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View Full Version : 2000 Points of big fat undead bellies...



UltimateNagash
02-01-2008, 23:34
Right, well, now that I've seen the VC models (and loving them), I've decided to make a Flesh Golems army - when I get the time ;) so yeah, this is my plan of an army, not sure whether it's good or not...
Now, I don't want any Gnoblars, cause I can't see anything that would properly represent them... so it's pure Ogres, maybe making a Flesh Giant at 2500 or 3000 points, what do you think?
Anyway, please rate the list ;) thanks :)

Tyrant 321
Thundermace, Spangleshard, heavy armour, Beastkiller, two Sword-Gnoblars, Luck-Gnoblar

Bruiser 194
Siegebreaker, heavy armour, Wallcrusher, two Sword-Gnoblars, Luck-Gnoblar

Butcher 190
Hellheart, two Tooth-Gnoblars

Butcher 190
Bangstick, Dispel Scroll, two Tooth-Gnoblars

3 Bulls 117
Additional hand weapons, bellower

3 Bulls 105
Bellower

3 Bulls 105
Bellower

3 Ironguts 144
Bellower

3 Ironguts 144
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

1990 points

Leogun_91
03-01-2008, 00:37
Gnoblars as tiny zombies or skeletons that uses tactical retreats.

Ward.
03-01-2008, 02:01
Gnoblars as child like ghouls.

Nice idea though, have you tried the same idea out with a doom bull lead beasts army?

UltimateNagash
03-01-2008, 10:16
Gnoblars as tiny zombies or skeletons that uses tactical retreats.
That doesn't really make sense, background wise...

Gnoblars as child like ghouls.
Still not really convinced...

Nice idea though, have you tried the same idea out with a doom bull lead beasts army?
No, but there's a reason behind this - gonna use some of these models in my VC army as well as DoW :)

I'm looking at the army now - wondering what I should drop to get my Flesh Giant in it...

Malorian
03-01-2008, 14:01
Looks like a neat list, that's for sure. I don't like leadbelchers though... they always seem to hurt themselves more than the enemy. If they didn't have to roll to hit it would be ok, but they just can't seem to do a lot of damage.

Have you thought about taking the scraplauncher and converting it with the new blackcoach? Now that would be cool : )

UltimateNagash
03-01-2008, 14:33
I can't justify the Scrap Launchers shooting ability... so not going to use it...

And since my army using this would be Necrarch based, gonna have the Leadbelchers as either cannon arms, Dragon hands etc :evilgrin:

Kadrium
03-01-2008, 15:05
Well,


Tyrant 321
Thundermace, Spangleshard, heavy armour, Beastkiller, two Sword-Gnoblars, Luck-Gnoblar

The Thundermace sucks. Drop it for a Tenderiser. Have your Tyrant issue challenges and rack up CR through overkill.

The Spangleshard is a terrible item. Terrible. In order for it to "nullify" a wound, you must beat the roll on the die that was cast by your opponent to wound you. That means if your opponent rolls a 6, you cannot nullify the wound with the spangleshard. If your opponent rolls a 5, you must roll a 6. If an opponent rolls a 4 to wound you, must roll a 5 or 6 to nullify.

This means that once the opponent is capable of wounding on a 4+, and actually rolls a 4 the spangleshard is even with the wyrdstone necklace. It takes a strength 5 hit to wound a Tyrant on a 4+. All of this means that your tyrant must be hit by a strength 5 or higher attack, and your opponent must roll a 4 or lower to wound, for the spangleshard to be even or superior to the wyrdstone necklace. Plus, the spangleshard does not "save" wounds, it nullifies them, so you do not benifit from save re-rolls via a luck gnoblar. And no matter what strength the hit is, if your opponent rolls a 6 to wound, you're screwed.

For my points, i'll take the 5+ save from the wyrdstone that I am able to re-roll and works against every strength hit, no matter what my opponent rolls to wound. And the wyrdstone is cheaper.

Ogre Bignames are generally universally overpriced for what they provide. BeastKiller is especially limp in this regard. Kineater and Mawseeker are the only big names I might possibly consider, and even then I would rather save points for more ogres.

Sword Gnoblars are pretty lame. Strength 2 hits? C'mon... They rarely ever wound, and are easy to save when they do.

Tenderiser and Wyrdstone necklace are the best things to equip your Tyrant with. Psych-protecting items like the Laurels are optional at your preference.


Bruiser 194
Siegebreaker, heavy armour, Wallcrusher, two Sword-Gnoblars, Luck-Gnoblar


Siegebreaker is a good weapon for a Bruiser, but Wallcrusher is a terrible waste of points. Unless you play with a lot of defendable obsticles, save these points for elsewhere. Same with the sword gnoblars, again.

That being said, I'd take another butcher over a bruiser at 2k. 1 Tyrant and 3 Butchers is very solid in a 2k game.


