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Helbracht
28-12-2007, 15:32
Now, I've "inherited" quite a few armies from friends that decided to no longer play, so I have no specific army in mind.

I was wondering if there was any general tactic to taking on Dwarf armies? The person I play most tends to use this army a lot, and I find that I almost never win against them. Regardless of what I try, I can never find any weakness.

Dwarfs have high LD, gunlines, amazing combat prowess, and uber magic defense.

On average I'll outnumber him with 1-2 units, but by the end of the 2nd turn I'll be lucky if I have those guys still with me. By the time I'm actually able to charge his line, I find that my units can't even stand up to the Dwarf axes.

And just as a note: we've actually banned the organ gun from our games, as it consistently just wipes out entire units (including characters), with little ill effect. = not fun.

Jack of Blades
28-12-2007, 16:07
You've got to be more specific. Asking ''How do I beat the dwarfs?'' is quite hard to answer.

Helbracht
28-12-2007, 16:23
Like I said, I use multiple armies and I'm not really looking for specifics. I mostly use Chaos (mortal), Orc&Goblins, and Elves (Dark and High). I suppose I'd most like to know how to beat them with O&G's.

But there must be some general strategies used against these guys. Blasting them with ungodly amounts of magic? Outnumbering? Lots of screens?

Here's a (very) rough list:

20x Orc Boyz

20x Orc Boyz

16x Black Orc

12x Wolf Riders

3x River Trolls

20x NG + 3x Fanatics

5x Boar Boyz

1x Boar Chariot

1x Giant

And then whatever characters I decide on.

Semi_Bunny
28-12-2007, 18:45
Well you either gotta play VP denial/guerilla warfare with him (which probably wont work with O&G and chaos) or come at him hard and fast.

With your elves and chaos bring DPs, chaos knights, and CoKs, with a BSB or combat heavy noble/character in the unit to hammer him with those and chariots as well as your elite infantry. Oh and a dragon is nice if you have one. This in my opinion is sort of like smashing two bricks together though and is almost more of a who's got the better units/dice roll-off and I'd get bored.

With the guerilla sort of tactics, bring a bunch of dark riders, 2-4 units of 5 depending on how many points the game is and whittle him down a little at a time. Shades/shadow warriors, small elite infantry units, and eagles and such for war machine hunters. Bring a decent amount of magic and go for lore of metal so you can use burning iron as an assassination spell on his characters, but bring some other spells to make him waste his dice on too. I wouldnt necessarily try to outshoot him with this tactic, but rather dont give him any targets. If you do this one correctly and deal with his copter if he brings one, you should atleast pull off a draw. I managed this against a dwarf gunline with my lizzies, because I diverted from my original throw all my troops at him plan.

With the O&Gs, I'm not quite sure what to tell you since I dont play with or against them much at all. good luck though.

That Guy
29-12-2007, 17:01
Dwarfs are insanely difficult to beat in a kill 'em all type engagement. However, if you start adding objectives to the games you play, the playing field levels out nicely.

The other day my Dwarfs crushed a Bretonnian army, but the game was a draw because he controlled two table quarters and contested the other one (one was unoccupied since I had deployed in a castle formation). I mean, I thought I had crushed him. All he had left was half a lance which I would have broken in another turn or two, a trebuchet, and half a unit of archers. But since I focused on killing him and thus didn't move all game, he was able to achieve the mission objectives.

Basically, Dwarfs are balanced because even though they dominate the shooting and close combat phases, they are basically worthless in the movement phase. And the movement phase is much more important in objective based games. So that's my best advice.

As for how to actually kill a lot of Dwarfs, well, that's really tricky. A good Dwarf player won't actually have any flanks to attack (castle formation!), or, if he does have flanks, he'll have them anchored with Slayers or Hammerers. So you'll want to use your light harassing units like Dark Riders and Wolf Riders to shoot the Slayers until they die and open up a flank. If you can then hit that flank with something REALLY hard (COK, Dragon Princes, Chaos Knights), you'll get a unit out of the way and if you get really lucky you can start to roll up his line. Your complete control of the movement phase makes it easy for you to get around him to pull this off.

