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MrP
28-12-2007, 20:47
Does anyone have any concrete statistics on the destructive energy of Navy weaponry? As in "a Lance produces x gigatons of firepower in a single shot and has a rate of fire of 5 shots a minute." The subject of the Galactic Empire's fleet vs. the Imperium's fleet has come up on another board (http://alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=79863), and while we have got canon figures for Star Wars weaponry and defensive shielding, we are a bit lacking in the same for the 40k-verse.

As usual in sci-fi debates, people are getting a bit hot under the collar over there, so if you're the type to get angry about an uncertain emotive issue, do remember to breathe and count to ten. ;)

Anyway, all help greatly appreciated! :)

Mr_Rose
28-12-2007, 21:12
No such concrete numbers exist, partially because such things as "lance strikes" get widely varying descriptions in both the fluff and game rules.

For instance, Imperial ship-ship torpedoes are the size of a small apartment block and are powered by a plasma drive that is also the primary warhead. Now, as we all know, Imperial plasma technology is essentially magnetically contained stellar fusion, so in theory each warhead should have a nominal yield in the tera-ton equivalent plus range, but they still only do a single point of damage to a warship if they hit.

"Lances" are normally described as either titanic laser weapons or commensurately sized melta-weapons, arranged in batteries that fire together on a single target. Each shot from one of these batteries is apparently capable of equivalent damage to a torpedo strike but it is not explained whether this is due to raw power or the fact that plasma torpedoes are explosive devices whilst lances are directed energy weapons.

Even worse are the horribly generic "weapon batteries" which cover literally anything from immense broadsides of lower-powered/less accurate laser fire through sophisticated gravity-well based mass drivers hurling big ol' rocks all the way on down to what amounts to immense artillery with bores in the tens of metres firing shells the size of tanks literally filled with timed high explosives.

And then you get to the tabletop rules; variously, Lances, melta-torpedoes and barrage bombs have been described as being deployed from orbiting starships in both 40K and Epic. Unfortunately it is apparent that firing into atmosphere severely attenuates both the firepower and accuracy of a lance, and the melta-torpedo and barrage bomb don't really resemble any normal ship-to-ship weapon, so even these numbers can't really be extrapolated.

MrP
28-12-2007, 21:23
Ah, that's a bit of a bugger. Well, thanks anyway, Mr Rose. :)

Burnthem
28-12-2007, 21:25
horribly generic

This pretty much sums up the weaponry found on starships in 40K, unfortunately the BFG side of things is a bit neglected when it comes to rock hard facts, you can get ship sizes and thats about it :(

Just one thing to keep in mind with the old Imperium vs Star Wars/Trek thing, even the smallest ship in 40K is larger than a Star Destroyer and about 100 times larger than a Galaxy class Trek Ship. Ok, maybe not exactly, but they are ALOT bigger, and bigger = better :D

CELS
28-12-2007, 21:54
Although it's kind of a good thing that GW hasn't published too much data about Imperial warships, really. We do know the size of the ships, but I also believe we have enough information to estimate the scale of BFG, which would give us information about the range of different weapons and the speed and acceleration of their ships. But it's been a damn long time since I discussed that stuff.

Baaltharus
28-12-2007, 22:31
The fleets of 40k would annihilate their opposite numbers in star wars/trek. Not only is the Imperial Navy so much larger than either of these but a Star Destroyer for instance is the size of a Cobra destroyer, one of the smallest ships in the Imperial Navy.

The fire from a 40k capital ship would slaughter pretty much anything from the other two universes (imo).

icegreentea
28-12-2007, 23:44
you can't win against star wars crazy people. they just bring up the star forge, and BAM, all of a sudden it's impossible to argue. Goddamn star forge.

CELS
29-12-2007, 00:30
And even then, "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force", so it's a lose-lose situation :)

Jimbobjeff
29-12-2007, 09:19
Grey knights would kick any jedi's ass mind.......

Sojourner
29-12-2007, 09:31
The firepower in SW rapidly becomes absurd, however. In places it's been suggested that a star destroyer can direct the entire power output of a small star entirely via its laser batteries for a short period, and dissipates more energy in a single hyperspace jump than a planetary civilisation uses in its entire lifetime. A single star destroyer is apparently capable of completely destroying said planetary civilisation in a matter of hours. They come up with these numbers, and they're nonsensical. It does, however, mean they stand a fighting chance against the Imperium.

Burnthem
29-12-2007, 10:24
The firepower in SW rapidly becomes absurd, however. In places it's been suggested that a star destroyer can direct the entire power output of a small star entirely via its laser batteries for a short period, and dissipates more energy in a single hyperspace jump than a planetary civilisation uses in its entire lifetime. A single star destroyer is apparently capable of completely destroying said planetary civilisation in a matter of hours. They come up with these numbers, and they're nonsensical. It does, however, mean they stand a fighting chance against the Imperium.

However, we have the entire literary imagination of a load of Black Library authors at our disposal, and they're known for going over the top when it suits them :)

Seriously though, both sides in this 'discussion' (argument) could keep citing precedents for thier particular viewpoint all day long. There is no possible way to win against a Star Wars Fanboy who is determined that a Star Destroyer is the absolute pinnacle of human achievement in any universe, anywhere.

