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Mythrider
28-12-2007, 12:44
This may have already been discussed (apologies but I couldn't find anything on it) or be better in General Discussion but the title is the question.

The OK book allows for a good number of units to be taken as DoW in other armies. I don't own all of the Army books but do any of the ones published after OK actually allow for DoW.

None of the post OK books I have (namely Empire) allow for DoW to be taken as rare choices.

Griefbringer
28-12-2007, 13:03
Wood Elves explicitely allow for DoW as a rare choice, and I think that book came out half a year after the OK book (and at the time of the OK book release the WE players were mightily annoyed with their book being delayed even further due to some silly ogres).

superknijn
28-12-2007, 13:05
Ahum: Linky (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=List_Models&code=301082&orignav=13)
And also the text itself:
Note on DoW from Gav Thorpe.
There's a variety of reasons for removing the reference to DOW in the forthcoming army books, and these are the main ones:
1. The rules detailing how to include DOW in an army are included in the DOW list/ articles. Therefore if you have access to those rules you have access to how they can be added to your army.
2. We may wish to revise the way DOW work in the future, and while we continue to perpetuate the current rules for them in the army books this will be very difficult to do. Our intent is that the DOW rules, should we produce a proper supplement, will be entirely self-contained and require no references in the army books.
Neither of these are intended as a signal that we are never going to do/ immediately going to do (delete as appropriate) a Dogs of War supplement. They are simply a sort of house-cleaning procedure that leaves us clear to evaluate and pursue the correct course of action regarding Dogs of War in the future.

Mythrider
28-12-2007, 13:36
Alright, so WE can take OK units and some DoW/RoR.

Empire and OnG are not allowed to take OK units, but they do have access to regular DoW and RoR units.

Can Dwarfs take OK units? I don't have the Dwarf book if this violates IP don't answer. What about the new High Elves?

DarthSte
28-12-2007, 14:02
Bretonnian can't.

Urgat
28-12-2007, 15:11
Empire and OnG are not allowed to take OK units, but they do have access to regular DoW and RoR units.

Mmh, my reading from the OK army book (p67 in french edition) is that anybody that can take mercenaries can take ogre mercenaries as rare choices, maneaters take two rare choices.

Soul of Iron
28-12-2007, 15:14
I've been out ofWHF for a while. Can someone please explain to me how DoW rules function? I read Gav's quote up there and it made me confused as hell.

Griefbringer
28-12-2007, 15:45
Mmh, my reading from the OK army book (p67 in french edition) is that anybody that can take mercenaries can take ogre mercenaries as rare choices

From what I have heard, the English version of the OK kingdom states that the OK ogres can be taken as DoW only by the armies who have DoW as an explicit option in their army lists (ie. it is not enough that the generic DoW army list allows for taking DoW units in general).

This does not match well with the GW decision to remove the DoW entries from the army books (as they are more or less redundant with the more accurate entries in the DoW list itself). Apparently nobody thought of doing an errata to the OK book to match this new way of thinking.


I've been out ofWHF for a while. Can someone please explain to me how DoW rules function? I read Gav's quote up there and it made me confused as hell.

The rules themselves are pretty clearly explained in the DoW army list (available as free PDF download on the GW website), which specifies which armies can take which DoW units, and whether these count as special or rare choices for that particular army.

Ganymede
28-12-2007, 16:04
From what I have heard, the English version of the OK kingdom states that the OK ogres can be taken as DoW only by the armies who have DoW as an explicit option in their army lists (ie. it is not enough that the generic DoW army list allows for taking DoW units in general).



This is not completely accurate. The English book says that any army that can take dogs of war as a rare choice can take ogres.

Shamfrit
28-12-2007, 16:38
Skaven can take DoW as a rare choice, so if the above's true, we could take OK, not that i'd be seen dead with something non-rat, lol. Rat Ogres look so much cooler.

Soul of Iron
28-12-2007, 16:44
The rules themselves are pretty clearly explained in the DoW army list (available as free PDF download on the GW website), which specifies which armies can take which DoW units, and whether these count as special or rare choices for that particular army.

Ok so let me try to understand this. An Empire player using, the new book, CAN take a DoW Giant regardless of the lack of a DoW entry in the new rules?

Is that what you are saying?

I guess what I'm getting at is I have a giant I want to convert into either Tzeentchian or into a zombie. I would like to do the zombie giant but with the new rules coming out, I don't want to create a model I wont be able to field past March/April.

memitchell747
28-12-2007, 16:54
The DoW rules (available on he GW website) include all you need to know about using them. The DoW Giant rules are also on the website, and the rules are specific. Empire can use it.

