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The Anarchist
29-12-2007, 18:37
I kinda not played much WFB in the past 6 months and even then wasnt playing alot. having since got back to the country I'v looked at the various armys and Lizardmen have taken my fancy, so i need some advice.

it seems to me having got the army book there is two major army type options;

Hard solid blocks of infantry Saurus and small units of sinks dotted around, but principly there to protect the Slann/Fat Frog as he cast bolts of death. this is normaly backed up by a unit of Saurus cavalry.

loads of skinks in all their forms harassing everything they can, this is backed up with terradons and fast moving Saurus.

obviously these are massive over statments and not nessecarily acurate. so considering that I'm evolving from 7k points of WE what advice can the luminarys of Warseer offer me? also would apreciate more detail on how various units and combo's of Lizardmen work.

thanks for any and all help.

Semi_Bunny
29-12-2007, 23:40
Well the first thing I should say is dont get your tactics from the armybooks and GW, they're mostly unreliable (pretty much GW propaganda!). However though the army types were partially right, you pretty much either have the skink horde which people use in tournaments alot, and you have all the other army types.

I'm figuring you dont mean to be uber competitive or anything with the list, so basically a saurus list is a fine way to go. You pretty much then have to choose whether or not you want to be magic heavy with a slann or combat heavy with an oldblood, and they're both equally fine choices IMO.

Pretty much the basic choices you want to get to start a lizardmen army are a block or two of saurus (about 15-20 models per block), some skinks who act as screens and scouts/marchblockers (10 models per unit probably), and then some hammer units to support the saurus. These can either be saurus cavalry or kroxigors, though that comes down to a personal choice. Basically Kroxigors hit harder and are good against cavalry but arent very good on there own and are better support units. Saurus Cavalry dont hit as hard but can rip through light infantry and are especially powerful when you add in a saurus hero.

Speaking of heroes, even before you decide whether you want a slann or an oldblood, its good to have both a skink priest to provide magic defense and a saurus scar vet to be a JSoD (M9 saurus with greatwep and 5 attacks on the charge) or a saurus unit general. If you go for the oldblood you probably also need one to be a BSB for the army. With the oldblood you can either do him on foot (as a JSOD hes powerful and you can have a scar vet be your general since they both have L8) or on a carnosaur or a cold one (gives him a 0+ armorsave). With the slann, the best way to go generation wise is either 4th if you want him to be magic adequate (hes still very good) or 2nd gen if you want him to be very powerful. The other choices arent really that good, 5th is fine if you dont put too many points into him, and if your spending the points on 3rd gen you may as well go 2nd for the free dice rule.

And the other units in the lizardmen army are really personal choices other than salamanders which I'd say atleast 2 is a must since they're pretty overpowered at the moment. Stegadon is cool if you like the model, I personally dont use one. Terradons and chameleon skinks are optional if you want them as war machine hunters, they basically do the same job in different ways.

Overall with the lizardmen you have a lot of balance and freedom when it comes down to choices. However if you really want to be competitive the skirmishing skink horde is the way to go, but you may not like this since its probably pretty similar to a wood elf army.

For more information, go to www.pyramidvault.net, its got lots of info and armylists etc.

Hope I could have helped,
-Bunny

SlaaneshSlave
30-12-2007, 00:23
Salamanders are crazy powerful. No reason not to max out on them.

Rest of the army is just there to escort the 6 Sallies.

Flypaper
30-12-2007, 11:33
Hard solid blocks of infantry Saurus and small units of sinks dotted around, but principly there to protect the Slann/Fat Frog as he cast bolts of death. this is normaly backed up by a unit of Saurus cavalry.Right except for the cavalry bit. Kroxigor are usually the superior flanking unit - nobody ever ran the cav until they put them out in plastic. :o

loads of skinks in all their forms harassing everything they can, this is backed up with terradons and fast moving Saurus.Unfortunately, you can only have one model's-worth of "fast moving Saurus" on foot per army. Skink hordes usually take Kroxigor and Salamanders to do their killing for them.
Salamanders are crazy powerful. No reason not to max out on them.Alas, 'tis true. If you're looking to be a bit more circumspect, a single unit of three should suffice. :o

Conotor
06-01-2008, 19:04
If you take a Slann, make him seccoond genn.
If you take sarri, spwan them of quetly.
ALWAYS take at least 10 skink/1000 points.
ALWAYS take a jsod.
Saurus cavalry and kroxigore are good for a shock army. Carnoes and steggies can easily gang teem units.

