Approve a creation of a new Chapter.

PotatoLegs, I enjoy having this discussion with you but I just can't be convinced otherwise.

Brother Siccarius
17-12-2007, 06:30
...with the exception of the 21st founding, which was a group of renegade tech-priests and apothecaries, yes, yes it does need High Lord aproval.

Unless there was another such case in one of the unmentioned and not covered foundings.

Finnith
17-12-2007, 09:57
Creating a new chapter is whilst probably one of the coolest things to happen is also terribly dull. First of all you have to go through the endless admin work to start up a founding, get everything counter signed in triplicate. Im guessing over 100 years spent getting stuff signed, forms falling behind the desk, people not answering the phone etc. Humans are still humans afterall and theres only so many super hard death worlds to go around.

Then they need to go through all the gene seed sent back to them from each space marines chapter to monitor purity. If your friends going for blood angels then theres a pretty high chance that the seed is either a fake, taken from another chapter, grown by the chapter specifically to sent to mars or taken and cloned from the most stable form of gene seed available to the blood angels: Dante's! (1000+ years and no side effects must mean theres something going on there).

Then you take 1!! geneseed and implant it in a host body in a vat, which then grows another one. These is then taken and put into 2 individuals, 4 geneseeds now. 4 vat people makes 8 seeds and so on. Whilst this is going on Mars dockyards are building new ships, power armour, tanks etc.

Once the equipment is ready a suitable chapter is found to mentor the new one and potential chapter masters chosen from them. Recruitment starts on the new world under the gaze of the new chapter master and a few veteran sergeants. The new chapter works with the mentor chapter until they are sufficiently trained and equipped to work on their own. This is where blood angels successors can struggle unless they are watching after their own and can brief the new chapter on potential problems and keep the lid on their own problems.

Leftenant Gashrog
17-12-2007, 13:50
...with the exception of the 21st founding, which was a group of renegade tech-priests and apothecaries, yes, yes it does need High Lord aproval.


The 21st Founding was the largest founding since the 2nd, whether the High Lords actually knew about/authorised all the dodgy geneseed meddling I dont know, but I doubt very much that the Founding itself could have taken place without the High Lords sanctioning it. (not least of which because if it wasnt an officially sanctioned founding why would it be numbered as an official one?)

Shibboleth
18-12-2007, 08:36
The High Lords make the decision but the admin. work, etc is done by their adepts in the 'Senatorium Imperialis' (of which the High Lords are a part of anyway), probably coordinating with the Adeptus Mechanicus, etc.
They'd probably be the ones doing all the recruit selection, equipment assignment, etc. following the High Lords decision.

PotatoLegs
18-12-2007, 19:27
Because, Anaziel had to request to form the chapter. While they might have done it using the Dark Angel Geneseed, they still needed permission. With the exception of 2nd founding; creating a Space Marine chapter without the high lords consent would most likely be seen as heresy.

I'd still like to point out that Anaziel had to request the creation of the chapter. The Dark Angels geneseed was not used any further past the 2nd founding (and the creation of the DoC) despite it being as good as the Ultramarines; the reason for that is clearly cause of the +++CLEARANCE LEVEL ALPHA REQUIRED+++ ;).

In that instance, they still had to work within the imperial structure. I know you probably want to see the DA as special, but drawing more attention to their chapter would not something the DA would seek.

For a chapter to create it's own successor would require apothecaries and techmarines to work overtime to create geneseed. They'd have to provide their Tithe, sustain losses and create enough for a new chapter. All the while in secret. Not to mention a chapter would have procure Space Ships, Crew, weapons, armour, tanks, bikes, and all logistics of the mentioned items. It's a gargantuan task.

It would be very suspicious if the DA requested a large quantity of new equipment. The DA would bring a world of hurt onto themselves if were discovered.



I was hoping to find the reason why the BR's were created. Unfortunately I can't. However, a lack of knowledge of their legacy is the main quest of their chapter. I think the BR's are a good example of Games-workshop "We're working on it" fluff.

Fluff is pretty clear on this though... Only the High Lords can Approve a creation of a new Chapter.

PotatoLegs, I enjoy having this discussion with you but I just can't be convinced otherwise.


Well your mention of second founding chapters is maybe where we can come to a compromise? Certainly the amount of secrecy, autonomy and dated equipment The Consecrators have would suggest they were second founding. Added that there's no records of the I think very plausibly suggests that they were formed without anyone's authority, bar that of the DAs themselves.

But you're right, after the second founding the autonomous forming of a chapter would be regarded heresy; after all the point of breaking the legions was to distribute their power.

