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View Full Version : Are there non-evil, non-Imperial, non-Chaos Space Marines?



Baltar
06-01-2008, 21:41
I had the idea of doing a Space Marine Chapter that sort of existed on its own, fighting to survive, having abandoned the Imperium.

But I don't want them to be Chaos types, and I don't want them to be particularly evil either...

Has anyone ever done this? Are there Fluff precedents?

Snipafist
06-01-2008, 21:43
I think the Relictors went rogue and haven't been completely mopped up yet. It's hard to think of a chapter willingly going rogue though - they're very closely watched by the Inquisition and rely on Imperial assistance for their weaponry and vehicles.

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
06-01-2008, 21:47
Soul Drinkers are one chapter who have rejected the Imperium and Chaos.

Moriarty
06-01-2008, 22:00
Try my Marines Penitent chapter.

Those who have transgressed are required to do pennance in the Marines Penitent. They have no banners or special equipment, operate as independant companies, and are ignored by Imperials as being beneath notice.

Once they have done their 'time', the marines are returned to their parent chapter as chastened marines.

My company are obliged to scrub the paint from their armour before taking the field.other companies have a scroll with the word 'Penal' across the right shoulder pad. You could decide your own destictions.

Cheers,

ancient_conflict
06-01-2008, 22:23
Soul Drinkers are one chapter who have rejected the Imperium and Chaos.

technically read the Chapter war before going any further down this path and it is entirely possible that chapters have left the imperium and the imperium just think they have been destroyed create your own fluff but in this case the soul drinkers series are a must read for info

carlisimo
06-01-2008, 22:39
The Chaos codex describes renegade marine chapters too. It talks about how they become corsairs and mercenaries... but it does say they inevitably turn to the gods of Chaos. I guess you would just have to disregard that little tidbit.

Ghost Of Caliban
06-01-2008, 22:56
you could assume that some of the fallen dark angels who were caught on the wrong side of the civil war or were not even on caliban when it was destroyed and have not fallen to chaos(or could be hunting the fallen who have) etc.

totgeboren
06-01-2008, 23:02
I dunno really. Marines are not your average special forces soldier. They are hyper-indoctrinated for following orders and for being loyal to the Imperium. They also train every day of the week, all year long, for killing. And when they dont do that, they are at war, killing people and xenos alike.
Try to imagine such a mind, such a psyche. Without the loyalty to the Imperium and the support from the Imperium, what would drive such men on?

They only know how to fight and kill, and that is what they will do.
To get resources for their chapter they would need to attack humans. Attacking Orks or Eldar will not give them any fuel for their vehicles and ships, or spare parts for their weapons and armours.
So, they could attack the followers of chaos, but then the supplies they would get would be tainted. And that would lead to their fall to the Dark Gods sooner or later anyway.

So, if you want them to be non-chaos non-imperial, they would need to attack and kill human Imperial civilians just to be able to continue their Chapter.
Since it would be kinda stupid to attack Imperial armed forces unless you really have to.

In the eyes of their victims they would probably be seen as very evil. But you could say its for a good cause or something. Like the Traitor Legions once said about 10.000 years ago. ;)

Sir_Turalyon
06-01-2008, 23:14
Chaos codex says that non-imperial Space Marines usualy end up as Chaos Marines. Loyalist Marines maintain very rigrid discipline, practicaly sacrificing their personal lives. As long as they keep discipline it's hard for them to abandon Emperor, but when they do abandon him, unneeded discipline laxes, marines try to "get a life" for themselves. After years of self-sacrifice they overreact and become egoistic; as war is only life they knowthey become violent. This usualy leads to worship of Chaos.

There are exceptions, through. Cypher's Fallen Angels have abandoned Imperium, but consider themselves loyal to Emperor and still use ATSKNF rule. Space Wolves 13th Company has never abandoned the Imperium, but are no longer recognized by Adeptus Terra and Inquisition. There are Chapters that, due to warpstorms, get cut off from rest of Imperium for centuries and have to exist on their own untilcontact is reestabilished.

