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View Full Version : Wouldn't Ogyrns be ideal canidates for the transformation into Marines?



Inquizitor Aohd
31-12-2007, 16:52
Why or why not?

heretics bane
31-12-2007, 16:55
there ab-humans not generaly as human that it takes to create marines.

Im pretty sure something of their size and mass would have some completely different metabolisms compared to "normal" humans and may have a few mutations it their genes which would make them unable to effeciently us eth organs that a marine has.

And the fact that they have and incredibly low IQ and the cost to produce marines is very high so you want some one who knows what there doing in the pwoer armour and with there incredible expensive and rare(someimes) weapons

warmaster_dan
31-12-2007, 16:57
No
1. We don't know for sure if the process works for abhumans
2. They're as thick as two short pieces of flakboard
3. They're so huge that armour would have to be custom-made
4. The emperor/high lords would frown on it

EDIT: Ninja'd

Baltar
31-12-2007, 17:09
They're too stupid to be space marines.

icegreentea
31-12-2007, 17:12
I don't think even a super augmented Ogyrn could figure out the idea of "kill the leader first".

Stahlgeist
31-12-2007, 17:24
Nah - 'cause of:

1) Their innate stupidity

2) The need to develop MUCH larger suits of power armor

3) The Black Carapace doesn't grow on trees :D

Also, it's much more economical to remove 3/4 of their brain and make them gun servitors! :chrome:

sabreu
31-12-2007, 17:45
honestly, I think most marines are too stupid to be marines. O.o

Not to mention every Astartes suit is custom made...

...and theres no set growth pattern of the black carapace detailed as of yet...

...and the high lords can't process what happens in the entire galaxy...

...and lastly, abhumans are still human at their genetic base...

Mr_Rose
31-12-2007, 17:52
...and lastly, abhumans are still human at their genetic base...

No they're not. They were, once, many generations ago. They are now separate species with no evidence of being able to cross-breed with normal humans. In addition, the Space Marine implants are really damn picky about the host's biochemistry; if they can't be made to work with women, who are genetically indistinguishable from males in all but one respect, trying to make them work in Ogryns would be about as productive as trying to get them to work in Orks.

HorgothTheGreat
31-12-2007, 18:05
That'd be awesome. o_o Ork Marines. Damn.

Baltar
31-12-2007, 18:29
No they're not. They were, once, many generations ago. They are now separate species with no evidence of being able to cross-breed with normal humans.

Do you have a source for this? I see Ogryns and Ratlings the same way I see, for example, the genetic differentiation between a Pommeranian and a German Shepherd. They look different because of differences in genetic history, but they can still interbreed.

If they were TRULY a different species, they would be Xenos, and the Imperium wouldn't use them.

vforvenator
31-12-2007, 18:48
You all seem to be forgetting that the Imperium is at heart and most fundamentally a theocracy- the idea of a Holy Primarch's sacred progenoid glands being joined with the wretched metabolism of a filthy, degenerate Abhuman would be more than unthinkable, an utterly detestable, blasphemous notion to any honourable Marine - any truly Loyal chapter would surely turn renegade rather than contemplate the idea...

Baltar
31-12-2007, 18:52
You all seem to be forgetting that the Imperium is at heart and most fundamentally a theocracy- the idea of a Holy Primarch's sacred progenoid glands being joined with the wretched metabolism of a filthy, degenerate Abhuman would be more than unthinkable, an utterly detestable, blasphemous notion to any honourable Marine - any truly Loyal chapter would surely turn renegade rather than contemplate the idea...

Thats interesting considering the Sisters of Battle consider the Marines themselves to be just as Abhuman as the Ogryns.

TheOverlord
31-12-2007, 19:06
The marines BECOME ab-human, but must be human to begin with. Apparently the gene-seed requires a certain amount of genetic purity to work (I forget what book, but it has to do with Dark Angels) and I don't think Ogryns fit the bill. Not to mention many Astartes hate Ab-humans with a passion.

And the sisters can think all they want, most can barely think out of a paper bag :D

Baltar
31-12-2007, 19:08
Well, when someone has a bolter, power armor, and the sanction of the Imperium to wipe your ass out if you so much as look at an Inquisitor the wrong way, I would tend to listen to what they say.

Brother Thuemoose
31-12-2007, 19:11
Do you have a source for this? I see Ogryns and Ratlings the same way I see, for example, the genetic differentiation between a Pommeranian and a German Shepherd. They look different because of differences in genetic history, but they can still interbreed.

If they were TRULY a different species, they would be Xenos, and the Imperium wouldn't use them.


Just because they are not members of Homo sapiens sapiens doesn't mean that they are automatically Xenos. There have been plenty of organisms within the Homo genus, but they are still considered human by the scientists who study their remains. Likewise, abhumans (such as ogryns, ratlings, and squats) are related to Homo sapiens sapiens because they are direct descendants.