My example of the Disciples of Caliban was totally in acknowledgment that the Chapter Master had to get approval from the High Lords, but I wanted to point out it was highly unorthodox and something no other chapter had ever done before. Its a flimsy case, I know, but the point is purely that despite strict doctrine, the SM chapters still do a lot under their own volition

And don't get me wrong, I don't want to use my example of DAs as some sort of hero worship, and that's why I included the BRs because I'm well aware that a lot of Chapters have their own secrets and shifty pasts. And of course most of the time its simply to say that GW are simply keeping the fluff ambiguous.

imperial_scholar
18-12-2007, 22:57
Well your mention of second founding chapters is maybe where we can come to a compromise? Certainly the amount of secrecy, autonomy and dated equipment The Consecrators have would suggest they were second founding. Added that there's no records of the I think very plausibly suggests that they were formed without anyone's authority, bar that of the DAs themselves.

But you're right, after the second founding the autonomous forming of a chapter would be regarded heresy; after all the point of breaking the legions was to distribute their power.

My example of the Disciples of Caliban was totally in acknowledgment that the Chapter Master had to get approval from the High Lords, but I wanted to point out it was highly unorthodox and something no other chapter had ever done before. Its a flimsy case, I know, but the point is purely that despite strict doctrine, the SM chapters still do a lot under their own volition

And don't get me wrong, I don't want to use my example of DAs as some sort of hero worship, and that's why I included the BRs because I'm well aware that a lot of Chapters have their own secrets and shifty pasts. And of course most of the time its simply to say that GW are simply keeping the fluff ambiguous.
PotatoLegs,
Thanks for continuing the discussion. I can understand your point of view. I'm sorry if I came off a little bold on that post as it was late and I clearly misinterpreted the meaning of you post.

As I understand Imperial Politics is that Space Marines are allowed to operate independently and political dealings with a chapter has to be done on a chapter to chapter basis. Being cool with 1 group of Space Marines doesn't make you cool with all of them.

They are independent though to preserve their fighting strength. If not given time to rearm, regroup and recruit a chapter would quickly die off as their skills are always in need. Also bossing around 1000 super human Mini-tanks wouldn't go in any Administrators' Favour.

I think the foundings of chapters (fluffwise) is a lot of work for GW as they have to make sure that it doesn't conflict any current fluff. I can agree your argument is flimsy however, you have made a compelling argument. I guess really the easiest route to saying a Space Marine 'could' create it's own chapter and alter records through the back door of imperial records.

I.E.
The Dark Angels Created a further Successor Chapter on their own accord. Slowly Scavenging, recovering, capturing equipment over 100's of years. Upon growing enough Geneseed for for 3 Companies they put their plan into action. The creation of The Consecrators (or another name there).

Upon their creation many Inquisitorial honour depts were called in and formed a conspiracy to alter Imperial Records. Inserting the Consecrators into Imperial Records and including them into the Imperial Logistical Chain. Thus creating another 'Unforgiven Chapter'.

------

I guess it could happen... but to great risk to the many that would have to be involved. I still think its a huge stretch as it is.... and it would be most likely be noticed. I'd give a Space Marine Chapter Creating it's own Successors 1% chance of success. Given at how large the 40k universe is... that 1% chance is still pretty good.

Corporal Chaos
19-12-2007, 12:23
I bet there are chapters that found new ones on their own. Or some Rogue Trader that needed an army while on his travels. An isolated planet out of imperial space a labratory and a stock of gegneseed from the attached SM chapter and VIOLA a new chapter is founded. Imperial records are sketchey at best and many chapters could have been founded without anyones knowledge. It is a big universe and that is my take on things..

Jellicoe
19-12-2007, 13:06
I would also suggest that the High Lords would also bear in mind Chapter losses and by that I mean whole chapters, either through irreparable losses (eg. celestial lions) or accidents in the warp or battlefield annihilation. There is a list somewhere detailing the reasons of loss for about 50 chapters.

It may be that the High Lords only feel compelled to create new chapters to keep to the 1000 chapter figure (or is this number just old RT fluff?)

deathskullork
19-12-2007, 14:59
I always though new chapters were made when an existing chapter gets too many marines. I thought the whole point of the original chapters splitting up was so no one man had too much power.

imperial_scholar
19-12-2007, 15:21
I always though new chapters were made when an existing chapter gets too many marines. I thought the whole point of the original chapters splitting up was so no one man had too much power.

That is true.. but most chapters regulates their recruits. They don't recruit if they don't need too... but scouts die so easy.. I'm sure they keep a couple as backup.