Also: fliers. You need them. Period. Good Dwarf players protect their artillery by putting units in the way. Flyers can go right over these guys and go for the war machines. High Elves, that means Great Eagles. Dark, Harpies. Chaos, Screamers (if you really want all mortals, than do what I do: use Great Eagle models and Screamer rules; no one has complained to me yet). If you can keep your units intact to hit his flank (first, of course, you have to create a flank) you should be able to do some damage.

Jack of Blades
29-12-2007, 18:11
For the goblins, having lots of fanatics is a good idea. I'm talking lots of fanatics. Unless he has a Gyrocopter, he can't really sacrifice something to get them out. Dwarves don't like them.

And as was said, play objective based games and don't forget the terrain.

Urgat
29-12-2007, 18:38
Like I said, I use multiple armies and I'm not really looking for specifics. I mostly use Chaos (mortal), Orc&Goblins, and Elves (Dark and High). I suppose I'd most like to know how to beat them with O&G's.

But there must be some general strategies used against these guys. Blasting them with ungodly amounts of magic? Outnumbering? Lots of screens?

Here's a (very) rough list:

20x Orc Boyz

20x Orc Boyz

16x Black Orc

12x Wolf Riders

3x River Trolls

20x NG + 3x Fanatics

5x Boar Boyz

1x Boar Chariot

1x Giant

And then whatever characters I decide on.

First of all, I'll write it as it comes, so if I say "do this, do that, leave that", add the necessary "I think you should" in front of the sentences, I'm far from being the best O&G general out there I suppose, but I'm doing fairly well, so I may still share my opinions, at least :)

So here goes:

Mmmmh... first, i'd take these orcs and put them together. 40 orcs would take any canon shot and shrug it off, and you want them to reach combat.

The wolf riders... dunno, I don't see much use for them against dwarfs, to be honest (and I'm an absolute fan of them fast gits). What I'd do is take my usual two units of five with musicians, and throw them at the guns. In all honesty, I don't believe they'd be able to kill them, but I'd hope the opponent would think otherwise, and waste some shooting at them (and if you break them in two units, that's two targets to spend shots on, rather than one, which would be as easy to break anyway). Well, I'd favour gobs with just a musician and bows anyway.

The trolls. Welll, you have them, so if you're willing to spend some bucks, extend them to 5 trolls. River trolls are the best kind against dwarfs (I believe they're the best kind against anything anyway), and they will eat through anything. 5 trolls that vomit on ironbreakers will kill them as easily as they would slayers.
The blorcs... I'm sorry to say, but either I'd expand consistantly the unit, or leave it on the shelves altogether. 16 are not enough, they won't win combat against blocks or dwarfs, and won't spunge up incoming fire either. Free VP for your opponent imho.
I'd also scrap the boars, same reasoning as the blorcs. Sure they'd be an awesome flanking unit to support the main orc unit, but will they get there?

Charriots and giants are also perfect targets to dwarf canons, leave them home (sorry ><). Take lots of squigs instead, large units. They're night gob units, and therefore hate dwarfs. 2 S5 attacks per mini on a unit that hate its target, and immune to psychology, so they won't break from shooting. Squigs are the best weapons against dwarfs imho.

Then load up on large night gob units ' a couple if possible), 30+ minimum, and prefer netters to fanatics. Fanatics have little purpose against dwarfs. They're there to block movements, not to do damage, and dwarfs don't move. Instead, the fanatics will prevent you from moving, and that will be one free shooting phase for the dwarfs. Bad. So, I'd say, HW+shield night gobs with netters, you want them to hold, not kill things. The hatred is a bonus, but don't expect it'll change anything.
Finally, if you have some spare points, a rocklobber or a doomdiver work wonders against the stunties, if you're good with estimations.

Well, that's what I'd do, but I admit I don't have a great experience facing dwarfs, so take it with a pinch of salt, it's just brainstorming based on my experience with greenskins.