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Brother Handro
05-01-2008, 23:35
Hey all, just something random that occured to me t'other day...

As the Ultramarines are the ultimate adherents to the holy Codex written by their Primarch, does it not seem a bit strange that they have control over a huge army of PDF and auxilia throughout their sovereign systems, when one of the core ideas behind the Codex was the breaking down of the Legions and the reformation of the Imperial Army, so that Marines no longer controlled their own private Army and Navy units?

No one questions their loyalty, and the practicality of needing something to defend a huge sector of space is obviously important, etc, etc, but it seems to go against the theory, and I thought the Ultramarines were sticklers for doing things by the Book.

It may have come up before but it just seemed a bit strange to me.:confused:

cpl_hicks
06-01-2008, 00:25
Well that is i think the whole point of the loyalist primarch they all seem to be good emporer fearing chaos killing heros, but scratch the surface and they all have faults.

The Ultras also use chaos artifacts, the gautlets of ultimar where taken from a chaos chappion.

The_Outsider
06-01-2008, 00:52
The Ultras also use chaos artifacts, the gautlets of ultimar where taken from a chaos chappion.

However - IIRC - they were taken pre heresy, long before the codex was written.

Norminator
06-01-2008, 01:10
And were they not originally taken from the a human champion by the chaos one (pre heresy), and then taken back by the Ultramarines?

Jon_Irenicus
06-01-2008, 01:10
Besides, most planets in the Ultramar realm are head and shoulders above nearly any other planet throughout the Imperium, and the Ultramarines aren't big enough to hold all of it, so they have to use PDF. I can see why, every other non-Astartes planet has a PDF (though it's efficiency varies a lot), in this case since they can actually hold it together they might as well keep doing things their way.

I think that even the Administratum wouldn't dare rise against Ultramar. It's controlled by one of the oldest chapters, Guilliman actually saved them a lot of trouble in the years following the Emperor's entombment within the Golden Throne.

I don't think it's hypocritical, they're protecting the population and their lifestyle. Dark Angels only have a star-faring rock, Space Wolves hold a single planet. The Ultramarines' Chapter has a lot more because it can control a lot more in the first place.

The_Outsider
06-01-2008, 01:14
As far as chapters go - the Ultramarines are basicaly untouchable.

The other "legion" chapters are also basically untouchable but they still get some inquisitors casting funny glances in their direction.

But for those in the know the Ultramarines basically have a foothold in every part of imperial society. They account for 3/5ths of geneseed, their primarch made the imperium what it is, their empire basically held back a hive fleet etc etc.

Also the Ultramarines represent the biggest internal threat - they above all other chapters would have the easiest time building a legion if they wish.

The Warmaster
06-01-2008, 07:51
Yeah, no one **** off the Ultramarines, unless you want to get owned... owned with a capital "P".

The issue of the Ultramarines retaining all of those troops and planets has always seemed suspicious to me, especially since their Primarch wrote the very same book that was meant to stop Space Marines from doing exactly that. I have a feeling that the only reason they aren't chastised for this is because they hold so much influence over the entirety of the Imperium, mainly due to the fact that Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes. And, as mentioned before, the Ultramarines would also have an easy time defending themselves if Ultramar was attacked, and would most likely be able to build themselves up to at least rival the Black Templars in size (approx. 6,000 marines) if they felt it was necessary. I wouldn't put such a thing past them, given a previous example of their disregard for the book that they supposedly follow to the letter (the example being Tyrannic War Veterans). I mean, they'd blow their tops at the mere mention of another Chapter making such a necessary innovation (as they have done before), but they would turn a deaf ear and/or make excuses if anyone complained about them doing such a thing themselves. And, plus, I don't see other Chapter Command Squads having Champions with honour blades, or having Honour Guards existing throughout the Companies.

Overall, my problem with the Ultramarines is not their overuse in GW material (although that does bug me sometimes, like the rest of us), but their downright hypocritical nature. I'm just waiting for the reformation of the Ultramarines Legion, and the open declaration of Chaos worship.

- N.

Wikhed
06-01-2008, 09:22
Overall, my problem with the Ultramarines is not their overuse in GW material (although that does bug me sometimes, like the rest of us), but their downright hypocritical nature. I'm just waiting for the reformation of the Ultramarines Legion, and the open declaration of Chaos worship.

Well they're one step away from Chaos worship since they have Ultramarine gift shops aka GW stores already in place.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-01-2008, 09:33
I'm just waiting for the reformation of the Ultramarines Legion, and the open declaration of Chaos worship.

- N.



Why? I mean, why would they declare for Chaos? They do not have any connections to any of the Chaos gods, nor do they have any sympathy for any of the fallen legions. Declaring for Chaos is the last thing they would do as far as I can see. They are proud of the Empire there Primach build, and I'm sure they are proud to be humanities prime defender(to there mind). Depending on how things go with the Imperium, I could see them secede from that, like they and virtually all other space marines did during the Reign of Blood, but that's completely different from turning to Chaos.

