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Harry Zombini
27-12-2007, 18:46
I have a friend who insists that Mortal Chaos Armies are (and I don't quote because it would offend people) 'rubbish'. So he always fields groups of 5 cavalry backed up by 3-4 Wizards on discs with every ward-saave or cheeky 'you-can't hurt me' piece of equipment going and all their daemony mates.

I've told him that his army is boring to play against and he insists that Chaos can't be played any other way. So i did what any self-respecting hobbyist with too much time would do and went out and acquired the army books in an attempt to beat him at his own game. I have no experience with Chaos in Fantasy, so I was hoping for ideas from you lovely peeps.

The rules are as follows (and slightly flexible):

I must be using Mortal units and Mortal Characters only (or at least in the vast majority) but I'm open to Beasts or Men.

No Special Characters (they're cheeky). But Happy to take Dogs of War.

And I need to be able to deal with surfing wizard lords (anything short of a meat tenderising hammer and my friend murdering me afterwards).

Help me, I'm foolish.

Pelskwig
27-12-2007, 19:00
My first suggestion, would be start by taking a Khornate army. Thats a lot of dispel dice you can chuck around.
It's not much, but it's a start.
I'ver never been one to be able to "make and army to beat an army" to be honest, I usuaully end up going for what I think a) Would look good b) Suits the army.
Personally a couple nice big units of chaos warriors are very characterful for me, but people always go on about them being gimped. Course, against marauder horsement, they'd kick holes.
Fleshhounds? I seem to remember them being quite snazzy and tough.

Jack of Blades
27-12-2007, 19:19
Need to deal with surfing wizard lords? need anti-magic protection?


Chaos Lord of Khorne - 708 Points

Chaos Dragon
Hellfire Sword
Crimson Armour of Dargan
Shield
(Alternatively, if you're feeling really anti-magical, exchange the Hellfire Sword for the Spelleater Shield and Sword of Might/Axe of Khorne)


25 Marauders - 165 Points

Standard Bearer
Musician
Flails


25 Marauders - 165 Points

Standard Bearer
Musician
Flails


Chariot of Khorne - 150 Points


Chariot of Khorne - 150 Points


5 Chosen Knights of Khorne - 350 Points

Standard Bearer
Musician
Banner of Rage


6 Flesh Hounds of Khorne - 96 Points


6 Flesh Hounds of Khorne - 96 Points


8 Chaos Furies - 120 Points


There ya go. Serves him right for being such an egoistic prick.

Harry Zombini
27-12-2007, 19:55
oooh, that actually looks like it could be fun, I'll need to buy another pot of red paint though...

Jack: Further to Pelskwig's comment, is it true that Chaos Warriors are officially pap? You seem to be able to pull an army list out of thin air (bravo by the way) so I figure you must be a seasoned Chaos player?

It'd be a shame not to field them as they do look rather cool (and like they'd be easy to paint!).

Jack of Blades
27-12-2007, 20:08
I haven't played more than three games of Warhammer, all at 500 points. I've just spent so much time fine-tuning my understandment of this game that it doesn't really matter, and the result is that I can play it in theory, but have no experience to speak of. I've been criticised as an innate master strategist too, and my dad is... how do I say this, he has autism. I haven't received the negative sides of that though.

I guess I should stop bragging...

Yeah, I'd say CWs are officialy crappy. Chosen are ok, but really - you can take about three units of 25 marauders with standards, musicians and flails, or even more units of horsemen. It's just not worth it. Chosen are only ok because they have 2 attacks, but that's it. A unit of Trolls performs much the same role as a unit of Chosen, because you really can't afford to have a lot of them.

Though, if you really want some, I'd advice making them size 11/14 + Exalted, Standard and Musician. You probably want to swap the Banner of Rage to them too, as they are more likely to need it. I'd give them GWs. It's usually always favorable to be able to kill models against Knights than it is to survive their blows, especially against Chaos Knights seeing as they don't lose anything from an ongoing combat while you won't be able to dent them with shields and they have a higher base strength, thus penetrating your armour better. Three attacks at S6 hitting on 4+ per model supported by an Exalted with the Banner of Nigh-Unreakability is going to hurt, no matter whether you're charging that unit or being charged by it.

