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View Full Version : The end of the craftworld kaelor from the book:Eldar Prophecy



heinrichvoncarstein
26-12-2007, 22:56
I never really got what happened to kaelor. Did it vanish in the maelstorm or did it survive?

Shinzui
27-12-2007, 00:55
A Space Marine back flipped off his jetbike and took it out with a multi-laser.

That is to say if I remember correctly it doesn't say clearly. Guess well wait for the sequel.

Mechanicus
27-12-2007, 09:49
Kaelor is still going to be destroyed at present - it hasn't yet, but despite the civil war, they're still on course because no one thought the Farseer was corrupt. There's a brief follow up to the novel in the Tales of the Dark Millennium book with the short story Tears of Blood, but it doesn't do much. I'm pretty sure there will be a sequel when CS Goto gets time.

Rockerfella
27-12-2007, 10:46
Lets just pray he dosen't get the time, in that case..... *grumbles*

Kage2020
28-12-2007, 03:55
I remain confused as to why Goto's work on Eldar Prophecy is such a pariah when compared against such bastardisations as, say, Spurrier's travesty of writing on Eldar physiology in Xenology. After all, Goto's work has the "excuse" of being yet another "exception of an exception of an exception" craftworld (like all the others), while Xenology hints at something... more general, more widely applicable. :D :eyebrows:

Arguably. ;)

Kage

kikkoman
28-12-2007, 08:03
I remain confused as to why Goto's work on Eldar Prophecy is such a pariah when compared against such bastardisations as, say, Spurrier's travesty of writing on Eldar physiology in Xenology.


the ear fetish

Charax
28-12-2007, 08:12
see, I much prefer Xenology to many BL novels, and I really don't see what people have against it.

C.S Goto: Fluffslayer, is working on something for BL right now, but it's a long way off and we don't know what it is.

Kage2020
28-12-2007, 14:54
Most people don't have anything against Xenology, Charax. In comparison to Goto I find this confusing. As a generic BL novel it's okay but... Ah well. Personal preference is ever dominant. ;)

Kage

Skibbles
28-12-2007, 18:09
Are his books really this bad?

Templar Ben
28-12-2007, 18:20
Depends on who you ask. Goto tends to write Eldar in a very negative light. Guess who most wants to buy a book all about Eldar, people that love Eldar. You see the problem.

Killgore
28-12-2007, 18:59
my father has never played a proper game of 40k in his life, but he loves reading

i feed him the occasional Black Library book and he happily reads them and asks if there was a follow up etc, hes read everything from Storm of Iron to the Gaunt's Ghosts books...

Well me being a Eldar fan bought the Prophecy book by Goto, didnt think much of it then let Dad read it.

Its the only Black Library book hes never finished reading. He said it was terrible and boring and i agree.


unfortunatly craftworld Kaelor hasnt been destroyed yet, i hope it burns quickly.

Mechanicus
28-12-2007, 19:06
It will probably survive - unless Goto ignores his inspiration for the craftworld, that is. Eldar Prophecy takes place in M38 (confirmed by Tears of Blood), and in M41, the craftworld Kaelor and the Farseer Ela Ashbel (with an associate who had advised her for the past two thousand years) take part in the attacks on Chaos in the Pyrus Reach.

The pestilent 1
28-12-2007, 19:32
Are his books really this bad?

No.

Then again, I won't write a fifty two page rant on every detail he gets wrong, including, but not restricted too, describing a Harlequins armour as being the wrong shade of Puce.

RampagingRavener
28-12-2007, 19:53
Are his books really this bad?

Sort of. Not because of the minor liberties he takes with the fluff; no matter if a Space Marine is firing a Multilaser or a Heavy Bolter, the end result is likely the same. I actually quite enjoyed reading his first two Dawn of War novels, but never got round to picking up the third.

But because of the horrible writing and gross bastardisations of the Eldar, he's earned a black mark with many 40k players. Myself included, due to associating both the Eldar and Dark Eldar with actually communicating with Slaanesh.

As for Kaelor, it will be destroyed when a bunch of human children throw rocks in it's engines. ;)

Gensuke626
28-12-2007, 20:32
No.

