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Rattlehead
28-12-2007, 19:52
Hi
Just wondering how the flail of sculls will do against rank and file units?
Say I charge some black orcs and wound 3 of them, does 6 of them die or does 3 of them take dubble wounds (3 dies) if so what happens to the 3 "overkill" wounds? and what wounds do I count for combat resolution?

Thanks.

Griefbringer
28-12-2007, 20:05
Usual rules for multi-wound weapons apply: single hit only affects single model, you cannot cause more wounds on that model than it actually has, the extra wounds do not carry over and are not counted against combat resolution (for the last one there is an exception: challenges and overkill bonus).

So in the example given, 3 orcs die and you count +3 to combat resolution for the wounds caused. The extra wounds caused by the flail of skulls are ignored.

Asentaja
29-12-2007, 19:59
Not exactly. The Rules for Flail of Skulls say " Each unsaved wound becomes two wounds.". This means he will inflict 6 wounds instead of 3 to the Black Orcs.

If the wounded models would suffer 2 wounds each, it would say something like "models wounded by Flail of Skulls (after saves ect.) suffer an additional wound." as it says with weapons like Rending Sword (the additional wound being replaced by D3 wounds).

Warhammerrox
29-12-2007, 20:11
No, you suffer 1 wound.

You cannot lose more wounds than you have on your profile, and multiple wounds from 1 hit cannot be passed onto another model.

The F.O.S. has the potential to do double wounds on a target, but if the target only has 1 wound to lose then that is all that can be taken...

F.O.S. is best deployed against multi wound targets like Trolls, Ogres, a Chariot, enemy characters, a cannon, etc, as these models have more than 1 wound to lose.

Ganymede
30-12-2007, 01:18
It is also a nice weapon against champions in challenge, as those extra wounds which are normally ignored can rack up overkill.

vampires are cool!
30-12-2007, 01:49
As ever, Greifbringer is correct.

kroq'gar
30-12-2007, 08:16
What about when fighting rank and file with multiwounds, eg ogres.

would two wounds = 3 or 4

Festus
30-12-2007, 08:22
Against Ogres, the Wounds are doubled.

No Ogre can lose more than 3 Wounds, so the maximum is capped at 3 Wounds - per hit!

So if you hit twice and double those, the Ogres will lose 4 Wounds total, meaning one dead Ogre and one Wound carried over into another Ogre.

Best to think of units as pools of wounds, where the maximum which can be inflicted with one hit is capped at the number of W of the individual model. So Men 1W, Ogres max. 3W.

And Yes, Griefbringer is correct, as always :)

Festus

Asentaja
30-12-2007, 14:44
Blast... I thought that when fighting against a rank and file unit, the attacks are directed against the unit as a whole, not individual models... Well, my mistake.

Makaiju
31-12-2007, 04:47
Your not exactly wrong... you just didn't apply it correct.

A Tomb King has 4 attacks. So he attacks the enemy unit 4 times. Just like you thought. What the rules say about the fail is that each wound counts as two.

So each enemy model takes 2 wounds... but they (normally) only have 1. So the extra wound is wasted because you only count over kill wounds when you are doing a challenge.

So actually if you hit an ogre unit (and each ogre in that unit had 3 wounds) then you really have to be careful and watch your allocation.

If you caused 2 wounds, the FOS would double that and make 4 wounds but they all happen on the same model. Since it wasn't a challenge you don't get to keep the overkill wound. Instead you only get credit for doing 3 wounds.

If you caused 3 wounds, the FOS would still double the first 2 wounds and kill 1 ogre. However you don't get to carry that wound over to the ther model. So that second ogre in the unit is only affacted by 1 hit/wound roll. That one wound would still double but only inflict 2 wounds and leave the model alive with 1 wound remaining.

Ganymede
31-12-2007, 04:55
If you caused 2 wounds, the FOS would double that and make 4 wounds but they all happen on the same model. Since it wasn't a challenge you don't get to keep the overkill wound. Instead you only get credit for doing 3 wounds.

If you caused 3 wounds, the FOS would still double the first 2 wounds and kill 1 ogre. However you don't get to carry that wound over to the ther model. So that second ogre in the unit is only affacted by 1 hit/wound roll. That one wound would still double but only inflict 2 wounds and leave the model alive with 1 wound remaining.


This is not correct. You can not do more wounds than the number on a model's profile, not the current number of wounds.