I am perhaps going to start Chaos when the new book comes out, but that won't be until Spring or so. Anything else? :)

Latro
27-12-2007, 20:10
More Khornate goodness!

Daemon Prince of Khorne
- with lots of daemonic toys

2x Exalted Champion of Khorne
- mounted, just basic equipment

2x 5 Knights of Khorne
- full command

2x 5 mounted Marauders
- musician and flails

3x Minotaurs of Khorne
- great weapons

1x Chariot of Khorne

4x 5 Warhounds of Chaos

8 Furies

... and a Bloodbeast I believe. It has been a while and I'm too lazy to check the points. The general idea behind the list should be clear though:

- fast
- bloody
- movement control


:cool:

Little Aaad
27-12-2007, 21:36
I seem to be able to use CW's quite effectivly and win games. Khorne warriors with halberd/shield and musician work rather well. Double charge with 2 chariots and an exalted inside and Chosen Chaos Knights. Backed by 10 M's with GW, 20 M's w/ HW,LA,S and fleshhounds and hounds works well. 3 breakers and a base core is what I do.

Harry Zombini
27-12-2007, 21:40
That's a very agressive list! It'd be weird playing Warhammer without relying on Rank Bonuses to see me through (I suppose I get used to that with my Zombies...not renowned for their combat prowess).

I didn't realise they were planning to release the Chaos list again, I thought they had plenty of projects to keep them going in the meantime...

As for Jack only having played 3 times, I suggest you play a few more bigger games, you'll soon see that understanding HOW an army works is entirely different to how it will perform. I've learned never to trust a statline!

Exhibit A: In my first 2 games of Warhammer with my Middenheim Empire force, my greatswords(hammers) fled 3 times...STUBBORN??? Not when I use them!!

Exhibit B: In my 3rd game with my Bretons I charged a small 10-strong unit of Crossbowmen with a unit of 9 Knights. They all missed, the crossbowmen struck back and killed 2 knights. Heavy armour? More like larping gear...

Exhibit C... I'm not going to continue, it's too depressing to remember how many times Lady Luck has been humping my opponent!

Coenono
27-12-2007, 22:09
The last list while very good just proves your friends point that the only way to play a chaos army is with mounted or fast moveing units.... and Id have to agree with him that is the most "effective" way to play chaos. As a elite cc army with no shooting you need the safety of combat. But to truely show you friend up I think you would need a mostly if not all infantry army. Now Im by no means an expert here in fact I have quite chaos till they get a new book and collected a shiney new orc and goblin army. Lets face it chosen knights of khorne are going to rip apart anything they touch!!! now since it seems he is play a Tzeentch themed army I would suggest Big blocks of Maurders let by characters.marking khorne is a good idea for the anti magic help they give you . These big block of maurders will be supported by MSU of khone warriors with extra had weapons. Since you are playing a chaos army you will not need to worry about shields. You can use the khorne units much the same way empire uses detatchments. I would take them in units of 12 in a 6x2 format. Now you dont NEED a lord. Infact i would advise against it unless your friend has a lord.

General characters I like and are in fact used abit by most choas players are:
Lord/Hero MoU
-Helm of Many Eyes
- GW
This is nice as a hero set up. Its cheap and the mark lets you reroll the stupidity. Also Always strike first with a great weapon is really going to give his Knights a rough day. Or for that matter his chariots.
I cant remember some of the other character combos i use ill have to look over the books again.

