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View Full Version : Why do marines get worse when they get power armor?



nova40k
05-01-2008, 06:00
I understand the game mechanics behind it all but the basis isnt there.

Scouts have "stealth training" but all their ninjastic abilities disappear when theygo into power armor. Is their a fluff reason for that or do we have a game balance thing. On that same note why is it that only scouts can have sniper rifles? When some one is good from the get go with it you let him keep the gun or get him a bigger better version. Vet squads should get sniper rifles or atleast have access to them since they can infiltrate. It makes sense to me can someone make it unsense?

Gorbad Ironclaw
05-01-2008, 06:19
It doesn't fit the combat doctrine they work under.

Marines are primarely shock troops. A lot of there succes depends on surprise, mobility and brutality to shock the enemy and make him unable to react proper before the marines can secure there objective.

Initiates(scouts) do the recon jobs because they are not as hard and well trained as a full marine, so might not be able to stand in the battle line in the same way, hence they start out with some 'light' missions(or that's the theory at least).

So no other marine gets sniper rifles because there isn't a need for them to have it. It doesn't fit the combat doctrine they are supposed to work under.

oatish
05-01-2008, 06:26
A reason why Marines start their recruits in the Scouts is that it promotes self reliance. I mean, the Space Marines have the best resources available but on a small scale. Only 1,000 soldiers for any armed force is low and as such the "behind enemy lines"/isolated combat conditions serve to emphasize the Space Marines need to be self sufficient.

Also, Marines who excelled with sniper rifles would most likely find themselves in the role of a Devestator upon leaving the 10th company. Sniper rifles are cool but a Lascannon suits the combat doctrine of the Astartes much more. And it can blow up tanks , too.

Grazzy
05-01-2008, 11:07
Fluffwise marines are actually arrogant, especially chapters like the imperial fists or even ultramarines. They want to attack the enemy in full sight and scare him to death, not sneak around shooting poison darts at people.

Gensuke626
05-01-2008, 11:16
UNless they're blood ravens...

Kulgur
05-01-2008, 12:05
I doubt big clunky power armour is conductive towards stealth

The_Outsider
05-01-2008, 12:51
I doubt big clunky power armour is conductive towards stealth

"Oh look, a bush! Hmmm, I don't remember that bush having a snake on its shoulder pad, or being navy blue for that matter, or having horns. Oh well, such is the way of things......"

Fixer
05-01-2008, 13:20
Powered armor as well as being brightly coloured and covered with big bold Icons is also pretty loud.

The armor itself is heavy. You have ceramite plates clanking against each other and power armor has been said to generally groan and creak when moving (such as when Yarrick saw the Salamanders advance into the Ork rok during the opening battle of Armageddon 3)

You'd need some armor modifications or some exceptional skills to infiltrate and get close to the enemy. Much more than you would need with silent and camoflaged scout armor.

Latro_
05-01-2008, 13:26
remember when autocannons were removed from scouts because 'why should they train on a weapon they'll never use' excuse.

funny they use sniper rifles still,
more like 'we didnt do an autocannon model and we wont bother, but aith there are sniper models... '

Lord Raneus
05-01-2008, 14:05
I understand the game mechanics behind it all but the basis isnt there.

Scouts have "stealth training" but all their ninjastic abilities disappear when theygo into power armor. Is their a fluff reason for that or do we have a game balance thing. On that same note why is it that only scouts can have sniper rifles? When some one is good from the get go with it you let him keep the gun or get him a bigger better version. Vet squads should get sniper rifles or atleast have access to them since they can infiltrate. It makes sense to me can someone make it unsense?

Power armor is big, clunky, and noisy- in short, not very suited to infiltration work. The SMs in the novels are still pretty ninjatastic, they just cannot infiltrate an enemy base very well due to their power armor.

