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PKAwolf
16-04-2005, 01:22
I was reading some old fluff about the High Lords and learned how some seats are not perminate. Some of the perminate ones make sence like the:
Master of the Administrum
Represenitave of the Inquisition (who changes based on who is available)
Ecclesiarch of the Ministrum
the Fabricator General
the ruling Navigator house seat
Master of the Astronomican
Master of the Astra Telepathica

But the Grand Master of the Offico Assassinorum and the Marshel of the Adeptus Abrites have perminate seats while the remaining 3 seats are rotated by:
Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solor
Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard (arn't these 2 the same)
Cardnal of the Synod of Terra (don't they have representation from the Ecclesiarch)
the Abbess of the Adeptus Sororitas
Captin-General of the Adeptus Custodes
Chancellor of the Estate Imperium
Speaker of the Chartest Captians (who are these clowns?)

Now why do the Arbites and Assassins have a perm seat while the Guard and Sisters some times get one. And at the same time why arnt the Space Marines not represented? Although I think it admilable the SM stay out politics and see the difficulty in electing one of the 1,000 chapter masters who'd rather be fighting the enemy than fighting for a 'turn to talk'.
And as far as the Chancellor of the Estate Imperium, Captin-General of the Adeptus Custodes and Speaker of the Chartest Captians, while they have important jobs, it seems to me that some of these organizations arn't important/powerful enough to warrent a seat in front of the TV to watch the High Lords on C-Span. Its like the forman of an assembly line having a chair of the board of directors.

any thoughts?

Khaine's Messenger
16-04-2005, 03:58
Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solor
Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard (arn't these 2 the same)

I don't see why, unless you're making a generalization about the title "Lord Solar."


Cardnal of the Synod of Terra (don't they have representation from the Ecclesiarch)

It could be argued that he might be included so that more myriad doctrinal issues are represented (so that, if the Ecclesiarch has competition, the other High Lords can snicker and just magically negate his "vote"). Either that, or a cheap way to get more "free" representation in the High Lords.


Speaker of the Chartest Captians (who are these clowns?)

Probably the more powerful "charter"ed merchants in the Imperium (which may or may not include Rogue Traders).


Now why do the Arbites and Assassins have a perm seat while the Guard and Sisters some times get one.

Guard and Sisters are, roughly, organizational subdivisions of organizations that already have permanent seats (Administratum and Ministorum respectively, iirc).


And at the same time why arnt the Space Marines not represented?

Because they choose not to be. Space Marines were never represented on the ruling council of the Imperium (in the War Council, yes). The only "Space Marine" ever to be a High Lord was Guilliman. I wouldn't be surprised if he even made an edict forbidding it happening again.


it seems to me that some of these organizations arn't important/powerful enough to warrent a seat in front of the TV to watch the High Lords on C-Span.

What makes you say that? One of those organizations guards the Emperor personally on a daily basis and has even proven to be instrumental in Terran politics at least once in Imperial history.

taer
16-04-2005, 04:14
Plus, if it wasn't for the custodes, how would the Emperor be able to watch C-span on his holy large screen? He is just a skull in a vat after all.

PKAwolf
16-04-2005, 05:33
well with the custodes, their primary duties are to guard the Emperor
what of any of their secondary duties effects wether the imperium expands or if the tithe need raising or if a truce is struck with the eldar/tau whatever?

taer
16-04-2005, 05:37
Because as the emperor's guard they also essentially hold him hostage. Plus they are the only ones privy to the divine something-or-otherings of him on the Golden tea-kettle. Given that, I think they have definite interest in the workings of thier hostage's empire.

PKAwolf
16-04-2005, 05:51
@ taer
they do but Im still not convinced the "palace guards" really are taken credibily in political matters

taer
16-04-2005, 06:12
You mean the Imperium's Masonists

Khaine's Messenger
16-04-2005, 06:19
well with the custodes, their primary duties are to guard the Emperor

And you don't see why this alone allows them to wield powerful political sway? We don't even know if these are the same custodes that walked with the Emperor (or at least I don't); you don't think that these men who share the Emperor's dream moreso than anyone else in the galaxy, these men for whom the Emperor defaced his own armor with their names in order to remember when some of them died, should have a say in the game of galactic politics that is carried on in the Emperor's name?

