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Duymon
15-04-2005, 18:05
Perhaps I am a few months behind, but is it me or does every single SM player on the planet lead their army with a chaplain?

Isn't it sad for mr company captain or chapter master to sit all day in the monastery while their chaplain lackeys lead their troops from campaign to campaign? :p

It's just that lately I feel there are too many chaplains. 3/5 of all SM conversions are chaplains it seems, and while the talent is great doesn't anyone else feel sort of jaded by the whole thing? You can only see so many marines in black with chaosy bits, a stick with a bird on it and a rosarius :p

Perhaps I shouldn't even bother to flush out my company with a chappy, i'd be too tempted to use it instead of my captain :(

I just wish GW hadn't beefed up the chappy to make it obviously overpowered in comparison to the poor commanders and libbies :(

Jmitchell
15-04-2005, 18:22
I agree, I use a librarian and only the ONE HQ choice for character. To many people go overboard with chaplins, for instance i had to point out to one person I played that a space marines company doesn't have TWO chaplins! :mad:

Other HQ get good upgrades too, captain leadership for all units is good so should be saved for larger games, this stays in character.

Librarian now has a level of psychic goodness back adding to flexibilty and so on of characters and other tactics e.g vet serg with power fist in same squad, cast 'might of heros' for a potential 7 attacks on charge :eek: , not many people expect that!

In sum, your correct, and thankyou for inflaming my passion on this subject again 'RAARGH'

Faust
15-04-2005, 18:31
I must be hearing this wrong, are you complaining about Chaplins being over powered?
Over powered against Masters and Librarians? I must inquire as to what edition you are playing?
Let explain my argument
Commanders/Masters
Same as before, a large amount of attacks for Space Marine Characters
Battle Rites: A sizable increase in tactical ability extending the Masters Leadership to everyone else on the battle field. LD 10 is nothing to sneeze at
New Items that can be given to him to increaes his survivability
Librarians
Codicer/Espitolary(sp?)
Two levels now, including the almighty leadership 10 (Note that with master on the table it does increase the librarians leadership to 10, but NOT for pyshic tests). This was a huge step making librarians rightly feared.
A new host of pyshic powers, need I mention Viel of Time, or Fury of the Ancients?
They now recieve a 'free' pyshic hood. ( Note this is with the old Marine codex as in adding a force weapon to the base cost). Also a extra wound included.
Familiar? Nice little addition
Chaplin
Rites of Hatred: neat little imput for him, but only useful on the charge
Confers fearless on squad he is with: a bit of an underlying problem with this, as the higher leadership Chaplin, is a waste of points par the +1 wound and +1 leadership, as they both are fearless.

I would have to say in oder of power it goes
Librarians
Masters/Commanders
Chaplins

As a second Commander perhaps a Chaplin, but as the times are now I would always take a Codicer( high ranking Librarian, no codex ahnddy at moment sorry for spelling mistakes). It makes every other psyker on the board need a 50/50 chance of getting a pyshic power off if that.

Faust

Tom
15-04-2005, 18:47
Chaplains are amoredirect-ability model, however. You seewhat they do, and it's very obvious that they're doing it, hence their wider appeal. The captain and librarian both have more subtle abilities, although in some ways far more useful ones. people tend to go for thingswhaere they can see the effects over the more abstract versions.

I have all three myself.

Rabid Bunny 666
15-04-2005, 19:17
i have a model for each in my DIY army, but i norm,ally use the lightning claw chgaplain to boost the combat part of my shooty army

in my templars, its gonna be a marshall and the emperors champion, because they are overly used

i think that they are overly used because of 3rd edition, where they were points for value

Guilliman
15-04-2005, 20:21
The new battle rites rule that makes all SM commanders give their Ld to every SM unit on the battlefield is added because to many people used chaplains as generals in the last edition. Maybe people just hasn't realized the advantage of that yet.

Steel Rabbit
15-04-2005, 20:48
While I do agree with the opinions expressed in regards to the Chaplain, I, also, see every Space Marine army being led by a Chaplain. I work at a GW and during vets' night the oodles of people that play marines 9/10 of them have Chaplains. Personally, my Dark Angels are led by a Librarian, thankyouverymuch! They're the NEW Chaplain :)

Brother Munro
15-04-2005, 21:05
I had to point out to one person I played that a space marines company doesn't have TWO chaplins!

