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Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
06-01-2008, 11:34
What are the rules for the WLC's crew? I was playing against a Skaven player recently and we were unsure as to the stats of the crew. We were assuming that there were two Clanrat Slaves pushing it as it says in the book that there are 'two slaves pushing it' however, there is also a Clan Skryre Skaven on the model, and it is mentioned that there is a 'Skryre Adept' shooting the cannon in the book but there are no stats for such a model.

So do we just use the rules for Slaves and say there are only two of them in the crew and just ignore the Adept?

Griefbringer
06-01-2008, 11:45
From Skaven book 28: "The Warp-lightning cannon has a single stat-line, like a chariot."

Essentially, there are no stats for the crew, as it cannot be attacked separately from the cannon itself.

Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
06-01-2008, 11:50
Ah, so you can't disable it by destroying it's crew? Can it even move without a crew?

Griefbringer
06-01-2008, 11:57
Can it even move without a crew?

Since there is no way of killing the crew without destroying the cannon itself, the question is rather theoretical at best.

DeathlessDraich
06-01-2008, 12:08
For the purposes of being shot at - there are 2 slaves and an untouchable Adept but template shooting is still exactly like a chariot - always a partial with the small template.
Toughness for being shot at is T6, no Armour save but a Ward save.

If the fleeing crew miraculously rallies , roll a dice to decide the Adept's stats and armour - normally assumed to be that of a Clanrat or possibly Clanrat champion.

It cannot move (but can pivot to shoot) without the 2 slaves and it cannot shoot without the Adept.

Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
06-01-2008, 12:08
Ah, right. So the adept can't be shot at? If I roll a 5/6 when distributing shots against the cannon do I randomize it among the slaves/adept? Or can I only shoot the slaves?

Griefbringer
06-01-2008, 12:22
DeathlessDraich, can you provide some references for your comments - those don't seem to go well with what my copy of Skaven book says.

As regards close combat, according to the FAQ the WLC gets automatically destroyed should it ever get engaged in close combat:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/wh/skaven.pdf

DeathlessDraich
06-01-2008, 13:52
Ah, right. So the adept can't be shot at? If I roll a 5/6 when distributing shots against the cannon do I randomize it among the slaves/adept? Or can I only shoot the slaves?

No, there is no randomisation due to shooting or magic. The WLC has 3 wounds at T6 when shot at.
The adept is not shot at - that's why I like to call him untouchable.:p


DeathlessDraich, can you provide some references for your comments - those don't seem to go well with what my copy of Skaven book says.

As regards close combat, according to the FAQ the WLC gets automatically destroyed should it ever get engaged in close combat:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/wh/skaven.pdf

Yes, I'm aware of that FAQ - The crew is forced to be in combat because of magic and fights instead of fleeing etc.

Which other bits are you referring to?
- the fleeing crew follows Warmachine's fleeing crew rules. Skirmishers etc
- the Adept's stats - not mentioned in the rules hence the dice roll
- last sentence of my previous post is for re-crewing after rallying

theunwantedbeing
06-01-2008, 14:07
The cannon doesnt have any crew, it works like a chariot, single statline for the whole machine including crew.
So when it gets destroyed there is no crew left.

DeathlessDraich
06-01-2008, 14:23
Not quite.
It only *moves* like a chariot but is a warmachine

Griefbringer
06-01-2008, 14:30
- the fleeing crew follows Warmachine's fleeing crew rules. Skirmishers etc


My understanding is that the warp-light cannon flees like a chariot, not like a crew abandoning a war machine.

theunwantedbeing
06-01-2008, 14:36
I wonder what part of "the warp lightning cannon has a single statline" DeathlessDraich doesnt quite get.
Page 28, skaven rulebook.
Heck look at page 48 in the armylist and you'll see there isnt even a statline for the crew.
For all intents and purposes, they dont exist.

Urgat
06-01-2008, 14:48
Yes, but there's no crew statlines. You just consider the canon as one moving object on its own for any attacks against it. Never do you actually need to guess if it's crewed by clan slaves or whatever, you always use the canon statlines. I don't have the book at hand right now, but iirc it cannot fight in close combat anyway, it cannot charge and always has to flee as a reaction charge, so anything else is irrelevant.

edit: that's an answer to deathlesswraith

Griefbringer
06-01-2008, 14:53
Unfortunately we have the following, rather open ended item in the FAQ that I linked to earlier on:

"Q. Does a Warp-lightning Cannon count as a war machine or chariot for things like deployment and unit strenght.
A. A war machine with three crew."

happy_doctor
06-01-2008, 15:41
Griefbringer, that line in the FAQ means that the WLC is deployed simultaneously with other warmachines in the army, and counts as havin a US3 (equal to the number of crew) for panic and table quarter capturing purposes...