Then again, I won't write a fifty two page rant on every detail he gets wrong, including, but not restricted too, describing a Harlequins armour as being the wrong shade of Puce.

so we're not going to mention how Goto seems to think that you can destroy a falcon by stuffing rocks into the Pulse Laser's "Barrel" to cause a cartoony explosion?

Edit- Ahh...beaten by a ravener.

Kage2020
28-12-2007, 22:32
I'm sure that we can all find equally problematic bits from many more novels in the BL, erm, library. While I am not a fan of Goto's novels, I can get as many "Oh, that's kind of interesting" moments out of his as I can from practically every other author in the BL stable. This is less a condemnation of the other authors and more the limitations of the novels themselves.

That and if I had the choice of whether to kick Goto or Spurrier in the goolies, it would be Spurrier that gets the "swift kick in the happy sack." :D

Kage

Rockerfella
29-12-2007, 01:16
For me, its not Goto's lack of 40k knowledge that i dislike (althoug it it utterly ridiculous), its that his books lack depth. They lack characters with substance. His books lack consistent continuity and a storyline that attracts and absorbs the reader.

As for what I want out of a 40k book? Goto pretty much isn't it. Regardless of content and storyline, Goto simply doesn't have the writing talent or ability to satisfy my personal reading criteria. See, 'PERSONAL' here...

Thats all I can say really. Sure, he bastardises everything the Eldar stand for and represent, and he clearly knows little of the 40k fluff, but other and apart from this, its his incredibly poor standard of literacy skill and ability that makes me dislike his books.

Read some of his dawn of war stuff... its just....poor.

Cheers.

Ravenous
29-12-2007, 01:42
It will probably survive - unless Goto ignores his inspiration for the craftworld, that is. Eldar Prophecy takes place in M38 (confirmed by Tears of Blood), and in M41, the craftworld Kaelor and the Farseer Ela Ashbel (with an associate who had advised her for the past two thousand years) take part in the attacks on Chaos in the Pyrus Reach.

Exactly, Kaelor can't fall in the books to the civil war because that was long over when the sabertooth fluff was written.

But then again, this IS Goto we are talking about, maybe the same kids that killed a falcon with rocks, killed striking scorpions with sticks, and killed guardians inside a waveserpent by stuffing spears through the vision slits, will steal a cruiser and go blow up kaelor with some pop rocks and cola before any of the GOOD fluff happened.

Or maybe Goto is talking about a different Kaelor :rolleyes:

Kage2020
29-12-2007, 02:01
For me, its not Goto's lack of 40k knowledge that i dislike (althoug it it utterly ridiculous), its that his books lack depth. They lack characters with substance. His books lack consistent continuity and a storyline that attracts and absorbs the reader.
In general, though, I fail to see the difference between these accusations being laid at Goto's feet and, well, all the other authors.

Again, I would argue that it is BL and not Goto. He's just unfortunate enough to have to deal with the Eldar, but when it comes down to it al l the authors pretty much suck. And it's not a lack of talent, but a lack of freedom to actually tell a story.

Give me any of the authors from the BL stable and no manacles? That would be a better BL novel. Until then? The Goto bashing can easily be replaced with a generic "<BL author> bashing" and it would be about the same.

Kage

Templar Ben
29-12-2007, 02:15
Exactly, Kaelor can't fall in the books to the civil war because that was long over when the sabertooth fluff was written.

But then again, this IS Goto we are talking about, maybe the same kids that killed a falcon with rocks, killed striking scorpions with sticks, and killed guardians inside a waveserpent by stuffing spears through the vision slits, will steal a cruiser and go blow up kaelor with some pop rocks and cola before any of the GOOD fluff happened.

Or maybe Goto is talking about a different Kaelor :rolleyes:

Unless they fall into the warp and the people you are talking about pop out and it seems like yesterday.

kikkoman
29-12-2007, 05:07
they should let him write a book about orks

'cause it's orks, I can't... well its hard to imagine to criticize anything freaky happening when it's about orks.

Maybe with wierdboyz and slaanesh.
Or maybe change every instance of 'Eldar' to 'Ork', and have one of the greatest pieces of oddboy literature ever to be conceived.