Conotor
06-01-2008, 19:07
Salamanders are crazy powerful. No reason not to max out on them.

Rest of the army is just there to escort the 6 Sallies.

I never found them so good. My terradons are the most accomplished part of my army, apart from the carnosaur.

studderigdave
07-01-2008, 01:28
sallies are crazy good, i agree. i take 3 whenever i can. beyond the random skink getting munched, they always get their points back.

advice for running lizards? i love my 2nd gen slann, point sink? you bet, but its sick, i started lizards cuz my group was starting fantasy. i was looking over the armies and i saw that fat little frog, i was like, i want to run that fat frog. so thats how it all began.

-JSOD is solid. i run my pretty standard, GW+charm+SS Sotek+LA. great flanker. when the kroxies take the front, the JSOF takes the side to wipe almost anything.

-i do love saurus blocks, i take them in 20's. i have 2 blocks of 20 in my 3000 point, plus a 16 of TG for the slann. i dont SS them unless i have spare points.

- 3 sallies, nuff said.

Atzcapotzalco
07-01-2008, 03:33
Salamanders are great support, but they are very much support-they aren't army destroyers by themselves, and in my experience aren't often unit destroyers except against fairly light units. They are also very temperemental, so more than with other units you have to be prepared for a bad turn, espescially against targets with more than T3 and armour. Taking a brood of three does quite a lot to offset their temperemental nature.
The real terrors of the lizardman list are the kroxigor, which have a charge powerful enough to flatten almost any target an opponent can put in their way, espescially if you use four or five of them. Unlike salamanders, their strength is high enough to easily punch through even high toughness targets, and a higher leadership also makes them substantially less susceptible to panic. Even better, they can charge through your skink skirmishers. Their only big weakness is that they can struggle to overcome large CR bonuses from ranks/standard/outnumber, but they are still a very powerful unit, and in contrast to salamanders one I feel comfortable relying on.
My terradons are, while a good unit, an awkward one. High speed and good hitting power are offset by a high cost, poor toughness and low leadership-fear causing armies can severely inhibit their usefulness, any missile fire at all is a threat, and they aren't quite strong enough to tackle full strength fighting units. But with careful selection of targets, the support of other units, and a consideration of their value as a threat, I find they can be very useful, when they aren't spending the entire game trying to find the courage to charge a unit of skeleton archers;).

One-S
07-01-2008, 06:57
I'm not a big fan of the core saurus, They're to slow and to expensive for what they do.
Skinks however I like a lot. Fast skirmishers with a lot of poisonned darts, no fast cav will bother you.
Core = skinks IMO
Special: take a pick, krox are good, as are terradons. I like the saurus cave most, with the huanchi totem that's one guaranteed flankcharge a game!
And Rare = salamanders.
You'll have to try hard to field bad caracters. Lizardmen scarvets kick*ss. A Slann,...

kroq'gar
07-01-2008, 07:29
I find slann not really worth their points (pit of shades anyone? on a 2+ your dead, no wounds, no ward. dead.)

Take saurus characters with mark of tepoc, and a lvl 2 skink priest with the diadem of power. You can easily contain their magic, or if they went magic light, store two dispel dice to go offensive and get off both spells with 3 dice.

Saurus characters are best when fighting rank and file, and racking up combat res.

I normally run one big unit of saurus with +1 armour led by a bsb with +1 st blade and a 5+ ward (with light arour and blessing hes got a 3+ save as well). never give the saurus spears.

This gives you a killy/combat res heavy unit to form your army around.

As mentioned above, saurus cav with the blessed banner lets you get a garanteed flank charge. I take units of either 7, or 6 with a hero. Hero gets the +2 attacks and sotek. for a total of 7 st 5 attacks.

Skinks are a must, i take 40 - 50 in 10 blocks with one unit of scouts and all with javalins. This gives you much more reliable moving shooting and a 5+save in combat, meaning you can charge and kill warmachine crews and many other light units.