The only trouble is the Ogre Kingdom book was written before GW decided not to include redundant rules about DoW in new army books, since they were already covered by the DoW rules. This left OK hanging because of one sentence, which said, they could be taken in armies that allowed them. You really have to be a pedantic rules lawyer to disallow armies with newer (and only newer) books to not take them, especially after Gav explained the reasons for the change. Take'm, use'em, love'em.

Griefbringer
28-12-2007, 16:57
An Empire player using, the new book, CAN take a DoW Giant regardless of the lack of a DoW entry in the new rules?


Essentially, yes (I do not have the DoW Giant rules at hand so cannot double-check which armies are allowed to field it - I think there might have been some restrictions).

Important thing here is to apply all the relevant rules, that is:
- those in the Empire book (the new book does not forbid taking DoW)
- those in the DoW list (which explicitely allows Empire to take DoW units)
- those in the giant entry (which specifies whether Empire can take this particular unit)

Mercules
28-12-2007, 17:04
Considering the Empire employs Ogres as "guides" through the Mountains of Mourn to Cathay, they had best be able to hire them. :)

Mythrider
28-12-2007, 17:44
Thanks for the replies all.

The DoW/RoR stuff on the GW site/Chronicles seems to be well explained. The issue here is that Gav's note only refers to these sources, it makes no mention of the OK book.

What I'm getting at is what GriefBringer pointed out in his (or her) 1st post and what memitchell747 has brought up in post 12.

The books released post OK are not uniform in their removal of redundant rules as they pertain to the inclusion of OK units. Some of the post OK books (at least WE) have DoW as Rare in the army list, others do not (Empire and OnG).

I've been around GW and their products long enough to know that this situation came about due to *'the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing' combined with the fact that to GW proof reading is a strange and obscure concept.

To follow Griefbringers most recent post, following all the relevant rules Empire armies can take a DoW Giant but they can not make use of OK units.

I don't necessarily agree with this RAW interpretation (as a strictly tourney player I do have to accept it) and don't wish to start any RAW vs. RAI arguments.

The real reason for my post was the fact that I was reading army books in bed last night a realized that in typical GW fashion they created a book with rules to include units (OK) that was then rendered useless by pretty much every book released immediately after.

Ganymede
28-12-2007, 18:11
This is what the english ogre book states...

"[Ogre Kingdom Ogres] may be taken in a warhammer army with the option of taking Dogs of War as a rare choice."

Is Empire a warhammer army with the option of taking Dogs of War as a rare choice? Unarguably, yes!

Mercules
28-12-2007, 18:18
This is what the english ogre book states...

"[Ogre Kingdom Ogres] may be taken in a warhammer army with the option of taking Dogs of War as a rare choice."

Is Empire a warhammer army with the option of taking Dogs of War as a rare choice? Unarguably, yes!

And to add to that it says in the DoW rules:
"Empire, any Chaos, Dark Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts, Khemri, Dwarfs, and Lizardmen armies can field any unit from the Dogs of War army list."

EvC
28-12-2007, 19:54
Want to know if an army can take DoW? Check out the DoW part of the website, and it's that damn simple. This question comes up an hilarious amount of times (Usually when new army books are released and some clown declares "They can no longer take DoW!!!" without having read the DoW rules), it'd be good if it was added to the "READ THIS - FAQs" thread...

Mythrider
28-12-2007, 19:59
@Ganymede: And what page of the Empire army book allows the taking of DoW units? Its page 59 in the WE book. There is no such reference in the Empire book.

@Mercules: Your quote is correct but has no bearing on the OK issue. DoW Ogres and OK Ogres are not the same thing ie. Leadbelchers and Ironguts are not part of the Dogs of War army list. Just like the Dwarven Crossbowmen available in the DoW army list are not the same a Quarellers from the Dwarf army book.

Both of your aruments prove my point further. Empire armies can not use OK units. Again, I'm not saying this is how the rules should be, merely that this is how they are.

Dendo Star
28-12-2007, 20:08
@Ganymede: And what page of the Empire army book allows the taking of DoW units? Its page 59 in the WE book. There is no such reference in the Empire book.

@Mercules: Your quote is correct but has no bearing on the OK issue. DoW Ogres and OK Ogres are not the same thing ie. Leadbelchers and Ironguts are not part of the Dogs of War army list. Just like the Dwarven Crossbowmen available in the DoW army list are not the same a Quarellers from the Dwarf army book.

Both of your aruments prove my point further. Empire armies can not use OK units. Again, I'm not saying this is how the rules should be, merely that this is how they are.

Now, now. Don't be stupid.

1. The Dogs Of War/Regiments Of Renown downloadable .pdf from the GW site clearly explains that the DoW/RoR selection has been overhauled and books no longer need to explicitly state DoW/RoR are a legal choice. There's a table for what army can take what units and everything.