Ghost Of Caliban
06-01-2008, 23:49
Sir_turalyon.
Yeah cypher is a weird one, in each dex he has gotten some differing fluff with him, before it was the "chaos" powers who would whisk him away before he could either be killed or captured. But if he is loyal to the emperor how could that be?
Also it is generally accepted that the fallen think it was Jonson who is in the wrong and the emperor is not a god. So who is looking out for them?

Lastman
07-01-2008, 03:45
That's my take on Iron Warriors. Dissed by the the Emperor and his pretty boys after doing most of the heavy lifting, they had the brains and materiel to go it alone. Bionics > mutation anyday.

Hellebore
07-01-2008, 04:46
I'm sure that there are some marine squads or companies that have gone mercenary - not necessarily turned to the chaos gods but sell their services for money.

It's just that the rigid denial marines place themselves under means that when they do break their conditioning it often leads to excess.

Never say never though...;)

Hellebore

Rabid Bunny 666
07-01-2008, 07:21
you could assume that some of the fallen dark angels who were caught on the wrong side of the civil war...

Or some DA Loyalists that were stuck fighting the Fallen on Caliban when the Chaos Gods destoyed it. Hunted by their comrades and seeing an Imperium so far removed from the Crusade era.

Zelnik
08-01-2008, 14:53
the answer in the end is yes. Despite indoctrination, entire chapters for some reason decide to go to chaos.

However, in the end, they are still human, capable of human emotions and decisions. While these chapters who decide to survive on their own are indeed small and few, they are quite capable of resisting chaos, and able to accept contracts and alliances with the more acceptable forms of xenos.

How do i know this? because in a moment of lucidity, GW gave us the tools to make our own chapters! Break the damned mold and use your own creativity.

My personal renegade chapters:
The Einherijar, Upon discovering texts in a ruined human settlement that dated back to the golden age of technology, these once loyal marines have began worshipping gods so old that none know their names aside from their leaders. With mysterious wood like armor and massive stag horns protruding from their helmets, they fight for the glory that is their new gods!

The Daughters of Electra: While not technically space marines, these female warriors have developed similar physical characteristics to the genetically modified humans thanks to their high gravity world of Themiskyra. Through the clever manipulation of a foolish (and easily seduced) inquisitor, they have gained power armor and weapons to defend their homeworld against the inquisition, who sees them as too dangerous to live.

The Dorsai Mercenaries: Cut off in the far eastern fringes of the galaxy by warp storms, this small successor chapter barely survived, only to find that they had been written off as destroyed by the empire that birthed them. Without supplies, they would die out, so they take their martial skill to anyone who can afford it.

And before anyone barks "heretic", the galaxy is a big place, and even the most radical and loopy inquisitor cannot see all. I seek to defy the Administratum!

Taipan
08-01-2008, 15:13
the answer in the end is yes. Despite indoctrination, entire chapters for some reason decide to go to chaos.

Did you even read this thread, or for that matter the Chaos codex? Pretty clear that if a Space Marine (or bunch of them) fall out of their rigid lifestyle, they go nuts. Its not "some reason", its called basic human emotions supressed for ages, finally released.


However, in the end, they are still human, capable of human emotions and decisions. While these chapters who decide to survive on their own are indeed small and few, they are quite capable of resisting chaos, and able to accept contracts and alliances with the more acceptable forms of xenos.

Really? How about the fact that every Chapter that goes renegade ends up Chaotic? Chapters that go rogue are totally screwed; they lose their support from the Imperium (ie food, ammunition, fuel, spare parts, the Ad Mech), and they are being hunted all across the galaxy by the Grey Knights. Also, Space Marines would never willingly work for a xenos; whatever their beef with the Imperium, an Astarte is told from the moment they are inducted that the only fate for a xenos is death. Having fought them for a length of time, I doubt a Space Marine would be dissuaded of that opinion (given the type of aliens the Space Marines have to fight). The only option left to them is to go pirate and start raiding supply lines (which means they end up in conflict with real CSM and soon they'll fall under the sway of Chaos).


How do i know this? because in a moment of lucidity, GW gave us the tools to make our own chapters! Break the damned mold and use your own creativity.

