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EvilIncarnate
23-09-2005, 20:01
Well it seems that in the new box for 7ed it will be Dwarfs and Orc and Goblins. We know that the Dwarf book is coming out in Jan. I take it that the next book after that would be O&G it would only make sense. How and/or what would people like to see change/added/dropped etc in the new book? Here are some of mine.

1. The Wyvern needs to have more attacks or just a drop in points(I vote for a drop in points). Plus, a goblins should be able to ride one to. It would add some much needed hitting power in an all goblin/night goblin force.

2. Need some min-monster mounts (50-100pts) for other charcaters like a Giant wolf for regular goblins, giant pet cave squig for night goblins, some type of mount for orc heros to ride.

3. The magic items need to be looked over most are pointless.

4. It would be cool for Night goblin champions to have the option of having a pet cave squig with them.

5. Bring back forest goblins.

6. Something small but why can't charcaters take a bow? They have troops armed with bows then why can't the chacarters take bows?

7. There needs to be some more options for when you want to take an all goblin or night goblin army. These armies seem plain when you try to make them.

8. Have the otpion of having an all Orc crew for war machines for people who want noithing but orcs in their armies.

Well those are my thoughts. What do you guys think?

Avian
23-09-2005, 20:47
General stuff:

-Goblin Big Bosses should be 2 per slot, but no extra BBs for having all Gobbo characters
-Magic banner options for Goblins if your general is a Goblin Warlord
-Boar Boyz Core if your general is a Warboss on a boar
-you can't have a character of a given race unless you have some units of that same race
-wolf chariots limited by number of wolf rider units
-boar chariots 2 per special, but limited by number of orc units
-minders for trolls
-pretty much all magic items reviewed

branchwrath
23-09-2005, 21:10
Agreed about Forest Goblins...Those guys were just too cool.

A Goblin riding a Wyvern though? I dunno...Seems like too much beast for a Gobbo to handle.

Avian
23-09-2005, 21:31
A Goblin riding a Wyvern though? I dunno...Seems like too much beast for a Gobbo to handle.
And would you really want a Goblin Warboss on a wyvern to begin with?

I think Wyverns are okay as they are, the option for a rank-negating, flying model is great and the problem is that taking one leaves your general far away from the troops that need his Ld, something you can't fix by altering the wyvern itself. I have used on at 3k on several occasions with good success and a couple of times at 2.5k (fun, but risky).

Xorianas
23-09-2005, 22:01
I will echo the sentiment about forest goblins. How about making them skirmish or scout to go along with their forest lifestyle?

I am really jazzed up about the spider riders. This will be a great monstrous mount option for gobbo characters, too.

They should keep savage orcs around as I think they have a lot of potential. The only thing keeping people from using them is the fact they are all metal and would cost a king's ransom to base an army on. I would gladly buy some as a plastic regiment. Ditto for boar riders.

As far as the wyvern goes, I think it would be cool, but fluffwise I really don't see cowardly/weak (individual) goblins having the intestinal fortitude to manhandle a wyvern into submission, even a boss. They can't even ride boars!

Just my $0.02

Shimmergloom
23-09-2005, 23:05
forest goblins even if just as spider riders and let us have gnoblars.

0-1 core boar boyz. the rest are special.

0-1 upgrade for crossbowboyz.

troll champ with ld6.

2 for 1 rare snotling pump wagons.

great orc shamans can ride wyverns.

savage orc warlords and great shamans can ride small rhinoxs.

Goblin shamans can ride giant spiders.

S2 for goblins, gnoblars, forest goblins. stay at 2pts each.

S3 for hill goblins, 3pts each.

Get rid of the useless magic items that infect our list and replace with better items or sort of orc abilities like 10 of the other armies already have. Those things are no longer special. Either limit those special marks, blessings, honors to 2 or 3 armies or give them to everyone.

Xorianas
24-09-2005, 00:54
Forgot about the gnoblars. Definitely need to be added.

I don't think O&G should have x-bows. It kind of defeats the purpose of Ruglud and his merry crew, and I kinda like them.