If there are enough genetic differences to prevent the creation of fertile offspring, then they are different species. Your example with the dogs does not hold: a Pomeranian and a German Sheppard are still members of the same species (Canis lupus familiaris).

However, the 3rd edition rulebook states that they are a subspecies (Homo sapiens gigantus) (pg. 239). That said, I doubt a normal human and an ogryn could mate due to anatomical differences.

*Edited for spelling

Baltar
31-12-2007, 19:14
If there are enough genetic differences to prevent the creation of fertile offspring, then they are different species. Your example with the dogs does not hold: a Pomeranian and a German Sheppard are still members of the same species (Canis lupus familiaris).


That was what I was pointing out - that HUGE levels of differentiation can exist within species that are still capable of mating with each other.

And...considering that Commissar Cain relates a story of a female Ogryn hitting on his aide at a bar, I can only imagine that Ogryns and standard humans probably can have sex. :D

EVIL INC
31-12-2007, 19:15
I would guess that thier gene-seed might be too divergent to be "workable" Unless that is, they were able to interbreed with "normal" humans, then that case would be null.
The making of armor and equipment to fit the size is also not a matter of question because we all know that the Imperium does not mind wasting resources. Especially in the cause of war.
Intelligence... That is likely a valid issue. Of course, with proper education at an early age, most ogryn would not be near as stupid as the current uneducated ones (early intellectual stimulation is key in the developement of brain synapses). Also, the enhancesments could also greatly improve brain wave activity.
The MAIN reason that I can see is prejudice plain and simple. Because of the stupidity of the ones found, they are not educated and no effort is made to help them in this area. Take a human and raise them in the manner the ogryn are raised and in the same enviroment, they will also appear to be stupid. Not as stupid, but still stupid. The concept in imperial society that ogryn are lesser and not worthy makes people believe that they do not deserve the boon of marinehood. Add to this the fact that were were "rediscovered" and were stupid upon thier recovery, the imperial view of them was prejudiced from the start.

In essence, if they are "human" enough to interbreed or the genes to match, it could be possible. They would have to be "prepped" or educated beforehand. Additional enhancements would be neccessary (tech neccessary might not be up to snuff though). And the imperium would need to lose some of it's bigotry.
Not gonna happen.

Edit: On the interbreeding aspect. it would not matter if the offspring were fertile because marines pretty give up any concept of "breeding" when they undergo the marine change so it doesnt matter if they are fertile or not. For the actual having "sex", that doesnt matter. Heck look at humans today, some of the "odder" people of today dont bother to keep it in the same species.

TheOverlord
31-12-2007, 19:23
I dunno. If you're 8 feet tall, genetically superior in all aspects, and have lived several centuries and fought in hundreds of wars, independent of the Imperium, I don't think they'll listen to a bunch of hymn singing platitude muttering women too closely, if you get my drift :D

Brother Thuemoose
31-12-2007, 19:26
That was what I was pointing out - that HUGE levels of differentiation can exist within species that are still capable of mating with each other.

And...considering that Commissar Cain relates a story of a female Ogryn hitting on his aide at a bar, I can only imagine that Ogryns and standard humans probably can have sex. :D

Ah, my bad.

As for Cain's aide, didn't the Ogryn mistake him for another Ogryn (and wasn't she drunk as well)?

My point about the anatomical differences was that, while they may be genetically capable of producing fertile offspring, there would be... issues, in the physical act of mating.

EVIL INC
31-12-2007, 19:31
lol, Only if the mother was the human (and not a porn star).

Da Black Gobbo
31-12-2007, 19:36
the main reason is because you need a brain to understand the complicated tactics that marines use to follow and ogryns only use their brains to pull their weapon's trigger til it sounds "click".

Kage2020
31-12-2007, 19:52
Completely incidentally, I'm also on the side of "No, they do not make ideal candidates for Marines" camp. For me it's based purely upon their intelligence, or with the case of the Ogryns their lack thereof.

(As to the 'biology' of it all, I think we're already on shaky enough grounds when it comes down to Ogryns in the first place. ;))

Kage

Mr_Rose
31-12-2007, 19:53
the main reason is because you need a brain to understand the complicated tactics that marines use to follow and ogryns only use their brains to pull their weapon's trigger til it sounds "click".
You sure about that? Sounds messy to me....


:p

Kage2020
31-12-2007, 19:56
Nah, it's only the BONEheaders that actually use their brains for pulling the trigger. Normal ogryns just bash the guns on the ground with the hazy hope that it will kill whatever is threatening them. Whether it is the result of bashing their enemy into pulp, or a projectile miraculously coming out of the end and striking that enemy, really isn't one of their concerns. ;)

(The above is, of course, tongue-in-cheek...)