Yeah, lets all break canon and do our own thing! That way, when people ask "whats the background for your army" you can say plasuable stuff like "oh they work for the Necrons and get free gauss guns, which I just count as bolters" or "oh yeah, that SM army works for the Tau". :wtf:


My personal renegade chapters:
The Einherijar, Upon discovering texts in a ruined human settlement that dated back to the golden age of technology, these once loyal marines have began worshipping gods so old that none know their names aside from their leaders. With mysterious wood like armor and massive stag horns protruding from their helmets, they fight for the glory that is their new gods!

:eyebrows: uh huh, just like that eh? How do you know it isn't just Tzeentch?


The Daughters of Electra: While not technically space marines, these female warriors have developed similar physical characteristics to the genetically modified humans thanks to their high gravity world of Themiskyra. Through the clever manipulation of a foolish (and easily seduced) inquisitor, they have gained power armor and weapons to defend their homeworld against the inquisition, who sees them as too dangerous to live.

Don't go there. Please. Its not worth the pain. If you want that use SoB, but for sanity please do not use the SM codex.


The Dorsai Mercenaries: Cut off in the far eastern fringes of the galaxy by warp storms, this small successor chapter barely survived, only to find that they had been written off as destroyed by the empire that birthed them. Without supplies, they would die out, so they take their martial skill to anyone who can afford it.

Already covered this. They'll end up chaotic eventually.


And before anyone barks "heretic", the galaxy is a big place, and even the most radical and loopy inquisitor cannot see all. I seek to defy the Administratum!

:rolleyes: well, there's more than 1 Inquisitor. And something like a SM Chapter going rogue doesn't just slip by the Adminstratum. The Ad Mech takes gene-seed tithes from all the Chapters on a regular basis, failure usually results in a quick visit from the Ad Mech. If the Chapter still doesn't co-operate, Inquisiton warns them (in best serious voice, while threatening death of homeworld). That fails, Grey Knights hunt them down and purge them all.

pookie
08-01-2008, 15:33
well although the fluff states that a chapter will eventually turn to chaos worship, there is nothing that says how long this takes, imo it would be around the time they stop being self sufficent, but there could be a few hundred years before this actually happens, so id say go for it, just back it up with your fluff stating that they only recently decided to go it alone.

good idea me thinks.

Dominus_Serui
08-01-2008, 16:04
I somehow find it somewhat unreasonable for the unrelenting position to be, if you operate away fromt he Empire, you end up turned to Chaos, Chaos enjoys TEMPTING Marines, regardless of wether they are fallen or not - but simply because they are renegade from the Imperium does not meen they are suddenly going to collapse into a mutation-fit - whole chapters might not survive if they're left wandering space but its not unreasobale for some Marines not to turn.

Look at the Salamanders chapter, the majority of their number take wives and live away from the fortress-monestary, and not a single one of them is going to suddenly fall if he continues beeing 'human' outside of the Imperium - its the more rigid chapters that are going to fall if they are thrown out of the Imperium simply because how bitterly inhuman they are, but those that allow their numbers to live as regular humans aren't going to be any more at risk inside or outside the Imperium.

The ONLY reason the majority of renegades turn to Chaos is because they're...renegade...and the Imperium really really doesn't like deserters, expecially from the Loyalist elite, so they hunt them down, and about the only place humans are safe outside of the Imperium, is the eye of terror under the protection of a chaos god...I choose not to mention Tau because of their nature. But Marine mercs don't really work because...theres allot of Imperium, and very few friendly faces to a deserter.

Chainaxe07
08-01-2008, 16:27
I suppose there are.
The Soul Drinkers, official and all, are exactly that kind of chapter.
I suppose small bands of renegades can hold on indefinitely without being really chaos (most fallen angels, as stated in DA codex, are an exemple).
Also i suppose another way to go rogue is to turn simply bloodthirsthy as the NL di before the heresy, and do not worship chaos at all.
The Sons of Malice too seem to be a renegade, not entirely chaos chapter, but i dont know much about them.