The Warmaster
06-01-2008, 09:39
Why? I mean, why would they declare for Chaos? They do not have any connections to any of the Chaos gods, nor do they have any sympathy for any of the fallen legions. Declaring for Chaos is the last thing they would do as far as I can see. They are proud of the Empire there Primach build, and I'm sure they are proud to be humanities prime defender(to there mind). Depending on how things go with the Imperium, I could see them secede from that, like they and virtually all other space marines did during the Reign of Blood, but that's completely different from turning to Chaos.

I was, you know, kidding, right there.

But, still. Such signs of hypocrisy could be foreshadowing darker things that are yet to come.

- N.

khorne666
06-01-2008, 10:19
I don't think that their sheer hypocrisy is a sign of things to come, in my eyes it is a sign that they are the imperium's greatest defenders. Hypocrisy is the imperium's second biggest trait, after extreme facism. For example, the majority of the time a lowly guardsman is more focused on maintaining the emporer's mighty legacy than the highest inquisitor, one of the men or women meant to be the ultimate leaders of mortal men but normally serves only as a self involved individual who acts purely on their own ambition and would probably shoot the emporer incarnate to preserve their own power.


Yeah, I have a think about inquistors being corrupt, I accept that.

gLOBS
06-01-2008, 11:38
Well since it was made by their Primarch the Ultras probably know every loophole in the codex that might allow them to control so much.

Taipan
06-01-2008, 11:58
Yeah, Ultramarines are definately a bit deviant in practice, but they are still the most 'Codex' Chapter of them all. Anyway, the Codex Astartes doesn't detail everything, there are loopholes and a bit of bending that occurs throughout the Chapters.

Ultramar is an entire empire, I think the intergration of the PDF under the control of the Ultramarines was a neccessary step. I'm sure other Chapters with multiple planets do similiar things (so their home system is safeguarded). Salamanders probably do something quite similiar, due to their integration into the normal human society on Nocturne (ie they mingle with other people).

The Warmaster
06-01-2008, 12:01
Yeah, Ultramarines are definately a bit deviant in practice, but they are still the most 'Codex' Chapter of them all. Anyway, the Codex Astartes doesn't detail everything, there are loopholes and a bit of bending that occurs throughout the Chapters.

Ultramar is an entire empire, I think the intergration of the PDF under the control of the Ultramarines was a neccessary step. I'm sure other Chapters with multiple planets do similiar things (so their home system is safeguarded). Salamanders probably do something quite similiar, due to their integration into the normal human society on Nocturne (ie they mingle with other people).

Well, Salamanders aren't exactly a good example of a Codex chapter...

And, plus, there don't seem to be many other Chapters with their own empires. I mean, the Blood Angels only have two planets. I can understand a PDF, but there's also the local Guard regiments of Ultramar. If they were a more recent Chapter, they'd probably have at least one annual Inquisition inspection.

- N.

Hasan ibn Sabbah
06-01-2008, 12:10
And what if, In the battle against Alpha legion, Guilman did not win? Maby It was him who died, Alpharius made plastic surgery and is playing with whole Imperium? :D ok, it's stupid, but I like the Idea of smurf leaders being alpha legion agents :) And ok, maybe Ultramarines are biggest defenders of humanity, but so was with Emperrors Children, they were biggest defenders of humanity (even got right for aquila on armor) but one day, they started to see imperfection of humans and decided to purge it.
One day Ultramarines my decide that Imperium as it is, lost ideals of emperor, isn't developing and is dying, and as their system is described as heaven, utopia garden, with everybody happy, they may come with idea that they would be actually better administrators. It wouldn't be treachery for them but saving humanity ;)

ryng_sting
06-01-2008, 12:19
I find it hard to believe the IG armies of other systems don't consult with the nearest Space Marine Chapter Master. They are the most experienced men for the job, and the combined forces of any given sector need to have proceedures in place for co-ordinating resources, fleet engagements, etc. etc.

No world is an island out there in space - each system depends on another for something, and wider military campaigns are no different. The worlds around Deliverance, the Raven Guard's homeworld, depend on the ordinance and equipment they produce (almost the equivalent of a Forge World), making the world crucial to winning a protracted campaign. It would be entirely logical for the local PDF and IG armies to heed the counsel of the RG Chapter Master and vice versa. No other chapter has an empire, but most chapters keep a protective eye not only over their own system, but over nearby sectors as well.

The_Outsider
06-01-2008, 12:24
I find it hard to believe that the IG armies of other systems don't defer to, or at least consult with, the nearest Space Marine Chapter Master in matters military. He is the most experienced man for the job, after all, and a major system would need to have proceedures set in place for co-ordinating resources, attacks, fleet engagements, and so on.