2. The Nemesis Crown special character for the Empire (7th Edition naturally, as the new Empire book was out long before the NC campaign began) had a rule that included the DoW/RoR choice. He is the finest evidence around DoW/RoR choices are unchanged for the Empire or any other 7th Edition army.

3. This link should silence any further silliness. http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=List_Models&code=301082&orignav=13

And don't forget about the downloadable .pdf on the GW site for hiring Giants!

Ganymede
28-12-2007, 20:25
@Ganymede: And what page of the Empire army book allows the taking of DoW units? Its page 59 in the WE book. There is no such reference in the Empire book.


You are adding limitations where none exist.

the ogre kingdoms dog of war rules do not require such permission within the actual armybook. The permission to take dogs of war units as a rare choice is within the DoW PDF.

Kam
29-12-2007, 01:09
Indeed he is correct. I have notice however that many people fighting against an army that contains a DoW unit are not pleased with seeing them on the battlefeild, usually saying comment like 'you should rely on your own army to dot he job', or 'fill the point gaps with your own men' and such.

You may take ogres as DoW but only Bulls, Ironguts, and leadbelchers. You may also take maneaters but they take 2 rares (worth every slot). But if your useing an empire, dark elves, tomb kings, vampire couns, or skaven army, and you want to use dogs of war.... i suggest you use a giant. 205 points of halariousness. C'mon... you know they're funny...

Pick up and....
lol

Dendo Star
29-12-2007, 04:31
Not to get off topic too much, but a Dog Of War Army may field Ogre Kingdom units as a Special choice. They may even take Maneaters as a single Special choice.

Mythrider
29-12-2007, 04:54
@Dendo Star

"Now, now. Don't be stupid."

So reading what is actually written as opposed to what I wish was written makes me stupid. Interesting.

As to your points:
1. Completely correct. However as I stated, OK units are not included in the pdf and no one can provide me with a reference that does include OK units.

2. Do you have a link to the rules for this character. I imagine he was legal during the campaign but has been removed. I also imagine that if he is still legal his rules refer to the DoW/RoR pdfs which, again, do not contain OK units.

3. Your link supports my position. All of the units in it are legal. There are no OK units included in the link. Golgfag's Ogres are perfectly legal in an Empire army. Bulls, Leadbelchers and Ironguts are not. Same for Maneaters.

@Ganymede

"You are adding limitations where none exist."

No, I'm really not.

"the ogre kingdoms dog of war rules do not require such permission within the actual armybook."

Yes they do. It's on page 67 of the OK book, right hand column, under the heading Dogs of War, 3rd sentence. (I'm holding the book)

"The permission to take dogs of war units as a rare choice is within the DoW PDF."

As I have said before, this permission covers units from the DoW list, not the OK list. Golgfag's Ogres and generic DoW Ogres are legal, OK units are not (except for WE and pre-OK book armies). The Dogs of War rule within each OK unit entry specifically says to refer to page 67 of OK, not the pdf. The unit entries also state "any army with the appropriat option" which the Empire book does not have, but the WE book does.

Dendo Star
29-12-2007, 06:17
Yeah...no.

Does evidence and fact not sway you?

TheDarkDaff
29-12-2007, 06:19
As I have said before, this permission covers units from the DoW list, not the OK list.

Only half right. The permision does not just cover those in the list but allows DOW units to be included in other army's as a rare choice, which fulfils the OK requirement of the army being able to take DOW units as a rare choice (except for Brettonia). That is of course unless DOW units are not actually DOW units in which case you would be correct.

Look at it this way.
1) The DOW PDF tells us which army's can include DOW units as rare (it does not matter if the army has a unit entry in their Rare section or not)
2) OK units can be included in an army that can take DOW units as rare
3) The Rare entry seen in older Army books is irrelevant

The only way you can argue that Empire (who don't have the DOW entry in their Rare section) can't take OK units as DOW is if you say nothing in the DOW PDF is actually a DOW unit (which would mean the OK requirement of the army being able to take DOW as Rare choices would not be met).

Dendo Star
29-12-2007, 06:20
Not to mention that Ogres are a long standing Imperial mainstay...:rolleyes:

Also, http://nemesis.us.games-workshop.com/hobby/gaming/usscenarios/drampersonae/default.htm

3rd guy down on the list.

explorator
29-12-2007, 14:11
Yeah...no.

Does evidence and fact not sway you?

Does it not sway you? I agree with Mythrider. The current rules for OK as DoW conflict with the most recent army books. The OK book lays out seperate requirments for including OK units as DoW. Those requirements cannot be met by Armies that do not have the option in thier list. Empire, Orcs, and High Elves may take Golgfag's Ogres, but not OK Bulls, Ironguts, Leadbelchers, or Maneaters.