Although I suppose I should point out that they do not just "guard" the Emperor. They are the gates through which others access Him. Those who hold all the cards when dealing in "resources" such as access tend to have a great deal of political influence.

Witch Hunter
16-04-2005, 06:46
I'd go so far as to argue that the Adeptus Custodes are the single most powerful POLITICAL entity on Terra, if not the Segmentum Solar or the entire Imperium. They represent the Emperor, and the God-Emperor of mankind is the force that holds the Imperium together(It is HIS empire after all).

milmot
17-04-2005, 06:11
I would imagine that the custodes would actually claim to be the voice of the emperor. I.e. "we represent the emperor and to go against our will is to go against the emperor's".

Although i'm sure pretty much everyone else on the coucil would object to this.

Then again... now that i thought about this more. It might be the reverse. They could claim to be the eyes and ears of them emperor, and are simply on the coucil to observe what everyone else is doing so they can "inform" the emperor (talk to him on his immortal throne).

Talkie Toaster
18-04-2005, 18:57
That sounds about right for the Imperium, there probably needs to be someone on the council who's only task is to worship the Emperor with no other distractions, to prevent petty ambition from the rest to ruin things. 'The Emperor Is Watching' is a lot easier to remember when his best warrior is seated two chairs to the left.

Minister
19-04-2005, 02:26
I would also point out that the purpose of the Cardinals and the Prioress is to stack the votes in favour of the Ecclesiarchy, in the same way as the Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar (or, more rarley, one of the other Segmentae) and the Lord COmmander Militant of the Imperial Guard will most likley tow the line set by their political head in the form of the Master of the Administratum. The Navigators and mechanicus often side with each other, due to their close trade links and their mutual perception as "outsiders" by the others.

bigred
19-04-2005, 03:42
...........
Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solor
Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard (arn't these 2 the same)
...........

Note that the Commander of the the Segmuntum Solar is an Imperial NAVAL officer, while the Commander of the Imperial Guard is an Imperial GROUND FORCES officer. These two have very different duties and may at any given time work in unison or at cross purposes. It is also easy to see (from the Eye of Terror campaign) how the political power and fortunes of these two may wax and wane in relation to each other.

-Bigred

Delicious Soy
19-04-2005, 03:55
Note that the Commander of the the Segmuntum Solar is an Imperial NAVAL officer, while the Commander of the Imperial Guard is an Imperial GROUND FORCES officer. These two have very different duties and may at any given time work in unison or at cross purposes. It is also easy to see (from the Eye of Terror campaign) how the political power and fortunes of these two may wax and wane in relation to each other.That Lord Commander Solar is a naval position is a matter of debate. It could equally be the feudal lord of segmentum solar, speaking as a position of the interstellar aristocracy (ie those above the planetary governors). It would make more sense for the Imperial Navy to have no representative for the same reaons as the Space Marines, checks and balances.

The Imperial system was created to prevent another Horus coming to power, hence the Marines have no politcal influence. In that line of reasoning the navy too should be banned because they serve as the 'glue' of the Imperium, they wield a power almost on par with the Astartes (in some cases more so). The Navy could, given suffcient time to marshal its forces, simply be done with the IG and use security personnel, trained in boarding action anyway, to function as a troop detachment. Giving the IG a seat on the high lords would increase their influence and prevent the dominance of the navy.

bigred
19-04-2005, 15:01
Hey Soy,

I'm basing my assertion on that really long set of background articles that accompanied Space Fleet back the early 90s. They were in the White Dwarfs in the early 200s.

The article went into detail about the Imperial Navy's structure and the organization of the Navigator houses. Back then everything having to do with "Segmentums" was explicitly a naval reference. The commander of the Segmentum Solar was the naval equivalent of the US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the "highest of equals" selected from the 5 navel commanders of the various Segmentums.

I would say that you arguments surrounding the Navy are backwards. Normally you bring powerful parties INTO the political sphere (the high lords) to control and moderate their behavior. The very fact that there are naval commanders responsible for control of entire Segmentums, means that they really need to be included in the High Lords. That is a lot of power to leave "floating" freely in the Imperium.

