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knightime98
30-12-2007, 12:01
So you have your unit of Flagellants and you charge a unit. You beat that unit after you martyr. Now the question is, the unit of Flagellants are Crazed with Frenzy and overrun into another Fresh Combat (NOT Fought this round, YET!)...
The question is, does the martyr rule still apply as the end of this combat round has not been finished. Do the Flagellants get the benefit of the Martyr Flagellants from the just now previous fight? Or do they have to Martyr again to get the ability?

DeathlessDraich
30-12-2007, 12:16
This has been discussed before. Hatred occurs in the 'first turn' of any close combat.
I think Atrahasis had the same opinion about this situation:
(Flags. wins combat (A) and now overruns into combat (B))

1) If combat (B) occurs in the same turn, i.e. overrun into an unresolved combat, then the Flags. do not benefit from Hatred as it will be the same combat turn (unless you differentiate 'combat round' and 'combat turn')

2) If combat (B) occurs in the next turn, then the Flags have to re-matyr.

Festus
30-12-2007, 12:16
p. 54 Empire AB:

At the start of each round of close combat... to the end of the close combat phase.

Festus

edit:
DDraich - I disagree. Hatred kicks in in the first round of a combat, not in the first round of a close-combat phase.
The Flaggelants benefit in both combats, as they are fighting a *first round of combat* twice in one close-combat-phase*. And the effect explicitly lasts until the end of the close combat phase.

Festus

Urgat
30-12-2007, 12:57
If it works for the whole combat phase, I'd assume it'd work on the second charged unit too, since it's in the same combat phase.

DeathlessDraich
30-12-2007, 13:14
Unfortunately not quite:
pg 45 "the pursuers get to fight anothe *round* of combat"

which must be the second round of combat and not the first.

Festus
30-12-2007, 13:20
The question -which decides the interpretation - is:

Is is the first round of combat in a close-combat phase or is it the first round of combat in a combat which makes you benefit from hatred.

I know where my interpretation is ... :)

TheDarkDaff
30-12-2007, 14:52
Frankly i can see reasons for both side being correct and can come up with justifications why both should be right. In the end as long as you are consistant it doesn't really matter.

Now if that Flagellant units overruns into an ongoing combat do they benifit from Hatred as it isn't really the first round of that combat but it is their first round of that combat.

Masque
30-12-2007, 14:54
Hatred applies during the "first turn of any close combat". A phase cannot contain one or more turns since the opposite is true so the rule must mean a combat not a combat phase.

theunwantedbeing
30-12-2007, 15:03
Hatred is for the first round of each combat.
Overruning is a new combat and not an additional round of another combat,
eg. flails would then not get their bonus as thats a first round only thing as well.

You work out each combat fully before moving to the next.
This includes the overrun and any flee/persuit moves. Hitting a new enemy starts a new combat round.

DeathlessDraich
30-12-2007, 16:04
Combat, round of combat? Round and round we go in another De ja vu discussion. :p.
Thought this through very carefully.


Hatred is for the first round of each combat.
Overruning is a new combat and not an additional round of another combat,


Not the 'first round' but the 'first turn'. Has to be distinguished to work this out.


Hatred applies during the "first turn of any close combat". A phase cannot contain one or more turns since the opposite is true so the rule must mean a combat not a combat phase.

A) Your interpretation of 'turn of combat' = Player turn pg 10.
Weakness here: not using the full phrase 'turn of combat' and omitting connotations from the word 'combat'

In this case:
Hatred remains with a unit for all combat rounds in a particular turn.
- similar to Festus.
This interpretation also leads to this possibility:

After overruning into an unresolved combat, Flagelllants can Martyr again! The previous benefits from End is Nigh is nullified except for Hatred.

This is because they martyr "at the start of each *round* of combat" and pg 45 rules.

B) Interpreting 'turn of combat' = round of combat.
This leads to my original interpretation.
This relies on the weakness of the phrase 'turn of combat'.
Strictly speaking there is no such thing. There can be only Player Turns and Phases within that turn - Combat phase in this case.

Weakness here: Not giving sufficient attention to the definition of 'Turn'.

Again the Flagellants can martyr again when they overrun into unresolved combat but any previous Hatred from a previous matyrdom is not carried over.

So it all boils down to how you want to interpret 'turn of combat'.
Festus has made his choice.:D

Masque
30-12-2007, 16:37
Hatred applies during the "first turn of any close combat". A phase cannot contain one or more turns since the opposite is true so the rule must mean a combat not a combat phase.


A) Your interpretation of 'turn of combat' = Player turn pg 10.
Weakness here: not using the full phrase 'turn of combat' and omitting connotations from the word 'combat'

I'm really not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying the rules don't use the full phrase 'turn of combat'? They do that and more. See my previous quote. What connotations are you implying that I or the rules are omitting?


In this case:
Hatred remains with a unit for all combat rounds in a particular turn.
- similar to Festus.
This interpretation also leads to this possibility:

After overruning into an unresolved combat, Flagelllants can Martyr again! The previous benefits from End is Nigh is nullified except for Hatred.

This is because they martyr "at the start of each *round* of combat" and pg 45 rules.

Why would the previous benefits be nulified except for Hatred? The End is Nigh clearly states that it's effects all last until the end of the phase.


B) Interpreting 'turn of combat' = round of combat.
This leads to my original interpretation.
This relies on the weakness of the phrase 'turn of combat'.
Strictly speaking there is no such thing. There can be only Player Turns and Phases within that turn - Combat phase in this case.

You do agree that a 'combat' can last several 'turns', correct?

Borthcollective
30-12-2007, 16:38
But the rules do not say Hatred is only in the first round of close combat per "turn". It says first "turn" of close combat. Close combat can last many turns, the initial combat only lasted one since this is an overrun question. Now the next combat which the overrun takes them into is also in it's first "turn" even though it happens in the same round.

The martyr rule specifically states that the ability can only be used at the beginning of the close combat round, yours and your enemies, that you can use the ability.

So my opinion is yes to hatred carrying over, and no to being able to sacrifice more martyrs.