Of course, we all know that the Imperium would stomp the Empire into the ground without a moments hesitation, dont we ? ;)

Sojourner
29-12-2007, 10:49
Of course, neither compares to Iain M. Banks' Culture, whose General Systems Vehicles could accidentally annihilate planets by braking too hard, and are known to have done so. The last proper war they had resulted in 851 billion dead and 91 million ships, 53 planets, 1 ringworld and 3 dyson spheres destroyed - and that was on the winning side.

Burnthem
29-12-2007, 11:17
Yes, we all know a single GSV would pawn everybody, at least thats beyond repute! :D Although i bet theres somebody that believes a Star Detroyer would still give one a hard time :)

athamas
29-12-2007, 11:54
i must say i love how they talk about power output without actually thinking about how silly that amount of power would be,

also, the shere impossiblities of the rate of production listed is amusing...


then there is the scales involed, and the fact that hyperdrive just works... which it cant do.. at least in the way i have seen described... [they break relativity... at least star trek semi explains it, 40k get around it with the warp, B5 has hyperspace which is basicly the warp...]

i do remember seeing in the films that the star destroyers [i think thats what they are called] had numerous short ranged guns for taking out fighters and the like, and tended to get quite close to pummle enemy ships...

shipe in BFG are designed to kill things from a few 1000Km away... with lance shots... or braodsides...


and the SW universe hardly has any proper shields... [most of thier stuff is deflectors designed to deflect the incoming shot as most of what is being fiered is energy] i would like to see how they would fair against a braodside of reactive warheads fiered from a swordclass

Chaos and Evil
29-12-2007, 13:00
Yep, the Culture wins every time.

WallyTWest
29-12-2007, 13:29
Yea, the problem is that each genre of science fiction shows a completely different version of starship combat. The ships and starship culture of BFG and SW are so fundamentally incompatible that its pretymuch pointless to argue. It’s like comparing civil war and ww2 tactics and asking who would win. Or something like listing the reasons why Grant/Cornwallis would have made a poor feudal warlord. (I think he would have made an awesome one personally)

MrP
30-12-2007, 00:23
i must say i love how they talk about power output without actually thinking about how silly that amount of power would be,

also, the shere impossiblities of the rate of production listed is amusing...


then there is the scales involed, and the fact that hyperdrive just works... which it cant do.. at least in the way i have seen described... [they break relativity... at least star trek semi explains it, 40k get around it with the warp, B5 has hyperspace which is basicly the warp...]

i do remember seeing in the films that the star destroyers [i think thats what they are called] had numerous short ranged guns for taking out fighters and the like, and tended to get quite close to pummle enemy ships...

shipe in BFG are designed to kill things from a few 1000Km away... with lance shots... or braodsides...


and the SW universe hardly has any proper shields... [most of thier stuff is deflectors designed to deflect the incoming shot as most of what is being fiered is energy] i would like to see how they would fair against a braodside of reactive warheads fiered from a swordclass

In fairness to ISDs, we never see 'em in a regular fleet battle onscreen.

In ESB they're not facing a fleet, but a bevy of refugee ships. In RotJ they're up against an opponent who is deliberately engaging them at unusally close range in order to make it harder for DSII to get off a safe shot.

Hell, even in RotS the Venators aren't in a regular battle, since they're desperately closing on Grievous' flagship in an attempt to get close enough to rescue old Palpy.

A LOT of the written stuff in the EU is about small scale conflicts and Rogue or Wraith Squadrons, so the power of fighters relative to capships is exaggerated for dramatic effect. Which is a bit of a bugger. At least in 40k we do have proper fleet on fleet battles. Aside from the computer game Supremacy/Rebellion, there's no comparable SW source. :(

Brother Siccarius
30-12-2007, 01:12
And even then, "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force", so it's a lose-lose situation :)

Until the force saves a guy stuck on a planet about to be destroyed, it's easier said than practiced.

Or lets a guy destroy a planet on his own....
Or allows him to become a mighty demon prince that burns and subjugates planets while distilling souls and victims into a powerful elixir that makes him temporarily invulnerable at the cost of an entire planet full of people, then leaves a warp taint on said planet that allows him to manifest there again and again, all in the name of their dark god who's so powerful and all encompassing he barely notices such an act other than to grant more gifts upon the do'er.....sorry I lost track of my thoughts for a moment, what were we talking about? Moving a light baton with your mind?

Anyways, the Imperial Navy's power is hard to measure as it varies incredibly even from ship to ship. Very much like the ships of the seafaring days, even ones of the same class vary in what exactly they bring. Hence the "horribly generic" representation in both fluff and rules. If you really want someone to list off what exactly is firing from the "weapons batteries" take a list of the weapons that the race uses, add 10 more and you're about there as long as you increase the size of each weapon by a factor of 3.

heretics bane
30-12-2007, 20:32
No such concrete numbers exist, partially because such things as "lance strikes" get widely varying descriptions in both the fluff and game rules.