Leave the strength alone, but work on the points thing. I would love to see gnoblars as buy 2 for 3 points.
Hill goblins stay 2 points.
Forest goblins cost 3 points, same stats as normal gobbos, but skirmish, add'l +1 pt for scout.

I dig the rinox idea. makes a good monstrous mount. Plus, I would love to see a plastic version or 2.

Arrer Boyz Big'Uns!

For the abilities... Have the geographic location the Waagh is from dictate that. Maybe +1T for a warboss from the badlands, etc. kind of like the kindreds in the WE book (sorry, it's fresh in my mind).

kirktheorc
24-09-2005, 01:10
I personally don't like the idea of Gnoblars and rhinox in the O&G list. The OK and O&G are so close fluff wise that it would blurr the lines even more.

I love the idea of Skirmish Forest goblins and the 2 for 1 Gobbo Big bosses. As well as 0-1 core boar boyz. A troll champion would be cool, but I dont see it happening.

The different areas thing sounded cool, but I prefer the ability to choose blk orc bosses, orc bosses and savage orc bosses. maybe leave the Blk Orc bosses at one choice, but up the pts cost.

I'd also like more Rare choices. An infantry unit would be neat, but i can't think of anything balanced that would beat Black Orcs...

nurgle_boy
24-09-2005, 08:06
hmmm.. just my 2 cents-

make all those lovely back of the book list viable. it would make a complicated list with some troop limitations, such as squigs limited to night gobbo units, some spider riders, and other things.

the kindred idea is good.

as for mounts, id think lord level characters can take wyverns, or maybe intorduce a large monster mount on foot.
maybe different mounts for different kinds of orcs (and gobbos).
savage orcs and forest gobbos can take giant spiders, not riding spiders, but monstrous spiders.
night goblins can take riding squigs (like a squig hopper, ubut bigger, and more controll), and can take attack squigs as a wargear option
common orcs, maybe have something likea monstrous boar, like a boar, only bigger.
black orcs, maybe have something different, buit otherwise the same as common orcs.
commen gobbos... hmm... not sure.

for units, maybe, for core, like avian said, things limited by what you have, and id like to see savage orcs staying. savage orc biguns with 2hw, are imho, one of the hittyest units in the game! especially with a character!

for special, all the same choices, but squigs depend on night goblin characters/units. same maybe with black orcs.
all chariots 2-for-1 depending on other units (as said by avian) and maybe some new ones. night goblin squig chariots? sure would be interesting... savage orc chariots, spider chariots even...
boar boyz depend on your general, as avian said.
rare, id like to see pu8mpers as 2 for 1, doom divers either dropped, or made better, troll having the option of a minder (bully and gobbos maybe?), and maybe some big choice for savages, or forest gobbos, of a swamp squiggoth. stegadonesque, but just big. maybe 2 rare choices... genrals can be mounted, things like that. sort of a cros between a stank, and a stegadon, but more balenced.

finet
24-09-2005, 17:09
Bows for O&G characters? Gobbos/Shamans on Wyverns? Huge Boars? Chariots that climb walls? Ogre stuff?! :wtf: -Yeah, sure...

The things I agree with:
EvilIncarnate:

1. The Wyvern needs to have more attacks or just a drop in points
3. The magic items need to be looked over most are pointless.
5. Bring back forest goblins.

Avian:

-boar chariots 2 per special, but limited by number of orc units
A great idea!

:Xorianas

...the spider riders. This will be a great monstrous mount option for gobbo characters, too.
Well maybe they would be some kind of Monsrous Cavalry like Pegasi Knights or Deamonic Legion Bloodcrushers.

nurgle_boy:

-make all those lovely back of the book list viable. it would make a complicated list with some troop limitations, such as squigs limited to night gobbo units, some spider riders, and other things.
-id like to see pu8mpers as 2 for 1, doom divers either dropped, or made better, troll having the option of a minder (bully and gobbos maybe?)
Trolls do have a severe problem with their Ld4. I understand they're ment to fail their Stupidity test often unless guided by some hero. But it makes no sense that they run screeming away if Gobbos are fleeing past them. I'd suggest Ignore Greenskin Panic for them. Now that would make them more usable.