Festus
31-12-2007, 09:22
Hi

So actually if you hit an ogre unit (and each ogre in that unit had 3 wounds) then you really have to be careful and watch your allocation.

If you caused 2 wounds, the FOS would double that and make 4 wounds but they all happen on the same model. Since it wasn't a challenge you don't get to keep the overkill wound. Instead you only get credit for doing 3 wounds.

If you caused 3 wounds, the FOS would still double the first 2 wounds and kill 1 ogre. However you don't get to carry that wound over to the ther model. So that second ogre in the unit is only affacted by 1 hit/wound roll. That one wound would still double but only inflict 2 wounds and leave the model alive with 1 wound remaining.
Your exactly wrong: Each hit can cause 2 Wounds and will if it wounds, as an Ogre has 3 W on his profile.
What you are thinking of is removal of models: After W have been caused, you remove whole models where possible up to the number of W already suffered. The rest of the W stick with the unit.

So if you hit 4 times, wound 4 times and double 4 times, you will cause 8 W to any unit which has more than 1W in its profile (the others will only suffer 4W, as the W cannot be doubled). Those 8 W will be satisfied by removing 2 Ogres (6W) and carrying over a further 2W. Should any Ogre already suffered a W which the unit carries along, another Ogre would be removed.
It is the rules - do it like this: A unit is a pool of W, not a model in a unit.

Festus

Makaiju
31-12-2007, 11:10
possibly I'm not giving enough detail or there is a word or two I'm missing in my description.

I'm refering to page 31 of the main rule book that talks about 'multiple wound casualites'.

It gives both a generic description and then gives an example of a multiple wound causing item. (The Cannon)

In the example, the cannon hits 3 ogres. *note I said hit first* The player then determines all three ogres are wounded by the hit. Most weapons that do a single hit would cause a single wound. Howeve ther cannon ball does D6 wounds. (2nd note: yes, cannons can do D3 or D6 wounds. It depends on the shot type but in the brb example it's the D6 version.) So the example says the first ogre takes 2 wounds. The second ogre takes 2 wounds. The third ogre takes 6 wounds. The book then says "only count 3 wounds for on the third ogre, since that is the maximum a single ogre can suffer." The book then says you remove one ogre as dead (the one who took 3 wounds) and mark two others as having taken 2 wounds.

The Flail of Skulls does say "each unsaved wound becomes 2 wounds"... but as stated in other sections of the book, doing more wounds to a modem then the model as profile wounds is ignored unless the character is in a challenge.

Page 76 is that part I think you're refering too. That says if a model has 4 attacks but is only in base contact with 2 models, it can still kill 4 models (Assuming that all 4 attacks would causing killing wounds). The idea being that a single attack kills a model and another enemy model steps up and fills the dead mans spot... so another attack would kill that new model.

So we aren't that far off on our ideas.... each hit causes that wounds would cause 2 wounds. To a unit of regular troops (regular meaning single wound models) you only kill 4 models.

However... I do believe you are only allowed to let the wounds from each attack affect 1 model. Meaning hit an ogre with 1 hit and that hit ends up wounding, then the ogre takes 2 wounds... but... hit an ogre with 2 hits and both hits wound then the ogre takes 3 wounds and the extra one (the 4th wound) is discarded as it's more then the number of wounds on the models profile.

If not... then I don't see why hitting a regular unit with 4 hits that causes multiple wounds wouldn't also spill over to other models.

Griefbringer
31-12-2007, 12:00
The book then says you remove one ogre as dead (the one who took 3 wounds) and mark two others as having taken 2 wounds.


That is not what my book says. It states:

"The unit has therefore suffered a total of 7 wounds (2+2+3) so the player removes two ogres (3 wounds each), and records that the unit has suffered one additional wound."


hit an ogre with 2 hits and both hits wound then the ogre takes 3 wounds and the extra one (the 4th wound) is discarded as it's more then the number of wounds on the models profile.


This would be true if you were fighting a single ogre. However, when you are fighting a unit, you are essentially attacking a "fresh" ogre with every new hit, and the wound suffered is not kept by any individual model but by the unit collectively.