Kage

heretics bane
31-12-2007, 20:01
And...considering that Commissar Cain relates a story of a female Ogryn hitting on his aide at a bar, I can only imagine that Ogryns and standard humans probably can have sex. :D

Said "mating" would likely be incredibly painful and fatal to the person in volved. And i dont think that they could fully reproduce off spring? are ogryns compatable with humans?

Kage2020
31-12-2007, 20:15
Well, they are abhumans, meaning that they are merely changed humans...

Kage

InquisitorRex
31-12-2007, 20:26
It could not work without the perverse powers of Chaos being brought into play. Even then it's doubtful.

As already stated, no Chapter (and probably no legion) would consider it. When they are initiated Space Marines transcend humanity, in a way - they cast of their mortality and honour the Emperor and his subjects, etc.

Ogryns, on the other hand are a barely tolerated strain of abhumans, unable to fit the spiritual, mental (and i dare say) physical requirements of the Adeptus Astartes.

Kudos for the bonkers question though. It's right up there with the Female Marines, Sigmar is a Primarch etc.

Adam

sabreu
31-12-2007, 22:26
Nah, it's only the BONEheaders that actually use their brains for pulling the trigger. Normal ogryns just bash the guns on the ground with the hazy hope that it will kill whatever is threatening them. Whether it is the result of bashing their enemy into pulp, or a projectile miraculously coming out of the end and striking that enemy, really isn't one of their concerns. ;)

(The above is, of course, tongue-in-cheek...)

Kage

Well, if it's on a strict intelligence basis your objecting, may I point out that the Fleshtearers chapter recruit from pretty stupid humanoids themselves. Apparently intelligence is not a prerequisite amongst all chapters.


the main reason is because you need a brain to understand the complicated tactics that marines use to follow and ogryns only use their brains to pull their weapon's trigger til it sounds "click".

Not necessarily true, especially in the case of those who just charge into combat with a large malet. :p


Said "mating" would likely be incredibly painful and fatal to the person in volved. And i dont think that they could fully reproduce off spring? are ogryns compatable with humans?

Not wanting to violate board rules, all I have to say on that is their are some people who mate with animals. Big animals. The human body is a strange and frightening thing...


It could not work without the perverse powers of Chaos being brought into play. Even then it's doubtful.

As already stated, no Chapter (and probably no legion) would consider it. When they are initiated Space Marines transcend humanity, in a way - they cast of their mortality and honour the Emperor and his subjects, etc.

Ogryns, on the other hand are a barely tolerated strain of abhumans, unable to fit the spiritual, mental (and i dare say) physical requirements of the Adeptus Astartes.

Kudos for the bonkers question though. It's right up there with the Female Marines, Sigmar is a Primarch etc.

Adam

A few corrections here:

1.) Chaos is not the perverbial holy grail of 'out there' possibilities. It does not account for even half the strange stuff that happens in the 40k universe. Need proof? just look at the imagery of Terra in the rule book. Cherubs and spidery man people intertwined in a matrix-esque fashion. People believe Machines have spirits, turn people in automatons, and others can launch ******* lightning bolts out their palms.

2.) And it's 'No chapter in their right minds' would do something like that. As we know, most chapters aren't in their right mind. :D An Inquisitor has to protest against some things, doncha suppose?

3.) Yes, Ogryns are abhumans. The Imperium has even given them a superfluous sub-species genus. But this is the same Imperium that supresses free thought and is xenophobic in the extreme. Of course anything but the perfect image of humanity would be degraded in such a way. Sorta like alot of times in our own history; American slave masters considered african-americans a completely different species, and in that time it was fact, but as we know that certainly isn't true.

4.) 40k and Fantasy were originally hinted to be connected and that was later retconned. :D So that had some legitimate roots for awhile.

Kage2020
31-12-2007, 22:39
Well, if it's on a strict intelligence basis your objecting, may I point out that the Fleshtearers chapter recruit from pretty stupid humanoids themselves. Apparently intelligence is not a prerequisite amongst all chapters.
And thus one of the reasons that the "exception to an exception of an exception" approach of GW is problematic and, in some cases (this included) distilling the quality of the product somewhat.

Kage

GodofWarTx
01-01-2008, 01:25
Dont the fleshtearers recruit from primal, yet cunning people? Im not sure the Ogryns really rely on their cunning. A fox is cunning, but not considered especially intelligent.

In regards to the Space Marines being labeled as abhumans, i believe official background goes into this. Several cardinals believe this, but run into a roadblock when confronted with the fact that they were trusted by the emperor and are in fact closer to him (the emperor) genetically than the cardinal is. This same conundrum applies to anti-pysker sentiment , when confronted with the fact that the Emperor himself was one of the galaxies most potent psykers.

Felwether
01-01-2008, 05:36
Many SM chapters recruit from feral worlds. Just because a human is feral doesn't mean they're stupid, they're just not educated, they're still human and therefore generally have the same capacity for learning as any other human whereas Ogryns are just... well... incredibly stupid.