Other things I'd like to see:
-Heavy Armour for the Bosses
-1 Orc/Blorc Boss may ride Wyvern, It's possible in the Appendix list...
-Snotlings need the Skirmish rule, it makes sense as all the other swarms have it (except Spirit Hosts). Maybe even A4 and W4.
-Something to help hitting units with the Doom Diver. Template? I hate it when it's up to " whether it hits or not. And it would be possible to actually hit Skirmishers with it.
-Night Goblin Tunnel Team would be neat. - With few Squigs! (A rip-off from the Skaven though.)
-Error Boyz points cost the same as common Orcs. You can have Boyz with either Choppa and Light Armour or Choppa and bow.
-Fanatics are said to be too powerful. What would you think if they instead of No Armour Save had Armour Piercing?
-Bows for Gobbos. Then they would actually be able to use missile weapons more than one time per battle.
-Black Orcs could be 0-1 Core choice. Then I could finally wield more Boar Chariots or a Squig Herd at the same time. It's mandatory to have at least 2 Chukkas. :) Right?

metro_gnome
24-09-2005, 17:50
i'd like to see some less demented squig rules in a future book...

shadowprince
24-09-2005, 18:26
Don't think you guys need overly much change unit wise as i see almost every unit but tolls fielded, they should get champ leadership 6. Alfter all you guys have the second most units to choose from (chaos being first and maby skaven) Do need new magic items. not really anything character wise becuase all orc characers are absolute monsters. Oh and the spider riders back.

Taffsadar
24-09-2005, 18:32
I would like to see the choice of character affect the army selection more.

Basicly putting putting the default (any unit not mentioned would be in the same spot as before) as:

Core:
Orc boyz
Goblins
Night goblins
Orc arrer boyz

Special
Wolf riders
Squig herders
Boar Boyz (may be upgraded to big 'uns)
Black orcs
Forest Goblin
Savage orc boyz
Night goblins with fanatics
Big 'uns (boyz or savage orcs upgraded to big 'uns)

Rare
Orc chariot (2 for 1 special choice)
Goblin wolf chariot (2 for one special choice)
Savage orc boar boyz
Forest goblin spider riders

Then the choice of general would affect this.

Orc big/warboss: Boar boyz and big 'uns becomes core while orc chariots become special.

Savage orc big/warboss: Savage orc boyz becomes core, savage orc boar boyz becomes special.

Black orc big/warboss: Black orcs becomes core (but no more than 1 black orc unit for every regular orc boy/arrer boy unit).

Goblin big/warboss: Wolf riders becomes core, wolf chariots becomes special. Units led by a goblin big boss/warboss may reroll failed animosity rolls. No black orcs allowed. One goblin unit may take a magic banner worth up to 50pts.

Night Goblin big/warboss: Squig herders and night goblins with fanatics becomes core. Units led by a night goblin boss/warboss may reroll failed animosity rolls. No black orcs allowed. One night goblin unit may take a magic banner worth up to 50pts

Forest goblin big/warboss: Forest goblins becomes core, spider riders becomes core. Units led by a forest goblin boss/warboss may reroll failled animosity tests. No black orcs allowed. One goblin unit may take a banner worth up to 50pts.

This might be abit restrictivebut you get the point.

mageith
24-09-2005, 21:31
General stuff:

-Goblin Big Bosses should be 2 per slot, but no extra BBs for having all Gobbo characters
-Magic banner options for Goblins if your general is a Goblin Warlord
-Boar Boyz Core if your general is a Warboss on a boar

I agree with the first two.
I think boar boys s/b treated like every other heavy cav unit. Right now that's just core with no other restrictions. If all other heavy cav has a character restriction, then OK.

The restriction I like to see come about however is one related to core infantry. It takes one core like type infantry to support 1 core like type boar boy.

Black Orcs on Boars is OK.



-you can't have a character of a given race unless you have some units of that same race
-wolf chariots limited by number of wolf rider units
-boar chariots 2 per special, but limited by number of orc units
-minders for trolls
-pretty much all magic items reviewed
Yes.

Snotling pump wagons more readily available. Perhaps treated as a chariot varient.

