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Dirty Fingers
06-01-2008, 06:18
Got an email from a good friend of mine. He's played both Hordes and Vampires for quite some time. Time and again he's beaten this guy we know. However, with the new High Elves book, apparently this Chaos friend of mine got himself utterly, utterly destroyed. He complained about the new always strikes first rule, among other things.

I know he took a Tzeetch Exalted Champ, some marauders, and some spawn, but beyond that, as i wasn't there, unfortunately, i don't know.

Knowing the HE guy as i do, he usually takes two repeater bolt throwers, a chunky unit of Swordmasters, a few archers, though not a lot, some mages, including a dragon mage, a 6 strong unit of Silver Helms, a Lion Chariot, a Tiranoc chariot, and a 30 strong unit of spearmen. Sometimes he brings eagles. This is just some of the stuff he brings. Sorry i can't be more specific.

overall, my buddy posed the question of how hordes can beat the new HE. I'm kinda at a loss, given my hatred for the Hordes book. Probably my most hated book in Fantasy. I just really really don't like it.

My only ideas thus far are Slaanesh magic to control how and when combats happen, Plaguebearers, maybe, for that -1 to hit..and that's about it.

so anybody have any ideas?

logan054
06-01-2008, 09:29
Chaos have alot of options to beat HE however you do need to use more than just the hordes book, chariots really is the no brainer here, giants are good thanks to T5, Chaos spawn, knights, beast shamans are a option (as they are cheaper than mortal ones), dragon ogres, possibly chaos ogres (as they have can have the save).

Cyrush
06-01-2008, 10:43
The key is to have a high toughness and/or armour save on your main combat units so that their pitiful strike first attacks bounce, and then you have the run on toughness three light armoured elves. High elves also have great difficulty when outmanoeuvred, so include some cavalry, monsters and/or skirmishers. For that nasty block of sword masters, chariots eat them up in short order, as they do all elves. Finally, be sure that you have some magic capabilities as even a humble fire ball can be crippling to high elves. Target the Dragon mage as with only toughness three and no armour save it is practically a gift.

Xzazzarai
06-01-2008, 11:43
Thick armour and high toughness is something that every elf struggels to beat, even the ASF High Elves.

If you can't do any wounds, it doesn't matter in which order you strike.

Allso, Chaos has character, VERY strong characters. Use them!

EvC
06-01-2008, 13:21
The Dragon Mage is pretty easily countered with Chaos; just use a pair of Spawn, space them out where you think he's going to land, and send them in (He should take the bait). Then the Spawn will easily kill the Mage on top, and then that's the enemy Mage gone...

TK421
06-01-2008, 15:55
Get a couple solid blocks of Warriors with the best armour save they can get and a bunch of Chariots and Knights to crash into him. My Elves always have trouble with Chaos just because they're so tough.

theunwantedbeing
06-01-2008, 16:25
Warriors wont be much help, they'll get shot at and hit with magic and wont see combat.
Your better off with a faster army.

Tzeentch going magic heavy would work well.
4 exaulted champions, all with red fire.

Give one of the warrior familiar(you can drop 1 guy before he gets to attack as the warrior familiar goes like an impact hit).
1 the sword of Striking so you hit on 2's and wound on 2's
1 the sword of battle for 5 attacks each.
Then the other one can have a power familiar.

Run some chariots(unless they have the starlance somewhere they cant auto-destroy your chariots)
T5 4 wounds and a 3+ armour save is difficult for elves to get rid of.

Plenty of hounds,chaos spawn work fine, tzeentch ones that breathe fire will cause him problems as well.

Conotor
06-01-2008, 17:35
High t doesnt help on swordsmasters or lions. You need a gunline or charriots.

High elves are lame.

Marneus Calgar
06-01-2008, 18:31
More like gunline for swordmasters, chariots for lions. =P

Xzazzarai
06-01-2008, 19:35
High t doesnt help on swordsmasters or lions. You need a gunline or charriots.

High elves are lame.

There's approx 20% pts of swordmasters in a HE army.
And you don't need to bring an entire gunline to deal with them... Ranks and flank attacks will make short work of them. So will chariots, and any shooting. T3 5+ AS.