Edit: to summarise the whole concept, it works roughly as follows:

- Wounds that do not lead to direct casualty removal are not kept by individual models, but by the unit as a collective whole ("a pool of wounds").
- As long as there is more than one model remaining, every hit is considered to be directed against a fresh, unwounded model (due to the previously suffered wounds being kept collectively).
- Single hit can not cause more wounds than a single model in the target unit has in the profile, and thus cannot lead to removal of more than one casualty.
- Whenever the number of wounds collectively suffered by the unit reaches the amount of wounds that a single model has in its profile, a casualty should be removed.

Festus
31-12-2007, 12:39
"The unit has therefore suffered a total og 7 wounds (2+2+3) so the player removes two ogres (3 wounds each), and records that the unit has suffered one additional wound."

...

Edit: to summarise the whole concept, it works roughly as follows:



Best to think of units as pools of wounds, where the maximum which can be inflicted with one hit is capped at the number of W of the individual model. So Men max. 1W, Ogres max. 3W.

Well, it doesn't change, really, does it? ;)

Festus

Griefbringer
31-12-2007, 13:10
Festus, I think your "pool of wounds" summary describes the issue perfectly, I just wanted to split the concept into smaller components to show how that result is reached.

Actually, the "pool of wounds" explanation is so splendid that it should be in the rulebook.

Festus
31-12-2007, 13:23
Hi

Yes, I know that you understand the issue perfectly, Griefbringer. I just wanted to drive the point home to Makaiju - it is quite simple once you see the principle that it is not *one Ogre stepping forward to die and then the next Ogre comes to die* and so on, but that the unit as a whole suffers wounds.

Festus

Makaiju
31-12-2007, 22:43
I guess I just don't understand why the rule on 'excess wounds' in the book says to do it differently then a 'pool of wounds in the unit'. Is there a page that says 'use this rule for multiple wound models' that should over right the basic excess wound rule that talks about models with multiple wounds?

I 100% understand what you are telling me... just not what rules you are siting that over rule the basic rule book explanation of doing wounds to a unit where the models have excess wounds. Please assist??

Masque
31-12-2007, 23:00
Makaiju, please re-read the ogre vs cannon example on page 31. If you still think only one ogre dies please quote the relative line.

kroq'gar
01-01-2008, 00:21
there is no relative line to quote as the only example given is a shooting hit (cannon), and not a multi wound attack where 1 wound = 2.

Griefbringer
01-01-2008, 12:21
Makaiju, please re-read the ogre vs cannon example on page 31. If you still think only one ogre dies please quote the relative line.

And especially the paragraph before it, that explains the issue quite clearly.

Important thing to remember is that each of the attacks is resolved independently of each other (even though you might be rolling for all of them simultaneously).

Asentaja
01-01-2008, 13:00
How about when you are targeting the champion of the unit? The excess wounds are carried on to the unit (according to my memory, don't have BRB at hand) which could lead to misuse of the Flail or other weapons that cause multiple wounds. Is there any clarification for this in the rulebook?

Griefbringer
01-01-2008, 13:12
If you target a champion, the excess wounds do not carry over to the unit, so this is not really an issue.

The best way to use multi-wound weapons against champions is to challenge them, so you get the overkill bonus to CR.

Makaiju
02-01-2008, 12:39
That is not what my book says. It states:

"The unit has therefore suffered a total of 7 wounds (2+2+3) so the player removes two ogres (3 wounds each), and records that the unit has suffered one additional wound."



This would be true if you were fighting a single ogre. However, when you are fighting a unit, you are essentially attacking a "fresh" ogre with every new hit, and the wound suffered is not kept by any individual model but by the unit collectively.


Thank you. That's what I was looking for. In that description you refer to the player roles 10 wounds but can only do 7 because it says 6 wounds were rolled against a single ogre and in turn you can only get credit for 3 of them. Once that is determined I 100% agree with you.

what I don't see clearly stated is the "why does ever hit get to be against a fresh ogre?" 1 hit won't kill an ogre and in turn why would that ogre get out of the way and let you hit someone else? I mean a regular fight a Tomb King will only ever be in contat with 2 ogres at a time. So should the TK only be allowed to hit 2 ogres until one (or both) of those ogres dies? I can just say I honestly see the rules being read either way. On saying you can hit 4 ogres reguardless of base contact... and one that says have to hit and kill the model before you can allocate hits another model.

Other wise we are understanding the rules the same. *confirmation example* If this item didn't do an extra wound but instead each wounding hit caused D6 wounds... then 4 wounding hits that rolled 1, 2, 2, & 6 (a total of 11 wounds rolled) on 4 different models would end up only really doing 8 wounds and killing 2 models and puting a wound on one other.