I think the back of the book armies should be legalized too (after some more playtesting perhaps). Waaagh! (cross tribe Orcs) should be the rare case, not the ordinary case, IMO. Only these shouldn't be back of the book but the preferred method of fielding and O&G army. (Like vampires and Skaven).

Fanatics and Squig rules brought into line with the rest of the WFB world. If you can't give a special rule in a paragraph, it's too much. Fanatics are pretty strong but my mine problem with them is that they are just too silly. Squigs, I think, are just too expenives, especially Squig hoppers.

A mob combat rule: Orcs, Goblins and Squigs should attack and fight differently-like Barbarians. Instead of ranks, a bigger or more complicated bonus for outnumber. Let them expand frontage on the charge but give them points for outnumber (suchas +1 for each 5 Orcs or 10 Goblins (or some such number) models by which they outnumber up to +4).

Mage Ith

Niibl
24-09-2005, 22:58
Savage Orc archers should be skirmishers
while normal archers deserve light armour and shield

Savage Orc shamans should increase the Tattoo-wardsave by one
if they join a unit, just like they duid in the old edition.

You can't use the SO units properly as they are likely to charge when they should be shooting/casting.
With these changes they would have a use.

User Name
24-09-2005, 23:18
black orc boar boys

Dargon
25-09-2005, 04:50
What I'd most like to see is a mainstay system introduced, so that any characters or unique troop types must be represented by a more common unit of the same type. It makes no sense that you can do such things as have a Common Goblin Warboss leading the army without a single goblin unit in the entire army. Ideally, Orc & Goblin armies should look like a number of tribes working together, rather than an eclectic assortment of random units.

Eg. Goblin Characters or Chariots require a mob of Common Gobbos or Wolfriders... A Night Goblin Character or Squig Herd requires a Unit of Night Goblins... etc.

One Idea for such a system I was working on a while back was based on the old Chaos Retinue system. Rather than purchasing the army by individual units, the army is instead made up of "Mobs" which each count as single Core/Special choice and may be chosen with each character.

Mob lists were made up of "Common" and "Uncommon" units. At least one Common unit (or two in the case of goblins) is mandatory before a single Uncommon unit can be selected. Mobs that correspond with the General are Core, while any other Mobs are considered Special.

So for example, if the General was a Goblin Warboss, all Goblin Mobs would be Core choices, while Orc/Savage Orc/Balck Orc/Night Goblin/Spider Goblin Mobs are all considered Special choices.

A few other things I'd love to see...
* Vanillar Gobbos more distinct and less vanilla - emphasise their nature as nomads and traders more. Perhaps replace their bows with less reliable handguns and/or mount their War Machines on the back of Chariots.
* Big Un's upgrade option for Goblin/Night Goblin units.
* Monster mount for Goblin characters (just a small 3W creature like the old Giant Spiders/Scorpions will do).
* Waaagh magic reduced in potency a bit.
* Rework the Magic Items a bit.
* Goblins/Night Goblins increased by a point or so - they can take it.
* Bring back Forest Goblins! :D

Just a thought...

Dogskills
25-09-2005, 05:48
The one thing I think OaG NEED are skirmishers, the rest is fine as it is just nice to see new thingis.

EvilIncarnate
25-09-2005, 14:55
Yes O&G needs skirmishers even if snotlings became the skirmishers of the army. I would be happy.

amagi
25-09-2005, 15:57
The ideas that jump out at me as the best so far:

---Have character selection affect army composition. The suggested mainstay rule is good, where you must have units of the same type as the character. Possibly change the Core/Special/Rare status of certain units when different characters are chosen.

--Make at least one back-of-the-book list official. If you do the above suggestion, with characters affecting the army comp, then you don't necessarily need several back-of-the-book lists, as its a bit redundant, but there should still be one or two that are more radically different than the main list, with maybe some significant differences in special rules (e.g. some units skirmish in back-of-book list that don't normally, etc.).