Too true, in game terms a lance strike is effective at taking out high armoured vechiles, but in fluff terms there used to completely annilate planets by....*wikis*..see pic.

Now that looks like it good do more than crack open a tank...

Shaper Shakra
30-12-2007, 20:46
40k also has some of the hardest infantry ever. Can you picture a jedi trying to block a bolter shell with his little light stick? It would just blow up in his prissy little face. They'd just send out a few thunderhawks and the entire Republic or Empire or whatever fleet would be done.

heretics bane
30-12-2007, 20:59
"Dont worry friends i shall stop that hail of bolter rounds using the force!!"

-Famous last words of Luke Skywalker

Shaper Shakra
30-12-2007, 21:03
Do the jedi have a standing naval force? I really know nothing about Star Wars other than the few things I can remember from the movies.

Brother Siccarius
30-12-2007, 21:06
Look, if anyone knows how to win through "force" it's the Imperium.

Shaper Shakra
30-12-2007, 21:11
Badda-bing! Yeah, I think it's safe to say 40k pretty much wins. Its got the warp, which is the end of the debate right there.

Hmm...do you think the force would have any effect on warp-spawned creations?

Baltar
30-12-2007, 21:22
I get tired of these Star Wars vs. Imperium debates.

Both universes are really, really, really cool. I like both of them a lot.

That being said, the Battlestar Galactica wins out, because Starbuck never loses. :cool:

R Man
30-12-2007, 22:09
What's really odd is that fans claim SW weapons are supposedly planet killing, yet Han Solo states that the entire fleet couldn't destroy Alderan.

And if the fleet was so powerful then why bother to build all those super weapons?

And if the Galactic Empire had all that power how could it loose?

MrP
30-12-2007, 22:27
What's really odd is that fans claim SW weapons are supposedly planet killing, yet Han Solo states that the entire fleet couldn't destroy Alderan.

And if the fleet was so powerful then why bother to build all those super weapons?

And if the Galactic Empire had all that power how could it lose?

1) Inconsistent writing - hardly unique to old Lucas. ;)

2) I suspect www.theforce.net has a billion page long thread on that by now. I used to be a member but eventually got tired of it. Mainly the rudeness in the capital ships threads. Some arrogant rude little fellas in there amongst all the nice chaps.

icegreentea
30-12-2007, 22:36
What's really odd is that fans claim SW weapons are supposedly planet killing, yet Han Solo states that the entire fleet couldn't destroy Alderan.

And if the fleet was so powerful then why bother to build all those super weapons?

And if the Galactic Empire had all that power how could it loose?

i think it's the difference between blowing up a planet and exterminating all life. Star Destroyers are stated as being able to scourge all life off the surface of a planet given enough time. It takes the Death Star or Sith Alchemy to blow up a planet. The imperium is similar in that they can wipe out all life relatively easily (life-eater plauge, cyclonic torpedoes), but actually blowing up a planet requires incredible amounts of effort as well as certain preexisting conditions (weakened crust or something like that?). Or just call in the Planet-Killer. Wrap constructs are the best. Especially when they don't have some silly weakness like a coolant pipe.

R Man
30-12-2007, 22:44
1) Inconsistent writing - hardly unique to old Lucas.

True that. But 40K is written in a semi-mythological style. It's deliberately kept inaccurate and exaggerated and I think sometimes people forget that.

Of course we can use the histroy of each 'universe' to see what is 'real' and I might get around to doing it one day.


2) I suspect www.theforce.net has a billion page long thread on that by now. I used to be a member but eventually got tired of it. Mainly the rudeness in the capital ships threads. Some arrogant rude little fellas in there amongst all the nice chaps.

I might check that site out.

Sojourner
31-12-2007, 09:39
That being said, the Battlestar Galactica wins out, because Starbuck never loses.

Plus the only comparable hotness in any other universe tends to be useless. Padme was pathetic...

codicium_aeternum
31-12-2007, 12:05
instead of going cross universe... simply bring the star wars universe into the 40kverse as a new race.....

even with the star forge, they would lose every ground battle... even the jedi wouldnt stand upto a full marine assault.... the storm troopers have nothing on the imperial troops and the imperial navy ships are about the same size as the star forge itself so....

and dont even bring star trek into it.... i love the show, give them credit theyve done well... but they just arent a large enough military force for what they are.....

not only is the 40kverse larger, but its far more advanced as well... 40kverse is in the year 40,000 star trek is in the year 2500

the borg on the other hand.... they may stand a chance against the imperium, but only in a drawn out war where the borgs base of operations was unknown long enough for them to adapt.

Baaltharus
01-01-2008, 16:05
The Borg would get crushed like some rather insignificant thing by the Imprium. They can adapt to energy weapons, not too bullets, brute force and big blades. Its one of the stupidest bits about ST that they didnt produce a bunch of machine guns to mow down the Borg instead of mincing about with phasers.

The ships in 40k would either just blow massive holes in borg ships with the likes of nova cannons, bombardment cannons, torpedos or anything else none too jazzy but still ridiculously destructive or board them with Space Marine squads and slaughter there way through the slow, dumb Borg.

