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Luthien
03-01-2008, 12:34
What i mean is those chapters who would (however briefly) ally with xenos in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of way. So quite simply which chapters do you think most tolerant and why?
Also could someone tell me how tolerant the BA are as they're my chapter and i need an excuse to ally them to my eldar for apocalypse :D

The Anarchist
03-01-2008, 15:05
well using the 13th Black Crusade as an examle almsot any of these forces allied with Eldar, and in a very round about way some might say the Necrons as well. however few forces, especialy the rather Xenophobic average Space Marine would ally with Xenos except in the msot dire circumstances. it does ahppen though, and there are a fair few examples of it, so you can fluff it don't worry.

as for the BA they are one of the more rational chapters, so whilst they might not like it or prusue the idea of an allinace, they would make one when circumstances required it. on the other hand it is equaly likley that following the defeat of their mutual enemies the BA would turn on the eldar.

if any fluff lawyer would like to correct me on this however please do so, this is jsut from my own views and reading of the fluff.

Chaos Undecided
03-01-2008, 15:22
I dont think Fluff lawyering is really neccesary when it comes to Apocalypse games its more about fun than serious gaming and most chapters could arguably be forced into an alliance of neccesity in dire times (or at least a delayed we wont kill you right this moment agreement) when faced with a more pressing opponent.

looking at the chapters from a fluff point of view I think the least likely to agree to any sort of cooperation with Xenos would be Imperial Fists (the legion that brought you the Black Templars where Tolerance is something that happens to other people) and Dark Angels who barely tolerate outside assistance from Imperial Allies. But like I said Apocalypse if for fun so it doesnt matter that much to me at least.

imperial_scholar
03-01-2008, 16:06
yea, I can agree.. there is no 'more tolerant' chapter.... only 'not tolerant'.

FruitSmack!
03-01-2008, 16:22
Very few would probably enter an alliance willingly for non-serious situations.

Most would probably grudgingly do it under severe situations where there would be a mutual threat to both sides (I'd imaging your Blood Angels would fall here). Though they still are Space Marines, even the nicest ones probably would be really, really apprehensive about joining forces with xenos. They'd also break it off as soon as possible.

The few left over would be intolerant of aliens and either refuse outright, or treat them like enemies. In a serious situation, I doubt they'd be dumb enough to openly attack them while dealing with a mutual threat, instead just letting them know "we hate you so stay away".

I doubt you'd get many that would ally with them just to try to crush them after the fact. Not because Space Marines are nice, but because those that will ally are probably doing it for honest support (even if they are suspicious of each other) and those that hate the xenos wouldn't ally in the first place.

aaron

Vesica
03-01-2008, 16:48
The only reason i would ally wiht xenos is when i strap them to my tanks to as 'Extra armour' or as a xeno shield for my troops, but some others might be a bit more tolerant of the lesser species than me.

Purge the Xeno

Deus Mechanicus
03-01-2008, 17:52
The Blood Ravens allied with the eldar on more than one occasion if memory serves, so the precedent is most certainly there.

Khaine's Messenger
03-01-2008, 18:16
What i mean is those chapters who would (however briefly) ally with xenos in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of way.

Most chapters' "tolerances" end at treating the subjects of the Imperium as dignified human beings worthy of not being talked to like children and herded along like mindless cattle. Dealing civilly with the xenos is almost universally a plot contrivance, and one arrived at after much bluster--it was as BC13 was drawing to a close that Creed and Eldrad shook hands. But such plot contrivances are a dime a dozen in 40k, so as you please....

Anyway, allying with Eldar isn't exceptionally hard. Back "in the day" it was more common than you might expect, since the Eldar share quite a few enemies with Mankind and would like to see their buffer zones maintained...and sometimes they would even try to talk Imperials into letting them do a dance over a webway gate so they could keep the Dark Eldar away. If you want to get into the story-telling elements of Apocalypse, you don't even have to assume they're on the same side even though the game abstraction assumes they are. Flank March the entire Eldar segment of your force and have your Marines show up at the objective confused as hell about where half the enemy garrison went. I'm sure you can come up with better.

Super Ninja
03-01-2008, 20:04
Well, i'd say that the Imperial Fists, Blood Ravens, and Salamanders are the 3 least intolerent chapters. I heard from a reliable source that the Imp. Fists negotiated with the Tau before the Damocles gulf crusade to keep them out of imperial space, but i could just be going insane. And, as said previously, it depends on the situation and what your imagination can come up with.

P.S. Creed and Eldrad shook hands?! When did this happen?!:wtf:

Chaos Undecided
03-01-2008, 20:13
You may be thinking of a short fluff story from the old Tau book in which are Imperial Fist captain and I think an Inquisitor meet a Tau envoy regarding the Tau's right to the Damocles sector cant recall the exact words but the Captains sentiment was essentially "over your dead body" pretty standard for a Marine in that situation I'd have thought. Not sure about saying the Salamanders are one of the most intolerent they certainly are the most respectful towards the rest of humanity at least.