I think GW just needs to update the rules for using OK DoW so they conform to the new books. I believe that OK DoW should be allowed, and this one is an easy house-rule patch, but not legal.

Mythrider
29-12-2007, 14:39
@DarkDaff

Your points:
1. Correct.
2. Really, what page is this on. Again, the pdf does not mention OK units.
3. Correct. But I'm not concerned with older army books, only those published after OK. WE book (which is newer) allows for OK units, the others do not.

As to the last point I'm saying the opposite if I get you right. My view, everything in the DoW pdf IS a DoW unit. OK units are just that OK units, not DoW units. They have a rule called Dogs of War but are not in fact part of that sublist. Hence Golgfag's etc. are legal while OK units are not.

@Ganymede

"Not to mention that Ogres are a long standing Imperial mainstay"

Because GW would never add or remove anything to an army from one book to the next (Spider Riders, Witch Elf Heroes, etc.)

Are you still playing a lot of NC Mega Battles? The rest of us aren't. The special rule for this character only applies in NC Mega Battles, as per the link YOU provided.

"An Empire army that includes von Schädel may take, as a Core choice, any one Dogs of War unit or Regiment of Renown normally available to Empire armies."

That's well and good but does not in any way give permission to include OK units.

@explorator

"I think GW just needs to update the rules for using OK DoW so they conform to the new books. I believe that OK DoW should be allowed, and this one is an easy house-rule patch, but not legal."

Correct. This is my point, shoddy work by GW has created a bad situation that we the players are stuck with.

Nephilim of Sin
29-12-2007, 14:48
Perhaps I am looking at the wrong book, but it actually says "If the entry for a given Ogre Unit type has the special rule 'Dogs of War', they may be taken in a Warhammer army with the option of taking 'Dogs of War' as a rare choice." (pg 67) Not, if their army books says it's okay, but if they have the option.

Dogs of War PDF states which armies have the option. Not talking about OK vs. DOW Ogres, just the option. Thus, they can choose whether they want Ogres or OK.

OK PDF (jan/07) talks about which banner a DOW OK bull can take when used as DOW.

No, it is not cut and dry. Yes, you need to look for it. But, as has already been said, it is there.

Festus
29-12-2007, 14:54
Correct. This is my point, shoddy work by GW has created a bad situation that we the players are stuck with.
Can you tell me what is this *bad situation* you speak of?

I am one of the first to say that GW cannot write cohesive rules, but the DoW rules are pretty tight - and this is considering that they cahnge the basic principle of how DoW can be fielded.

And that is saying something, considering GW. The Empire may take DoW, thus they may take Ogre units, just like Orc etc.

Festus

TheDarkDaff
29-12-2007, 21:50
@DarkDaff

Your points:
1. Correct.
2. Really, what page is this on. Again, the pdf does not mention OK units.
3. Correct. But I'm not concerned with older army books, only those published after OK. WE book (which is newer) allows for OK units, the others do not.


"If the entry for a given Ogre Unit type has the special rule 'Dogs of War', they may be taken in a Warhammer army with the option of taking 'Dogs of War' as a rare choice."

Now let me say this again.
Any army listed in the DOW PDF has the option of taking 'Dogs of War' as a rare choice (notice how that is the exact wording of the OK 'Dogs of War' rule). Just because newer Armybooks don't have the specific unit entry in the rare section for 'Dogs of War' does not change the fact that the newer Army's still have the option because of the wording of the DOW PDF. The only way you could remove the option of taking 'Dogs of War' as a rare choice is by saying that everything in the DOW PDF does not count as being 'Dogs of War'.

^Changer^
29-12-2007, 22:59
To get this argument sorted, I just need you, Mythbuster, to answer one (1) simple question;

Are Empire allowed to take Dogs of War as a rare choice?

Yes or No, please

Cheers

Ganymede
30-12-2007, 01:08
@Ganymede

"Not to mention that Ogres are a long standing Imperial mainstay"

Because GW would never add or remove anything to an army from one book to the next (Spider Riders, Witch Elf Heroes, etc.)

Are you still playing a lot of NC Mega Battles? The rest of us aren't. The special rule for this character only applies in NC Mega Battles, as per the link YOU provided.

"An Empire army that includes von Schädel may take, as a Core choice, any one Dogs of War unit or Regiment of Renown normally available to Empire armies."

That's well and good but does not in any way give permission to include OK units.



I didn't say any of that crap.

Ganymede
30-12-2007, 01:14
Does it not sway you? I agree with Mythrider. The current rules for OK as DoW conflict with the most recent army books. The OK book lays out seperate requirments for including OK units as DoW. Those requirements cannot be met by Armies that do not have the option in thier list.