Mr_Rose
01-01-2008, 16:39
The Borg would get crushed like some rather insignificant thing by the Imprium. They can adapt to energy weapons, not too bullets, brute force and big blades. Its one of the stupidest bits about ST that they didnt produce a bunch of machine guns to mow down the Borg instead of mincing about with phasers.

The ships in 40k would either just blow massive holes in borg ships with the likes of nova cannons, bombardment cannons, torpedos or anything else none too jazzy but still ridiculously destructive or board them with Space Marine squads and slaughter there way through the slow, dumb Borg.
They did though (produce a machine gun) it's just that on-board ship phasers have unlimited ammo because they are constantly induction charged by the main engines, along with every other piece of technology aboard ship. Together with the fact that Borg encounters are vanishingly rare (exactly two ever), it made no sense to issue them generally.

Though one did get turned into a sniper's dream by adding a mini-transporter and a see-thru-walls scope....

Also, whilst Borg personal shielding may only be able to cope with energy weapons, their ship shields were well capable of stopping particle weapons.
What you should also remember is that the Borg are the only species in Trek that even come close to building on the same scale as the Imperium - those cubes are three klicks on a side and those are the long-range scout versions. Their battleships are frikking huge.

This does of course assume that people stop writing stories about them and actually let them be themselves rather than pressing the Narrative Imperative button all the time (who are the good guys in a Borg vs. Imperium fight anyway?)

Marius Xerxes
01-01-2008, 16:50
If you want to use anything from ST, Q is the answer. Any being that can snap his fingers and instantly send you to another part of the Galaxy is frightning.

Forget the Force, Forget Deamon Princes etc... Q in a way could be compared to a god of Chaos made manifest.

But we all know the Enterprise would re configure its Deflector Shield and annihlate and entire fleet. haha

That being said.. all 3 genres of SCi-FI are good in their own right. I like the 40k Universe the most because I like how dark it truly is.

Wolflord Havoc
01-01-2008, 18:33
Of course, neither compares to Iain M. Banks' Culture, whose General Systems Vehicles could accidentally annihilate planets by braking too hard, and are known to have done so. The last proper war they had resulted in 851 billion dead and 91 million ships, 53 planets, 1 ringworld and 3 dyson spheres destroyed - and that was on the winning side.

Ah yes - my favorite book of all time "Consider Phlebas" - The GSVs also have the best names and the funniest conversations :D

However the Culture would probably just ignore the Imperium as they have the power and knowledge to simply stay out of their way.....who am I trying to kid - the culture not getting involved :angel:

However all the powerful ships aside the SW universe does have the 2nd best ship ever* - "The Millenium Falcon"

*The best being a certain Firefly class frieghter called serenity.

However in my heart I know that the SW: Imperial Navy would get creamed by the 40K Imperial Navy and their crack troops are effectively 'afreil strain' mutants and as such in HTH even Tau are hitting them on 3+.

chaplian templar
23-08-2010, 17:38
im a true star wars fanboy at heart and all i have to say is this the imperium would
kick some serious ass as its domain is much more bigger and the shielding tech the they use wouldn't protect them against a missile or topedo barrage.
hell starwars would go down fighting but they would get whipped lol also even the all mighty star forge would lose easily after several barrages as its got next to nothing defensive wise other than making warships that would fly out then blow up.

Bunnahabhain
23-08-2010, 18:08
However the Culture would probably just ignore the Imperium as they have the power and knowledge to simply stay out of their way.....who am I trying to kid - the culture not getting involved :angel:



I think the Imperium is so crude compared to the culture, that it would be treated as a lesser race in need of help and civilising....
Given a GSV would appear easily capable of crippling a 40k fleet, probably with such ease as to inflict no actual casualties- just imagine, in the few milliseconds a combat pass takes, that the engines and shields shut down, and the message 'Oh just give up, or I'll have to do something nasty' pops up on every computer system on the ship...

Chances are, at least some impeial worlds would be left alone as 'Native preserves'

Jonman
23-08-2010, 18:43
Emperor’s Holy Navy (Warhammer 40,000)
..........vs..........
Imperial Fleet (Star Wars)


http://www.merzo.net/
This is a good site to go to for size reference. If you go to the tab -10, you can see the Imperial Retribution Class Battleship, and below it, the Cobra Class Destroyer. These two are the general largest and smallest ships in the Emperor's Navy (the ships 5th and 6th down). In Internet Explorer, you can move the ships around for a side-by-side comparison.

Now, as for being in space, Star Wars really has no chance at all, were the full force of a sector fleet be called upon to defend against almost everything the Empire has to offer.

1. The ships of Warhammer 40,000 are built with, give or take the size of the ship, 30-100 meters of adamantium armor.


2. http://the-first-magelord.deviantart.com/art/Lance-Turret-82219094
— That is a standard lance cannon that comes in numbers, almost every warship has one. This is as powerful as a single blast from the Death Star in the Battle of Endor (when shooting at the Rebel cruisers). Oh yeah, the range of these weapons is several hundreds of kilometers. A man who helps operate one of these things may spend his entire life on it, him and his next three or four generations.

