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knightime98
24-12-2007, 18:25
So, I am playing a game where my opponent makes 3 unbelievable insane courage rolls in a row. I whittled his unit down to like 4 models. The next combat , I am able to kill 3 in combat. He leaves the champion by himself. Now, he blows his break test after the 4th test. The question is, do I get the standard for victory points?

Your thoughts and sources for info.... Thanks

Malorian
24-12-2007, 18:29
As far as I know you don't get the banner.

Just like if you kill the whole unit, you need to run the banner down to get it.

DarthBinky
24-12-2007, 18:35
Just like if you kill the whole unit, you need to run the banner down to get it.
Actually, per page 80 of the BRB, you get the banner for destroying the unit in HTH, or if the unit flees (regardless of whether or not you catch them- but you do have to pursue them).

As for this scenario, I can't decide- I could see both sides at this time.

Malorian
24-12-2007, 18:41
I know if you break from combat you lose the benner, but I'm fairly sure your opponent doesn't get it unless they catch you.

Could you give a quote?

DarthBinky
24-12-2007, 18:44
Page 80, like I just said. It explicitly states that you don't have to catch them, you just have to pursue. I'm not going to type out the exact wording because I'm about to leave and don't have time.

And you don't automatically lose the banner if you flee. You have to be pursued. It also mentions that fleeing for Psychology reasons (such as Terror) don't cause you to lose your banner.

knightime98
24-12-2007, 18:49
The fact is that the model that is the banner bearer was removed as a casualty before the break test was taken. So, there is no banner for the unit anymore. He pulled a quick one on me. The question is - since the banner was taken as a casualty and no longer a part of the unit - do you still get to "capture" it as you have killed him in combat.

For further interest, the single remaining model champion did break and was caught by my pursuers.

lparigi34
24-12-2007, 19:05
IMO it is as easy to take a banner from the corpse lying on the ground as is to grab it from someone who decided to drop it since it bothered too much when running from someone.

So in this case, I'd allow the banner to be captured. And I'd allow it even if it was "dropped" (the guy killed) in a previous CC phase. The rules do not say anything about everything happening in the same turn, but this may be argued.

Ganymede
24-12-2007, 19:15
And you don't automatically lose the banner if you flee. You have to be pursued. It also mentions that fleeing for Psychology reasons (such as Terror) don't cause you to lose your banner.

This is not entirely accurate. You simply have to break from combat to lose your banner. Even if your foe neglects to pursue you, your banner is still gone.

lparigi34
24-12-2007, 19:37
This is not entirely accurate. You simply have to break from combat to lose your banner. Even if your foe neglects to pursue you, your banner is still gone.

Actually, gone but not captured...

I've never seen anyone playing it like this... I guess that my fellow gamers and I we all suffer from rules hangover and still play it the 6th Ed way... Dumb us!

:rolleyes:

Ganymede
24-12-2007, 21:28
Yes, Gone but not captured.

The rules were that way in 6th edition too. If you broke, you lost the banner.

T10
25-12-2007, 12:47
He leaves the champion by himself. Now, he blows his break test after the 4th test. The question is, do I get the standard for victory points?


The rules fail to take into account the situation that the command group casualties can be substituted for ordinary trooper models.

Sure, the champion can be targeted specifically, but the only rule that forces him to be removed as a casualty is if the entire contingent of rank-and-file models are slain. This seems to indicate that the champion should be the last rank-and-file model to be removed.

Note, however, that there is nothing in the rules to say that the standard bearer, musician and champion need be three different models.

As far as I can tell: If a unit with a full command group is reduced to a single model - the champion - he is, as an ordinary trooper, required to pick up both the standard and the musician's instruments.

This means that even with only the champion or a regular trooper left alive the unit still retains a standard and may use it or lose it as normal.

-T10

kroq'gar
25-12-2007, 12:56
I always thought the banner could be removed as a casualty when the ordinary rank and file models were killed. A banner can be captured in the same turn as the banner bearer dying provided that his units breaks.

the idea of a champ with the musician and banner included? I dont think so... as you have to remove the 'one model' upgraded to the respective command model.

knightime98
26-12-2007, 05:32
T10 - I would have to disagree with you on one model being the entire command group.

Certainly, almost all army books have entries to upgrade (single models EACH) to either a champion, standard, or musician. Then you have to pay the respective points. I understand the philosophy behind your argument however, I believe it falls short of your point.

For the situation that I was in, I believe that I was entitled to the victory points for the banner. The standard was a casualty AND the same unit broke within the same Close combat phase then subsequently was caught and destroyed. The argument that my opponent presented was that the unit did not have a standard as it was a casualty therefore, it was not available for me to "capture".... I thought it was lame that I could kill the model but not capture it siting the reason, now several times.

Festus
26-12-2007, 09:14
I always thought the banner could be removed as a casualty when the ordinary rank and file models were killed. A banner can be captured in the same turn as the banner bearer dying provided that his units breaks - or is completely wiped out.FYP.