Dirty Fingers
07-01-2008, 22:26
thanks a lot for the advice guys, i'll relay the info. I think he has chariots lying around, Chaos Warrior and Tuskgor ones. Again though, ugh, the fact that so many posters have mentioned using units from Beasts...it really shows to me that the Hordes book is kinda lacking. oh well. Guess you can use Beasts for a reason.

xragg
07-01-2008, 23:26
I havent played the new HE, but chaos magic should dominate the new HE just as they used to dominate the old version. If you take enough demon units, no army can match a chaos magic phase. Use the spell (forget the exact color) that makes the whole unit have to attack itself and replace each wounded model with a horror. Not only does that tie up units so they cant counter charge you, it also devastates low toughness models like HE's.

Do your best to avoid HE units that have 2 handers, tieing them up as said in the first paragraph, and stomp all the squishy units that really never could hurt chaos warriors/knights to begin with even if they went first.

mav1971
08-01-2008, 14:45
I've already got a couple of victories against High Elves with my Chaos army.
The one battle my unit of 9 chaos knights with an Aspiring champ of Tzeentch went up up against a unit of 15 swordmasters, just barely beat them. And my Undivided lord with Helm of Many Eyes in a unit of chaos warriors against his general in a unit of white lions(the lions survived 3 turns thanks to their stubborn ability). My chariot did great againt a unit of spearmen. My marauders were the only ones that got chewed by the elves.

bigbear bailey
08-01-2008, 16:00
If you're worried about the mage then take screams or better yet furies and launch them into the dragon mad and kill him... Yeah the dragon will eat the hell out of your furies but he will lose that magic....

Zoolander
10-01-2008, 04:20
If you're playing Khorne, you're in for a real fight. A good HE player will shoot you to death with missiles and spells before you get to him, and then ASF what's left to death. I played maybe 6 games with 3 different elf players, and they all skunked me big time. I just don't have the units to gange up on him like I need to. Chaos stuff is just too expensive. However, I switched to a Tzeentch lord and an aspiring champion and I am doing much better. Won all three games I've played so far, though the last one was a close one. He used the ring of korin to destroy the eye of tzeentch and the proceeded to shoot my lord to death! That's not nice!

Since most of chaos doesn't have shooting, one way around that is overloading him with magic.

Mike KK
10-01-2008, 23:57
i play high elves and prefer teclis with a dragon mage this normally combats and magic heavy armies, but ye watch out for him shooting you to bits, he'll probably take lore of metal if you field a lot of warriors or knights. but i have found suicide squads taking out my mages is the worst problem i have so use furies or hounds for this, once his magic is gone and his bolt throwers you can finish off the blocked units

Ethos
11-01-2008, 01:00
I find that Chariots are key to playing against any HE list, for apparent reasons. As for magic, I can see why Tzeentch is a good choice. Green Fire would do wonders on most any unit (considering they'll all have great weapons) and Indigo Fire wouldn't be that bad either.

But for me I might stick with Slaanesh. Having the option of the guys not even attacking when I hit them would be killer, not to mention being hit automatically. Granted, I've only had one game against them, but perhaps I like to keep my casters out of combat so that they won't get hurt as much.

But perhaps I'm all wrong when it comes to both of those issues (Slaanesh and keeping caster out of combat). I'd love to read about any battle reports from Tzeentch or Slaanesh players.

Dead Man Walking
11-01-2008, 03:25
If you play Tzentch you can make his swordsmasters attack themselves (15 swordsmasters =30 str 5 attacks! Yipe! Tzentch magic should be pretty telling against high elves.

Slaanesh magic would be good too, yeah your dragon mage has to land here in front of this unit of chosen knights. Yeah your swordsmasters cant attack this turn and are auto hit.

Get the strikes first helm of many eyes on a champ or lord. Chosen knights can withstand the asf to strike back.

The OP asked for tactics to use against the opponent, lets not get bogged down in 'Paper beats stone, stone beats scissors, scissors beats paper so your tactics wont work because of this tactic' rehashed conversation.