The reason I can say these lance batteries have the strength of the Endor Death Star single-shooting at the Rebel vessels is that lance batteries are designed to cut a warship clean in half and then force it into a cataclysmic explosion. Now imagine a few hundred of those...


3. Oh yeah, you have to get past the shields. There is a layer of shields that are designed to take 2-3 blasts of lance batteries (and remember, those are as powerful as shots from the Endor Death Star shooting at the Rebel ships). These can recharge in a matter of minutes.


4. The sides of the warships have 60-meter wide cannons. A full broadside is capable of ripping into hulls of 40k warships.


5. Boarding pods/gunboats. The pods used to board enemy vessels are designed to cut through adamantium armor once the shield is down. If the Imperium sent Space Marines aboard a Star Destroyer, the boarding pod would almost slice it in half.


6. Boarding an Imperial vessel with Storm Troopers led by Lord Vader? Ha, ha, ha, oh, you’re not joking? Several systems within the warship are manually hand-cranked like anchors pushed by a group of as many as 100 men. A capital ship is capable of holding a million crew members. They are trained to fight off daemonic powers that teleport straight inside, monsters 9 feet tall or bigger, and super soldiers that could flick their heads off.


7. Nova Cannons. The ultimate weapon of the Imperium, a cannon the size of a Mon Calamari cruiser. A single blast from a Nova Cannon (a shot that is almost the speed of light) will cause a near inter-dimensional implosion/follow-up explosion... destruction that spans roughly 270 kilometers in diameter. It will crinkle the Death Star like someone would crinkle a wad of paper, and then vaporize it with the power of the center of a nuclear blast. This would result in turning the Death Star into sci-fi’s greatest fragmentation grenade. These cannons have an incredible range of 2-3,000+ kilometers. Nova Cannons do not care what kind of shielding you have, how maneuverable you are, nor are they interested in who built your armor or how many years you took building a war fleet. It will be gone.


A fleet is capable of shooting these things at least once every 1-3 minutes. They are area-affect weapons against warships that stay in squadrons that are almost a hundred kilometers apart. While Star Wars may require creating specialized planet killers, Warhammer 40,000 standard-equipped weaponry on warships in a fleet serve as planet killers. Concentrated blasts from Nova Cannons and Lances on a centralized, weak point in a planet's crust will result in cracking holes to the core, creating a cataclysmic implosion/explosion.

As you can see, Star Wars turbolasers are nothing more than light shows compared to the weapon systems of the Imperium.


8. The warships that are the size of Star Destroyers make up some of the smallest vessels in the fleet, and are at least twice as powerful and three times as tough. In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, squadrons of ships the size of Star Destroyers are so weak that their only usefulness is mere cannon fodder!

9. You want to invade the Imperium of Man? Good luck... there’s hundreds of sectors in the Imperium, with hundreds of warships in each to protect a tiny, tiny portion of the Imperium as a whole. The fleet that was sucked into a giant warp storm during the Age of Apostasy probably carried at least a third of what the Imperium was capable at the time, mounting up to thousands of ships.


100 Borg Cubes couldn't stand up to the full might of the Emperor’s Holy Navy of the Imperium.

FarseerMatt
24-08-2010, 10:44
Sorry for the essay :)


Although it's kind of a good thing that GW hasn't published too much data about Imperial warships, really.

It is. It stops any budding writers from feeling too constrained.



It is not explained whether this is due to raw power or the fact that plasma torpedoes are explosive devices whilst lances are directed energy weapons.

Although they are explosive, I think it is reasonable to assume that torpedoes have directed warheads (like modern torpedoes) given the thickness of 40K ship hulls, and the undesirability of losing more than half of the explosion’s force into space rather than towards the target.



The fleets of 40k would annihilate their opposite numbers in star wars/trek. Not only is the Imperial Navy so much larger than either of these but a Star Destroyer for instance is the size of a Cobra destroyer, one of the smallest ships in the Imperial Navy.

The Executor, however, is bigger than anything we’ve got (17km or something ridiculous). Also the Empire owns a bigger fraction of their galaxy than the Imperium, so they’ve probably got at least as many ships, if not more. How those ships match up to ours is up in the air.



you can't win against star wars crazy people. they just bring up the star forge, and BAM, all of a sudden it's impossible to argue. Goddamn star forge.

Wasn’t the Star Forge a KOTOR-era thing, not an Empire thing? Although it is probably fair to say that the Empire has something of a superweapon fetish… :shifty:



The firepower in SW rapidly becomes absurd, however. In places it's been suggested that a star destroyer can direct the entire power output of a small star entirely via its laser batteries for a short period, and dissipates more energy in a single hyperspace jump than a planetary civilisation uses in its entire lifetime.

Crunch the numbers and you get similarly crazy numbers in 40K. And many other sci-fi settings.



A single star destroyer is apparently capable of completely destroying said planetary civilisation in a matter of hours.