That is the procedure, actually.
If the lone champion held again, then the banner could not've been captured in the next combat phase as it was already lost and trampled underfoot. But in the case described by the OT, the banner was captured if the unit pursuited (and not necessarily caught the fleeing unit),

the idea of a champ with the musician and banner included? I dont think so... as you have to remove the 'one model' upgraded to the respective command model
This is correct as well, different models must be upgrades to S, M, and C respetively. They cannot be rolled into one.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
26-12-2007, 13:08
This is more a question of how it is commonly played rather than having rules that backs it up.

A) The player controlling the command group has the choice of nominating a casualty if it has to be from the Command group - not a rule but commonly played this way.

However, I prefer to introduce this rule as well which I feel fits in better than its alternative.

B) If the standard exists at the very start of combat (not just the current combat round), then it can be captured; even if the Standard bearer has been forceably slain (by magic, Skaven shooting or even combat) *before the round* when his unit is destroyed or pursued after breaking.

As Iparigi said, it is easy to pick up the Standard from a corpse.

One proviso - If the Standard itself and not the bearer has been destroyed, then it cannot be captured.
Does anyone here who does not categorise a Standard as Equipment?

Gazak Blacktoof
26-12-2007, 13:24
It would be simplest to apply the rules for BSBs on page 83 because they cover the situation desribed.

Borthcollective
26-12-2007, 15:12
This all sounds good except it says, on page 80, that it is assumed that if the standard bearer is killed, another warrior will pick up the banner and take his place. So what if you choose to kill your standard bearer. The rules say another person will pick up the banner.

Gazak Blacktoof
26-12-2007, 15:38
The point being made is that it is normal for the standard, musician and champion to be separatre models. As T10 points out there isn't a rule precluding the champion from picking up the equipment items but most players regard them as mutually exclusive ie if there are no rank and file left there is no body left to pick up the musician or SB's equipment.


I wouldn't have a problem with the champ picking up the stadard and/ or the musician's equipment if that was how my opponenet felt it should be played but as I said before the alternative is the rules on P83 that cover the BSB.

Borthcollective
26-12-2007, 16:17
Pg 80 also says "Remember that even if they have special rules, they are otherwise rank-and-file troopers in all respects. So as unfounded as it is for T10 to be correct 8), it seems that the champion can also be the musician, and standard bearer, even though there might be some grey area as to if the champion should be pulled off before the standard.

Makaiju
26-12-2007, 16:38
I think Gaz and Borth both have it right.

If the stand barer dies, another model in the unit picks up the standard and the unit gets the keep the effect of having a banner. Page 80, BrB.

So by the original posters own description:
CC happens against 4 models where 1 is a standard barer. During the CC 3 models die. (All but the champion.) The champion then breaks and is pursued. That all happens in 1 phase/turn of combat. So at the start of combat there is a banner and at the end of combat that 4 model unit has lost its standard and is running away… and pursued.

If the winning unit chose ‘not’ to pursue, then I could see some arguing of the wording.

Per page 80 (for regular standard) and 83 (for battle standard) say that all a unit has to do is pursue. They do not even have to catch the fleeing unit.

Page 80 also says the standard is captured if the entire unit is killed in CC and thus there is no reason to pursue.

You can argue that the Standard Barer was killed in Hand to Hand combat or that it was part of a fleeing unit... both say that the standard was captured.

The shadow text (meaning un-written words) your opponent is trying to find/invent, is that the champion isn’t a regular unit member but is treated like a regular unit member.

Detail: page 81 says how a champion is different then a regular unit model. A champion is never hit by combat unless the attacking player designates hits against the champion. This is because a champion is a character just like a hero model… only much weaker. Weak or not, a champion is treated like a hero for allocating attacks and can even be used to accept or issue challenges.

However a champion is not a hero… it’s a unit model that was upgraded. So here is the mixing of rules your opponent is doing. “My champion is not a regular unit model so he can’t pick up the standard that was dropped in hand to hand combat by the regular standard barer. Being a character model, and in turn not able to pick up a standard, means there was no dropping of the standard as the unit/model ran. However my character was part of a unit so killing all other models and only leaving the champion means you did not wipe out the unit in close combat.”

What he’s thinking just isn’t written any where.

Instead you beat a unit, that unit broke, and you pursued that unit all in one CC turn. So you now have yourself a captured standard.

IF that champion has managed to make his leadership role and stand ground, then you could start to argue that the Standard was lost in the last CC turn. However since the last models in the unit dieing and the Champion fleeing all happened in the same turn, I can’t see how the guy doesn’t think he’s standard was taken.

knightime98
27-12-2007, 08:18
Well put and it's what I was looking for...

I thought it was just me..

This guy was simply looking for a way to save victory points...

The battle ended in a draw and the extra 100 points would have NOT made any difference in the outcome. It was a dead heat by the end of the battle. It was 50 points difference in a 4000 pt battle.

DeathlessDraich
27-12-2007, 12:23
I wouldn't have a problem with the champ picking up the stadard and/ or the musician's equipment.