Krog Ironclaw
08-01-2008, 17:08
Yeah, lets all break canon and do our own thing! That way, when people ask "whats the background for your army" you can say plasuable stuff like "oh they work for the Necrons and get free gauss guns, which I just count as bolters" or "oh yeah, that SM army works for the Tau". :wtf:



:eyebrows: uh huh, just like that eh? How do you know it isn't just Tzeentch?



Don't go there. Please. Its not worth the pain. If you want that use SoB, but for sanity please do not use the SM codex.



Already covered this. They'll end up chaotic eventually.


:rolleyes: well, there's more than 1 Inquisitor. And something like a SM Chapter going rogue doesn't just slip by the Adminstratum. The Ad Mech takes gene-seed tithes from all the Chapters on a regular basis, failure usually results in a quick visit from the Ad Mech. If the Chapter still doesn't co-operate, Inquisiton warns them (in best serious voice, while threatening death of homeworld). That fails, Grey Knights hunt them down and purge them all.

The Space Marines Codex gives you the Chapter Traits system for 2 express purposes:
1. Represent an actual Chapter that doesn't already have it's own Codex (i.e. Imperial Fists)
<or>
2. Create your own Chapter. Emphasis on the words your own. You can give them whatever background you want, GW leaves certain aspects of the Fluff open-ended for that exact reason. If he wants to have Space Marines that would be more at home with Native Americans, then let him. Actually thats my favorite of those ideas.

Critias
09-01-2008, 07:06
Yes, but a part of creating your own anything is accepting that not everyone is going to be a huge fan of it. No one can stop him (or anyone else) from creating any Chapter they want to with any rules-legal traits they care to use. But that doesn't mean people have to appreciate whatever fluff someone cooks up. Just like anyone that cares to is free to create any piece of fan fiction they want, other people are free to vaguely dislike it if it doesn't fit into the established canon of the game universe.

The freedom to create is a two-way street.

Chainaxe07
09-01-2008, 07:17
Now that i think about it, in the WD article on rogue chapters ( a while ago, indded) it was mentioned at least another non-chaos rogue chapter, that worshipped the emperor in the form of animal totems. They were declared traitors, but dont remember the name and do not know if they ever received an official paint scheme.

Knights of Requiem
09-01-2008, 10:41
I honestly dont beleive that just because Space Marines think, *Enough of this crap, i'm outta here!* that that INSTANTLY means that soon enough they will be thinking, *Hey those guys who are just a more evil version of the imperium sound swell, i think i will join them!*

I honestly beleive that Space Marines would witness the inquistiion at work, lose faith with the Imperium, and go off and do their own thing. Loyalty to the Imperium is one thing, Loyalty to the Emperor is another, and Loyalty to the People is again different.

I love the idea of renegade marines.

Hell i love the idea of The DA Fallen starting a new chapter, away from the administration.

My own personal idea was the Nightstalkers Legion. During the Horus Heresy, whilst chapters turned their backs on the Imperium, some members of those chapters kept their faith. some managed to escape execution and they fled their chapters, seeking to return to the Imperium to aid in the defence of Terra. The loyalist chapters, seeing the markings on their armour, fired upon them, presuming them to be traitors. It was then that Brother Captain Archedes of the Alpha Legion (i assume the Alpha legion to retain the most loyalists as it is in their history) sought out, and found as many of these surviving warbands, bringing them together to form their own chapter. The waged a guerilla war on the Traitor legions until the end of the Heresy, where their loyal brother marines saw them as Traitors, and fired upon them also.
As a result, the Nightstalkers legion fled to the far reaches of imperial space. They set up camp, and banded together. They watched the imperium grow into what it is today, and grew less and less faith in the Administorium. They remianed faithful to the Emperor, and to the people of the Imperium.Thus they often appear to aid Planetary Defence Forces, just as the govenor feels as if he has been abandoned. They remain true to the Emperors teachings, and are suspected of having assassinated various Inquisitors who have delved into their affairs, or cause senseless violence for the people of the Imperium.

That was my idea, and i've always wanted to create the chapter.But there you have it, Rogue Marines, not Chaos, not fully Imperial, doing their own thing, for the Emperor!