No they don't except the Ultramarines 1st Company for some reason, probably 'cos they are just that pure :D

Jmitchell
15-04-2005, 21:08
Right on! Librarians are just 'supoib' and i would advise them over chaplins anyday. But still in also notice a torrent of chaplins being used on vets nights, probably because their advantages are much more obvious and don't involve the subtlties of the other HQ choices to use them to their full effect.

In short combat, a brutal but simple affair.

Jmitchell
15-04-2005, 21:10
Re: Munros post.

Whoops! I shall apologise to said person asap, but still have to agree, wheres the fun in two chaplins?

mattjgilbert
15-04-2005, 21:32
I think the ability of commanders/masters to boost the Ld of the rest of the army is a much overlooked ability. The only way units get a better Ld otherwise is to attach an IC (librarian, chaplain or commander), directly to that unit.

Bearing this rule in mind (that only ICs can boost the Ld of a squad, not 'normal' characters) and Fear of the Darkness becomes a nasty power to use in the middle of a load of mid-to-low Ld enemy troops. Your opponent will not think it so subtle when half his army begins to fall back! :) The other Librarian powers are also great if used well and in the right situations.

Chaplains are an obvious HQ choice while the SM codex is still fairly new. As people experiment and get to grips with the other characters, I think this will change.

....just wait until the single HQ choice, chaplain/librarian combos come out!!

HalberdBlue
15-04-2005, 22:12
The other day my friend fielded the dreaded 6-HQ-Choice-For-2 army yesterday. 6 3 wound characters in a 1500 point was not pretty. It was pretty much his whole army, but it was still not pretty.

mattjgilbert
15-04-2005, 22:16
The other day my friend fielded the dreaded 6-HQ-Choice-For-2 army yesterday. 6 3 wound characters in a 1500 point was not pretty. It was pretty much his whole army, but it was still not pretty.

LOL I bet it was! I bet he only managed to just squeeze in his two Troop choices for the points :D

Rabid Bunny 666
15-04-2005, 22:30
well, meltaguns and lascannons solve that lil problem as out of these 6 characters, if 2 were chaplains, 2 were force commanders and 2 were librarians, only 4 could have invbunerable saves, and they gotta fail them sometime...

Bruen
15-04-2005, 22:37
The thing is though, how many really key squads does an army have?

The choice is to take a commander and make your entire army slightly better or take two chaplains and make your 2 really key units fearless.

In my experience most Marine armies only have a couple of key assault units so it makes more sense for them to take chaplains to make them Fearless, even leaving aside the extra HtH punch that the chaplain gives.

This goes double for BA of course.

The rest of the army is either vehicles or min/maxed shooty squads who can take care of themselves for the most part.

twisted_mentat
15-04-2005, 22:46
I think alot of marine players are still in the "assult squad delivery system" army frame of mine. Taking just the bare minimum in Troops to make their army legal, while pumping all their points into a tricked out chaplian and assult squad...And the Chaplian does make sense for that kind of one trick pony army.

I personaly ALWAYS take a master + command squad...I even did that in 3rd ed....really, i'm just playing the same army that i always did...but now they're winning.

As was said, i think as more and more people get used to the new rules and marine codex, we'll start seeing more and more diffearnt makeups of marine armies....I know next time i field one, i'll be having a master, full command squad with a librarian...

Rabid Bunny 666
15-04-2005, 22:47
my DIY army consists of one assault unit, if this goes, my lads don't stand much of a chance

its a vet squad with a vet sarge with a power weapon, one vet with a power weapon, one with a power fist and 2 generic guys accompanying the claplain

chaplain gets 3 attacks basic, +1 for termi honours, +for 2 lightning claws, + for charging = 6 attacks, average hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s, re rolling to hit an wound at initiative 5

the vet sarge and vet with furious charge are initiative and strenght 5 with 7 attacks between them, so need an average of 4s to hit and 3s to wound, re rolling to hit, followed by the two generic guys and then a power fist to clean up or take out big stuff

this is the only unit with power weapons in my army and it deals out pain if used correctly, which is normally counter attacking the enemy if they get too close to my firing line before gutting the centre of their charge and working my way through their units, normally taking 2 or 3 casualties by the second or third unit.

they are fearless, but very rarely lose combat because of the casualties they cause.

beardy, but it works out the unbalance in my shooty list

Gaebriel
15-04-2005, 23:50
I personally take Commanders, as I think there should always be an officer in charge. That is a fluff decision, and I don't necessarily treat the Commander "Captain" as a Captain - he might as well be a very experienced Veteran Sergeant.