Camelion skinks x 5 is a very good choice to marchblock and crossfire.

Rare are personal choice, i vary from 6 salamanders to two stegadons, depeding on the opponent or if i have a carnousaur (if you take a large target, take a stegadon to even out the damage received)

studderigdave
07-01-2008, 14:54
I find slann not really worth their points (pit of shades anyone? on a 2+ your dead, no wounds, no ward. dead.)

thats assuming pit of shades goes off. the only way it does against me is if its cast with irresistable force, then yeah, the slann is toast. but besides that i always rock the slann. i kep a caddy in tow for just a spell so i can scroll it away.

at 3000 points i run an oldblood on carnisaur, and im very upfront with him, especially against low Ld. armies. i like to run up as fast as i can and terror shock alot of units into running, then charge in on anything that remains, while the rest of my army takes position and supports his assaults. while my slann chills in the backround and nujes things with missiles.

Conotor
08-01-2008, 02:31
Garenteed flank charge with the totem? Only works on infantry who don't have thair flank guarded by another unit. Most people expect the totem and guard against it.

John Vaughan
08-01-2008, 03:43
You should be unlike my friend who only used one skink priest in his whole army. Being a Tzeench player, I magiced the h3!! outta him! In his case, he used lots of unsupported squads, and was very vulnerable to flank attacks. I hink it is necessary to have two blocks of 20 saurus warriors, and a couple of skink units. A nasty ploy used on me was where 2 (yes, 2) skinks were behind my big block of chaos warriors (about 2" away) to spike my warriors to death when they fled. Hundreds of poits of warriors, all taken out be a dozen. I was humiliated...

kroq'gar
08-01-2008, 09:57
Garenteed flank charge with the totem? Only works on infantry who don't have thair flank guarded by another unit. Most people expect the totem and guard against it.

the blessed standard allows that charge when you take two units of saurus cav and place one on the flank (warbanner) and one with the hero (with blessed standard). Charge break and pursue a soft point in their line. They are to scared to turn to face, allowing you to about turn, swirve toward them, and then activate.

Chaos Undecided
08-01-2008, 10:32
I believe that an enemy unit has to have a unit strength of at least 5 to destroy a fleeing unit if the unit runs into them, so 2 skinks would not have enough to auto destroy the chaos warrior unit.

ironskullbo
09-01-2008, 06:34
I would like to know who it was who said saurus on foot dnt work and why he thinks that? Saurus on foot are soom of the best basic infantry in the game.

kroq'gar
10-01-2008, 07:52
I would like to know who it was who said saurus on foot dnt work and why he thinks that? Saurus on foot are soom of the best basic infantry in the game.

Have you played with them?

on paper they are superb, but it just doesnt quite translate over to gameplay.

Conotor
10-01-2008, 12:51
They are ok, but you will be hugely outnumbered in units. Only take them if u have a slann.

ironskullbo
10-01-2008, 22:44
what?!? basic 4 statline, 4+ save in combat, 2 attacks a piece and basically leadership ten. they also have options to take a sacrd spawning to boost them even more. how exactly are they good on paper and noy good in the game? a unit of twenty with a battle standard can stand up to almost any charge. and if they are supported by a unit of anything else in the lizardmen army then they are almost garuanteed to win. You guys are gonna have to come up with a better argument then they are good on paper but not in the game.

Flypaper
11-01-2008, 02:38
spawning to boost them even more. how exactly are they good on paper and noy good in the game?Because they're M4 in a primarly M6 army with no access to long-range shooting.

...That puts them in a guaranteed defensive role. In which case you're paying unnecessarily for S4 and an extra attack. It also means that you can't make effective use of more than two (large, MSU is a different but equally M4 story) units, period. They can anchor a flank or two, or hide a Slann - there's simply nothing else they can do efficiently.

ironskullbo
11-01-2008, 05:10
just because they are slower than the rest of the army doesnt make them a defensive role unit. they can be used as the final blow after the rest of your army has already been harrasing your opponent. you are also making the assumption that a player is only goin to use one or two units of them. a freind of mine who wins a lot of the local tournaments runs three to four units of twenty in his army and it has been a rock solid list. just because they would be a late game unit doesnt mean they are useless. so to say that they arent good because they are slow is like saying that you shouldnt use chaos warrioirs cuz knights and hounds and maruader horemen are faster.