Ah yes, the famous Base Delta Zero. This is the standard strategy most debaters will pull out - zipping around with their superior strategic speed (hyperdrive is, admittedly, shown to be somewhat faster than the Warp) and slagging planets at will. It does however fail to consider:


The special sanctioning required for such an action
The fact that it is demonstrably rare and not a first resort
The political/public outrage such a strategy would cause on their own side (possibly within their own crews)
The crazy orbital defences 40K planets tend to have
The fact that, unlike capturing the planets, it gives them no return on an immensely costly war effort.

Essentially the same reasons that Exterminatus is rare in 40K.



i must say i love how they talk about power output without actually thinking about how silly that amount of power would be,

also, the shere impossiblities of the rate of production listed is amusing...

Don’t underestimate an empire that can harness the production capabilities of an entire galaxy - of course, by the same token, the Imperium can do this too ;)



i do remember seeing in the films that the star destroyers [i think thats what they are called] had numerous short ranged guns for taking out fighters and the like

Yes, which, interestingly, diminishes the effectiveness of teraton Imperial torpedoes. Seeing as how they’re as big as some ships in SW and ISDs can hit them just fine, it’s possible that they could simply shoot the torps out of the ether.



shipe in BFG are designed to kill things from a few 1000Km away... with lance shots... or braodsides...

Try a few tens of thousands of km away. With some weapons, like plasma cannons, being accurate out to even longer ranges
(presumably the bolts can be guided a bit by manipulating the electromagnetic shell that contains the plasma - a bit like in the Halo novels).



6. Boarding an Imperial vessel with Storm Troopers led by Lord Vader? Ha, ha, ha

I like to imagine Empire stormtroopers as having the same profile as Guard stormtroopers, though with AP5 or 4 rather than 3, and the special rule that when shooting at Independent Characters they count as having BS1 :)

However, while the stormtroopers might be only on par with their Imperial Guard counterparts, we are also talking about (to quote my SW guru flatmate) DARTH FREAKING VADER. You don’t mess with that guy unless you’re at least a Marine librarian, or an Eldar warlock. And probably not even then.



9. You want to invade the Imperium of Man? Good luck...

Perhaps a bigger threat than the Imperium is what Chaos would do to all those latent force-sensitives…



We do know the size of the ships, but I also believe we have enough information to estimate the scale of BFG, which would give us information about the range of different weapons and the speed and acceleration of their ships. But it's been a damn long time since I discussed that stuff.

Here’s some old hand calcs I did on the subject, though a) they may be wrong and b) this is strictly my personal view on the matter (see very first quote).

ASSUMPTION 1 - Each cm in BFG represents 1000 km. Anything smaller and the planet sizes don’t work (as it is the planet markers become too large, but as the game includes rules for low orbit and the like it can be assumed that the marker represents the atmosphere and part of the gravity well in addition to the planet itself). It is highly likely that BFG is intended to have a logarithmic range scale, like 40k, so at close range a cm may be less and at long range more, but I have ignored this for simplicity.

NOTE - This gives engagement ranges of a couple of light-seconds, which sounds reasonable - many “weapon battery” armaments are speed-of-light (lasers etc) and could be expected to be reasonably accurate out to these ranges (I say reasonably because of weapon travel time, and possibly “light-speed lag” of the targeting sensors, although one assumes that the Imperium has some kind of funky Warp-based FTL sensor since this problem is never brought up).

ASSUMPTION 2 - A turn is 60 seconds. You can fire one broadside (or one “set” of x broadsides) a turn and this seems reasonable. In practice the refire rate of the ships’ weapons may be much less than this, but then the vessel speeds involved start getting ridiculous (ie many times the speed of light)

NOTE - There is no such thing as a “maximum speed” in space, barring fuel constraints, so technically we should be talking in terms of acceleration rather than velocity. However there are likely some “standard” speeds that the ships use, such as the 0.75 c “attack speed” mentioned by Dan Abnett.

Given these numbers:

Capital ship cruising speed = 3.33 E5 m/s (based on moving 20 cm in one turn)

Capital ship retro deceleration = 416 g (based on reducing to half cruising speed over 10 cm in one turn - the “burn retros” special rule)

We can imagine their acceleration to be comparable (or perhaps greater, seeing as it comes from the main engines). The ability to resist such massive g forces says something about the strength of the ships’ hulls and whatever inertial dampening system / artificial gravity they use to stop the crew being crushed.

Capital ship attack speed = 2.25 E8 m/s (0.75 c. Note that this would be “close to range” speed - the ship would have to slow down significantly to be able to fight, hence the much lower cruising speed)

Torpedo cruising speed = 5.00 E5 m/s (based on moving 30 cm in one turn)

Torpedo acceleration = 1388 g (based on accelerating from the cruising speed of the firing capital ship to its cruising speed over a - fairly arbitrary - distance of 5000 km)

For comparison:

Eldar capital ship cruising speed = 8.33 E5 m/s (based on moving 50 cm in one turn, assuming optimum solar facing)

Eldar capital ship acceleration = +/- 2362 g (based on accelerating from rest to cruising speed over 15 cm, assuming equal deceleration to rest by the end of the move at 30 cm)


However, after all that rambling, I think the ultimate answer is the one Mr Rose put forward in the very first reply - both universes have many sources, and these sources give many different power levels. Which one you pick is author preference, so whether the Imperium beats the Empire or not is up to the writer of the particular fanfic :)

I had toyed with the idea of writing one crossover myself (at the urging of my SW-fan flatmate) but in the meantime there’s this one:

A Squelch Of Empires (http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=127610&sid=aa0948e945b7e53ded05ede3ad42ef21)

It’s quite heavy on “technical” dialogue, and as expected of being hosted on SD.net it is slightly Empire-biased (he sold the Nids rather short, I feel) but not intolerably so. Oh, and it has Commissar Cain in it.