My only question is... would that be allowed? The cannon example the book gives is not good because it clearly affects wounds on different models even if it doesn't kill the first model it hits. The Hand to Hand section says "do wounds (or casualties) like shooting." So that doesn't help either.

It does say you can only allocate hits against a charcter model if that model is in Base to Base contact but I see no clear rule that you can't put them against other models. Maybe the rule about killing the standar barer... it says that the reason the unit still has it's standard is that a regular warrior steps up into the dead models place and picks up the standard... but is that enough to decide on the rule either way?


PS

Man... there are a ton of posts while I was away celebrating the holiday. If a bunch of people all ready said this, sorry.

Masque
02-01-2008, 13:37
Other wise we are understanding the rules the same. *confirmation example* If this item didn't do an extra wound but instead each wounding hit caused D6 wounds... then 4 wounding hits that rolled 1, 2, 2, & 6 (a total of 11 wounds rolled) on 4 different models would end up only really doing 8 wounds and killing 2 models and puting a wound on one other.

Either you still don't quite understand, made a math error, or made a typo. The hits in your new hypothetical would be reduced to 1, 2, 2, and 3 wounds (against 3 wound models) which is 8 wounds. That means 2 models would be removed and the other 2 wounds be dealt to the unit.

When hits/wounds are directed at a unit you never, ever, ever worry about exactly which models are being hit. There is no question as to whether you hit one guy twice or two different guys. You just total up how many wounds were caused and apply them to the unit as a whole.

Griefbringer
02-01-2008, 14:05
what I don't see clearly stated is the "why does ever hit get to be against a fresh ogre?" 1 hit won't kill an ogre and in turn why would that ogre get out of the way and let you hit someone else?

Remember that the close combat rules are heavily abstracted.

The rules-wise important issue here is that the wounds that do not lead to the removal of a casualty are not kept by any individual model, but are carried over to the unit as a whole ("pool of wounds") - thus there is no single specific wounded ogre that could (or would have to) be targeted with a new attack.

Makaiju
02-01-2008, 16:16
Either you still don't quite understand, made a math error, or made a typo. The hits in your new hypothetical would be reduced to 1, 2, 2, and 3 wounds (against 3 wound models) which is 8 wounds. That means 2 models would be removed and the other 2 wounds be dealt to the unit.

When hits/wounds are directed at a unit you never, ever, ever worry about exactly which models are being hit. There is no question as to whether you hit one guy twice or two different guys. You just total up how many wounds were caused and apply them to the unit as a whole.

I'm not sure where we are loosing communication now because you are repeating what I say to explain to me what I should have said.

I said:

"then 4 wounding hits that rolled 1, 2, 2, & 6 (a total of 11 wounds rolled) on 4 different models would end up only really doing 8 wounds and killing 2 models and puting a wound on one other."

in my example you roll a D6 and per the weapons rule you do that many wounds. One of he models hits rolled a 6. I then point out that if all you did was add up the number of wounds that the weapons math says it should create, that would be 11 wounds. However... and this is the key... there is a different rule called "Excess Wounds" that says no weapon can inflict more wounds on a rank and file model then are listed on the models Wound profile. So even though the die roll says the weaon should have caused 6 wounds, the over riding rule reduced the number wounds inflicted on that model to 3. This lead to a total from all 4 wounding hits to be 8 wounds. That would then be two dead ogres and 1 wounded ogre.


*Important Note* I'm the TK player in my group. I'm the one who actually likes the FOS. I am the one who is saying my prefered weapon should do less damage against ogres then others are telling me. I'm not saying any of this to try and hurt/screw over the Tomb King players.... I just honest don't think the rules are clear and the fuzzy reading I see says I do less damage. *end Note*

I read the 'pool of wounds' example in the book several times and it is always reads that the rule only applies to single hit wounds. Each wording talks about 'a' hit that causes more then 1 wound. That I understand. The 1 example they give of a multiple hits affecting multiple targets seems to hinge on the idea of the wounding weapon having a specail rule about who it hits. (Cannons hit one model per rank the cannon's path crosses.)

Makaiju
02-01-2008, 16:19
Remember that the close combat rules are heavily abstracted.