---Less "silliness." O&G should not be a comic relief army. Give them a darker theme--after all a massive horde of murderous, slavering green barbarians should be a scary thing. It kind of ruins that when they always act in the back stories as goofy cartoon caricatures of the British underclass. Also the usual suggestions that Orcs initiate continent-wide military campaigns out of some kind of silly sense of fun is absurd. You can say that they revel in battle, but drop the happy-go-lucky Waaaghs. They should be motivated by more brutal notions of hatred for humans and desire for plunder and spoils. Get rid of the Goblin Doom Diver--it's ridiculous. Perhaps revise the Pump Wagon and Squig Herds to be more effective and less quirky.

Some minor things:
Bringing back Forest Goblins, even if only in one unit with a character option, is good. Maybe instead of being in the main list they could be in an OFFICIAL back-of-the-book list.
A new monstrous mount or two would be good. I particularly liked the idea of a Squiggoth type beast.

Avian
25-09-2005, 17:28
The one thing I think OaG NEED are skirmishers, the rest is fine as it is just nice to see new thingis.
Needing something doesn't mean that you should get it. My ogres need some decent medium-range shooting, but giving it to the army would mean it lost a lot of it's flavour.

Instead I think O&Gs need a decent way of dealing with skirmishers besides magic, which gets a bit dull.

Taldaan
25-09-2005, 18:32
Get rid of the Goblin Doom Diver--it's ridiculous.

If you're looking to make the O+Gs darker, why not replace this with a prisoner thrower? It could work kind of like the TK Screaming Skull Catapult (for obvious reasons), and the gamers could keep their old models if they wanted to.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
25-09-2005, 18:48
The Goblin Doom Diver is great, also Orcs going on warpaths and waaagh because they consider it "fun" IS, in fact, pretty scary. My warboss is perpetually angry, and I don't want o/g to be a humorless army. Right now I think that it's at an appropriate level: they don't have big dumb smiles on them but they behave in a way all too similar to high schoolers. Here's what I'd like to see:
Character selection determines what troops are in there as stated above. I think giant spiders should be a mount for both orc and goblin characters as well. Our magic items list is fine (though maybe make the 4+ ward save a talisman like every other army). I also find it ridiculous that an orc big/warboss can't bully enough guys to get a suit of heavy armor. This next suggestion might be a bit more overpowering, but maybe give orc boyz the option for great weapons? Forest goblins as a 0-1 skirmisher unit would be nice too.
Something should be done with the choppa rule. Keep it as it is and it's virtually useless as we don't get a guaranteed charge on anyone (we do get a bunch of counter charges, however) except dwarfs. If it is made to be like the 40k choppa that'd be overpowering...maybe it should just confer a -1 to armor save but doesn't modify strength?
I am totally against wolf riders becoming special, maybe there can be no more of them than there are any other type of core unit unless you have a gobbo big boss or something, but they are essential to any battle plan. Gobbo chariots should be "light chariots" that only do D3 impact hits, imo, and maybe 55 points. They can get a scythe upgrade for 10 points... Actually the list is fine as it is.

amagi
25-09-2005, 19:31
They're too silly, and the Doom Diver is an absurd concept. It's clownish and physically impossible way beyond the point of acceptable fantasy suspension of disbelief. It's a bloody slingshot that throws goblins in goofy costumes that do as much damage as real warmachines that use several-ton rocks or explosively-propelled cannonballs. It's nonsensical, and fails to show even the rudimentary respect for physics or aerodynamics that a game involving orcs and goblins should.

I don't mind the O&G having some humorous elements, but it's overboard right now.
As a rough example of something darker but still humorous, take the orcs and goblins from the LotR movies. They're definitely more viscious, nasty, and scary than the cutesy Warhammer version, but there were still comic elements, as with the infighting scene over the chainmail.

As for throwing prisoners, it's better, but I don't really think it fits either. I know that historically, dead enemy soldiers were occasionally lobbed at the enemy, but it wasn't really to do physical damage--it was psychological warfare (and it helped to spread disease, though they probably didn't know that).
I just don't like the idea of quirky, silly "gimmick" war machines like the Doom Diver, as a general rule, though I'm fine with the "experimental" Empire/Dwarf/Skaven types. (But that Dwarf axe-thrower thing is highly questionable for me, though that's partially because you have to take a special character with it...)