Mr_Rose
24-08-2010, 11:47
I think your Assumption 2, about the length of a turn, is incorrect. Rates of fire are even more abstracted in BFG than in 40K (where a bolter firing a 3-shot burst and a lasgun on autofire get the same potential number of hits) and a turn is probably significantly longer than that, if only to prevent the insane accelerations you just calculated.

Call a turn 600s and you might get a lot closer to what's really going on, especially considering as well that orders have to be relayed by lighter on occasion, and the stated periods of weeks/months to get in-system from a jump point (initial exit velocity 0.01c) rather than hours...

Iracundus
24-08-2010, 12:57
Instead of hand waving or making up estimates out of the air, please see Andy Chambers' (BFG designer) notes on scale to the old BFG mailing list, reproduced at:

http://www.wolfedengames.com/battlefleetgothic/scale.htm



I'm not sure if I've talked about scale before but here goes anyway. BFG works around an approximate scale of 1cm=1000KM for the planets and other tabletop features. Obviously this means the ship models are massively out of scale, an Imperial cruiser is NOT 9000KM+ long! The scale is basically there as a rule of thumb and I didn't worry about it too much when it came down to setting weapon ranges, ship speeds and so on. These were all done to create the right impression of distance on the tabletop. For example 60cm 'feels' like a long way and 30cm doesn't, the weapon ranges aren't defined by some pseudo-science calaculation of the energy dissipation rate of lasers (fairly obviously ) but to create an interaction between the (massively out of scale) models on the tabletop.

The more interesting question is perhaps how long is a turn, and that one I don't know the answer too - I'd guess somewhere between 15 minutes and an hour (quite likely telescoping so that at long range a turn is an hour but by the time you're within 15 cm its 15 minutes). This would make an attack craft capable of moving 30cm per ordnance phase capable of doing approximately 30-120,000 km/h. I've got no idea if this is realistic for starfighter speeds, or unfeasibly fast, incredibly slow or what , perhaps someone on the list could enlighten us all on this front (don't just tell us what it says it the Star Wars technical manual though!).


Furthermore, the BFG description of BFG weapons describes them as firing broadsides (plural), which is possible given the length of a turn. Remember that in BFG, "weapon batteries" are not precision weapon systems (lances are those), and instead rely on mass of fire and/or area effect weapons/shells to blast an area of space in the local vicinity of the target. Thus they may very well fire like old WWI or WWII capital ships and adjust each following broadside after registering the hits or misses of the preceding broadside.

FarseerMatt
24-08-2010, 13:03
Rates of fire are even more abstracted in BFG than in 40K (where a bolter firing a 3-shot burst and a lasgun on autofire get the same potential number of hits) and a turn is probably significantly longer than that, if only to prevent the insane accelerations you just calculated.

This is true, but sci-fi ships are no strangers to insane accelerations - IIRC someone calculated the acceleration on a star destroyer to be three and a half thousand g's (something about rounding Endor in the time it takes for the rebels to pull up and Ackbar to say his famous "It's a trap!" line).



Call a turn 600s and you might get a lot closer to what's really going on, especially considering as well that orders have to be relayed by lighter on occasion.

Also true, though more commonly comms seem to be done by astropath (or even vox - ships in a fleet are probably never more than a light second or two apart so there'd be minimal delay, unless shields block vox signals, which they may well do). I imagine courier vessels would be a desperation measure, sort of like reverting to lamps and flags if your radio gets smashed.



and the stated periods of weeks/months to get in-system from a jump point (initial exit velocity 0.01c) rather than hours...

Hmmm...it might have just been different situations. The ships in Sabbat Martyr come out at 0.75 c because they knew they were launching straight into a fleet action (their jump point was in-system rather than on the outskirts). A cautious invasion fleet with unknown opposition and a bunch of transports to protect, or a non-military ship, could afford to take a more leisurely cruise.

On the other hand, it may just be a case of different sources giving wildly different numbers based on author preference. The calculations above are only one of many possible solutions - they just happen to give numbers that I personally favour.


EDIT - Ah, thanks Iracundus, I didn't know about them. Seems I got the distances right at least...