Think about this. The worlds around Deliverance, the Raven Guard's homeworld, depend on the ordinance and equipment they produce (almost the equivalent of a Forge World), and so would be crucial to winning a protracted campaign, so it would be entirely logical for the local PDF and IG armies to heed the counsel of the RG Chapter Master, and vice versa. No other chapter has an empire, but most chapters keep a protective eye not only over their own system, but over nearby sectors as well.

One often overlooked part of Ultramar - is that the Ultramarines themselves do not rule the planets (IIRC not even Macragge) - they merely are their protectors.

There is a big difference between "we patrol a couple sectors once every couple months" to "this is our space - enter it and die".

Ultramar has a repuation for being one of the most peaceful and justly ruled places in the Imperium for a reason.

Hasan ibn Sabbah
06-01-2008, 12:39
As I remember from White Dwarf article about tyrranid attack it was said by inquisitor/someone visiting Ultramar that Ultramarines administer whole realm (than there were lots of sentences "how great they rule this realm...", praising their work).

Taipan
06-01-2008, 12:46
Yeah, so the Inquisition should be worried. "Peace? Happiness? Humans living without constant conflict and war? Heresy!"

I think the Ultramarines control Ultramar in a different way to say the Raven Guard etc. Its their system, they can deny entry to others (cept the Inquisiton). Corax would still probably be integreted into Segmentum Command, whereas Ultramar is its own little mini-Imperium in many ways.

Hasan ibn Sabbah
06-01-2008, 13:07
I would say that even if there is some kind of Imperial administration, what it can do if Calgar comes and says "ok, we must do this, this and this". What potential governor can say? Argue with him? I would say that governor (if is any) is more like ambassador in Ultramarines Empire witch is (hopefully for Imperium) allied with Terra.

The Warmaster
06-01-2008, 13:09
One often overlooked part of Ultramar - is that the Ultramarines themselves do not rule the planets (IIRC not even Macragge) - they merely are their protectors.

Er... it's been stated otherwise before. Marneus Calgar, and, by extension, the Ultramarines, have been said to rule over Ultramar.

- N.

imperial_scholar
06-01-2008, 16:41
It's probably left over pre-heresy. The Imperium doesn't like to change how worlds govern themselves. If they pay their Tithes then they care little how they run themselves. The problem is that those worlds in Ultra system are probably reliant on the Ultramarines since the get go. I bet it is a loop hole. However, if you were a space marine chapter about to embark on a mission, wouldn't you want to grab the nearest IG regiment (if needed). How much of an asset would it be to them if they helped the IG forces in that region to help with their readiness.

In 4th edition.. yes the UM's have become hypocrites. Maybe its the Smurfs 'me too... we want to be anti-codex astartes too! The bugs came and ate our 1st company and now we're dark and broody'

Sojourner
06-01-2008, 16:52
They may claim that the forces of Ultramar are not actually under their control and don't have to obey their orders. It's probably a minor sin for a Space Marine to refuse moral, spiritual or strategic guidance when it is asked for by an Imperial subject. If no Ultramarines are in the chain of command, everything is hunky dory.

One can even imagine that exchanges between PDF and Ultramarines have to be carefully scripted so as not to imply that the Marine's words are binding. A PDF commander who considers himself nominally loyal - technically allied - to the Ultramarines would have to ask the Master's opinion as to the best course of action, rather than asking for "orders".

Adra
06-01-2008, 18:37
I find it hard to believe that the IG armies of other systems don't defer to, or at least consult with, the nearest Space Marine Chapter Master in matters military. He is the most experienced man for the job, after all, and a major system would need to have proceedures set in place for co-ordinating resources, attacks, fleet engagements, and so on.
Think about this. The worlds around Deliverance, the Raven Guard's homeworld, depend on the ordinance and equipment they produce (almost the equivalent of a Forge World), and so would be crucial to winning a protracted campaign, so it would be entirely logical for the local PDF and IG armies to heed the counsel of the RG Chapter Master, and vice versa. No other chapter has an empire, but most chapters keep a protective eye not only over their own system, but over nearby sectors as well.

Yeah i agree with this. I mean marines seem to always be in charge of the space around their homeworld and obviously protect it, the difference is that Ultramar is massive so yes, although the marines do protect the systems they dont really govern it in any sense. Under their protection Ultrama has become great but Calgar and the other marines have enough to worry about without governing multiple systems.

Minister
06-01-2008, 20:09
It strikes me that a key point is being missed: the Ultramar PDF do not breach standard doctrine. The Codex reforms split the Marines from their unaugmented troops and split the Imperial Army from its ships, it certainly did not remove the requirement for all Imperial Commanders to ensure the safety of their realms. As the chapter may be amassed away from their homeworld during an attack it is a requirement that the worlds should maintain other defences appropriate to their world's population and industrial base.