Trunks
26-09-2005, 01:29
Despite having alot of words to explain rules, I think that the Goblin Fanatics rules are pretty damn simple. They don't really need to be changed at all. I don't even play Orc and Goblins. They just aren't that complicated. They certainly don't need toned down either. They are such a risk that you need them to completely get rid of armor to really be worth the investment, plus they are one of the few things a night goblin horde can use to take out armored targets.

Squigs need some work because they bog down the game way too much when the "bomb explodes". When you have nine or so fanatics, it goes by quickly (and rarely are there that many on the field unless facing pure night goblins). One regiment of Squigs can release alot of little independent figures. I'd rather they stay together as one solid regiment with some quirky rules. They could all just move together a bit less controllable when all of the minders are dead (a squig swarm running across the field rather than individuals). Perhaps they could have a 50/50 chance to charge friendly troops at that point (much like failed animosity checks can force you to charge your own troops).

Squigs are the big problem with the Night Goblin arsenal.

The only real comical aspect of Orcs and Goblins at the moment is the Doom Diver and possibly the snotlings in my opinion. Snotlings aren't really "comical" but aren't very dark. I think Night Gobins have a very sinister and dark look to them, even the fanatics.

Dargon
26-09-2005, 02:24
Squigs need some work because they bog down the game way too much when the "bomb explodes".Perhaps rather than bursting into individual models, the squigs would be better off seperating into a unit of Skirmishing Squigs that move together (much simpler). In which case you could even allow the handlers (if salvagable) to attempt recapturing the Squigs :D .

Personally, I have no problems with the "sillyness" of some aspects of the army. The Doom Diver in particular shows the Goblins as kind of psychotic creatures, which puts their humour into a similar catagory to the Joker from Batman. There's an insanity to the Greenskins which is very scary - mostly it comes down to their complete lack of the ability to value life... even their own. One is left to wonder what exactly it is that Goblins are afraid of, since they feel little pain and care so little for life.

Just a thought...

amagi
26-09-2005, 03:02
Yes, in the army list itself the Doom Diver is the only really terrible offender on the silliness scale, but the Snotling Pump Wagon is somewhat whimsical too. I like Snotlings though and I don't have a problem with a Pump Wagon-esque chariot, but I think it should be tweaked, both in game terms and in style.
I guess what I really object to is the portrayal of O&G behavior in the background stories. The great majority of O&G stories I can remember are just one long tired joke, with the O&G acting like something out of a parody of a Monty Python skit. Someone above wrote that they behave like highschool kids (and they thought that was a good thing! :eyebrows: ). They should definitely be more brutal and savage, and less like slapstick juvenile delinquents.

I like the idea of Squigs breaking into a skirmishing unit instead of individual models by the way.

EvilIncarnate
26-09-2005, 05:18
I like The Doom Diver model but not that they hit the enemy like a bomb. In the fluff they first were used to scout the enmy from the sky but in the comic relief the goblins only wrote down "Weeeeeeeeeee". HAHAHA.

An idea I came up with for the doom driver is that you buy the base warmachine with one doom driver and you can buy as many more as you would like. Each turn you can lanch one (maybe two) they work just like a stone thrower with the hit and scatter dice ( a misfire the driver dies in midair) BUT it is not the point to target a unit but to get them behind the enemy line so the driver can strat to attack the enemy like a flying unit. Their attack would work like the screamer when they fly over an enemy unit they drop rocks or something and do D3 str 3 hits (something like that).

If that makes any sense.

Niibl
26-09-2005, 09:08
---Less "silliness." O&G should not be a comic relief army. Give them a darker theme--after all a massive horde of murderous, slavering green barbarians should be a scary thing. It kind of ruins that when they always act in the back stories as goofy cartoon caricatures of the British underclass. Also the usual suggestions that Orcs initiate continent-wide military campaigns out of some kind of silly sense of fun is absurd. You can say that they revel in battle, but drop the happy-go-lucky Waaaghs. They should be motivated by more brutal notions of hatred for humans and desire for plunder and spoils. Get rid of the Goblin Doom Diver--it's ridiculous. Perhaps revise the Pump Wagon and Squig Herds to be more effective and less quirky.