I rarely field Chaplains and Librarians, and would do this only as a second HQ choice.

And a Chaplain would be a bit of a waste, as I don't like assaults. I know assaults are incredibly strong in 40k, but it's not in my book of fluffy combat techniques. Counter-assault, yes, assault as a last resort, well, but I rarely take more than one close combat capable unit.

That's what I think makes Chaplains so strong in most person's eyes - a strong assault army will usually have an advantage, and as been said, Chaplains are the directest close combat asset.

Tom
16-04-2005, 01:34
Certainly, there does actually seem to be a trend away from chaplains now, I've seen a lot more instances of Commanders leading armies (Just finished painting mine). Certainly for most of third edition though chaplains were the ONLY space marine HQ.

And if you dare remove his Crozius for a different weapon you lose any respect in my books. Same with Librarians and their force weapons.

Rabid Bunny 666
16-04-2005, 01:43
but i'm gonna tie it in with my fluff (when i get round to writing it) and because the assault part of my army was lacking, the commander died to mass numbers of enemies because of fumbled attacks and the librarian was only ever good at cracking open characters, and the chaplain is what i needed: an infantry killer

JP/AT
16-04-2005, 02:05
No they don't except the Ultramarines 1st Company for some reason, probably 'cos they are just that pure :D

We have? :)

If you are thinking the following...

Chaplain Clausel is the Chaplain of the 4th (Ref - Story about Agemman and Terminators)...
Chaplain Cassius is not the 1st Co Chaplain he is Master of Sanctity.
And that leaves our unknown 1st Co Chaplain :)

Amas Nagol
16-04-2005, 06:15
Chaplains are still the most points effective HQ's. That's why they get used so regularily.

Ouroboros
16-04-2005, 08:46
I'm seeing a lot of them to. I blame the 3rd wound and the re-roll thing. Seriously did he really need both of these things to make him better, plus fearlessness? Chappy's were already one of the most useful HQs in the old book. I don't think anyone ever complained that they needed to be beefed up.

Killgore
16-04-2005, 21:13
I lead my army with characters that I like the look off- points effectivness doesn't mean alot to me


I totaly agree that Chaplains are the best HQ choice, with their beardie re-roll hit/ fearless thing and the free kit!


I have a Commander with a POWERFIST! and a stormbolter, he looks cool, thats why i use him (i also got a Libarian, I like to use him as well)

Wild_Osiris
16-04-2005, 21:13
Well in my opinion Chaps are the most point productive leader for the marines. I really think now that gw has included weapons and wargear with the cost Chaps have become really good. Notice that u can only get one 4+ inv save in the army without him and maybe not that if u have the right drawback. I play blood ravens and I try to stay on the fluff of things. I take (dare I say it) a company captain! Though I really believe that he isnt as useful. Because for the 60 points I can put 4 v. sergeants in my army rising my ld to 9 for shooting (marines have and they shall no none! So i dont worry about combat my marines will be back) Usually I try to take a librarian in the mix for fluff and extra punch. The only prob with librarians is u pay thru the nose for them. For them to take 2 powers, a bp or plasmapistol, termie honours, is a big point sink I never get away without paying 150pt. When it comes to the chap I may put him in terminator armor and says that it.

Tom
16-04-2005, 21:16
1: it's you. 'u' is the twenty-first letter of the alphabet, and has no meaning when used on its own.

The Ultramarines 1st Company has two chaplains according to the chapter organisation in the 3rd Edition codex, they're both dead now anyway.

boogle
16-04-2005, 22:14
well, meltaguns and lascannons solve that lil problem as out of these 6 characters, if 2 were chaplains, 2 were force commanders and 2 were librarians, only 4 could have invbunerable saves, and they gotta fail them sometime...
actually, they can all have CC Invulnerable Saves if that all take Combat Shields, plus they have 18 Ablative wounds to get them inot CC, if you max out the Command squads as well

Rabid Bunny 666
17-04-2005, 00:36
but one ordnance template is all it takes

scopedog91
17-04-2005, 15:25
Sick of Chaplains?

I am sick of Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants, Warbosses...and the list goes on and on and on...
Yes, people do overuse them. People tend to make up for a percieved weakness with some shiny new HQ when the codex comes out. So, there are a lot of Chaplains out there and... so what?

Chappies do give some nice toys for the point value, and I think they will have their moment in the sun.

So just wait, people will rediscover the other HQ types.
Personnally, I prefer the Commanders. Nice to have the high LD...