Taipan
29-12-2007, 07:49
C.S. Goto, on his own merits, needs to at least read the codexes. I have only read an extract of the first part of 'Warrior Brood', but the number of mistakes he makes is astonishing. You would think Astartes formations and weaponry would be simple to understand and write about, but he constantly mixes their weapons/formations with Imperial Guard. 8 heavy weapons (including heavy flamers?) in a single Devastator squad? Multi-lasers in a Veteran squad? Artistic license it may be, but it jars me (along with the other mistakes). His descriptions are visceral, but the detail does detract.

I agree with Kage that the general standard of BL literature is pretty ****-poor, but some are ok. Xenology was actually quite decent i found, and the Eldar section was suitably mysterious/informative at the same time. Spurrier may suck in other novels, but I found Xenology quite a good read (and the pwetty pictures also swayed me somewhat).

Rockerfella
29-12-2007, 10:09
In general, though, I fail to see the difference between these accusations being laid at Goto's feet and, well, all the other authors.

Fair enough. Personally, I do see the difference. The difference is (for me) that every Heresy book i've read has gripped and involved me, throwing engaging characters who possess depth and substance. The same, in my opinion, can't be said of ANY of Gotos work. This is a personal thing.


Again, I would argue that it is BL and not Goto. I wouldn't, because of the above statement. If other writers can adhere to the fluff and tell a good story based on what they're given, why can't Goto?
He's just unfortunate enough to have to deal with the Eldar, but when it comes down to it al l the authors pretty much suck. Again, I disagree. Mcneill dosen't suck, in my opinion.
And it's not a lack of talent, but a lack of freedom to actually tell a story. Well, its is lack of talent. How much freedom does one author need? Gotos has systematically reshaped the entire Eldar background and made a mockery of the established fluff. Now, THATS freedom. Surely you can't have much more freedom than that; to re-write the basic facts of a race in their entirety!


Give me any of the authors from the BL stable and no manacles? That would be a better BL novel. Until then? The Goto bashing can easily be replaced with a generic "<BL author> bashing" and it would be about the same. No, it wouldn't, because regardless of how you feel about the restrictions placed on BL authors, some are still better than others. Goto simply sits at the bottom of the pile, in my opinion. Its irrelevant how many restrictions BL (or resitrictions you seem to think BL put on writers) because if they can write, it still shows.

How can you say Goto has been restricted? Can you imagine what the man would write if had his own way?

I think we just see this from where we stand. If BL told goto that the Eldar have to be pap and worship chaos at every given, and that children can bring down Falcons with rocks, then fair enough. Personally, I don't believe that to be the case. If BL are responsible for Goto's utter, and frankly discraceful representation and rape of the established Eldar fluff, then fair enough, but personally, I don't think they are.

Cheers!

Kage2020
29-12-2007, 16:43
Personal preference is, as ever, important. If I were to use the language that is frequently bounced around with regards to Goto, I guess I'm just saying that while his books might suck, they most definitely are not unique in that regard.


The difference is (for me) that every Heresy book i've read has gripped and involved me, throwing engaging characters who possess depth and substance.
They have? Weird. I find the Horus Heresy novels to be almost entirely lacking in substance and with a superficial plot that seems unimaginatively there to show you how impressive the author feels the Marines and the Primarchs are. Its characterisation also seems to lack, turning what is otherwise an interesting concept (Marine) into little more than a square-jawed, "American hero" approach. (The only difference being that often a hint of doubt is thrown into one of the characters. Wow!)

And, for me, if I can compile even 6-7 pages of interesting information out of a BL novel I consider myself lucky, since that gives me a $1:1 interesting page ratio. Some of the novels that I consider... somewhat weaker (e.g. Storm of Iron) I don't even get one single interesting idea, but rather am presented with nineteenth century military tactics that are supposed to represent the "best" of the 40k universe. Yeah, sheer genius, that.

Of course, in all fairness, in most BL novels there is what I think of the "yawn factor," or perhaps "skip factor." While many novels might start out interestingly (Lord of the Night surprised me on this one), ultimately you get to the same, repetitive story elements. Thus I start yawning away, thumbing through the pages (well, just reading faster) to get to some form of interesting element or, in some books, just the blessed end.