Bah! Amagi, you have no sense for tradition. :mad:
Follow that road and you will end up with chaos barbarians painted green.
Black Orcs are the non comical part of the race and the option to play them that way would be the SOC-list.
I don't think that you should not have this option though.
I just think it should not be the only one.
The only way for a goblin to get some gloryous shine is to burn like a comet-bright and short-and in the end he hits the ground.



Needing something doesn't mean that you should get it. My ogres need some decent medium-range shooting, but giving it to the army would mean it lost a lot of it's flavour.

Instead I think O&Gs need a decent way of dealing with skirmishers besides magic, which gets a bit dull.
Well, skirmishing, frenzy savageorc archers.
(Sorry for repeating myself but I have not used my SOs for ages)

Shimmergloom
26-09-2005, 12:17
They're too silly, and the Doom Diver is an absurd concept. It's clownish and physically impossible way beyond the point of acceptable fantasy suspension of disbelief. It's a bloody slingshot that throws goblins in goofy costumes that do as much damage as real warmachines that use several-ton rocks or explosively-propelled cannonballs. It's nonsensical, and fails to show even the rudimentary respect for physics or aerodynamics that a game involving orcs and goblins should.

I don't mind the O&G having some humorous elements, but it's overboard right now.
As a rough example of something darker but still humorous, take the orcs and goblins from the LotR movies. They're definitely more viscious, nasty, and scary than the cutesy Warhammer version, but there were still comic elements, as with the infighting scene over the chainmail.

As for throwing prisoners, it's better, but I don't really think it fits either. I know that historically, dead enemy soldiers were occasionally lobbed at the enemy, but it wasn't really to do physical damage--it was psychological warfare (and it helped to spread disease, though they probably didn't know that).
I just don't like the idea of quirky, silly "gimmick" war machines like the Doom Diver, as a general rule, though I'm fine with the "experimental" Empire/Dwarf/Skaven types. (But that Dwarf axe-thrower thing is highly questionable for me, though that's partially because you have to take a special character with it...)

:cries: :wtf:

nurgle_boy
26-09-2005, 13:01
the silliness is good, and it should stay in places but be droppen in others. as mentioned, the doom diver is a great idea, but not to effective. i like the rock dropping, but maybe it must drop rocks every turn to lighten it enough to stay in the air... so, if you swoop over one of your own units, you gotta drop one, or drop dead.

in effect, this makes doom divers like having gas... let them rip, or send them back to whence they came...

skirmishing squigs would be good. it represents the herd aspect. but damnitt, keep the comedy there!

Shimmergloom
26-09-2005, 13:52
ugh. Doom Divers have huge metal spikes on their heads and who knows how fast they hit something at when they land.

I don't care how much armor you have on, if you get hit by a 3ft long projectile with an metal spike at it's end going maybe 80-100mph, you won't be getting up. No more than you would from a rock or giant ballista bolt.

Surely a goblin doom diver is going faster than a ballista.

Further, greenskins are suppose to be colorful and fun to play. If you want, dark grim overly serious and boring armies to play, then go play chaos mortals or dark elves. And leave the fun armies alone.

EvilIncarnate
26-09-2005, 14:49
Further, greenskins are suppose to be colorful and fun to play. If you want, dark grim overly serious and boring armies to play, then go play chaos mortals or dark elves. And leave the fun armies alone.

But every army is getting darker as GW makes new books look at the brets and the Wood Elves.

zak
26-09-2005, 17:32
In my opinion GW will change O+G's character as they have done this with every other army. In most, such as the Brettonian, this worked. I think that if they did this for the O+G then a lot of the character will be lost from the army. The O+G is by far the most fun and unpredictable army in the game, and I for one hope they don't change them and lose this element.

I would like to see hvy arm for orc big 'uns and a better choice of mount for bosses. Other than that there isn't a great deal I would change. Fanatics work well and are not complicated, trolls are trolls and are stupid...if they run, they run...its all part of the fun of being an O+G player. If you play to win then play HE or similar.

Trunks
26-09-2005, 17:33
For those wanting the Doom Diver to be more "realistic", let him carry a bomb like the goblins of Bloodbowl do. Then you can't deny the destructive capabilities of a giant metal spike piercing a regiment followed by an explosion.