The rules-wise important issue here is that the wounds that do not lead to the removal of a casualty are not kept by any individual model, but are carried over to the unit as a whole ("pool of wounds") - thus there is no single specific wounded ogre that could (or would have to) be targeted with a new attack.

that's not the part I'm having problems understanding. Pool of wounds is an easy concept and I can deal with that.

I don't see in the rules anything that lets me believe I am allowed to hit 4 seperate models with my attacks.

I also don't see any rule that says I can not hit 4 seperate models with my attacks.

theunwantedbeing
02-01-2008, 16:25
Multiple wounds just roll to hit and see how many wounds they cause before multiplying, and then you multiply wounds and remove models in accordance to how many casualties are caused.

eg. With the FoS you do 2 wounds per wound, so 3 wounds = 6 wounds in total, so 2 ogres die.

Makaiju
02-01-2008, 16:32
I guess this doesn't sit right with me because of the use of "pool of wounds" in reference to removing models in a unit with 1 wound or more then 1 wound.

If what you are saying is correct then I believe you should do 3 wounds, they double to 6 wounds, and you remove 6 goblins. However everyone seems to agree with me that the answer to that example is no.

Festus
02-01-2008, 18:14
I'm not sure where we are loosing communication now because you are repeating what I say to explain to me what I should have said.Maybe it is your less than average grasp of Arithmetics in you original post? ;)


Other wise we are understanding the rules the same. *confirmation example* If this item didn't do an extra wound but instead each wounding hit caused D6 wounds... then 4 wounding hits that rolled 1, 2, 2, & 6 (a total of 11 wounds rolled) on 4 different models would end up only really doing 8 wounds and killing 2 models and puting a wound on one other.



2 Ogres x 3W each is 6 Wounds.
8W caused - 6W on 2 Ogres is 2W left,

so there is an unit of Ogres carrying two (2) Wounds around...

You rectified this in the last post, though:
...This lead to a total from all 4 wounding hits to be 8 wounds. That would then be two dead ogres and 1 wounded ogre.

That's why he said:
Either you still don't quite understand, made a math error, or made a typo.

See?

Festus

edit: And BTW: What is so hard to understand in: One (1) hit can cause up to the number of Wounds the creature attacked originally has?
This seems to be problematic for you, hence the :

If what you are saying is correct then I believe you should do 3 wounds, they double to 6 wounds, and you remove 6 goblins. However everyone seems to agree with me that the answer to that example is no.The trick is that it is only three (3) hits doing the wounding, so maximum up to 3 x (No of Wounds on creature = 1) 1 = 3 Wounds caused.

Makaiju
02-01-2008, 21:24
See?

Festus

edit: And BTW: What is so hard to understand in: One (1) hit can cause up to the number of Wounds the creature attacked originally has?
This seems to be problematic for you, hence the :
The trick is that it is only three (3) hits doing the wounding, so maximum up to 3 x (No of Wounds on creature = 1) 1 = 3 Wounds caused.

Just a typo... you should see the guys who get mad because I type their names incorrectly... several times, in one post.... and each reference is typoed different.

Your edit isn't really hard for me to understand. in fact I understand it 100%. What I think is bending (or cheating) the rules is saying that you can get 4 hits on 4 different ogres when you know the TK can never have more then 2 ogres in Base to Base contact.

I believe the TK has to allocate 2 hits per ogre to kill him... if the TK hits twice and then rolls 2 wounds on that ogre, then the ogre would only suffer 3 wounds. (The 4th would be a discarded as an excess wound.)

what I'm being told is to just assume I can hit 4 seperate ogres and that would mean 4 wounds would become 8 and end up killing 2 full ogres... and put "two" wounds on another one. (unless I made another typo.)

This is just a wording issue that GW has historicly sucked at.

In fact the wording isn't really the wounds... I understand excess wounds. What's making me feeling you guys are wrong is the rules for allocating hits against a unit. I feel it's losely described and the rule is being bent to make the FOS more powerful then it should be.

Ganymede
02-01-2008, 21:30
I believe the TK has to allocate 2 hits per ogre to kill him... if the TK hits twice and then rolls 2 wounds on that ogre, then the ogre would only suffer 3 wounds. (The 4th would be a discarded as an excess wound.)

what I'm being told is to just assume I can hit 4 seperate ogres and that would mean 4 wounds would become 8 and end up killing 2 full ogres... and put "two" wounds on another one. (unless I made another typo.)


Are you saying that you can't kill more models than you are in base contact with?

theunwantedbeing
02-01-2008, 21:40
He seems to be implying that.
Which is of course false, a model can kill more models than he is in base contact with.