SpaceLanceCorporal
09-01-2008, 12:39
I think Starcraft has some.

pookie
09-01-2008, 15:19
I think Starcraft has some.

???:confused: ???

Sephtar II
09-01-2008, 15:23
In graham McNeills third Ultramarins book 'Dead sky Black sun' Urial and Passonius (is that right?) were outcast from the chapter and wondered around killing stuff in the eye of terror. they met up with some other wondering marines too who had wondered off from the imperium, there was a Raven Guard fellow and a few others.

BaronDG
09-01-2008, 16:23
Technically, that is what you have with the legion of the damned. I wouldn't consider making a chapter any less extreme than them, if that is what you are aiming for.

malika
09-01-2008, 16:30
Before it became too clear that the Tiger Claws (now Astral Claws) are Chaos Space Marines the Badab War was basically Space Marines rebelling on their own against the Imperium. Back in the RT days you also had the "Inter-Legion-war" instead of the Horus Heresy. (Leman Russ was still a commander back then instead of a Primarch)

pookie
10-01-2008, 12:36
the Badab war has always been about marines rebelling with no indecation of Chaos influences till after they leave Badab and head into the malestrom.

Anointed_By_Filth
10-01-2008, 14:56
The Space Marines Codex gives you the Chapter Traits system for 2 express purposes:
1. Represent an actual Chapter that doesn't already have it's own Codex (i.e. Imperial Fists)
<or>
2. Create your own Chapter. Emphasis on the words your own. You can give them whatever background you want, GW leaves certain aspects of the Fluff open-ended for that exact reason. If he wants to have Space Marines that would be more at home with Native Americans, then let him. Actually thats my favorite of those ideas.

Native American? Where did you pick up Native American? Stag horns and wooden armor doesn't default to Native American, in fact, I don't recall Native American's wearing wooden armor, hides and pelts yes, but not wooden armor. Then, of course, there's the name, that's definitely not a Native American name, it's Norse. He's drawn the inspiration for that chapter from Norse mythology. Einherijar, as I recall, are the warriors the Valkyrie brought back to fight for the Norse gods during Ragnarok, or something close to that.

malika
10-01-2008, 19:40
the Badab war has always been about marines rebelling with no indecation of Chaos influences till after they leave Badab and head into the malestrom.

Well the latest incarnation of the Badab War has kind of changed, they seem to be more Chaos like in their rebellion. Personally I preferred the idea that Huron rebelled either as some just figure who wants to "liberate" the Imperium from the tyranny of the High Lords of Terra, or a less idealistic figure who is more megalomaniac and believes that Space Marines should rule the universe because they are superior.

downundercadet07
10-01-2008, 22:46
I think it is possible, but only if the chapter or company or whatever was a space based chapter like the blood ravens or the black templars, one that could create their own war material from orbit. Some chapters are more self sufficient than others, and on the far extreme of the spectrum are chapters that are nearly completely self reliant, with their own foundries and mini-forge worlds. It would have to be a chapter like that.

Kandarin
10-01-2008, 22:53
Now that i think about it, in the WD article on rogue chapters ( a while ago, indded) it was mentioned at least another non-chaos rogue chapter, that worshipped the emperor in the form of animal totems. They were declared traitors, but dont remember the name and do not know if they ever received an official paint scheme.

Steel Cobras. They're holed up on the bottom of their homeworld's caustic oceans, where only an assault from other Marines could possibly reach them. The other Astartes chapters in the area regard their condemnation as unjust, and so no Marine force has volunteered to assault their last retreat and wipe them out.

Or at least, that's the old Steel Cobras fluff. The new CSM codex may have made them go Chaos.

pookie
11-01-2008, 14:16
Steel Cobras. They're holed up on the bottom of their homeworld's caustic oceans, where only an assault from other Marines could possibly reach them. The other Astartes chapters in the area regard their condemnation as unjust, and so no Marine force has volunteered to assault their last retreat and wipe them out.

Or at least, that's the old Steel Cobras fluff. The new CSM codex may have made them go Chaos.

nope nothing in the new Dex - what you said is about it - oh, its oceans of Amonia iirc that they are based under.