Again, I disagree. Mcneill dosen't suck, in my opinion.
He seems to be an author that is most at home in the fantasy genre, rather than the future fantasy one. ;)


Gotos has systematically reshaped the entire Eldar background and made a mockery of the established fluff.
Once again, I'm not a fan of his material. His books are occasionally in the one interesting idea level, unusually in the two, but more normally in the zero level. (BL in general seems to average at 2-3.) I just find the level of criticism levelled at him disproportionate in comparison to his contemporaries in the BL stable.

(Although I seem to recall being rather fond of what he did to a Solitaire, but that has blended in my mind into a generic "BL stuff," along with what might be thought of as the plots to many, if not all, of the Horus Heresy series. ;) That seems pretty much the "one interesting point" from that novel, though.)


Surely you can't have much more freedom than that; to re-write the basic facts of a race in their entirety!
Given that the facts are pretty much scattered around here, there and everywhere, as well you known as a self-proclaimed Eldarphile? There's pretty much nothing to really re-write, let alone basic facts. The Eldar are a race held together in the canonical material by sound-bites and cool-looking miniatures.


No, it wouldn't, because regardless of how you feel about the restrictions placed on BL authors, some are still better than others.
Again, I didn't suggest otherwise, merely that the level of criticism is disproportionate to the weaknesses in the novels and, as mentioned earlier in the thread, partially a result of the fact that he is one of the few authors that tackles Eldar. (This is something that we have been over before, as I believe that none of the BL authors have quite got the Eldar 'right,' but that's just me.)


Its irrelevant how many restrictions BL (or resitrictions you seem to think BL put on writers) because if they can write, it still shows.
I hope that they put restrictions on the authors so that, for example, they cannot really tinker around with the universe. In some ways I think it is useful to compare it to Watson's Inquisition War series. Whatever you might say about that trilogy, you actually learned something new. In short, it had scope. The other BL novels? Generally they tell us what we already know.


Personally, I don't believe that to be the case. If BL are responsible for Goto's utter, and frankly discraceful representation and rape of the established Eldar fluff, then fair enough, but personally, I don't think they are.
Has Bregalad hacked your account, Rockerfella? :D


I think we just see this from where we stand.
Perspective. Aye. When I look out on the BL novels, I see a pond with but a few lilies on it. The rest, I'm afraid, shows the scum of pollution. Okay, that's inappropriately harsh, but it was the first visual image that sprang to mind.

Is Goto a lily? For me, no. In the BL publications there are very few lilies, and most people can agree on a handful of those. Is Goto the worst bit of 'scum'? Again, for me, no. He floats on the water in the same way as many of the other books from BL.

Do I want him to write another Eldar novel? Not particularly. And unless they get someone fresh in to write for the Eldar, a part of me wonders whether I actually want to see another BL Eldar novel. (This comes from someone that really, really wants to see more information on the Eldar. But the over-themed, sound-bited tosh that we are normally presented with? No thank you.)

Then again, with all the above said, I'm not a fiction author and, more, I doubt that I have particularly good taste in novels. So take it all with a pinch of salt.

Kage

Rockerfella
29-12-2007, 17:29
Hi Kage.

right, down to business....


Personal preference is, as ever, important. If I were to use the language that is frequently bounced around with regards to Goto, I guess I'm just saying that while his books might suck, they most definitely are not unique in that regard. Personal preference is all that really matters here, in all fairness. Its a very subjective thing we're discussing, after all, it all simply boils down to 'Do I like this book, and its author?'



They have? Weird. I find the Horus Heresy novels to be almost entirely lacking in substance and with a superficial plot that seems unimaginatively there to show you how impressive the author feels the Marines and the Primarchs are. Its characterisation also seems to lack, turning what is otherwise an interesting concept (Marine) into little more than a square-jawed, "American hero" approach. (The only difference being that often a hint of doubt is thrown into one of the characters. Wow!)

Yeah, they have, but I don't think thats weird. Compared to Gotos work, the heresy books are several rungs above. I feel Goto bathes in his own mediocrity in the face of the other Heresy books. Again, thats just me!