If he has been playing that way then he may have had problems vs certain armies, real problems lol.

Page 36 of the rulebook
you can kill more than you are in base contact with.

Makaiju
02-01-2008, 22:05
If you kill a model out right, yes. You can keep killing. That makes sense to me and anyone who reads the book... ok, not all newbies but they catch on quick.

but again, you are both jumping the converstaiton to "kill".

I can't attack characters not in base to base contact. If I am being flanked, only models in base to base contact with each enamy unit can attack said units. Only the number of models in my unit that are in base to base contact with my enemy can attack that enemy unit.

if you 'can' attack a unit and you do several wounds, you remove those models from the wounded unit. Per the rules you take them from the back to represnt you killing the guy up front and other rushing up and filling the front rank. Per that fluff description... and that's the part the annoys me.. it's fluff... but we all know that GW "does" put rules in the fluff sometimes... then again, they sometimes put things in the fluff that are contradicted by the words full wording. That is annoying.

So if that description of the rule is correct... that descrition that is in the basic rule book... then shouldn't a models in base to base contact with you have to die before you can inflict hits on the models behind them?

See? I'm not asking 'can I hit more then one model'. I'm not asking 'how do excess wounds work against a multi wound unit'. I'm asking.... "with the way the rule book describes allocating hits against a unit, where does it say you can 100% place all 4 hits against 4 different enemies even if you can't kill one of those models with a single blow."

Masque
02-01-2008, 22:09
Makaiju, you just need to remember that combat is abstracted at least to some degree. The number of attacks a model has does not directly equate to how many time it swings it's sword/axe/whatever.

Ganymede
02-01-2008, 22:15
where does it say you can 100% place all 4 hits against 4 different enemies even if you can't kill one of those models with a single blow."

It doesn't say this. This is just a strawman.

Wounds go onto the unit, not individual models.

Makaiju
02-01-2008, 22:19
I can agree with that and if that's what the rules say... I know they do to some extent too.

I just feel like I'm cheating people... or ogre players... if I rack up all those wounds with weapon that was really meant to be a character killer and not a unit killer.

Makaiju
02-01-2008, 22:24
It doesn't say this. This is just a strawman.

Wounds go onto the unit, not individual models.

That's not 100% true.... and why I'm really ready to just give up. I'm getting stuck in an 'apples' versus 'pears' agrument.

This isn't about how to allocate wounds. This is about 'can I create the wound'. The rule book only gives the cannon example. If a cannon hits a model and you role D6 to determine the number of wounds... then you don't have to worry about what you roll against goblins troops. Because basic goblins only ever have 1 wound and you can not get 'overkill wounds' when you hit that model. Even if you hit an ogre with the cannon and rolled a 6, you can only get credit for doing 3 wounds. The other three are thrown away.... not rolled over in a 'pool of wounds' and put into another ogre.

In short I feel like I'm constantly asking "how many apples am I allowed to eat" and everyone's response is "you can eat as many pears as you like."

Well that doesn't answer my question but thanks for trying.

Ganymede
02-01-2008, 23:08
Isn't the cannon example succinct enough?


Three wounds are inflicted with the first, two with the second, and two with the third. Even though the latter two hits would not necessarily kill a lone ogre, they are pooled together to result in one additional casualty and a remaining wound. Melee based multi-wound weapons operate in the exact same way.

Warhammerrox
03-01-2008, 01:44
Makaiju...

It is weird how it works out but this is the procedure under 7th ed rules. As far as I can remember it worked differently in 6th ed? I don't recall it being a 'wound pool' concept?

I think they have turned it into a 'pool of wounds' concept to limit the power of Multi Attack-Multi Wound Creatures (MA-MW C) in cc...

As you know, if you are faced with 3 rank and file troopers, these 3 men have a pool of 3 wounds between them and are capable of delivering 3 attacks, now you know that if you remove 2 of the 3 men you theoreticaly remove 2 wounds and 2 attacks from the equation, it leaves only 1 'wound' to strike back, this is hardly a threat. Now translate that to a MA-MW C like a Troll, when you remove 2 wounds the creature is still able to hit back with the power of the 3 men, the Troll has lost none of its fighting potential even though it is on it's dying breath...