The Musician's eqpt can never be picked up according to the rules.

Your method of using the BSB rules as precedence could work except the rules forbid it unfortunately.
pg 83 "follows the rules for capturing standards pg 80 *with the following exceptions*" Therefore treating the 2 sets of rules *identically* is not right.

However, I agree with you in using the BSB's rules as clarification.**


Pg 80 also says "Remember that even if they have special rules, they are otherwise rank-and-file troopers in all respects..

The rules uses the term 'ordinary warrior' and 'ordinary model' to distinguish between the Command group and the other RnF models.
Only 'ordinary warriors' may pick up the standard.


So as unfounded as it is for T10 to be correct 8), it seems that the champion can also be the musician, and standard bearer, even though there might be some grey area as to if the champion should be pulled off before the standard.

In some circumstances e.g. Giant Slayers, Grail Knights, champions could be the Std Bearer but the rules do not state that when one of the Command group is slain another *from the Command group* replaces him. The rules point the other way.

It would be an unfair to allow a champion or Musician to pick up the fallen Standard because:

Everytime a unit is reduced to one model, that model benefits from being the champion (strikes back), Standard bearer (+1 CR) and Musician (+1 for drawn CR and +1 to rally).

No player in his right mind would accept this. The last model in a unit in combat cannot be all 3 but only one of the Command group.

**This is different from capturing a standard, which has a solution, thanks to Gazak:

Considering
The BSB rule, "if he is slain but his unit does not break ... battle standard ... cannot be captured"..

Since this BSB rule is an exception (stated on pg 83) to the *capturing standards rules*, therefore the opposite is true for a Standard.

i.e. If the Standard bearer is slain, the standard *can* still be captured in future rounds

This ties in with the rules of ordinary warriors picking up the Standard. The Standard bearer can only be slain when there are no 'ordinary warriors' left. Once he is slain no friendly model can pick the standard up or remove it from the battlefield.

Makaiju
27-12-2007, 13:09
...i.e. If the Standard bearer is slain, the standard *can* still be captured in future rounds

This ties in with the rules of ordinary warriors picking up the Standard. The Standard bearer can only be slain when there are no 'ordinary warriors' left. Once he is slain no friendly model can pick the standard up or remove it from the battlefield.

I can agree with you if the chamption had stood his ground and not fleed. I'm not sure I want to agree and would probably talk to my regular gaming group and come to a group concensus but over all, if we are just talking about the wording of the rules and how they affect the battle in question, I don't see why this guy didn't capture the standard.

The BrB does list 2 ways to capture a standard. Break/pursue or kill them all in CC.

Page 32 lists out the stages of CC. They consist of "fight combat, combat results, break tests, flee&pursue, redress ranks." Doing all of that in order is a CC round. So if at the end of all that you find you have wiped out an enemy unit, then you can and should have captured the standard. (Because you killed the entire unit in CC.)

The 'there are no ordinary warriors' comment you are using in reference to the BSB rules... ok, that needs clarification. The BSB rules do say that if the BSB is slain and the unit survies the end of the CC turn in tack and not fleeing, then the Battle Standard is removed from the game. (lost and not captureable.)

However if the BSB is slain and in that same turn the rest of the unit is slain or the unit flees and the opponent pursues, the Battle Standard is captured.

So I'm not disagreeing that a champion shouldn't be able to pick up the standard. (That's not stated in the rules as a yes or no so I leave that up to individual gaming groups to decide.) I'm saying based off of the way the last turn of that units combat went, the standard was captured. It doesn't matter if you say the Champion picked up the standard or that the standard barer was slain and dropped the standard in that cc phase. Either way the rules support the standard being taken.

Borthcollective
27-12-2007, 13:54
The rules uses the term 'ordinary warrior' and 'ordinary model' to distinguish between the Command group and the other RnF models.
Only 'ordinary warriors' may pick up the standard.

Weird the word ordinary was not used at all in my direct quote.

Also the rules don't say when the unit has to be destroyed in combat. It says destroyed, or flees and is pursued. Therefore unit destroyed, standard captured, unit flees and is pursued, standard captured. I don't see where the argument is.

Gazak Blacktoof
27-12-2007, 13:55
Either way the rules support the standard being taken.

That's what I'd go with too. Trying to get away without giving up VPs for a standard in these circumstances seems very wrong. The standard bearer got killed, the unit got its **** kicked and legged it, and their opponents pursued.

DeathlessDraich
27-12-2007, 15:53
The 'there are no ordinary warriors' comment you are using in reference to the BSB rules... .


Weird the word ordinary was not used at all in my direct quote.
.

The phrase is used at least 3 times in the Command groups chapter.

Makaiju
27-12-2007, 16:06
There are other page refrences too that don't say ordinary warrior and descrptions of chapions that call them regular unit models... but before we get into that I would like to ask you, DeathlessDraich, are you still saying that you believe the standard was not captured? or are you suggesting the Standard my be lost in other games if the champion survies the leadership role and fights another round as the sole model in the unit?