MF3000
03-01-2008, 20:24
So the question then should be, not, 'who is most tolerant'; rather, 'who is most rational enough to forge a xenos-human alliance'.

sj

Green-is-best
03-01-2008, 20:45
So the question then should be, not, 'who is most tolerant'; rather, 'who is most rational enough to forge a xenos-human alliance'.

sj

I doubt said alliance would amount to much more than agreeing to not shoot at each other until they are finished killing who ever their mutual enemy is. If that's the case, then I'd say most Chapters are that rational.

Chaplain Dionitas
03-01-2008, 20:51
Well there was the book Warrior Coven about a Deathwatch Kill Team that has to ally with Eldar. Hilarity and wackiness ensued.

Sister_Sin
03-01-2008, 21:44
The Salamanders hate the Eldar. Nocturne was continuously raided by Eldar Pirates before Vulkan led the townsfolk in repelling their attack...with forge hammers.

Salamanders don't tend to distinguish between Craftworld, Corsair, or Dark Eldar. In their book they are all untrustworthy.

That being said, in a short story written by Gav the Salamanders did talk to some Eldar for a short period before the Dark Kin popped through the warp portal and wasted everyone. As I recall Xavier was with that group.

Salamanders treat humankind with far more consideration and reverence than other Chapters do, but not xenos types.

In my opinion.

Sister Sin

WallyTWest
04-01-2008, 01:22
Dark Angels are at the bottom of your list. (Hates everything)

NerdyOgre254
04-01-2008, 01:42
Tolerant is kind of a vague word.
If, by 'Tolerant' you mean that they don't immediately take a swing at any Xenos that come in reach, then in the Tau Empire Codex it shows a Space Marine and an inquistor (i think) talking to a Tau envoy. This space marine is either a member of the Imperial Fists or the Crimson Fists Chapter (The picture was in black and white so i can't tell).

Hellebore
04-01-2008, 01:49
You don't need to be tolerant to have a force of eldar materialise on your flank and start killing your foes.

You should look at it from the other end - when would eldar show up for no reason and fight against a common foe with space marines?

As often as plot demands.

The only question is how long can the marines control their urge to fight a war on two different fronts?

Hellebore

ThorOdensson
04-01-2008, 02:23
The only question is how long can the marines control their urge to fight a war on two different fronts?

Hellebore

In the case of Black Templars that control would be gone the nano-second they spot the other "enemy" hell they'd probably shoot at imperial forces that werent shooting at both xeno's

Rövhalt
04-01-2008, 08:51
In the case of Black Templars that control would be gone the nano-second they spot the other "enemy" hell they'd probably shoot at imperial forces that werent shooting at both xeno's

As it should be. Anyone tolerating the alien to live is a heretic and should be shot.

Jellicoe
04-01-2008, 09:26
least tolerant are surely marines malevolent and/or fleshtearers. Marines malevolent are bearly tolerant of normal humans never mind xenos and fleshtearers too crazed

Baaltharus
04-01-2008, 10:16
If Space Marines agreed to fight alongside Eldar its not very likely that they'd turn upon them as soon as a mutual enemy was defeated. Space Marines are usually very concerned with honouring, well...honour. Betraying an allie is massively taboo for most chapters even if they are xenos. In most cases after mutual cooperation had ended its likely an envoy would be sent foward an the Eldar told to remove themselves within a designated time before their presence was considered hostile.

Also, if Eldar turned up and started fighting against a Chaos horde for instance following the fighting its unlikely that the Marines would immediately turn on them, the Emperors finest aren't big on dishonourable things, even with xenos, with a few exceptions (Dark Angels *cough*).

Grindgodgrind
04-01-2008, 11:40
I don't see too much of a problem..

But remember, "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy".

DarthSte
04-01-2008, 11:45
Dark Angels are at the bottom of your list. (Hates everything)

Ah, but they may join forces with The Eldar, if it meant the capture of some fallen, without any Imperial intervention...

Epicenter
04-01-2008, 12:22
It all depends.

If you go by the artwork from RT-era to now, Eldar and Ultramarines ally so much that their mutual "hatred" is more like the relationship between you and your psycho ex-girlfriend (insert boyfriend and he where appropo for distaff readers) where if she's not trying to claw your eyes out, she's shaving your cat, which doesn't include all the times she's tried to get a restraining order from the cops for your own house. And if you two aren't doing any of those ... you're having wild sex.


P.S. Creed and Eldrad shook hands?! When did this happen?!:wtf:

Seconded:

When did this happen?!:wtf:

Super Ninja
04-01-2008, 18:35
Well, if we are now talking about the least tolerant chapters, i'd say Red Scorpions, DA, Black Templars and any made up chapters modeled on the chapters previously mentioned.