This is patently untrue. I do not appreciate such bold-faced trickery on this forum. I expect more than outright lies.

The OK army book says that any warhammer army that has the option of taking dogs of war as a rare choice may take OK ogres. Nowhere does it require an entry as seen in the Wood Elf book as you and your ilk imply.

I'll ask you a question... is the Empire army have the option to take Dogs of War as a rare choice? (the answer, undisputably, is yes)

If the answer is yes, then the Empire may take OK ogres.

Braad
30-12-2007, 20:19
The thing about WE having the entry and other books released after OK not, is simply because they decided to remove it somewhere after WE and before O&G was released. It has nothing to do with the OK book. The OK book was just written as how the sytem worked back then, just as WE. They changed it later.

I think the current rules and clarifications are not really clear on this issue, and I see both sides have their points. I would say that it would never be the intention of GW to exclude OK from the last three books (O&G, Empire, HE) though and just include them.

On a sidenote: It would become extremely difficult for GW to improve the game/add new stuff if they always had to stick exactly within the limits of earlier written work, or had to release EVERYTHING completely updated if one single minor adjustment was made somewhere in time.

A faq on the OK merenary rule would be good though.

Crazy Harborc
31-12-2007, 00:41
Yes, it (the DoW etc.) is confusing, there are very grey(gray?) areas. Botome line if you and your opponent(s) agree that Empire can have ogres or a giant then it can happen.

IMHO, what GW leaves unclear is NOT important (outside of "official GW events"). What opponents agree to IS what matters.

enyoss
31-12-2007, 01:08
To get this argument sorted, I just need you, Mythbuster, to answer one (1) simple question;

Are Empire allowed to take Dogs of War as a rare choice?

Yes or No, please

Cheers

Beat me to it :).

Cheers,

enyoss

DeathlessDraich
31-12-2007, 12:53
This is a strange discussion because of the numerous unsubstantiated claims but I agree with Griefbringer.

1) The Ogre kingdoms rules are very specific about their inclusion as Dogs of War in the another army - "[army] with the option of taking Dogs of war as a Rare choice".

2) Therefore *if and only if* the army book specifically states that
A) It may take DOW
B) as a Rare choice,

can the army be allowed to field Ogres from Ogre Kingdoms in that army.

3) I just can't find this in the Empire book unless it is tucked away somewhere? No one who claims it can be done has quoted a pg ref.

4) The argument that some have put forward, and reduced in importance by Gav Thorpe's comments, of using the DOW rules to resolve this is flawed:

a) Using another army 'book' to resolve perceived ambiguities of a particular army book leads to total rules chaos. If you allow this for this particular case then you must allow it for all ambiguities.

b) Ogre kingdoms can be included as DOW in the *specific* way its rules have outlined i.e they are *not* DOW in the same sense as the the DOW in the pdf file.

Festus
31-12-2007, 13:10
The Ogre kingdoms rules are very specific about their inclusion as Dogs of War in the another army - "[army] with the option of taking Dogs of war as a Rare choice".
Very correct.


2) Therefore *if and only if* the army book specifically states that
A) It may take DOW
B) as a Rare choice,Nonsense:
The option of taking DoW is not within the Armybooks anymore. This is solely your conjecture.

The option of taking DoW rests now with the DoW army list. All DoW slot specfications in the ABs are leftovers from the old system of doing things.

Festus

Griefbringer
31-12-2007, 13:31
This is a strange discussion because of the numerous unsubstantiated claims but I agree with Griefbringer.

1) The Ogre kingdoms rules are very specific about their inclusion as Dogs of War in the another army - "[army] with the option of taking Dogs of war as a Rare choice".


To clarify my position, my earlier posts regarding OK were not intended to convey my opinion, but were based on some arguments that I had heard expressed previously during this year. Notice that OK army book is one of the few 6th edition army books that I do not own, so I could not go and check the exact wording from there.

I was under the expression that the wording from OK book would refer to army book or to army list needing to have the explicit option, in which case the reference in the DoW list itself would not have been sufficient.

However, the way I see it quoted here, it seems to be sufficient that the army has access to DoW units to be able to take OK units; whether this option is provided through the army book/list or DoW list seems to be immaterial. Thus armies without explicit allowance for the DoW in their rare section (probably including chaos dwarves) can still take OK if the DoW list allows them to do so.

Of course, a proper OK FAQ clearing up the issue (and a number of other issues in the OK book) would be nice, but not likely to show up very soon.

explorator
31-12-2007, 13:55
This is patently untrue. I do not appreciate such bold-faced trickery on this forum. I expect more than outright lies.