Of course, many Marine worlds have very low populations, but the worlds of Ultramar do not. Not to maintain a PDF would breach both he spirit and letter of the law with respect to defence, and unless the PDF were fielded in support of the chapter externally without being first recruited to the Imperial Guard and dispatched to the battlefield by the Munitorium (which is not the case) the limits on the chapters' military are not breached.

The_Outsider
06-01-2008, 20:39
Er... it's been stated otherwise before. Marneus Calgar, and, by extension, the Ultramarines, have been said to rule over Ultramar.

- N.

Depends how you define rule.

Does marneus deal with all the ligistics of ruling an empire or does he merely "rule" by being the empire's military leader.

Naturally with 40k being about warfare I suppose that is the definition they mean.

Londinium
06-01-2008, 21:11
Depends how you define rule.

Does marneus deal with all the ligistics of ruling an empire or does he merely "rule" by being the empire's military leader.

Naturally with 40k being about warfare I suppose that is the definition they mean.

I'm fairly sure the Ultramarines immerse themselves heavily in the running of the empire, aswell as the defence of it, it's coming together and success is largely put down to Guilliman and following him the rule of the chapter and considering their fortress monastery is on Macragge, the seat of government and that the Primarch was also King of Macragge, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't sit around allowing some human beaurocrat to run the planet.

gantrakk
07-01-2008, 04:36
Damn fool Guilliman should have given the emperor a nice funeral and taken his place as the new emperor, would have solved a lot of problems to have formed a proper dynasty and got on with the empire building, all the factionism that arose instead makes the imperium considerably weaker then it should be.

Brother Handro
07-01-2008, 14:44
I was thinking more along the lines of whether the Ultramarines are consciously aware that they may be bending the Codex they revere because of the nature of their territory, duties, etc.
I was always under the impression that the Ultramarines were real hardliners, and even creative, outside-the-box thinking (for example by Uriel Ventris in the Ultramarine novels) seems to be frowned upon.

Ghost Of Caliban
07-01-2008, 23:06
Except the emperor obvioulsy didn't decree that was what he wnated otherwise it would have been done.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-01-2008, 23:18
I'm fairly sure the Ultramarines immerse themselves heavily in the running of the empire, aswell as the defence of it, it's coming together and success is largely put down to Guilliman and following him the rule of the chapter and considering their fortress monastery is on Macragge, the seat of government and that the Primarch was also King of Macragge, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't sit around allowing some human beaurocrat to run the planet.

There would be very little time left in the life of a chapter master for running an empire if he's doing his job properly. Running planets is beneath the space marines and is a job more suited to bureaucrats than genetically engineered killing machines.



See Minister's post above on reasons why the Ultras do not breach the codex.

Minister
08-01-2008, 02:15
Administering a planet is an unnecessary distraction for the Chapter Master, being the ruler is not. All the actual work will be on the part of the various councils with the oversight of one or more Marine officers who have either been invalided out of combat service or who have been assigned temporarily as part of their training.

Chaplain Dionitas
08-01-2008, 14:27
As I've asked before, does anyone happen to have a copy of the Codex Astartes? No? Then how can we really be sure of what it actually states inside regarding this issue?

Zelnik
09-01-2008, 01:07
Ultramarines=smurfs.

no..really!

they wear little white caps when your not looking! Listen to your models late at night... you will hear the singing...

Jon_Irenicus
09-01-2008, 17:13
I can't see why Tyranid War Veterans are non-Codex Astartes. They had a bucket load of experience fighting the damn critters, so it only makes sense that the few TW Vets are grouped into kill-squads. At least whle they last i.e. aren't killed in battle. The other Marines can learn from them but the only way to be that good was to have been there like they did.

The Warmaster
10-01-2008, 04:33
I can't see why Tyranid War Veterans are non-Codex Astartes. They had a bucket load of experience fighting the damn critters, so it only makes sense that the few TW Vets are grouped into kill-squads. At least whle they last i.e. aren't killed in battle. The other Marines can learn from them but the only way to be that good was to have been there like they did.

Their squad organisation has practically been described as infringing upon the guidelines of the Codex - Guilliman didn't put Tyrannic War Veterans in the Codex, and their extremely specialised nature and usage of unorthodox equipment are clear infractions. The Ultramarines themselves are fully aware that the unit type is non-Codex, although they claim that their use is justified because of the need for a full-strength Veteran Company, as well as due to their hatred of the 'Nids. Personally, I fail to see how they can still bitch about other Chapters' infractions after choosing to form the War Veteran squads, as well as when their Chapter's Honour Guard act in a rather non-Codex manner too. Well, I guess Cassius can be held fully responsible for the Tyrannic War Veterans.

- N.