My 2 euro-cents, though...

Griefbringer
06-01-2008, 15:48
That is true, happy_doctor, however the text contains the problematic words "for things like" which suggests that it can count as a war machine for also some other, unspecified, things.

In which case somebody could try to stretch this claim that it counts as a war machine and not as a chariot for the purpose of determining how to handle fleeing as a charge reaction. Not that I would agree with this - fleeing, even as a charge reaction, is movement and should be in this case handled as for a chariot.

Gekiganger
06-01-2008, 15:57
Agree with Happy_Doctor, I've taken the FAQ as answering the question in regards to US and deployment only, otherwise it causes more problems than it fixes.

DeathlessDraich
07-01-2008, 10:15
I don't have the book at hand right now,
edit: that's an answer to deathlesswraith

It's DeathlessDraich.:p and the relevant rule is quoted below.


Agree with Happy_Doctor, I've taken the FAQ as answering the question in regards to US and deployment only, otherwise it causes more problems than it fixes.

No FAQ is needed. Skaven rules state that the WLC is a warmachine. Only the movement is treated as a chariot.
There are no problems other than the Adept's stats if the crew rally after fleeing

pg 29: "The WLC is a Move or Fire weapon like all other warmachines"

Masque
07-01-2008, 13:12
The crew don't have their own stats. Their stats are included in the stats of the WLC.

Skaven Army Book, Page 28
"The Warp-lightning Cannon has a single stat-line, like a chariot."

Griefbringer
07-01-2008, 13:42
pg 29: "The WLC is a Move or Fire weapon like all other warmachines"

Thanks for pointing this out, I had already gone quickly through the WLC rules twice without spotting it. The placement (and the wording) could have been better. Still, it clearly is a war-machine.

I would still argument that fleeing is movement, and that thus the WLC flees like a chariot and not like a war machine, thus preventing the crew from separating from the machine itself.

DeathlessDraich
07-01-2008, 15:38
I would still argument that fleeing is movement, and that thus the WLC flees like a chariot and not like a war machine, thus preventing the crew from separating from the machine itself.

Sorry adding an embellishment to that.

Skaven: [WLC] follows the *movement rules* for a chariot".

'Movement rules' and not 'movement' is the phrased used.

Movement rules of a chariot on pg 62-63 does not contain a single reference to how chariots should flee.

If the rule had been 'moves in the same manner as a chariot', [i.e. identical to a Steam Tank] your interpretation would have been correct,
but the rules state 'Movement rules' i.e. pgs 62-63 only.

Since the WLC is also a warmachine, it cannot be assumed that the phrase 'Movement rules' incorporate normal fleeing rules instead of a warmachine fleeing rules.

I would prefer to choose a warmachine's fleeing rules since
1) A chariot can flee because the mounts can carry the chariot away
2) I can't see why the fleeing slaves would physically want to carry the machine with them as they fled.

Guilliman
07-01-2008, 15:48
Because the slave are chained to the machine.

I don't see the problem. For all rule purposes, there IS no crew as already stated several times. It moves like a chariot and counts as a warmachine during deployment. And if the rulebook doesn't state anything about how a chariot flees I'm pretty certain it means it flees as normal...

theunwantedbeing
07-01-2008, 15:52
*sigh*
Im right about this.

Page 28 of the skaven book (yes the same page I keep yapping on about)
Under moving the cannon
The warp lightning cannon follows all the movement rules for chariots

Now we look to page 64 of the warhammer rulebook to see what the movement rules for chariots are.
Specifically fleeing if there is anything on fleeing for chariots.
Hmm a section called Flee and persuit..how strange, didnt you say there was no such wording in the chariot rules?

Chariots flee in the same manner as units

Wow look at that.
A warp lightning cannon flee's as a whole model and the crew doesnt abandon the machine.

See, I was right.

EvC
07-01-2008, 15:56
Heh, pretty clear-cut. Quite obviously, the "crew" flee as part of the WLC unit, in the same way they flee as part of any chariot unit would...

Guilliman
07-01-2008, 16:01
Thank you Unwantedbeing!

