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Makaber
22-09-2005, 04:05
I've been playing Warhammer for about two years now, and I still only have one army, namely beastmen. I want to try something else, with a decent leadership, ranked units, and missile weapons. I like my armies a little off-center, so I'm currently looking at the Dogs of War. However, I have absolutely no idea how to deal with the units, since they are so drastically different from my usual lot. This is sort of the list I'm working on.

HQ:

Mercenary General w/ heavy armour, shield, pistol, Sword of Might, Talisman of Protection: 144 pts.

I've intended the general to go in a central mainstay unit like pikemen or dwarves, to bolster morale, and hopefully staying away from more well-off characters.

Paymaster w/ heavy armour, pistol, enchanted shield: 76 pts.

Goes in a defensive unit, stays the heck alive aided by his 2+ armour save.

Mercenary Captain w/ heavy armour, pistol, lance, shield, on pegasus: 117 pts.

Takes out warmachines and is a nuisance.

Wizard w/ two dispell scrolls, level 2: 145 pts.

Normally I loathe scroll caddies, but I feel I can take one here with a clear concience. ;)

Core:

15 Duellists w/ pistols: 135 pts.

I'm sure 15 is excessive, but I've been on the recieving end of duellists before, and they are absolutely lethal. If charged, they can all stand and shoot since they're skirmishers, and they still get their pistol shots in the following melee. However, I'm also ready to lower the size a little if told 15 is ridicilous.

30 Pikemen w/ heavy armour, full command: 360 pts.

I figured 25 is the norm for spears, so I went with 30 pikemen on a hunch. Is a 6x5 unit okay? They can probably be tweaked down to 29 to accomodate a character and still look neat.

10 Crossbowmen: 80 pts.

10 Crossbowmen: 80 pts.

I initially thought about a large unit of 20, but I guess they're just as good in smaller units deployed together. More frontage and all that, if there's no hill available. I dunno. I don't normally have missile weapons, so I want to include a bunch here.

10 Heavy Cavalry w/ barding, full command: 255 pts.

If I have points to burn, I might very well crank this up to Volan's Venators for a better champion and Strength 4 for 60 pts. 10 is a normal size, yeah?

Special:

25 Norse Marauders w/ flails, full command: 230 pts.

I figured flails are neater than great weapons in this case, both because they're slightly cheaper, and because the marauders have an Initiative of 4. Can come in handy in a second round of melee, if they fail to break their enemy in the initial charge.

Rare:

Cannon: 85 pts.

Cannon: 85 pts.

Not terribly exiting, but the other choices are so-so, and warmachines is something I normally don't get to toy around with.

Total so far: 1792 pts.

So there you have it. There's a couple of things I'm considering for the remaining 200 pts, or otherwise making room for somehow.

Light cavalry. I allready have some lovely marauder horsemen I could use for the purpose.

Paymaster Bodyguard. I'd like these because they're so characterful, but I don't know how to use them. They seem offensive, but they only have a single WS4 S4 attack each. They can be Stubborn, but they'd die in droves on the defense, with an armour save of 5+ (at best). How do they work? Worth the effort?

Dwarves. They look fun, and really hard. I've never been too fond of dwarves, though, so they're not that high up on the priority list.

Ruglud's Armoured Orcs. Wonderfully unpredictable and exlectic. I don't know what to make of them exactly, but they're not too expensive, I've always wanted some orcs, and they'd look awesome on the table. Maybe ditch a crossbow unit to make room for them?

The Cursed Company. I hear a lot of good stuff about these guys, and they certainly look the part on paper. I also have a bunch of skeletons tossing around, so it would be cheap (money-wise) to buy.

So, what should I do? Anything currently in the list that's less than ideal? What should I get for my remaining points?

User Name
22-09-2005, 04:50
I would suggest paymasters bodygaurd if you take a paymaster.

The marauders should have shields. they just make such a more reliable and usefull unit with a 4+ save.

Perhaps some ironguts ogers or perhaps maneaters.

Ddwarfs are also rock solid unit. 20 with full command and hw and shield and heavy armour and if theres a nice hill X-bows on the unit woll make them deadly with bolt shots and there extreamly hard liittle buggers to kill.

Makaber
22-09-2005, 05:20
I appreciate that you're trying to help, but I really don't agree with you.

Paymaster isn't an option: It's mandatory to take one.

Are you sure about giving Marauders shields? You do know they're frenzied, yeah? 11 strength 5 attacks on WS 4 just seems to sweet to pass up on. They're also on 20mm bases, so you get a lot more of them into close combat. Of course, there's nothing stopping me from taking both. Shields are after all only a point a pop, so it's quite affordable.