@ Ganymede, accusations like yours are what makes me hesitant to participate in any discussion here on Warseer, and the rude, toxic environment keeps many away. Your post did nothing to add to the debate, you just indulged your mean-streak. I was not lying, only making my argument based on the information I had at the time. I have since found a 'cheat-sheet' on the GW website that clarifies exactly which arimies may take DoW units and whether it is core, special, or rare. Of course it is easier it hurl insults than post actual evidence. If you really wanted to prove your point you should have presented evidence. Like this.

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/dogsofwar/assets/dogs_of_war.pdf

This little gem is not printed in the 2004 annual, but only available online. It does allow Empire to take non-RoR as rare choices. Obviously, Empire may take OK DoW units as DoW. I was wrong, but was not going to see the truth without some evidence. I had to find that evidence myself as no-one who believed it to be true posted any facts.

EvC
31-12-2007, 14:02
Actually I thought Ganymede's direct response was certainly called for, after the poor arguments listed by Mythrider, although it was a bit harsh to aim it at you, as you were more a victim for believing the flawed argument put forward.

Anyway, going by the (fallacious) argument that the army book must contain the option to take DoW, that link you've provided is obselete, as it refers to the 6th edition Empire Army Book, not the 7th edition, from which the "permission" was removed. Of course if you've accepted by now that, yes, the Empire can take DoW and therefore can take Ogre DoW units, then that's no problem...

DeathlessDraich
31-12-2007, 15:05
The option of taking DoW is not within the Armybooks anymore. This is solely your conjecture.
Festus

Or yours? :p

1) You have to quote a rule which states this, *for the purposes of O.K. units*, from the main rule book or the Empire book otherwise it is yet another unsupported claim.

2) Aren't you mixing up rules here like so many in this forum?
Ogres from Ogre Kingdoms have their own special rules. DOW from the pdf files also have their own rules. Taking one rule from one source and using it to verify the rules from another source is, as I'm sure you'll agree, incorrect and renders many rules unworkable.




I was under the expression that the wording from OK book would refer to army book or to army list needing to have the explicit option,

which it does - see the quote in my previous post


in which case the reference in the DoW list itself would not have been sufficient.


and also irrelevant.

If the usage of Ogres as DOW has clear rules outlined in the Ogre Kingdom book, using another book (or a mere pdf file) to override or even verify this usage is incorrect.

I can name quite a few examples where such a mechanism of verification would lead to chaos but you probably can already do this yourself.

Kam
31-12-2007, 16:02
Ogre Bulls, Ironguts, Leadbelchers, and Maneaters are the only units that can be taken as dogs of war. However unlike other DoW units the OK units that can be taken do not have a restriction on what armies they can be used in. Every army in the warhammer world (except the proud Bretonnians) may take ogres from the OK armybook as a rare (or 2 rares for maneaters) without their opponents permission, and any army may take DoW units as a rare choice (or however many slots that specific unit takes up) without their opponents permission. This is exactly like how back in the day you needed your opponents permission to use special characters but now you may use special characters whenever you wish.

What most players are misunderstanding is the DoW rules say you may take units as a rare choice in armybooks that allow dogs of war. That rule actually means that you may take a DoW unit as a rare choice in your army ONLY IF your army is not restricted from using that specific unit. Ogre Kingdom DoW have no such restrictions and may be taken in any army in the world (except Bretonnians).

I have noticed a trend in the newer books, GW is removing a lot of limitations so people can make a larger variety of armylists, a good example is the Dwarfs and High Elf armybooks, all the 0-1 units have been removed, except for like.... rangers. This will allow for more unique armylists that is more suited towards the individual player's liking, and in the end....isnt that what its all about? Yea... so have fun.

Festus
31-12-2007, 16:09
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/dogsofwar/assets/dogs_of_war.pdf


Unfortunately, this little *gem* of yours is about the 6th Ed. Empire armybook and not the 7th Ed. AB we are discussing here...

...sorry to burst your bubble, but if you are looking for evidence, look further, there is nothing to see here.

Festus

Nephilim of Sin
31-12-2007, 16:16
......
2) Aren't you mixing up rules here like so many in this forum?
Ogres from Ogre Kingdoms have their own special rules. DOW from the pdf files also have their own rules. Taking one rule from one source and using it to verify the rules from another source is, as I'm sure you'll agree, incorrect and renders many rules unworkable......


Actually, we are not mixing up any rules. How is taking two books to get the rules making it obsolete? Yes, the OK have their own special rules. Please, please, please look again at the OK special rules. Then identify where on specified page (67, which all the other entries refer to) it states that the ARMY BOOK has to specify that they can take OK as DoW.

It doesn't. Instead, it states that an army able to take DoW as a rare choice. So what if we have to go to another army book to figure out which units can take DoW. That does not make it invalid in any since, whatsoever.