Now, if you are in base to base with 2 Trolls and you have the ability to deliver 4 wounds from 2 attacks you might place 1 attack on each Troll and deliver 2 wounds to each Troll, but this would leave both Trolls on 1 wound each yet able to strike back with the force of 6 men...

Being a MA-MW C is a powerful boon, so it has to be evened out to a degree or else you would never get any Trolls down as the whole front rank of the Trolls would be on 1 wound each but would destroy your unit in return due the sheer number of attacks back.

The concept of killing more troops than you can is the principle that you are forcing your way into the enemy formation striking in all directions. It's easy to understand in the concept of 1 attack = 1 wound, you have 10 attacks, you hit with 10, you wound with 10, the opponent fails 10 armour saves, the enemy have not formed an orderly queue to jump on your sword, you have dived in the centre of his formation and stuck it to 10 men, this is why you can kill more men than you are in direct base contact with...

The principle of applying the wounds as a 'pool' and taking off whole models where appropriate makes MA-MW C balanced in cc.

I suggest that for a test subject, that next time you play a friend who uses MA-MW C that you say you will only wound what you can touch and that you will not add wounds in a 'pool' and you will only lay down wounds on what is eligable, then see how those Ogres or whatnot crucify you on the return hits.

grishnakh99
03-01-2008, 02:29
@Makaiju:

I believe what you're trying to say is you need a minimum of 2 hits to fell a single ogre. As you only have 4 attacks, then the most you should be able to slay is 2 ogres. You're also trying to say you can't do more damage than a model has. So after the first wounding from a Flail of Skulls, the Ogre model has a single wound left. With your next attack, you do two wounds; how can one of these wounds kill the Ogre and the other carry over onto another one? If an Ogre model has only a single wound left, and you do two wounds, how is that different than a goblin with a single wound taking two wounds? Why in the ogre example is that extra wound carried over to a second model, where in the goblin example it isn't?

Well, the answer is, it just is. The only rules that apply is that 1) you can't do more wounds to a unit than a single model has wounds and 2) all wounds get dumped into a pool. Doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense according to number of attacks and wounds caused.

Even if you hit an ogre with the cannon and rolled a 6, you can only get credit for doing 3 wounds. The other three are thrown away.... not rolled over in a 'pool of wounds' and put into another ogre.
The excess wounds PER Model are thrown away. The rest go into a pool. If you hit 4 ogres in a row, and do 2 wounds each with a cannon... 2 die and there's another with 1 wound left. I think the reason they do this is to simplify combat and eliminating keeping track of wounds per model. All you have to know is that one of the ogres is wounded, you don't need to know/remember which one.
Edit: Also as Warhammerrox says, if it didn't work this way, it would not hamper the combat effectiveness of MA-MW Creatures.

Your example IS applicable, if you allocate wounds onto an Ogre champion with 3 wounds. You would need to dump 2 attacks (4 wounds) into him to kill him, and then 4 more wounds would be dumped into the unit.


Wounds go onto the unit, not individual models.
That's not 100% true....
Actually it's 100% true. All wounds get dumped into the unit. The only limitation is that you cannot cause more wounds with a single attack than the model has. Not has left. This is an important distinction.

Festus
03-01-2008, 07:47
Hi

This isn't about how to allocate wounds. This is about 'can I create the wound'.
I think we all se your point there.

But in all honesty, this is too much concerned with the specific models representing the close-combat-situation on the tabletop.
If it were this way, I would play it that way too, but then you had to chage the way the effect of W is a pllied to units as well: You would have to keep track of the individual W of each single member of the Ogre unit.

But as the player removes complete models whenever possible, there is no mechanism in the rules to differentiate between the various Ogres in the unit (exception: Characters and Champions, following Character's rules there). So the only way to regard the unit of multi-wound creatures is a s a pool of wounds, where you remove one model as soon as the possibility appears.

Festus

Griefbringer
03-01-2008, 08:18
This is about 'can I create the wound'.

And the answer according to the rules would be "Yes".

This is due to the fact that after every single hit, the wounds suffered that lead did not lead to casualty removal are carried over to the unit, thus there is never a wounded ogre in base-to-base contact with the tomb king. Thus, the tomb king can neither choose to nor can be forced to attack such wounded ogre - he effectively always attacks a fresh ogre, with the wounds carried over to the unit where they lead to the removal of casualties.

Essentially, the close combat is abstracted, there is no micro-tracking of the wounds within the units (except for champions and characters).