PDA

View Full Version : The 4 foot charge



Caboose123
07-01-2008, 16:51
Sorry if this is a very stupid question, but where is the rule in the BRB that stops players declaring a charge that is not reasonably within charge range, or does such a rule exist?

i.e. whats to stop my zombies declaring a charge on a Warp Lightning Cannon on turn 1 (so it flees off the table)

The classic instances of this are of course the skaven Warp Lightning Cannon but is also used to remove screens so the screened unit can charge (Supposing the screened unit could see the intended target) which is particularly true for VC and Chaos (good doggys...)

Thanks for the help.

lokigod
07-01-2008, 16:54
It's covered in the FAQ for the rule book on GW site.

marv335
07-01-2008, 16:54
IIRC 7th ed changed/clarified the rules to disallow charges that are blatantly out of range

Lord Zarkov
07-01-2008, 16:55
It's not in the BRB, but is explicitly stated as cheating in the current Warhammer FAQ & Eratta on the GW website

McMullet
07-01-2008, 16:57
There is a statement to the effect of "you must be reasonably sure the unit is in range".

That is, of course, subjective and not really enforceable as a rule. If someone does it they won't get many more games (I'm willing to bet the one they do it in wouldn't be finished), at a tournament a judge would probably (hopefully) not allow it.

Caboose123
07-01-2008, 17:08
Well, thanks (that was quick :))

Still how far does "reasonably sure" stretch?
It still seems a bit vague to me, like a flyer charging the aforementioned Warp Lightning Cannon on turn 2 maybe, on a 4 foot board this should be impossible (depending on deployment zones)

Im not really satisfied with this, in tournaments especially there is some really suspect play; thanks for the answer anyway :(

Lord Zarkov
07-01-2008, 17:11
It's very possible for a flyer to charge all they way across the board by turn 2 with a standard deployemnt zone if it's deployed nerely opposite

Caboose123
07-01-2008, 17:16
Not the point!
How about a unit with say 14" charge declaring a charge on something about 18" away, its arguable whether your opponent is doing it on purpose, but YOU can clearly tell there out..
Or similar instances...

Ethos
07-01-2008, 17:18
I just pay close attention to where they set up and how far they move. It's simple math, really. Just need to keep an eye out for it.

Ethos
07-01-2008, 17:20
2nd part to my previous post (haha, sorry I forgot it).

If you can prove that they're definitely out of range (and not by only 2 or so inches) then I'd pull up my records of their movement and show them how they're wrong in declaring a charge...

Caboose123
07-01-2008, 17:27
Well, I don't keep movement records, but this is probably the best answer ill get...
Just saw the FAQ which blatantly states that players will probably cheat ^^

Keeping track of how far everyone moved could quite easily drain the game, and it would be quite easy to lose track...

Still thanks for replying all!

Borthcollective
07-01-2008, 17:35
Anything over 2 inches off is blatant to me. You have a tape measure in your hand, if you can't look at it and determine that your out of range, then maybe you should sit and look at it all day until it clicks.

knightime98
07-01-2008, 20:16
Specifically, with the Warp Lightning Cannon or other such vice, whereby a Charge automatically forces it to flee I would treat it like a fear test.
Meaning that for you to take a fear test the opponent must declare the charge.
Fair enough.
Then you declare your charge reaction intention. (Which I would allow the WLC to choose STAND as an option if you REALLY feel the charge is out of range blatantly).
Note that nothing at this point has moved or been measured.
Then when it comes to move chargers you measure the distance.
As with fear, you only test WHEN the chargers are determined to be within their
Charge range.
If they are out of charge range - then the Warp Lightning Cannon does not have to do anything as you are out of range... I don't want to say they are getting a free pass but it does seem to be fair and make sense to me.

McMullet
07-01-2008, 20:31
I remember T10 (at least I think it was T10, apologies if it wasn't to whomever it was) came up with a very nifty solution to this problem: The "You'll never make it!" house rule. Basically, if you think your opponent is out of range you can invoke the rule, allowing them to premeasure the distance and thus avoid a failed charge. The principal behind this is that you would only use it if you thought your opponent was trying to gain an advantage from an obvious failed charge.

Not an official rule, of course, but it should be!

enyoss
07-01-2008, 21:01
I remember T10 (at least I think it was T10, apologies if it wasn't to whomever it was) came up with a very nifty solution to this problem: The "You'll never make it!" house rule.

That was a long time ago, and was based on one of my suggestions if I remember correctly ;). My regular group once used a houserule whereby if a charge failed by a certain percentage then it was declared void, and there was some kind of penalty (I think the unit had to remain stationary in the same way as if it had rallied).

The problem with all these solutions though is that in order to enact them you need a nice sporting bunch of houserule supporting players, and if you've got opponents like that then you probably don't need the rule in the first place :D.

Cheers,

enyoss

Gekiganger
07-01-2008, 21:34
More houserules I know, but any situation where the result is a major advantage or disadvantage (WLCs running yadayada), we would just measure the range after the charge was declaired but before the cannon was forced to do anything.

chivalrous
08-01-2008, 01:28
Frankly, the charge reactions rules for these Skaven units and the rules for Fear and Terror as they are currently written are open to abuse and the easier (and more importantly controllable) solution is not to try and make a rule against stupid charge estimates* but to slightly alter the circumstances under which the unit automatically flees or the psychology test is taken.
For the Skaven units, they should only flee once the charging is deemed to be within range OR the Skaven flee but may immediately move back to their machine if the charge fails and the charging unit ends up further than x" away from the machine.
For Fear and Terror tests, a similar thing. As soon as the charge is deemed to be in range (and the unit hasn't declared to flee as a reaction) then they take the test.

In my opinion, this sort of rule should be mandatory for tournament gaming, where there is a known abusable situation, then tournaments should have specific rules to deny that abuse.
There are already rules and errata for what armies and what items are allowed in the packs tournaments give out to competitors, so it wouldn't be unprecedented to have a couple of rule enhamncements in the packs as well.

WLBjork
08-01-2008, 10:00
chivalrous, they've already changed the Fear and Terror tests to requiring you to be in range of the charge before testing.

The Flee! reaction is a little harder to change though. It possible for player A to declare a charge, player B to choose to flee and then when it's measured up it transpires player A was short by an inch.

In this case, it would be better to alter the rules on the WLC (and any other units which behave in the same way).

chivalrous
08-01-2008, 18:21
The Flee! reaction is a little harder to change though. It possible for player A to declare a charge, player B to choose to flee and then when it's measured up it transpires player A was short by an inch.

In this case, it would be better to alter the rules on the WLC (and any other units which behave in the same way).

Which is why I suggested that initially the crew flee but if the the crew may return if the chargers don't get close enough.

I will change part of that suggestion though say rather than the chargers ending up X" away from the unit, because that will penalise some units more than others with the moving half distance because of the failure,
The Skaven may only return to their machine if the overall charge distance fell short by X" (say 2"-4")*. Representing the skaven getting scared by a reasonable imminent if not present threat rather than running from a dot on the horizon.


Knowing what I myself am like at judging distances this isn't necessarily too generous. Firing Mortars and Trebuchet, my guesses are usually way out. I just don't have that particular knack.