Okay, if we assume 1cm = 1000 km and one turn = 15 mins then we get:

Capital ship cruising speed = 2.22 E4 m/s (based on moving 20 cm in one turn)

Capital ship retro deceleration = -1.9 g (based on reducing to half cruising speed over 10 cm in one turn - the “burn retros” special order)

Capital ship attack speed = 2.25 E8 m/s (0.75 c)

Torpedo cruising speed = 3.33 E4 m/s (based on moving 30 cm in one turn)

Torpedo acceleration = 6.3 g (based on accelerating from the cruising speed of the firing capital ship to its cruising speed over a - fairly arbitrary - distance of 5000 km)

For comparison:

Eldar capital ship cruising speed = 5.56 E4 m/s (based on moving 50 cm in one turn, assuming optimum solar facing)

Eldar capital ship acceleration = +/- 10.5 g (based on accelerating from rest to cruising speed over 15 cm, assuming equal deceleration to rest by the end of the move at 30 cm.)



These accelerations may seem rather underwhelming, but they can be considered lower limits as they assume that the whole period is spent accelerating, rather than part accelerating and part at constant speed.

Bunnahabhain
24-08-2010, 17:04
Also true, though more commonly comms seem to be done by astropath (or even vox - ships in a fleet are probably never more than a light second or two apart so there'd be minimal delay, unless shields block vox signals, which they may well do). I imagine courier vessels would be a desperation measure, sort of like reverting to lamps and flags if your radio gets smashed.


False assumption here.

In combat, it has been not uncommon for people to use flags or lights to communicate as a matter of course, despite having radios fitted and functioning.

Two example.

WW2. Ships at sea.
Lights were the standard communication method if ships were within LOS, as they maintain Radio silence. The lamps used were highly directional, so you could only detect, let alone intercept and read the signal if you were within LOS and the narrow arc where the beam is visable,a s opposed to Radio, which reveals your location to everybody.

Tanks of the Red Army.
Again , mainly to maintain Radio Silence. From WW2 and on into the Cold war, tank orders were often given by flag signals. Without LOS, they're undetectable.

All techniques have advantages and disadvantages. Don't assume the older/simpler one is always worse....

Karl MkVI
24-08-2010, 17:41
jedi's ass mind.......

i know this isn't what you meant, but this is how I originally read it, and it's all kinds of funny if you're as immature as I am... :D

Col. Tartleton
24-08-2010, 17:46
Basically it comes down to a grudge match between Mephiston and Darth Vader.

95354
95355

No matter who wins we lose...

FarseerMatt
24-08-2010, 20:34
Colonel Tartleton, you legend ;)



False assumption here.

In combat, it has been not uncommon for people to use flags or lights to communicate as a matter of course, despite having radios fitted and functioning.

Okay, a poor example, but not a false assumption - astropathic comms take mere seconds and are secure (even if they can be intercepted, they are encrypted beforehand and decyphered after they arrive), as opposed to courier shuttles which would take much longer; the orders might be defunct by the time they arrive.

Arathan
26-08-2010, 14:01
I never thought I'd find another setting more over the top with power levels than 40k but reading the thread on that SW board I was proven wrong.
When they effortlessly cut a tyranid splinter fleet to ribbons while running figure-eights around them I threw up my hands and said ******* this s***.

Mr_Rose
26-08-2010, 14:34
Thing is, the SW kids have been trying to prove their setting is the bestest ever since the first film was released and all the ST kids beat them up and took their lunch money.*
It's a sort of inferiority complex really.




* Mostly to replace the money taken by the Football Jocks of course, but you gotta establish some sort of pecking order, right?

massey
26-08-2010, 21:17
The problem is that 40K, Star Wars, and Star Trek all base the performance of their vessels and weaponry on what sounds and looks cool, not upon any real scientific calculations. If you try to calculate real numbers for these things, you get stupid and unrealistic outcomes.

BFG ships with weapons as powerful as some of the fans want wouldn't need exterminatus, they'd just fire a weapon barrage at the planet and cause a nuclear holocaust. Why build a Death Star if you've got a Star Destroyer? Because you want the pieces really small? So what you end up with are fanboys (and yes, not regular fans, but the most socially retarded, mouth-breathing fanboys) of each series who sit and count the number of pixels on the screen to determine how large asteroids are, and calculate how many billions of joules are needed to cause vaporization. They take the most extreme examples possible and use that as their baseline. They estimate up from there.

The problem with these sorts of weapon stats is that if they were accurate, the ships would not behave the same as they do in the source material. Saying that a ship can fly in-system at 200 times the speed of light because you measured the angle at which they rose up from Endor and timing the spaces between scenes is pointless. That's like watching a romantic comedy and saying that Matthew Mcconau**** can walk 700 mph because one scene shows him talking to a girl with the Statue of Liberty in the background and then he turns a corner and is in a completely different part of the city. That is not the purpose of the scene.

BFG guns are BIG. They blow up A LOT. Any more detailed analysis is pointless.

Paksos
27-08-2010, 12:42
I think that it's a little unfair to weigh the full terrifying power of the Imperium against the Jedi. It's hardly a fair test... I mean let's be honest here, the Jedi would have been packed off onto the Black Ships as "mutant psykers" and sacrificed into the Golden Throne before the Imperium ever even knew they were embroiled in this debate...