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Mercules
26-12-2007, 17:53
So I am getting tired of being picked apart by range and magic for 3-4 turns and hoping I can get set up in the right position to do some major damage. Because of this I decided to find a way to make other armies duck for cover from time to time as I advance on them. No, I did not find a way to make a gunline OK army(horrible thought) and yes, I do want to close the gap and CC and found a way to shoot back.

The List:
Tyrant @ 306 Gen HV, LGnob
-Tenderizer
-Gnoblar Thiefstone x2
-Fistful of Laurels

Butcher @ 180
-Dispel Scroll
-Halfling Cookbook

Butcher @ 175 LGnob
-Skullmantle
-Wyrdstone Necklace

Butcher @ 175 LGnob
-Bangstick
-Talisman of Protection

Bulls x3 @ 115 Mus

Bulls x3 @ 115 Mus

Ironguts x3 @ 154 Mus

Ironguts X3 @ 199 Mus SB
-War Banner

Gnoblar Fighters x20 @ 40

Maneaters x3 @ 270
-Brace of Handguns x3

Maneaters x3 @ 270
-Brace of Handguns x3

Total 1999/2000 points
Casting: 8
Dispel: 5
#Models: 52


Most of this plays out as standard OK tactics trying to get into CC and using Ironguts as the hammer and trying to set up flanking to remove rank bonus. The difference is that instead of a Scraplauncher, Gorgers, or Leadbelchers to eliminate certain targets or as distractions I have 6 Maneaters moving forward 6" every turn and firing out 12 shots at 24" range needing a 4 to hit in most cases. It isn't a lot of firepower, but it seems to be unexpected from an OK army.

I have 4 core units heroes can be placed in and 4 heroes. Which unit gets what depends on the deployment phase and what my opponent brings. It's likely that 2 of those Butchers will be running around alone unless there is a huge threat to them.

I know the Maneaters are expensive. I know they are not using GWs but I believe the 5 attacks at Str 5 is comparable to the 3 at Str 6 Ironguts get and they are HARD to break and will much normal troops in close. Hopefully they whittle down more elite troops that come after them.

Thoughts? Questions?

BattleofLund
27-12-2007, 00:13
Your shooting will, at most, panic away some light cav. Yes, nice range and unexpected, but largely insignificant.

I'm not a big fan of spares/doppelgangers. But that's just me.

Jack of Blades
27-12-2007, 00:28
Huh? you call this shooting?

Take out the ironguts and add in a pair of bull units in their places and take out the maneaters. The amount of shooting in in this ''shooty'' list is outright pathetic, add in leadbelchers for the points you get. You might want to drop a Butcher to get another unit of Leadbelchers in.

kroq'gar
27-12-2007, 00:51
Your shooting wont really kill anything (especially warmachines), so you'll get torn to shreds by any return fire.

Take some leadbelchers or, a bunch load of gnoblars and try throwing sharpstuff as a charge reaction with a massive frontage.

Mercules
27-12-2007, 11:03
So the reaction is, "Just make it like every other list."

Str 4 armor piercing shots
Range 24"
Can move and shoot with no penalty
No long range penalty
2x shots
Yes I only have 6 models doing such, but they are advancing continuously the entire time moving into charge range even as the rest of my army advances.

wildkarrde0
27-12-2007, 12:21
ok to make it more themed then take some hunters rather than the tyrant and mages and if it is a shooty list you got top have lead bealchers they are a great unit.

Kadrium
27-12-2007, 14:43
With mediocre BS, and not too many shots fired every round, your Maneaters won't hit much, and won't kill much.

Aside from that, it's not actually a bad list.

Your tyran't doesn't need the thiefstones. You have 3 butchers. Generally with the thiefstones, they stop one spell and then your opponent simply concentrates his spells elsewhere for the rest of the game. Not worth the points.