Butcher 190
Hellheart, two Tooth-Gnoblars

Butcher 190
Bangstick, Dispel Scroll, two Tooth-Gnoblars

Unload the Hellheart. If you want to shut down a magic phase, just buy dispel scrolls.

Replace it with a skullmantle. Braingobblers with an extra -1 are great.

Tooth gnoblars are next to useless. You always fail to cast magic on a 1 or 2, per the magic rules, regardless of modifiers. Tooth gnoblars cannot make a spell succeed if you roll a 1 or 2, and any other roll is a 3+ which casts the spell. Those are 20 points better spent elsewhere.

I'd pick up a 3rd butcher after dropping the bruiser, and give him another dispel scroll or two.


3 Bulls 117
Additional hand weapons, bellower

3 Bulls 105
Bellower

3 Bulls 105
Bellower

These are excellent units, and well equipped. They make perfect flank chargers and charge baiters. My only concern is that you're heavy on flanking/supporting units and light on hammer units (read: ironguts). You might need to unload one of the bull units to make more room for the ironguts.


3 Ironguts 144
Bellower

3 Ironguts 144
Bellower

I would contend, generally, that Ironguts don't require bellowers. They are already ld8, and generally tend to be near your general to use his 9. Also, you should be charge baiting and setting up combo charges with a supporting unit of bulls on a flank charge to put your ironguts in combats that they will win handily. If you find yourself regularly needing to rally ironguts, you need new tactics, not bellowers.


2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

I'm a fan of leadbelchers. They make wonderful charge bait against things like cavalary and flyers that are much faster than your 12 inches. they can move 6 inches and fire, giving them an 18" strike range - outside the charge range of all but the very fastest units - and when they flank charge, units of 2 have enough US to deny rank bonus and will usually score more wounds than they give up.

that being said, 8 may be a little bit of overkill, especially considering your army is in great need of more ironguts. I'd try to strike an even balance of ironguts-to-flanker units. 3-4 units of ironguts and 3-4 units of bulls/belchers.

Overall, it would benifit you to find the points to field 2 gorgers, and some trappers as well.

I'd cut down on a couple of units of leadbelchers, one unit of bulls, and invest those points in the ironguts, gorgers, and trappers.

UltimateNagash
03-01-2008, 15:24
Whoops - I got confused between the two...
And I read the Spangleshard wrong... Oops...
So if I give the Tenderiser, Wyrdstone Necklace and Jade Lion, and then have only luck-Gnoblar, it would be better?

So, this then:
Butcher with Bangstick and Dispel Scroll
Butcher with Skullmantle and Dispel Scroll
Butcher with Halfling Cookbook and Dispel Scroll

I like having musicians, just feel that extra bit is useful...
So how about 2 Bull units (one with 2 hw), and three Irongut units?

Well, with the background I'm doing, how bout a Slavegiant (Flesh Giant) and Gorger (Varghulf thingy)?

Something like this:

Tyrant 311
Tenderiser, heavy armour, Wyrdstone Necklace, Jade Lion, Luck-Gnoblar

Butcher 180
Bangstick, Dispel Scroll

Butcher 175
Skullmantle, Dispel Scroll

Butcher 180
Halfling Cookbook, Dispel Scroll

3 Bulls 117
Additional hand weapons, bellower

3 Bulls 105
Bellower

3 Ironguts 144
Bellower

3 Ironguts 144
Bellower

3 Ironguts 144
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

Slavegiant 175

Gorger 75

1990 points

Cheers for the help :)
There's no Gnoblars cause I can't justify them...

Kadrium
03-01-2008, 15:57
List looks much more solid now.

My only other general warnings from a strictly gameplay standpoint are the slavegiant, the single gorger, and the lack of standards on your ironguts.

The slavegiant is generally a very weak unit. It's not stubborn, so unless supported very well in close combat, it will lose horribly to static CR and run away, or get shot to death. I understand you're including it for fluff purposes. Thats fine and if you want to have it, take it. I wouldn't take one until a 2250+ list at best, probably not til 2500 or 3k.

One gorger isn't as useful as 2. One gorger may not show up until turn 5. With 2 gorgers, you're almost sure to get one out on turn 2, and if both happen to show up, they can really wreak havoc. I would generally suggest taking 2 gorgers or none. This will depend on if you choose to retain the slavegiant.

Standards are good to have in irongut units. In any given combat, you can benifit from 1 standard, and 1 musician. If you combo charge properly with your current list, you'll be setting up a lot of irongut+bull/belcher charges. Your bulls/belchers have the bellowers, and your ironguts can carry the standards. Then you benifit from both for CR.

Finally, Standards give you the opportunity to carry look-out gnoblars. I'd highly recommend one, at least for your general, if not for some of your butchers as well. It really sucks having your Tyrant take a cannonball to the pie-hole on turn one because you have no look-out gnoblars to protect him.