Yeah... still no response on that Creed Eldrad thing...

Baltar
04-01-2008, 18:53
Most tolerant are the Death Watch. They work with the alien when necessary...on a much more regular basis than other Chapters.

Kintarent
05-01-2008, 00:24
As folks have said in this thread, there is only a certain level of "Tolerance" that can be achieved, even when thinking optimistically.

However I do remember the =I= yelling at the Blood Ravens for Fraternization with the Eldar, so take that as you will.

Malevon
05-01-2008, 01:14
Most tolerant are the Death Watch. They work with the alien when necessary...on a much more regular basis than other Chapters.

Kind of ironic considering they are the so-called "Alien-hunters."

But on this subject, I think most Imperials would ally with Eldar against Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, or Dark Eldar. Puritan Inquisitors and Black Templars are an exception. And I don't think they would turn on them as soon as the foe was defeated; Eldar are farily aloof, and would probably return to the webway as soon as the threat was put down, and I can't see most Imperials having a problem with this.

MF3000
05-01-2008, 02:27
Okay this is slightly off topic, but I thought I might offer it anyway.

I'm planning on making my IG conscript squad out of Grots. Not the crappy grots, but the Grot Rebel Army!! (they're crap too, but look fancier lol).

In any case, fluff wise, the IG commanders have decided to 'help out' the Grots in their 'liberation campaign'. Grots are so desperate they actually believe that this will guarantee their freedom. The Inquisition sanctioned this alliance because the Ordos Xenos want to take a look at Grot behaviour when separated from their Ork brothers for long periods of time. In other words, after the campaign finishes, the grots will be detained, declawed, and tooth removed, and pretty much stuffed into a laboratory where they'll be monitored by bunch of Ad Mech and Ordos Xenos crew.

That's just my view on the few instances when the unlikely factions in the universe will ally up... I was going to include some Ork Yoofs along the GRA... but I don't think that would've been as convincing as bunch of desperate Grots being double crossed by the Imperium.

sj

Hellebore
05-01-2008, 03:12
Penny Arcade sums it up well:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/05


Hellebore

Pooky
05-01-2008, 03:50
I would initially say that all SMs are intollerant of everything except other SMs (with limitations eg, DA vs SW), the IG and the Imperium.

But the thing is I think that every SM chapter has his own flavor of intollerance. For example, the BTs hate psychers, so they will never ally with the Eldar. The DAs hate anything that is not human, so they won't ally with IG army with Ogrns or Ratlings. And finally, the Ultras will never ally with the bugs (if somehow you actually could ally with the bugs).

Conversely, the Ultras may speak with the Eldar Farseer in a parlay, where as a BT would just go insane and call down an orbital bombardment on that location if they were asked to parlay with the Eldar.

Supremearchmarshal
05-01-2008, 12:21
(if somehow you actually could ally with the bugs).

There is a way: Zoats/Colossans could trick some Imperials into allying with them, though not Space Marines. Also Genestealers could maybe infect them.

Back in the "Space Marine" novel a Zoat says the Lamenters willingly submitted to the Tyranids, but it was obviously lying. It did come close to convincing the Imperial Fists to "ally" with the Tyranids, and the Zoat's speech was almost hypnotic - probably enhanced by the Hive Mind since they were on board a Tyranid Hiveship.


More on topic, in 2nd edition the Imperium was definitely the "good guys", the Eldar (and Squats until they began phasing them out) tended to be lumped with them, while Chaos, Orks and Tyranids were "bad guys". In 3rd edition they started to move Eldar away from the pointy-eared human image and made them more alien and indifferent. Still, they're the only major alien race that can be reasoned with.

Zelnik
08-01-2008, 15:04
In the end, i recommend making your own chapter, though i am sure there are some shadowy successor chapters that are so far removed from their origins that they work with the more reasonable xenos.

Taipan
08-01-2008, 15:18
Not going to happen. Space Marines may differ on 'divinity of Emperor' or 'I'm an Inquisitor, do what I say', but hating xenos is something drilled into them from induction. If you want to do diplomacy (ie Tau), don't even ask the Astartes to come.

Of course, under certain circumstances, a Chapter may end up aiding an alien force without realising it (Eldar etc). But it would take some serious and impending doom to get SM to shoot a common enemy first rather than just purging everyone non-human (which is standard Astartes doctrine, its not just BT or Ultras).

Zelnik
09-01-2008, 01:06
Quit it with the "space marinez hatez xenoz" knee jerk reaction. Space marines are human despite genetic modification, and are capable of rational thought. They can certainly break indoctrination just like we all can, all it takes is experience and effort.

also, GW gives you the rules to make your own chapters, with your own damed fluff. the more people say the statement above, the more likely people will make chapters that do things like negotiating, allying, or even defecting to other causes not chaos JUST TO ANNOY people who are rabid xenophobes.