Ethos
11-01-2008, 05:45
Oh, right. The original topic.

Well, against HE, Chariots and Chosen are a must, as well as possibly a Helm of Many Eyes and Tzeentch (if not Slaanesh). Take the weaker units to attack his archers/RBT and keep them far away from his S5/6 attacks that would only add CR to his side. Magic him before combat, and do your best to get a flank on him. Flanks are crucial when it comes to HE, since it not only allows for less attacks against you, but also means you've essentially added 3/e to your CR (taken away his 2/3 ranks, and added a Flank to yours).

Baiting and fleeing might end up being the only real tactical advantage you have over him.

TK421
11-01-2008, 06:25
Kill the supporting units (RBT's, Archers and Chariots. Mages as well if you can get to them) They take up a good chunk of points considering how easy they are to kill and then his 2 or 3 combat units will be left on their own and likely surrounded.
Don't bother with completely ubering up your characters as even an Aspiring Champion with a GW is more then a match for most HE characters, especially if he goes magic heavy, and you can use those points on things like Furies, Screamers and Chariots to play havoc with his battle line. I wouldn't try to out-magic him as you'd likely need at least 6 Lv's to do so and then you wouldn't have much army left to fight with, just stick with the cheaper Beast Shaman scroll caddies, 1 would probably be enough as I've found Chaos warriors can shrug off most offensive spells with their toughness and armour.
I'd definitely bring a solid unit of Chosen Knights as even Swordmasters will have to get verylucky to take a charge from them and Spears will just get trampled.

superknijn
11-01-2008, 07:08
If you play Tzentch you can make his swordsmasters attack themselves (15 swordsmasters =30 str 5 attacks! Yipe! Tzentch magic should be pretty telling against high elves.

Just as a side note, Green Fire only let the unit attack itself once. Still usefull agains Sword Masters, though; you can expect to kill almost half the unit, reducing their lethality.

MarcoPollo
11-01-2008, 21:30
Just as a side note, Green Fire only let the unit attack itself once. Still usefull agains Sword Masters, though; you can expect to kill almost half the unit, reducing their lethality.

And also, if any unit has more than one weapon type, then your opponent can choose them to use the handweapon instead of their great weapon.

Green fire on bestigors works well too.

theunwantedbeing
11-01-2008, 21:35
The chaos player picks the weapons they use, not the opposing player.
Otherwise they'de always pick hand weapons (and sheilds) and you'de rarely do any damage with it.

You just use chariots and high save character's to beat high elves.
Take the helm of many eyes if you want as well,and a flail if your facing any armour beyond 5+.
Or knights, they work pretty well vs most high elves.

Chicago Slim
11-01-2008, 22:11
thanks a lot for the advice guys, i'll relay the info. I think he has chariots lying around, Chaos Warrior and Tuskgor ones. Again though, ugh, the fact that so many posters have mentioned using units from Beasts...it really shows to me that the Hordes book is kinda lacking. oh well. Guess you can use Beasts for a reason.

Hordes of Chaos is not lacking, in the least. I think people are suggesting Beast units, because beasts are cool, too.

That said, I don't see Marauders (foot or mounted) doing a lot against High Elves-- they're exactly the sort of low-T, light-armored troops that HE shooting, magic and spears are designed for.

You'll still have to pick your fights, though: Swordmasters will significantly carve up normal Chaos Warriors, for example (EV=0.59 per model, if you have shields, with comebacks of EV=0.28), but do much worse against Chosen Warriors (EV=0.33 per model, with comebacks of EV=0.56).

As noted above, avoid Khorne marks: those Elves are just too likely to bait you around the table...

sulla
11-01-2008, 23:50
That said, I don't see Marauders (foot or mounted) doing a lot against High Elves-- they're exactly the sort of low-T, light-armored troops that HE shooting, magic and spears are designed for.



A unit or two of 5 marauder horse with musc are always gonna come in handy vs any strong cc force. It's more a case of finding the points for them By the time you've bought some fighters, sorcery protection, decent sixed units to insulate vs magic and artillery, and possibly war machine hunters, you likely won't have any points left for baiters anyway...