Drop the wyrdstone necklace and the amulet of protection from your butchers. Give the Wyrdstone to your Tyrant. Your butchers can bloodgruel for getting wounds back, and your tyrant can't. The 6+ ward isn't much use anyway. Replace those items with dispel scrolls, and you've got replacement magic protection for the thiefstones you dropped.

Mercules
27-12-2007, 15:58
With mediocre BS, and not too many shots fired every round, your Maneaters won't hit much, and won't kill much.

BS 4
One unit using the multiple shots will throw out 6 shots half of which will hit. Yes I know it is only 3 hits. Str 4 against many of the Toughness 3 models out there we are talking 2 wounds at -2 to their armor save so hopefully 2 wounds. I know(I've tried them in a battle) they won't kill much each turn, but most of my opponents' tactics are to whittle my ogres away so when I can CC I am at a further disadvantage. I am just returning the favor and they get rid of Skaven Weapon crews(major problem in the local scene), force casters to move inside units(allowing me to better tie them up in CC and limiting their LoS) Oh, and they give me 15 Str 5 attacks once those Maneaters are in CC.



Aside from that, it's not actually a bad list.
That is better than anyone else has said, and I appreciate your feedback, it is well presented.



Your tyran't doesn't need the thiefstones. You have 3 butchers. Generally with the thiefstones, they stop one spell and then your opponent simply concentrates his spells elsewhere for the rest of the game. Not worth the points.

True, but the point of the thiefstones for me is so that he does focus his spells elsewhere. Best scenario is for me to offer only this unit as a target for spells but I have no illusions of that happening. I face several Skaven SAD lists around here and I am often facing multiple Warp Lightnings and a Storm Daemon and I hate to say it but 5 Dispel dice doesn't cut it against those lists.



Drop the wyrdstone necklace and the amulet of protection from your butchers. Give the Wyrdstone to your Tyrant. Your butchers can bloodgruel for getting wounds back, and your tyrant can't. The 6+ ward isn't much use anyway. Replace those items with dispel scrolls, and you've got replacement magic protection for the thiefstones you dropped.

I know the butchers can replace their own wounds, but I tend to cast a lot to burn up their dispel dice and I like things like Bonecruncher, Toothcracker, and Trollguts. I can return one wound to a Butcher per turn(If I don't wound myself) and so the fewer wounds I take the more likely my Butchers survive and remain above 1/2 stength. Any shooting tends to end up killing my Butchers and it is not like I can hide them in a unit of 3 ogres. I know the 6+ ward is fairly crappy, but it is still a 1 in 6 chance that doesn't go away that I might not take damage.

On a side note, I HATE Dispel Scrolls in their current incarnation and think they need to change somehow. They are far too good for their points. I know they are useful to being competitive but if I can avoid taking 1 or 2 per mage in my army list I will.

Mercules
27-12-2007, 16:14
ok to make it more themed then take some hunters rather than the tyrant and mages and if it is a shooty list you got top have lead bealchers they are a great unit.

My Experience with Leadbelchers has been rather poor. Usually it is a large flash in the pan, 1-2 of his models dies and one of my Leadbelchers dies. That is about all the shooting they do in the game. At best I run them in a unit of 2 with a Bellower as one and "threaten" with them more than anything a useful tactic but I can't rely on them when I have to actually kill something at range(and 18" including the move is not that great of range).

My Hunter has also done poorly shooting, usually he is best reserved for CC with his Sabers hitting from a flank and then letting the Sabers run down the unit if they break. Slightly expensive and I need the magical defense/offense against a lot of the lists I face locally.

Malorian
27-12-2007, 16:21
I don't like leadbletchers. As has been said they usually hurt them selves more than the opponent. That being said they are also the best thing ogres have for taking out pesky flankers and units that sneak behind your lines.

My hunter has also always disappointed me... but he's fun and sometimes does something... (I find he's worth it just for the sabretusks)

The shooty maneaters are great. Just becareful to keep them safe and use them properly. I just wish they could get pistols and a greatweapon...