One-S
11-01-2008, 17:29
so to say that they arent good because they are slow is like saying that you shouldnt use chaos warrioirs cuz knights and hounds and maruader horemen are faster.

Indeed, that's exactly why you shouldn't use chaos warriors.

Look at it like this.
A warhammer turn has 4 fases. The movement fase is the only one that depends more on player skills then on luck.
If you dominate the movement fase then you dominate the game, the rest is dice rolling (shooting, casting, combat: no skills needed other then lifting the dice and rolling them).
With movement 4 it's hard to get a grip on the movement of your opponent and on the movement fase.
That's why chaos wariors and saurus' on foot aren't that interesting to use.
You'll be playing a defensive role with a unit that you want to see in combat.
It isn't easy to get into combat with faster moving enemies if those enemies don't want to see combat. Then it's a kinda useless to spent louds of points on fighting units that are to slow to get engaged when they want.

tanglethorn
11-01-2008, 17:38
Indeed, that's exactly why you shouldn't use chaos warriors.

Look at it like this.
A warhammer turn has 4 fases. The movement fase is the only one that depends more on player skills then on luck.
If you dominate the movement fase then you dominate the game, the rest is dice rolling (shooting, casting, combat: no skills needed other then lifting the dice and rolling them).
With movement 4 it's hard to get a grip on the movement of your opponent and on the movement fase.
That's why chaos wariors and saurus' on foot aren't that interesting to use.
You'll be playing a defensive role with a unit that you want to see in combat.
It isn't easy to get into combat with faster moving enemies if those enemies don't want to see combat. Then it's a kinda useless to spent louds of points on fighting units that are to slow to get engaged when they want.

I think it still comes down to playstyle. LM have good access to a number of varied unit types with different stats and movement, unlike Dwarves.

You could make the enemy come to you and this is where the Saurus shine.

Also keep in mind that if you have mostly Saurus, you will do much than having just one block. Saurus peform better when you have multiple blocks supporting each other and protecting flanks.

The_Dragon_Rising
11-01-2008, 18:20
The problem with saurus as mentioned is their M4. Against a balanced army they will know that you want to be in combat and generally will sit back and shoot and set up charges for when you are depleted and closer. If you sit back then being LM chances are you are going to be outshot (unless magic missile heavy slaan counts as shooting in which case you may be going somewhere at range).

Either way for 12pts I have found them to not be worth it, however then its begs the question. How do LM win combat? Any answers to that will be welcome.

ironskullbo
12-01-2008, 01:16
so lets just say that we shouldnt use anything that is movement 4 then rite? cuz there is always something faster in the army and that makes it better. if you want to break it down to "PHASES", then think of it this way. there are six turns in the average game, the first two is when you feel out your opponent and set up your charges, the second two is when the charges and combats are made and the battle lines are broken, then there are the last two turns in which the victory is sealed. now if you have a slower unit which hasnt been in combat for the first half then that would mean they are relativley unscathed and should be good to go for the final hammer blow. just cuz the saurus are slow does not mean they are defensive it just means that you will have to use DISPOSIBLE units like skinks (which is what they are meant to be) to bring and herd your opponent to you.

One-S
12-01-2008, 09:37
Either way for 12pts I have found them to not be worth it, however then its begs the question. How do LM win combat? Any answers to that will be welcome.

Skinks are the answer to a lot of problems in any lizardmen army, it might sound strange, but they're verry usefull for combat.
In the link below you'll find an interesting way to use skirmishers.
http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=35261&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
The carefull reader has found out by now that this makes a skink/kroxigor-tandem deadly.
Let me explain.
It's obvious that you'll need your skinks as a screen for your krox. If you move your skinks within charge range of anything, make shure that if it charges and you flee, that doing so will open your opponents flanks to your kroxigors. (that's why the movement fase is so importent ;)). If your opponent doesn't take the bait, then he's still fasing a unit of kroxigors that will charge him through the skink screen. (Do keep in mind that you can't charge through fleeing skinks, so keep your krox max 1inch behind your skinks if you're planning on doing this)
If you have one or two of these skink/krox-tandems and a unit of saurus cav with a huanchi totem (1 guaranteed flank charge) then you have a descent setup for combat IMO.
Of course, throwing in a JSOD or a steg will come in handy if your focus is combat.

kroq'gar
12-01-2008, 11:07
If you present a solid front of regiments, then you only need one turn to crush everything at once.