As you stated: OK have their own special rules. These direct you to find which armies can take DoW. DoW have thier own special rules. Among these, they identify which armies may take DoW. How is there anymore conflict on this subject?

Griefbringer
31-12-2007, 16:17
DeathlessDraich, I read through the quote you posted ("[army] with the option of taking Dogs of war as a Rare choice") multiple times, and even double-checked it with other posters who had quoted the same line on this thread.

As far as I can tell, all it says is that the army must have the option - I fail to see any restrictions as regards to how that option is given, ie. it does not need to be directly in the army book itself, as long as it exists in a valid source.

While the main options for an army are given in the army book itself, we have in the past seen armies given options through other means, such as the Storm of Chaos book (Hellcannons for Chaos armies etc.) and White Dwarf articles (mounted daemonettes, steam tanks, warrior-priests of Ulric, Dogs of War units).

Thus, the DoW army list can be a valid source for determining whether a particular army has "the option of taking Dogs of war as a Rare choice".

For comparison, we could see what wood elves army book says about them taking DoW units (I will quote the whole entry, just to be sure):

"Dogs of War Points/model: Variable

Dogs of War are mercenary units you can hire to supplement your army.

You may opt to choose a unit of Dogs of War as a Rare Unit Choice, unless otherwise stated in the Dogs of War unit's special rules."

Ganymede
31-12-2007, 16:21
@ Ganymede, accusations like yours are what makes me hesitant to participate in any discussion here on Warseer, and the rude, toxic environment keeps many away. Your post did nothing to add to the debate, you just indulged your mean-streak. I was not lying, only making my argument based on the information I had at the time. If you really wanted to prove your point you should have presented evidence.




I am a bad guy, but, you didn't read the rest of my post.

I was pointing out that there was absolutely no evidence to believe there needs to be a specific permission to take DoW within in individual armybook. I don't need evidence to point out that someone else's claim lacks any sort of backing. I can't very well provide a quote that proves something does not exist.

As for the last line of my post, as to whether or not the Empire could take DOW as a rare choice, the evidence concerning the answer was posted many, many times within this thread.

DeathlessDraich
01-01-2008, 10:38
As far as I can tell, all it says is that the army must have the option - I fail to see any restrictions as regards to how that option is given, ie. it does not need to be directly in the army book itself, as long as it exists in a valid source.
You may opt to choose a unit of Dogs of War as a Rare Unit Choice, unless otherwise stated in the Dogs of War unit's special rules."

Let me explain with an example why using the rules of army book (A) to explain a term in army book (B) is flawed and unacceptable:

Consider the term Undead:

1) TK uses this term and its Undead rules states that all Undead units cannot march
2) VC uses the same term, Undead but states that Undead units within range of the general can march.

It is obviously wrong to use the VC Undead rules to add/override the TK restriction on marching. Even though they use exactly the same term Undead, each rule refers to its specific army.

In the same way the term DOW is used in the pdf file rules and Ogre Kingdom rules but they cannot be used to complement or add to each other. I can come up with a few more examples but I'm sure you'll understand the point.

But, this is exactly the mechanism advocated here for DOW
- Use the DOW rules from the DOW pdf file to add to the Ogre Kingdom DOW rules.

The Ogre kingdom rules *do not* state their DOW rules "follow all DOW pdf file rules with the exception of ... [their rule above] or in addition to ... [their rule above]".

Therefore the DOW rules in the Ogre Kingdom book, pertain to Ogres only and must be treated as unique.

Festus
01-01-2008, 11:25
Therefore the DOW rules in the Ogre Kingdom book, pertain to Ogres only and must be treated as unique.
And we all treat them as such:

We follow just the rules in the OK book, which tell us to see if another army is allowed to hire DoW.

Where this permission comes from is neither a concern of the OK's rules nor one of ours: Empire is permitted to hire DoW, thus it can hire OK units as of the OK's rules.

Simple, innit? ;)

Festus

Griefbringer
01-01-2008, 12:06
Or to put it another way, the OK book (from what I have understood) does not provide a specific list on which armies have "the option of taking Dogs of war as a Rare choice" so we need to consult an external source for that, if we are to be able to take them at all.

Since no restriction is given on these external sources, I would treat all of them as equally valid for determining the issue - I see no reason to claim that a particular army book is more valid source than a Dogs of War army list.

DeathlessDraich
01-01-2008, 13:18
Empire is permitted to hire DoW, thus it can hire OK units as of the OK's rules.


If this is a rules quote, from what page is it? More below.**


Or to put it another way, the OK book (from what I have understood) does not provide a specific list on which armies have "the option of taking Dogs of war as a Rare choice" so we need to consult an external source for that, if we are to be able to take them at all..