Of course, in all fairness, in most BL novels there is what I think of the "yawn factor," or perhaps "skip factor." While many novels might start out interestingly (Lord of the Night surprised me on this one), ultimately you get to the same, repetitive story elements. Thus I start yawning away, thumbing through the pages (well, just reading faster) to get to some form of interesting element or, in some books, just the blessed end. Whilst I do agree with you somewhat here, I find the 'yawn/flick' factor occurs with many books i've read in the past, and certainyl isn't unique to the BL stable of writers.










Given that the facts are pretty much scattered around here, there and everywhere, as well you known as a self-proclaimed Eldarphile? There's pretty much nothing to really re-write, let alone basic facts. The Eldar are a race held together in the canonical material by sound-bites and cool-looking miniatures.



Again, I didn't suggest otherwise, I know that good sir!
merely that the level of criticism is disproportionate to the weaknesses in the novels and, as mentioned earlier in the thread, partially a result of the fact that he is one of the few authors that tackles Eldar. Again, a difference of opinon. I certainly don't feel that the level of criticism is unfair, given Goto's bent towards hte ludicrous.



Has Bregalad hacked your account, Rockerfella? :D Funnily enough..... *checks my account* Hehehe!



Perspective. Aye. When I look out on the BL novels, I see a pond with but a few lilies on it. The rest, I'm afraid, shows the scum of pollution. Okay, that's inappropriately harsh, but it was the first visual image that sprang to mind. Harsh, but some would say fair. Look, you and me are both savvy enough to know that regardless of what the other says, this ultimately boils down to opinion and perspective. I'll certainly never tell someone their wrong when it comes down to interpretation and perspective, epsecially in terms of a subject such as Goto or literature.



Then again, with all the above said, I'm not a fiction author and, more, I doubt that I have particularly good taste in novels. So take it all with a pinch of salt.

Of course, but not being a fiction author does not reduce or devalue your opinion or feelings on a book or its author. Just because I don't write reams and reams of science fiction material, doens't mean i'm not able to discern what I think is good, and what itsn't. The same applies to us all.

UselessThing
29-12-2007, 19:52
I read Black Library books as fully the male equivalent of Romance Novels.

Really, I'm looking for some mindless action, and it is as such I choose to measure them. And most are entirely acceptable as such.

Kage2020
29-12-2007, 21:24
Compared to Gotos work, the heresy books are several rungs above. I feel Goto bathes in his own mediocrity in the face of the other Heresy books. Again, thats just me!
Well, I'm not going to disagree with you in terms of the relative "quality" - or at least how I felt about them - between some (perhaps all) of Goto's novels and the Horus Heresy novels. As I have mentioned numerous times, I'm not a fan of Goto's work in general. At the same time, I'm also not going to kid myself about the overall quality of the Horus Heresy novels in terms of what they actually achieve.


Whilst I do agree with you somewhat here, I find the 'yawn/flick' factor occurs with many books i've read in the past, and certainyl isn't unique to the BL stable of writers.
Nope, of course it is not a unique quality. However, as a general rule I know that if I pick up a BL novel I'm more likely to run into this type of novel than if I picked one randomly off the shelf at the local book store.

I just find the level of Goto-bashing surprising given the quality of the other novels. Some of it also reminds me of the comments that were originally levelled at Abnett...

Ah well.

Kage

JodiePascal
30-12-2007, 10:37
I love this book, as I am a returning Eldar player, this book has really resparked my desire to build my Eldar army to its former college days glory!

Kage2020
30-12-2007, 15:26
I knew there had to be at least one person out there. ;)

Kage

Bregalad
30-12-2007, 17:40
Are his books really this bad?
Yep!

Has Bregalad hacked your account, Rockerfella? :D
Someone called me? ;)

Anyway. I propose that all threads dealing with Goto novels should be moved from "background" to "random musings", as they have absolutely nothing to do with official 40k background.


I love this book, as I am a returning Eldar player, this book has really resparked my desire to build my Eldar army to its former college days glory!
Say hello to Goto's Mom :)