One-S
12-01-2008, 11:31
If you present a solid front of regiments, then you only need one turn to crush everything at once.

If you present a solid front of regiments you'll need at least tree turns to get to the other side and that is in perfect conditions.
You can be slowed by terrain, marchblokking-, diverting-, baiting-,... enemy units,...
And there's a good chance that if you manage to get to the other side VS a faster moving enemy, that there is no enemy in your "solid front" but on your flanks/rear.
How exactly did you plan on crushing everything at once in one turn?

Goruax
16-01-2008, 03:28
Hey all, thought I'd drop my 3 pennies, 4 ten pences and 50p in here.

I'm just starting a Lizardmen army and have been looking at the spawnings.
One of the, apparantly, most overlooked spawnings is Huanchi's.

I don't know if the Sacred Host list is entirely legal (the disclaimer bit at the top of the PDF suggests so) but if your Saurus have the BSO Huanchi then you have a great movement advantage.

I'm not going for an entirely Saurus or Skink army (as skink hordes are out due to my fluff preferences) but a couple of Huanchi spawned Saurus units following up on a Skink-harrassing whilst moving at top-speed through jungle/woods is not to be sniffed at.

Whilst admittedly they still aren't fast, you can take a more direct and opportune route to your enemies, whilst they're floundering maneuvring.
It also means that any enemy units anchoring on a wooded piece of terrain are perfectly viable for your units.

And this is combined with a potential load of Kroxigor-Skink combo's at the same time.

Perhaps a refused flank sort of advance (oxymoronic in a way) would work best, using your Kroxigor to sweep away the anchoring units on the flank as the Saurus take on the central units (aided by characters) and then the Kroxigor trundle down the line.

Well, er, yes, that's my somewhat messy contribution :)

Feefait
16-01-2008, 16:50
Have you played with them?

on paper they are superb, but it just doesnt quite translate over to gameplay.

lol! Seriously? Some of the best troops in the game. Even bare bones they can stand up to almost anything. COldblooded, 2 attacks, 4 s 4 t, sorry but for 12 points it doesn't get much better.

Kongen
16-01-2008, 22:15
Saurus ARE good on paper, but SUCKS on the battlefield. I have played LM for 10 years now, and what I have learned, is that saurus aren't that good... Sorry to say it guys, but pick another unit than saurus..

Why? Well, sure the S-men have 2 attacks and can get a good armour save (3+ with spawning, handweapon and shield in frontal HtH combat) but what is it good for when 5 chaos knights/ironguts etc. charges u in the front, and makes a whole lot of wounds.? Then the S-men loose, and gets run down. Thats how they die.. On the run... Not to mention, that they suck a whole lot more if they get flank/rear charged to negate their rank-bonus! This is where their M4 is bad. Cause they never get the charge. You are playing a bad general if he lets your S-men go against his light infantry. It's just not gonna happend. Your S-men always get charged by something mean, cause they are so powerfull on the paper.
Yes, they are good against light infantry, but not at all good against anything hardhitting. Therefore will they just be easy points lost.

They are really good if u give them support, like krox, saurus cav or a stegadon, but so are skinks.

But I must say that a scar-vet is a MUST HAVE in any LM army IMO! This guy is bad! Because of the rep my scar-vets have gotten over the years, I now use them just to make a trap for my foe. Works brilliantly :P

kroq'gar
17-01-2008, 04:21
They cost 12 points and are just as hard for a ws4 elf to kill as an empire swordsman. thats why they dont quite work, especially when coupled with I1.

John Vaughan
19-01-2008, 02:00
Which is why Chaos Warriors still top them. What bested them was when the Saurus had a 3+ sv in CC against my chosen (who were considerably outnumbered). Too many attacks for them to take, even with 2+ armor save, and after killing a few of them.