View Full Version : The Eldar and the C'tan's great plan to seperate the Material Universe and the Warp

Captain Stern
19-09-2005, 18:35
I don't know if this theory is new or not but it occured to me how similar this grand plan of the Ctan was to the Eldar myth/history The Tears of Isha, where Assuryan 'placed a great barrier between mortals and gods, dividing them for all eternity and forbidding any further contact between them'.

What I'm wondering is could this plan of the C'Tan have actually taken place, but with dissapointing results? By that i mean gods can no longer enter the Material Universe (like they did in the Eldar wars against the 'Yngir'), but psykers are still able to utilise the warp (but maybe not as easily as they used to?). The snag in this theory is that the Eldar maintain it was Assuryan, and not the C'tan, who was the architect. Then again of course, the history of the Eldar in regard to the C'tan is often quite contradictary and confusing. A good example being Khaine; who sometimes fought alongside the C'tan against his fellow Gods; and The Laughing God, who some people think might have also been the deceiver. Was he the only God/C'tan to occupy two personas? The Eldar Gods and the C'tan seem remarkably similar sometimes...

What do you think? If I'm wrong, and bearing in mind that the Eldar myths are supposed to contain at least a core of truth, then what exactly is the significance of the Tears of Isha myth?

19-09-2005, 19:20
Well there is fluff and then there is meta-fluff. :p

Remember that the original Tears of Isha fluff predate the new C'tan fluff by about 10 years. Consequently trying to make the two match up is always going to be a fraught endevour. It seems unlikely that Asuryan would have aided the C'tan (at least directly) but it is hard to know how to interpret this piece.

Remember that Asuryan acted to protect the Eldar from Khaine's pre-emptive anger. One possibility is that at some point during the War in Heaven, the destructive powers unleashed by the Eldar and their gods may have become almost as much a threat to the Eldar as to the C'tan they were fighting.

One possibility is that the "barrier" was not a construct in the traditional sense. Rather it may have represented the start of the Eldar ritualizing their methods of accessing the Warp (the development of the first runes). By creating a system to formalize the use their psychic abilities they could thus gain a measure of control over them.

Khaine would no longer burst forth spontaneously whenever the Eldar fought but rather would need concious effort and ritual to summon (a precursor to the Ritual of Awakening that Craftworld Eldar use to summon tha Avatar in the 41st millenium).

I am firmly of the belief that the changing nature of the Eldar gods during the war in heaven actually reflect the changes of the Eldar themselves during the same time. Remember that warp is a mirror of emotions and psychic energies. The Eldar gods are formed in the mental image of the Eldar themselves. Khaine attacking the Eldar could be a representation of how allowing their warlike attributes to totally dominate their psyches became not only destructive but self-destructive.

The barrier probably represents the way the Eldar managed to gain a measure of control of their agressive tendancies. They learned to harness and channel their agression rather than giving in to mindless blood-lust.

Khaine's Messenger
19-09-2005, 22:30
What I'm wondering is could this plan of the C'Tan have actually taken place, but with dissapointing results?

Maybe. Or maybe it was a control mechanism of the Old Ones or a result of Khaine slaying Eldannesh (who was said to be one of the "channelers" of the Eldar gods iirc)? That's kinda the problem about stuff like this. One could say that the C'tan did it...one could say that the C'tan were inspired by it...one could even say the C'tan took credit for it (Kaelis Ra: "Yo, Jackal Dude? I've rather noticed that, at tea time, Mr. KM Khaine does not show up for cookies like he used to...oh, you say Mr. V. Dragon's invented some new frazzlepop gizmo? Neatyo! Can he make me one, do you think? In black?") when they had nothing whatsoever to do with it at all. Whatever the case, I'm pretty sure it'll fall down to how you pick and choose your favorite interpretation. Not to say your hypothesis isn't especially valid, as it is a bit tempting...but I don't think it's as simple as that.

what exactly is the significance of the Tears of Isha myth?

The significance of the Tears of Isha myth is to explain Eldar cosmology. There is this plane, the physical, tangible one, and then there is a heavenly "other" plane, where the Gods reside. At some point in the past, passage between them was simple...now it's hard. The exact reason for this is unclear, hence "Asuryan did it" makes for a good way to fill in the gaps. Whether this in fact became so due to the increasing cacophany of other nascent warp entities, the dangers of the Great Plague (Enslavers & Psychic Vampires and suchlike), or the early work of the C'tan...dunno...but "Asuryan did it" seems to cover it for the Eldar, and the reason was to protect the Eldar from a very ticked off Khaine.

19-09-2005, 23:15
There is also the suggestion covered in Engel's mythology thread a while back...


Khaine's Messenger
19-09-2005, 23:18
Ah yes. Has that been posted to Warseer or placed anywhere we can see it...or did it die with Portent? I've no idea why it skipped my mind.

19-09-2005, 23:31
It's been reposted here, but with additional discussion... I shall go and try to find it, editing this post when I can.

Edit: Actually, it was the 'Old One Ascension Theory' that I was referring to. this can be found here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10671). I'm not actually sure whether the 'Eldar Mythological Cycles' made it over here. Guess we'll have to ask Engel.


20-09-2005, 00:31
i dont think the Eldar Mythological cycle made it over here, but im sure Engel will have it saved on his computer

20-09-2005, 07:00
Actually in the mythology Isha teaches the Eldar runes in order to talk to her children after the barrier is setup. So this new focused way of channeling the warp came about once the old unstructured way become impossible to practice (for whatever reason).

Gorbad Ironclaw
20-09-2005, 08:38
Maybe, maybe not. It could just as easily be Isha teaching the eldars the runes to form the barriar and protect her children. So while they allowed them to talk to her afterwards, they also created the very problem they supposedly was made to solve.

22-09-2005, 06:45
There is also the possibility that the sundering of the material universe and the warp by Asuryan was not an event provoked by anyone but the natural consequences of the imbalancing of the war due to the strong emotions of the War in Heaven.

We know that the warp become more and more tumultuous as the war went on, as countless billions died at the hands of the C'tan and Necrons and as the Old Ones experimented in creating psychic races.
As such it became more and more difficult for the Gods to manifest themselves until it was utterly impossible. The legend of the the Tears of Isha was later made up by the Eldar to explain why their gods would no longer manifest among them.

23-09-2005, 12:43
That's one of the reasons that I prefer the difference between the consensual (matterium) and subconsensual (immaterium), even if I do divide those into a number of different 'levels' (i.e. the "layered warp"). In this way the ante-War in Heaven universe was akin, in some regards, to the 'dreamtime'. As more races were 'awakened', Mind and Spirit diverge (in some way) and everything goes pear shaped!