Mercules
27-12-2007, 16:55
The shooty maneaters are great. Just becareful to keep them safe and use them properly. I just wish they could get pistols and a greatweapon...

You and me both. That would definitely make them worth the points invested. 5 Str 5 attacks will do though and I find that even 2 of them against most fully ranked up core units tend to eventually attrition them to death, especially if I can get a Trollguts on the Maneaters and keep it there.

Jack of Blades
27-12-2007, 17:28
With mediocre BS, and not too many shots fired every round, your Maneaters won't hit much, and won't kill much.

Aside from that, it's not actually a bad list.

Your tyran't doesn't need the thiefstones. You have 3 butchers. Generally with the thiefstones, they stop one spell and then your opponent simply concentrates his spells elsewhere for the rest of the game. Not worth the points.

Drop the wyrdstone necklace and the amulet of protection from your butchers. Give the Wyrdstone to your Tyrant. Your butchers can bloodgruel for getting wounds back, and your tyrant can't. The 6+ ward isn't much use anyway. Replace those items with dispel scrolls, and you've got replacement magic protection for the thiefstones you dropped.

I'd advice against protective equipment (*cough* Wyrdstone Necklace) on all the characters but especially on Tyrants. You want to paste things, not let them strike back, and there's practically nothing that can kill your Tyrant in a round of CC anyway, Hand of Dust, Blood Dragon on Dragon with Cursed Book and Daemon Princes with Flaming Sword of Rhuin being noteable exceptions, but generally, this is unecessary.


Aside from that, I didn't make it like every other list... I just figured that you'd want Leadbelchers in a shooty list. 6 Maneaters will take up a bit over 1/4 of your army and put out 12 Str4 AP shots per turn that hit on 4+. At most, you'll have 5 or 6 kills. Just not worth it, take Leadbelchers instead.

Though if you really want the Maneaters, expand to 2500 and add in units of Leadbelchers. You can't call this list shooty.

Mordante
27-12-2007, 20:18
I like the list, but to call it shooty, it should really have more shooting. OK, leadbelchers are not that great, but are great flank protection. What about a scraplauncher. When mine doesn't blow itself up, it is usually my start player.

That reminds me of the most shooty list I've ever seen, owned by our local store owner.
Bruiser with guns, 3 hunters, 4 scraplaunchers, 4 trapper units, min required bulls, and maneaters with pistols. Ouch!

Mercules
27-12-2007, 20:47
Aside from that, I didn't make it like every other list... I just figured that you'd want Leadbelchers in a shooty list. 6 Maneaters will take up a bit over 1/4 of your army and put out 12 Str4 AP shots per turn that hit on 4+. At most, you'll have 5 or 6 kills. Just not worth it, take Leadbelchers instead.

Though if you really want the Maneaters, expand to 2500 and add in units of Leadbelchers. You can't call this list shooty.

You can't with Leadbelchers either. What you basically have is about 6 shots average per Leadbelcher if I am calculating that correctly with the Misfire result. They can fire every other turn if they just stand there, 12" away from the enemy they are shooting at.:p So I get 2 every turn per model with a higher BS and 24" range and I can move and shoot EVERY turn. I pay for it in points though.

Mercules
27-12-2007, 20:51
I like the list, but to call it shooty, it should really have more shooting. OK, leadbelchers are not that great, but are great flank protection. What about a scraplauncher. When mine doesn't blow itself up, it is usually my start player.

That reminds me of the most shooty list I've ever seen, owned by our local store owner.
Bruiser with guns, 3 hunters, 4 scraplaunchers, 4 trapper units, min required bulls, and maneaters with pistols. Ouch!

I've got the scraplauncher, and aside from the difficulties in assembling it(and I have great spatial awareness and solve 2D/3D puzzles well, it seems like a manual dexterity puzzle) the times I have proxied it it did seem to work O. K. but not great. I killed 2 High Elf Spearman with a solid hit on the unit. Woooo??? I guess after WH40K I expected more from a large template weapon? :)