Now im not saying this is the most effective way to do things im just saying to really show your friend up id stick to mostly foot troops.

mightygnoblar
27-12-2007, 22:24
basically if your are going up against magic you want a lord kicking about with the spell eater sheild and an exalted with the collar of khorne.
If you want to field warriors the best way to do it is to take small squads odf 12 in two ranks of six, personally id take halberds and make them chosen (with the mark of khorne of course)-if properly protected this unit will deal 3 strength 5 attacks per model when they get into combat.
However i also agree with the other poster in that normal chaos wariors are not great, they are far too expensive for what they do and all in all marauders are simply better.
Beastmen units are also a must in my opinion as they are fast and because they skirmish they make very effective screens (ie they can nicely absorb a load of fire power and them get out of the way quickly)
I would also suggest that you include two units of flesh hounds as there magic resistance 2 will make them invaluable
Overall they chaos list is on par with most other armies in fantasy and have many viable ways of playing, the problem with them is that they are not truely competitive and generally it is the "uncool" stuff in the list that is the most effective

Jack of Blades
27-12-2007, 22:33
I didn't realise they were planning to release the Chaos list again, I thought they had plenty of projects to keep them going in the meantime...

As for Jack only having played 3 times, I suggest you play a few more bigger games, you'll soon see that understanding HOW an army works is entirely different to how it will perform. I've learned never to trust a statline!


As far as I know, it's only the Daemons. I wouldn't place my bets yet though.

And I would, if I hadn't regreted spending the money on my Ogres. They're collecting dust now and I'm not rich nor am I adult. I may get to finishing them sometime... but I'm not too interested in them anymore. I like VC/Chaos. Just be here when the VCs are released and you'll see :p

I don't trust the statlines btw, so no worries, it's just that on an estimate, they should be doing fine.

logan054
27-12-2007, 22:55
Need to deal with surfing wizard lords? need anti-magic protection?


Chaos Lord of Khorne - 708 Points

Chaos Dragon
Hellfire Sword
Crimson Armour of Dargan
Shield
(Alternatively, if you're feeling really anti-magical, exchange the Hellfire Sword for the Spelleater Shield and Sword of Might/Axe of Khorne)


25 Marauders - 165 Points

Standard Bearer
Musician
Flails


25 Marauders - 165 Points

Standard Bearer
Musician
Flails


Chariot of Khorne - 150 Points


Chariot of Khorne - 150 Points


5 Chosen Knights of Khorne - 350 Points

Standard Bearer
Musician
Banner of Rage


6 Flesh Hounds of Khorne - 96 Points


6 Flesh Hounds of Khorne - 96 Points


8 Chaos Furies - 120 Points


There ya go. Serves him right for being such an egoistic prick.

I think the lord would be better with berserker sword, amulet of chaos and enchanted shield, brillant rank and file killer and not bad at killing strength 3 cav (brets, empire).

Jack of Blades
27-12-2007, 23:02
I think the lord would be better with berserker sword, amulet of chaos and enchanted shield, brillant rank and file killer and not bad at killing strength 3 cav (brets, empire).

Well to be honest, it doesn't really matter what you put on him. A Chaos Lord on a Chaos Dragon is going to hurt :)

As he'll probably have to hunt characters most of the time, I figured the Hellfire Sword would be more suitable for that. Though they'll probably die anyway, it's just a way of guaranteeing that they do die. I mean, if you charge a unit of Knights from whatever point armed with just a GW, they're probably going to break.

Latro
28-12-2007, 20:25
The last list while very good just proves your friends point that the only way to play a chaos army is with mounted or fast moveing units....

Just a sidenote: The original post wasn't about mounted v. foot ... it was about Mortal Chaos being crap compared to Daemonic goodness and how to disprove that.


:cool:

logan054
28-12-2007, 21:02
Well to be honest, it doesn't really matter what you put on him. A Chaos Lord on a Chaos Dragon is going to hurt :)

As he'll probably have to hunt characters most of the time, I figured the Hellfire Sword would be more suitable for that. Though they'll probably die anyway, it's just a way of guaranteeing that they do die. I mean, if you charge a unit of Knights from whatever point armed with just a GW, they're probably going to break.

actually it does matter what you give him, hellfire sword is a huge waste, axe of khorne is far better for the points (if you go khorne), also, bare in mind that if he ever fights a unit he actually has to kill 6 models to even win combat, the opton provided makes this a very real option. If your going character hunting then chaos runeshield + great fang is a brillant option against most armies.