And as said, it goes against the grain for many chapters to sneak around instead of putting their heraldry proudly in full view.

superknijn
05-01-2008, 14:15
Marines do not operate according to logical thought. That's the whole point of the brain-washing they all undergo, so they know no fear, or anything else, but their longing to serve the Emperor and smite his foes. Hiding apparently is no part of that.

ancient_conflict
05-01-2008, 15:35
Fluffwise marines are actually arrogant, especially chapters like the imperial fists or even ultramarines. They want to attack the enemy in full sight and scare him to death, not sneak around shooting poison darts at people.

well in the Ultramarines omnibus the short story at the begining has Uriel Ventris sneaking up on a couple of pill boxes and taking them more or less single handedly

MrBigMr
05-01-2008, 16:15
In Daemon World a Chaos marine had a sniper bolter.

But it's about use of things. An 8 foot walking hulk in bright red armor doesn't hide well enough to be able to snipe. You need time to aim and all that. Besides, just because you've been trained in something, doesn't mean you'll ever see the weapon in your life. I was trained in all sorts of weapons in the army, but apart from my rifle, all I got was a medical kit. Now all I need is True Grit and I could bust some heads in CC.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
05-01-2008, 16:16
Fluffwise marines are actually arrogant, especially chapters like the imperial fists or even ultramarines. They want to attack the enemy in full sight and scare him to death, not sneak around shooting poison darts at people.

That, and it;s the psychology of the whole thing.

You see these 8' tall nutcases wading through firepower towards you, sometimes stumbling, rarely falling. You empty clip after clip, and still they come. With each retort of their guns, a friend or ally explodes, thrown unceremoniously to the four winds. And you know, deep down, your know, they are death, and they are here to claim you......

Mr_Rose
05-01-2008, 16:34
That, and it;s the psychology of the whole thing.

You see these 8' tall nutcases wading through firepower towards you, sometimes stumbling, rarely falling. You empty clip after clip, and still they come. With each retort of their guns, a friend or ally explodes, thrown unceremoniously to the four winds. And you know, deep down, your know, they are death, and they are here to claim you......
You don't even have to have actual Marines being shot at to get this effect; check out some of the videos of guys who make their own power armour out of papier maché and scrap then observe the faces of the onlookers as the guys (ordinary sized nerds) advance on them...
The suits aren't even that good, at best they would make a 6'4" guy up to about 7' and they don't have the perfection of form a "real" suit would but they are impressive. You and I would either laugh or otherwise be amused by the things, but you gotta remember that no-one in the real world has ever heard of us, or even the concept of "powered armour."

t-tauri
05-01-2008, 16:49
Ever seen medieval/Viking re-enactors charge? Big men in big armour with big weapons can be frightening.

Part of the psychology effect of the "no-camo" chapters like the Blood Angels comes from the appearance of invulnerability coupled with the rejection of cover. They don't hide. They don't cower. They just keep on coming. These chapters use the fear this approach engenders to gain advantage over their opponents.

Infiltration is still available to marines in power armour with the right trait. Some chapters still use camo and stealth to maximise their effectiveness. They still have the scout skills. The power armour is all but silent in it's operation. Why they lose access to sniper rifles unless they're in the Space Wolves is another question entirely.

Snorphel
05-01-2008, 16:50
Actually, wolf scouts are experienced marines - that happen to be less pack-minded individuals than the other space wolves. They obviously operate in scout armour, as power armour would be to restrictive.

For the rest (and marines of other chapters) fighting as scouts in scout armour is seen as "less honourable".

So it's not a step back - it's a step up.

Cheers

Adra
05-01-2008, 16:53
Just to spin this another way...why would you put extra armour on a trooper using a sniper rifle? They are far away, hidden and should be able to avoid damage so why waste power armour on that kind of trooper. ok the stealth thing is fine but also its nessecity. Dont waste power armour on long range guys, keep it for the guys who will get the most use.

G.

Snorphel
05-01-2008, 16:59
Infiltration is still available to marines in power armour with the right trait. Some chapters still use camo and stealth to maximise their effectiveness. They still have the scout skills. The power armour is all but silent in it's operation. Why they lose access to sniper rifles unless they're in the Space Wolves is another question entirely.