Giving crossbows to a unit of 20 dwarves would cost 100 points, I could get 12 crossbowmen for that price.

Not sure about ogres: It's a role I feel is better filled by other units. For heavy hitters, heavy cavalry can do much the same job. Sure, they do slightly less damage, but the cavalry gets more unit strength cheaper, and can withstand a hell of a lot more punishment. The ogres have fear, but you need a unit in the region of 8 for it to kick into effect against most regiments. Besides, I am accustomed to using minotaurs a lot, so I'd prefer something different from what I normally use.

Taffsadar
22-09-2005, 08:29
First of all, why are you giving your characters pistols? They only got a 6" range and your only allowed to use one weapon in hand to hand combat.

I generally prefer duellists in 8 or 9 strong units, you could pretty much split your unit in half and get a really nice unit. You get less shots when standing and shooting but you should rather run away than get caught in a charge so it's not really a big downside compared to how much more efficent two smaller duellist units becomes.

The same goes for the marauders, they are excellent but you really want them in smaller units. They make extraordinarily good can openers with great weapons or flails but their lack of armour means that they should be used as support rather than main battle units. A unit of marauders hitting the flank of a heavy cavalry unit stuck on a pike or dwarf unit will turn the tide of the battle in most cases. Therefor I think you should turn them into two 10 man units (or 12, which can be neat for a +2 rank bonus or 4 extra attacks). I also think you should use great weapons rather than flails. You won't make use of the good initiative but 10 S3 attacks will be less useful than 6 S5 attacks.

This does weaken your battle line so you definatly hire either a dwarf unit or a unit of pikemen for your remaining points.

Taffsadar
22-09-2005, 08:31
Btw, have you thought about putting your paymaster on the pegasus? It might sound abit unconventional but think about it. If he gets shot will the pegasus most likely be the one biting the dust while your paymaster heads for the nearest wood. The great weakness with this is of course that you can't be as reckless with the paymaster as you want too but you will never get charged so it might actually pay off.

Sanjuro
22-09-2005, 10:15
Your paymaster currently has a 3+ save, not a 2+. Heavy armour gives 5+, enchanted shield gives another +2 to armour save - that makes 3+. You cannot use the parry rule in close combat if either of your hand weapon/shield are magical.

Sorry if I come off as snarky, but I am in a bit of a rush. Will give you some additional tips!

Regarding pikemen: there are 2 good unit sizes: 24 and 28 (not including characters). You could also go with 20, but that's a bit too few for my liking.

The reason? They strike in 4 ranks. You will want to utilize this to the fullest, so deploy them in 4 ranks maximum, and then just add to their frontage. 6 wide, that's 24 (23 if you're gonna put a char in there), 7 wide that's 28.

Duellists: I personally wouldn't use more than 10, since they get hard to manouver around the flanks of the enemies and hide when they reach 15. Then again, they are practically a main combat unit at that stage, so I guess it could work. Try it before you buy it is my suggestion!

10 knights is a bit much. I'd say 2 units of 6 with no command but perhaps a champion or musician will give you more tactical flexibility and more bang for your buck. I.e. you do not have 5 knights who are doing nothing but adding a rank bonus and possibly outnumbering, when they could be charging in with their nice S5 attacks (and horse attacks at S3 as well).

I've actually broken and run down a unit of Pusbags (basically Skaven slaves on steroids - they have flails and cloud of flies) with a plague priest in it with only 3 DoW knights that charged them - in the front!

I think you will also appreciate ogres if you try them. That's my tips for now! I will pop back in here later to blabber on some more. DoW is one of my favourite armies.

Commissar Vaughn
22-09-2005, 10:26
i play dow also. the paymasters bodyguard are quite good. 20 of mine went toe to toe with 20 greatswords (with the griffon banner) for about 7 rounds, at the end there were only four models left out of 40 but they werent imperial lackys! i always take em for the stubborn thing.

also love the dwarfs. at 16pts each fully equipped they are pricy but have tremendous stopping power, i usually take 16.

halflings are brilliant! love these guys ive got loads of S4 xbow, but it helps to have the move and shoot BS4 bows as well. and only 6pts each and a better ld the a human.

dueslists come in small units without pistols to protect the flank of my pikes and paymaster, good for harrassing and units of 6 easy to overlook.

i wouldnt bother with a hero on pegasus, another wizard would probably be a better bet.

havnt time for more damn it, hope that helps!