UltimateNagash
03-01-2008, 17:21
Well, I can always just drop the Giant - not too keen on any of the models anyway...

So I changed it round a little bit - one Bull unit gets light armour as I said 10 spare points ;)

Tyrant 311
Tenderiser, heavy armour, Wyrdstone Necklace, Jade Lion, Luck-Gnoblar

Butcher 180
Bangstick, Dispel Scroll

Butcher 175
Skullmantle, Dispel Scroll

Butcher 180
Halfling Cookbook, Dispel Scroll

3 Bulls 117
Additional hand weapons, bellower

3 Bulls 139
Light armour, bellower, standard bearer, Lookout-Gnoblar

3 Ironguts 169
Bellower, standard bearer, Lookout-Gnoblar

3 Ironguts 169
Bellower, standard bearer, Lookout-Gnoblar

3 Ironguts 169
Bellower, standard bearer, Lookout-Gnoblar

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

Gorger 75

Gorger 75

1999 points
Better?

Malorian
03-01-2008, 17:48
One character can't have two arcane magic items.

UltimateNagash
03-01-2008, 17:59
No, but a Dispel Scroll doesn't count as an Arcane Item for that :p

Malorian
03-01-2008, 18:38
I thought it did, and when I gave a skink priest a diadem of power and dispel scroll I was told it was illegal.

Kadrium
03-01-2008, 18:40
Dispel scrolls don't count against the arcane item limitation.

And yes, that list looks very solid now, though I generally leave the standard/lookout off the bulls. Bulls in combat by themselves usually lose to static CR, so carrying a standard is giving away VPs. Bulls in combat on a supporting flank charge with a unit of ironguts who have a standard contribute nothing by carrying a standard of their own.

UltimateNagash
03-01-2008, 19:44
And yes, that list looks very solid now, though I generally leave the standard/lookout off the bulls. Bulls in combat by themselves usually lose to static CR, so carrying a standard is giving away VPs. Bulls in combat on a supporting flank charge with a unit of ironguts who have a standard contribute nothing by carrying a standard of their own.
Should I give both units 2ccws and light armour instead of 1 getting a standard then?

Kadrium
03-01-2008, 20:18
Just light armor by itself is a waste of points. Bulls are flankers, and baiters. Spend no more points on them than you would on fast cavalry, as that is basically the roll they fill in an Ogre army. By themselves, they suck at winning combats. On a supporting flank charge, they make winning combat almost automatic for your ironguts.

Just give them bellowers, and extra hand weapons if you can spare the points. Otherwise, just try to buy more bulls or more ironguts. Ogres are a somewhat unique army, in that a list of nothing but heroes and core choices can win games. Tyrant, 3 butchers, and a heap of 3xBulls and 3xIronguts is actually a strong list. The inclusion of special and rare units - perhaps gorgers aside - honestly tends to just weaken your army more than strengthen it.

When it comes to Ogres, if you're putting something in your list that isn't GUTmagic or IronGUTS, you need to have a damn fine reason to justify your lack of GUTS. Gut Magic and Ironguts win games.

Your math is off somewhere, cause..


3 Bulls 117
Additional hand weapons, bellower

does not cost 117 points. Just the 3 bulls are 115.

UltimateNagash
04-01-2008, 00:10
Yep, I've made a mistake - but 3 Bulls is 105, so with bellower is 115...

So it should be this then?

Tyrant 311
Tenderiser, heavy armour, Wyrdstone Necklace, Jade Lion, Luck-Gnoblar

Butcher 180
Bangstick, Dispel Scroll

Butcher 175
Skullmantle, Dispel Scroll

Butcher 180
Halfling Cookbook, Dispel Scroll

3 Bulls 127
Additional hand weapons, bellower

3 Bulls 127
Additional hand weapons, bellower

3 Ironguts 169
Bellower, standard bearer, Lookout-Gnoblar

3 Ironguts 169
Bellower, standard bearer, Lookout-Gnoblar

3 Ironguts 169
Bellower, standard bearer, Lookout-Gnoblar

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

2 Leadbelchers 120
Bellower

Gorger 75

Gorger 75

1997 points
I'm going to use the Leadbelchers (one with a Dragon head, one with the flamer arm from Boneripper, one with Treeman limb [so can Strangleroot] and one with Dwarf cannon stuck on).
The Gorgers will be blood crazed Vargulf thingies, and the rest is obvious ;)

Also, just out of furiosity, how should I use the Butchers? What spells should each one normally go for etc?

Kadrium
04-01-2008, 03:16
List looks good.

Join your butchers to some of your ironguts, and buff them up with trollguts or toothcracker, whatever is appropriate for the situation. Toss braingobblers and bonecrunchers at enemy units. Heal with bloodgruel. Avoid bullgorger, unless your ironguts happen to be charging a unit of TK light chariots or something.