Maybe power armour does not allow the use of delicate needle sniper rifles. The gauntlets might be too crude to load the darts, and adjust the scope.
Apart from that taking a sniper rifle into h-t-h combat would be the end of it.

The_Outsider
05-01-2008, 16:59
Just to spin this another way...why would you put extra armour on a trooper using a sniper rifle? They are far away, hidden and should be able to avoid damage so why waste power armour on that kind of trooper. ok the stealth thing is fine but also its nessecity. Dont waste power armour on long range guys, keep it for the guys who will get the most use.

G.

Can I have some 4+ save devastators?

Adra
05-01-2008, 17:07
Can I have some 4+ save devastators?

Gah!!! I wish. That should be an option...i would take their armour off them and stick it on dreads :P

Brother Siccarius
05-01-2008, 17:42
I can't exactly see a SM in full power armor being able to aim with a sniper rifle very well either. Only enhanced optics on the guns of the deathwatch allows them to use their weapons as sniper rifles after all.

Rövhalt
05-01-2008, 20:44
If you base your ideas from fluff, specifically from the wolves novels or soul drinkers, then power armour doesn't actually make any big armour noise. It's silent except for a slight whine from the servo motors if put under stress.

Hellebore
05-01-2008, 21:54
It emits a craptin of heat though - all those vents on the backpack are there to stop the mini fusion reactor in the armour from overheating the marine inside.

I think the scouts are there to give marines all round training so that when they join one of the battle companies they aren't just trained in 'bolter drill' or 'chainsword mandness' but a broad spectrum of abilities.

I'm sure there are times when tactical marines need to act covertly - a bit hard if you've never learned how...

Hellebore

heretics bane
06-01-2008, 12:53
In Daemon World a Chaos marine had a sniper bolter..

His massivly oversized shoulder pads would probably make it difficult to bring the sniper lense up to his face, so he could probebly have to fire from the hip or fire it at arms length.

Londinium
06-01-2008, 13:20
More than likely it's just yet another case of the rules of the TT game not meshing with the background, I could easily see the Raven Guard using sniper rifles even beyond their initiate training, it fits their combat doctrine completely, likewise I could see Ultras using them (jack of all trades). Just because it doesn't fit in with the whole Angels of Death vibe, doesn't mean it's not practised.

The Codex Astartes is said to contain tactics for every possibility, I'm sure it extensively deals with the use of sniper rifles and small marine squads peforming hits rather than just smashing everything up, like I said, Raven Guard.

BAMatrix
06-01-2008, 13:30
Marines with power armor can have infiltrate if you're running a DIY chapter. I'm pretty sure there's a divergent doctrine called "See but Don't Be Seen". So if you really want your big bad marines to infiltrate, you can.

MrBigMr
06-01-2008, 14:29
His massivly oversized shoulder pads would probably make it difficult to bring the sniper lense up to his face, so he could probebly have to fire from the hip or fire it at arms length.
Well, the marine sprues come with scopes, so if they couldn't aim them even somehow, I don't see why they would come with such things. And I believe I've seen few pics of marines firing scoped bolters. They just hold them in front of their faces. Not all scoped need to be looked through at point blank range.

But I don't remember if the sniper bolter had a scope. It was said to be a custom conversion that fired special bolts. You don't always need a scope to snipe. One of the best snipers in the world, Simo Häyhä, used only a standard issue bolt action rifle, refusing to use any special things even if given the opportunity.

de Selby
08-01-2008, 20:52
Although the existing fluff states that (excepting SW) marine recruits start in the scouts and move up to power armour when they become full battle brothers, there's no statline difference except for the armour itself.

So if you want a homebrew chapter whose combat doctrine allows the battle brothers to sometimes go to war in lighter armour and with sniper rifles, the rules already represent this perfectly.

hybridreality
08-01-2008, 21:22
I think in an actual army of Space marines, they wouldn't use new recruits with sniper rifles if they had no shooting skill.

So maybe the scouts aren't actually quite as bad as new rectruits, but a little ahead of it.

Otherwise, why use a sniper rifle if you can carry a lascannon?