Makaber
22-09-2005, 13:48
Thanks for all the input! You've certainly given me food for thought.

Why pistols? They're not too expensive, and I'm sure I can manage to sneak off a shot here and there. This is especially true with the pegasus, as it will often need a round to position itself before a charge (flying over a battleline, landing near a warmachine, ect.). Also, in the case of the Paymaster, gives him the option of two handweapons if that is desirable.

I guess you're right regarding great weapons over flails on the marauders.

The pegasus is staying, for three reasons: First, I want new toys to play with, and a monster (abeit a weak one) is something I'd like to try out. Secondly, the model would look sweet. Finally, I still believe a flyer hero has some merit.

I was wondering about the save for the Paymaster, actually. I know the handweapon & shield bonus goes away the moment you have something that isn't clearly labelled a handweapon, but I was unaware of any restrictions regarding magical shield. I couldn't find any mention in my Big Red either, where is this ruling found?

As for the duellists, since there's no command and ranks to worry about, I guess I'll just make a bunch of 'em and experiment with various sizes.

And finally, I'm aware halflings are good, but they are also silly. I don't want silly units, it's going to be a fairly filthy and dirty army.

T10
22-09-2005, 15:40
How about filthy, dirty halflings?

The kind that would stab you in the eye and sell your mother. There are no happy halflings in Warhammer. And if even if there are, your halflings could simply be their under-priveliged neighbours.

-T10

Punk_in_Drublic
22-09-2005, 16:07
...the "Foul Greg Pickins" kind of halfling.

Anyway, You should incorporate your lovely light cav minis into that list.

Later,

-Punk

ElfGuy
22-09-2005, 18:12
The Mercenary General is weak and without much of a purpose. Go for the Wizard Lord, you won't have to use a scroll caddy that way. Bump your current Wizard up a level, that combined with the Wizard Lord will give you a respectable magic phase.

Give the Paymaster a lance, heavy armour, enchanted shield, and a barded warhorse. Add him to a unit of five Volan's Venators. You will have a mobil Paymaster with a 1+ save and a very frightning cavalry charge.

Your Pegasus Captain is cool, I doubt you'll get much use out of your pistol though.

Two units of 8 Duellists will be far more effective. They can manuver better, threaten more ground, cover both flanks, and they'll be expendable should something unfortunate happen to them.

24 Pikemen seems to be the standard. Thirty seems like a point sink, twenty four should get the job done.

Go for the 5 Voland's Venators over the ten heavy cavalry. Strongly consider fielding two units of 5 uncommanded, possibly unbarded, heavy cavalry to use as flanking forces.

Great weapons are better then flails, dispite the points cost. Either way, 25 is way to many guys to have in a frenzied infantry block. Field two units of 12 in a 6x2 formation without command options. That will help maximize attacks and keep the unit cheap and expendable in case frenzy becomes a liability.

Add the Light Cavalry, 5 without command, give them only spears. Avoid all of the expensive infantry blocks you mentioned.

leeoaks
22-09-2005, 18:28
Btw, have you thought about putting your paymaster on the pegasus? he cant!

and as for the merc general adding nothing, thats rubbish! he adds flavour....i wouldn't ever leave home without my bad boy!
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b101/leeoaks/dow/general.jpg

i'd suggest light cav just basic with no command they are a right pain in the backside!

and what about menghils lot they alway do me well let them beat a few weak units shoot the hell out of warmachines then hide for a shed load of v.p!

i wouldnt bother with the cursed company, they cost too much. or the orks, two units of ten crossbows are far more effective!

i like golfags ogres and the vendetors.... the 6 attcks from golfag at strength 5 and 13 from the ogres leaves most inf units battered! strength 6 knights are also good!

samw
22-09-2005, 20:32
The merc general also adds ld9, pretty darn helpful considering the number of points in that pike block. One failed panic check coud hurt a lot!

Crazy Harborc
22-09-2005, 21:20
Fast cav, with bows (they can have light armour or a shield don't remember which). That'll get them a 5/6 save. 24 inch bows S3 can really annoy an opponent when they are moving fast and far. Heck, advance a single move (8") AND shoot. ;)

Heavy cav with lances can be VERY annoying. With barding they are darn near as good at saving as Empire knights.

You didn't mention any/many of the "special character included" units of DoW. Do check them out. I prefer the Bearmen rather than plain old Mauraders.

Sanjuro
23-09-2005, 23:23
Fast cav can actually march and shoot in the same turn, and remember they have a 360 degrees line of sight for shooting.

A couple units of fast cav are probably a staple for all successful DoW armies. They are very cheap.