1) The option of taking DOW appears in some army books and not others. If the option does not appear in the book and it is obtained from another source, then that source must say so. If an external source (this one?**) is to be part of the army book rules it must be clearly stated, that these rules apply officially to *all* Dogs of war.
[There are numerous additional DE rules and all of them clearly state that these additional rules are officially accepted and are to be appended to the current DE rules in the army book. Compare this with the pdf file which I'll quote below]

2) Which external source are you referring to? Not the one below** which does not contain the rules many are claiming.


Since no restriction is given on these external sources,

The source below?

** The pdf rules:
1) "other armies can field units from the field DOW *list* - N.B. * DOW list* and *not* any DOW.
2) "In addition the following restrictions apply"
3) "Empire etc... can field any unit from the DOW army *list*"

N.B. If this rule is the one many here are using, then they have omitted the word *list* and misintepreted the rule as a result.

There is an important difference between the 'DOW list' and the the Ogre Kingdom DOW which is *not* in the DOW list.

I'll just reiterate one last time and then I'll retire;)
Empire can field a unit from *the DOW list*

This is *not* permission to field Ogres from the Ogre Kingdom army book as DOW.

To field Ogre Kingdom units as DOW, refer to the Ogre Kingdom book only as there are no rules elsewhere governing their usage.

Festus
01-01-2008, 13:32
Sorry to say, DDraich, but you are speaking gibberish here:

Empire can field a unit from *the DOW list* is the permission to hire DoW, as a Rare, or as a Special in some cases. Or is it?

So the Empire has "the option of taking Dogs of war as a Rare choice". Or doesn't it?

So the prerequisite of the OK rule is fulfilled. They may then take OK units as DoW as well.

Well, as you are out, I am out. And I still do not see your point in differentiation between *option of fielding units from the DoW list* OTOH and *the option of taking DoW* on the other, as both are the same. :rolleyes:

Festus

Griefbringer
01-01-2008, 13:44
DeathlessDraich, now I think I manage to see what you are arguing for. Do I understand correctly that you are arguing that:

1.) Army that "can field units from the Dogs of War list ... as a rare choice" is NOT an "[army] with the option of taking Dogs of war as a Rare choice".

2.) Army that "may opt to choose a unit of Dogs of War as a Rare Unit Choice" is an "[army] with the option of taking Dogs of war as a Rare choice".

DeathlessDraich
01-01-2008, 13:58
Yes to (1). (2) sounds like tautology.:)

Masque
01-01-2008, 15:24
I've tried not to get involved. I've tried so hard...

All men are mortal.
Achilles is a man.
Therefore, Achilles is mortal.

Empire can take units from the DoW list.
Units from the DoW list are DoW units.
Therefore, Empire can take DoW units.

Armies that can take DoW units can take some OK units.
Empire can take DoW units.
Therefore, Empire can take some OK units.

Please let me know what part of my logic is flawed.

DeathlessDraich
01-01-2008, 17:47
Logic flaw - you've replaced a subset with a universal set in para 2
or in layman's terms
you've made the item 'DOW list' to include 'DOW' instead of the other way round. :p

Using another analogy:
I am sure you'll agree that 'book list' is a subset of 'book'
i.e. all elements in the subset 'book list' can be found in 'book'
but not all elements of 'book' can be found in the subset 'book list'.
Or in layman's terms - 'book' is more general and encompasses far more than 'book list'.


The word list restricts Empire etc from fielding any DOW other than the DOW from *the list* provided in the DOW army pdf file.
There is only *one list* and that does not include Ogre Kingdom Ogres but Golfags'.

My capacity for explanation is spent. This is my last post on the matter.:D

Kam
01-01-2008, 18:09
No... no logic flaw there. Dead on more like it.

HOWEVER

I think we can all agree that questions like this will be answered better and in more detail once the 7th ed OK armybook comes out.

Masque
01-01-2008, 18:32
Logic flaw - you've replaced a subset with a universal set in para 2
or in layman's terms
you've made the item 'DOW list' to include 'DOW' instead of the other way round. :p

I never said Empire can take all DoW units nor does the OK rules state that an army must be able to take all DoW units. Merely being able to take some DoW units is enough to satify the requirement in the OK book. It would be very silly indeed if the OK book said something like "Armies that can take any and all DoW units can take OK DoW units." That would be unnecessarily redundant.

Griefbringer
01-01-2008, 19:40
I think we can all agree that questions like this will be answered better and in more detail once the 7th ed OK armybook comes out.

That is rather optimistic thinking - at least if the said book will be authored by Anthony Reynolds and proof-read by the usual lot of blind-hamsters. :evilgrin:

Kam
01-01-2008, 21:09
lol

I try to be optimistic when it comes to improvements.... or should-be-improvements in armybooks.