Griefbringer
08-01-2008, 08:04
2) I can't see why the fleeing slaves would physically want to carry the machine with them as they fled.

Sorry for introducing fluff on the rules forum, but there is actually a fluff explanation for this in the book (page 28):

"the warpstone ... bestows enough strength to the slaves for them to quickly carry out his [adept's] orders to retreat."

DeathlessDraich
08-01-2008, 08:51
I don't see the problem. For all rule purposes, there IS no crew as already stated several times. It moves like a chariot and counts as a warmachine during deployment.

No, Skaven rules do explicitly state it is a warmachine - see post #18




Hmm a section called Flee and persuit..how strange, didnt you say there was no such wording in the chariot rules?

Chariots flee in the same manner as units
See, I was right.

Unfortunately not.

1) WLC rules state "movement rules" - only pg 62/63 can be used which if you read my previous post carefully, does not mention fleeing.

2) Chariot Flee and pursuit rules *cannot* be used because the WLC does not have a given Strength and *cannot* cause impact hits when it flees.

In fact (2) is an indisputable reason why the WLC *cannot* flee like a chariot and should flee like a warmachine.

Griefbringer: I'm fully convinced now that it should flee as a warmachine. What do you think?

T10
08-01-2008, 09:45
I think you are fully convinced that it should flee as a warmachine.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
08-01-2008, 09:48
LOL! LOL! LOL! back on form T10

Griefbringer
08-01-2008, 10:30
2) Chariot Flee and pursuit rules *cannot* be used because the WLC does not have a given Strength and *cannot* cause impact hits when it flees.


Actually, it has a strenght - of 0. See rulebook, page 5, section "Characteristics of 0", first sentence:

"Some creatures have been given a value of '0' (sometimes shown as a dash '-')"

So the WLC would cause D6 impact hits at S 0 if it would flee through a unit like a chariot. Of course that leads to the question of how hits on S 0 are resolved, since such value is not included in the To Wound -chart.

theunwantedbeing
08-01-2008, 11:56
*sigh*
DeathlessDraich, either quit disagreeing with me or actually read the rules for the warplightning cannon on page 28 of the skaven armybook.

Warplightning Cannons follow all the movement rules for chariots

How is how you flee, not a movement rule?
Fleeing is movement is it not?

Maybe your just trolling.....

DeathlessDraich
08-01-2008, 12:23
Actually, it has a strenght - of 0. See rulebook, page 5, section "Characteristics of 0", first sentence:

"Some creatures have been given a value of '0' (sometimes shown as a dash '-')"

So the WLC would cause D6 impact hits at S 0 if it would flee through a unit like a chariot. Of course that leads to the question of how hits on S 0 are resolved, since such value is not included in the To Wound -chart.

You've opened up an old can of worms here.
The Chariot stats was exhaustively discussed in another thread without reaching a conclusion.
I don't want to restart that discussion but this phrase is equally important to the chariot statline rules as the one you quoted "some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used".

In any case, I think we've said enough on the matter and will have to agree to disagree.

Niv Mizzet - It's up to you to decide.

unwantedbeing -
Accusations like this are serious, borders on being offensive and in this case totally unfounded [and also contains a spelling error :D]


Maybe your just trolling.....

I feel very reluctant to dignify your impatience and dogmatic approach -

*sigh*
Im right about this.
.

with a reply but if you insist this is the only reply I wish to make:
You've chosen to ignore some rules from the Skaven book and from the main rule book.

theunwantedbeing
08-01-2008, 12:49
Care to prove page references to back up your claims?

Whats that rubbish about it not being able to use chariot flee rules as it doesnt have a strength so cant cause impact hits?
It's not a chariot.
It just follows the movement rules for it and has a rule that allows it to march and a rule that makes it get killed by high strength attacks in the same manner as a chariot.

It doesnt cause impact hits as it isnt a chariot.

T10
08-01-2008, 20:59
While it is true that the unit description mentions the crew, the unit entry does not provide separate profiles from these. Had these been included it would be natural to assume that the Warp Lightning Cannon is indeed a regular artillery piece, but that the warmachine has certain traits in common with a chariot.

In my opinion it is best to treat the whole unit as a single model in the same manner as one would a chariot, i.e.: no attacking the separate "components".

The fact that it must always flee if charged should serve to keep it out of combat, but certain effects may allow unit to engage it wothout providing an opportunity to flee. If it is ever engaged in close combat I assume that it is unable to fight, but I am perfectly willing to listen to any suggestions from my opponent.

-T10