The space marines were self regulating (thanks to Guilliman) and dont have a seat, as their individual chapters, with their byzantine feudal obligations and oaths no longer have the ability to rebel EN MASSE, and are thus overall a net neutral as far as internal security goes. The Badab conflict shows, that while even small numbers of chapters may rebel, the Imperium can deal with them over time.

I wouldnt worry to much about the navy "press ganging" its ratings into a substitute military force. With no access to the heavy ground equipment the guard uses (produced by the Fabricator General), there is only so far an army of naval ratings armed with wrenches and plasma torches will get you.

-bigred

Minister
20-04-2005, 01:38
Side-track here.

The Lord Commander of a segmentum is the supreme military commander of that region. This dates back to the one existant Lord Commander of the Imperium (a certain Primach who I shouldn't have to name, the only military commander to have control over the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces). After his (possible) death, the post was split (no-one else could be trusted to that degree, and he probably set the system up in that way in any case) and five commanders took over what was once a single role. These five control the military forces under the command of the Administratum (chiefly the Guard and Navy) in the Emperor's name. If further proof that a Guard officer can hold the post were needed, I would point you at a certain Lord COmmander of the Segmentum Solar who made quite a name for himself doing Alexander the Great impersonations on the Western Fringe.

milmot
20-04-2005, 02:09
To sidetrack even further...

Who is the planetary governor equivelent for Terra?
And does this person hold any power at all?

Or perhaps there is no "head of Terra" but is simply run by the Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solor as his HQ

PKAwolf
20-04-2005, 22:07
as far a govenor of terra
terra is almost entirely palaces of every major organization who seem to be pretty well self goverened or of more influence/power than any governor would ever have
maybe its just 'policed' by the arbites
because how could any governer bully around the navigators, or the commander of the imperial guard, or the grand master of assassins ect.
there is no ruling them, you just keep them from killing each other
but i may be wrong

milmot
21-04-2005, 02:57
More questions:

Are there any Imperial Guards raised from Terra?
Any information on the Garrison on Terra?
And also i vaguely remember that a Space Marine Chapter is based on Terra. Can someone confirm/deny this?

Minister
21-04-2005, 04:08
Terra has no unified government. Australia is rules by the Ecclesiarchy, most of Eurasia is under direct Administratum control (policed by the Arbitrators directly rather than mere police units), the various enclaves are close to sovreign states (being akin to embasies in many cases). The Navigators' Quarter (which I assume to be North Ammerica) is left alone by the Imperial authorities, its glistening spires a monument to what can be done with near-unlimited wealth and no taste to restrain you.

Delicious Soy
21-04-2005, 08:29
Minister & Bigred:

Okay I'll say the waters are muddied because we're going off different sources. I cased my assertions off the BFG background and the modern IG codex. In the BFG its stated that the highest rank in the Navy is Lord High Admiral, though it also says they can be a High Lord (which fits because in Codex imperialis its stated that the list is not definitive).

And I know there's been debate before about the rank of Lord Solar being a euphemism for Warmaster (or being higher than Warmaster). I'd say that if Macharius was in fact Lord Commander of Segmentum Solar, how did he end up campaigning on the fringe of Segmentum Pacificus?

And finally:

I'd suggest the navy be kept out of the High Lords because if they aren't part of the High Lords, then they are responsible to them. The have no say in where they are sent or why. Which is why I find it odd that the assassins have a seat (though as I've said in the pre heresy Inquisition thread, their accountability to the Emperor alone probably played a part in that).

A Navy Rebellion is dangerous because in addition to the ratings they have the security arm who conduct the boarding torpedo attacks and specialist demoilition. A well trained force like that would have to be tightly regulated to prevent it superceding the IG.

Minister
21-04-2005, 09:37
The idea of the unified Segmentum command far predates the stuff in the latest Guard codex, which I am gleefuly ignoring because the old one makes more sense :D. Macharius was not given command in the western fringe, he raised a personal crusade, having taken it upon himself to join with the resurgency in the Imperium after the Conclave of Gathalamor. Thus he was both a Warmaster and a Lord Commander (the possibility exists that he resigned that post but was allowed to retain it as a courtesy title).