They'd become "Dive Bombers".

Okay . . . that was real bad . . .

Wintersdark
27-09-2005, 00:00
wow... been around a year since I've posted on a warhammer forum... where'd Portent go?

Now, I don't play greenskins anymore - sold all my old armies - but there are some things I'd like to see:

I'd like to see a darker look overall for the army, to better fit with the current direction GW is going in. Looks better. If people want a light hearted look for their greenskins, it's easy to accomplish with either just using older models or creative converting.

However, I'd like them to keep the more lighthearted fluff, and fun in the army. Greenskins are a very, very entertaining army to play, and it would be a tragedy if they lost that fun.

From a list perspective, I'd like to see:

2x1 gobbo big bosses (as per Avian) in leiu of the current system
Orc arrer boys removed or fixed in some way
Terf the doom diver - people could continue to use old ones if they like them, and just use them as stone throwers
Simplified Fanatic rules. Say what you will about them being simple in implementation, but 2+ pages is waaay too complicated for them.
No more randomly bouncing squigs. It's cool, it's fun, until a big squig herd flees, then you might as well pack up and go home, as you're going to spend WAY too much time bouncing all those squigs. Fun for you, maybe, but certainly not for your opponent. Just flee them as everything else, or simply remove them (they just bounce away) - whatever.
I'd like to see SO's skirmish, but to be fair, giving greenskins skirmishers would be grossly unfair. Greenskins have *everything* else, in spades. A lack of skirmishers is the only weakness the greenskin army has that cannot be easily countered.

amagi
27-09-2005, 06:34
Despite having written this already, I'll repeat that neither I nor anyone else suggested removing all aspects of humor/whimsy from the O&G. In fact I only want to get rid of that one infernal unit, the Doom Diver, which even the goofiness-defenders must admit is a deliberately-absurd comic relief unit.
Maybe you could make it a regiment of renown, or whatever the equivalent will be in the future, but I hope it's dropped from the army list.

More importantly, I want the stories to drop a good deal, but not all, of the silliness. The O&Gs should be significantly more savage and scary than they are, but due to their stupidity/barbarism, infighting, shamans blowing up, eating habits, blissfully indifferent tyranny over those lovable snotlings, etc. they would continue to be amusing. Thankfully, what with the trend towards greater realism in army theme, there seems to be a good chance I might get at least part of my wish.

Incidentally, I know this means nothing to those who simply must have their goofiness, but I'll just point out that the unrealistic part of the Doom Diver is not the fact that a goblin travelling at high speed causes damage--clearly it would. The problem is that a slingshot cannot throw a goblin as far and as fast as, say, a cannon shoots a cannonball, rather obviously. Actually, even if they just changed the damn thing to a conventional stone thrower, which can obviously throw very heavy objects quite far, I'd be a lot happier. Though I still wouldn't be a fan of the whole kamikaze thing. Also those silly wings would not let the goblin glide for even 10 feet. And lest anyone think that he could get more speed by being lobbed up high and then gathering speed on the way down--that's not physically possible. His max speed coming down would equal the speed the slingshot shot him up at (assuming the slingshot and the target are at the same height).

To see how it's really done, go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingsuit_flying

Niibl
27-09-2005, 08:03
The problem is that a slingshot cannot throw a goblin as far and as fast as, say, a cannon shoots a cannonball, rather obviously.

THAT is your PROBLEM(?!) :wtf:
Well, if you are a realityfreak, start whining about the kingsized weapons every model wields.


Actually, even if they just changed the damn thing to a conventional stone thrower
Sorry, just to avoid to have another dull stonethrower on the table, I can let my technical knowlege rest.
Just assume for once that it's only a game, for diversity's sake.

Of course, if the weapon could be replaced by a cannon... :cheese:
This could be the way to get the old, real, true leadbelcher back into the green army. :evilgrin:

amagi
27-09-2005, 08:23
It's like bloody clockwork. It's practically an intrinsic law of the universe. Every time someone points out that something in a fantasy game is too fantastical or physically-impossible to fit the realism level appropriate for that game, someone has to respond, as though it were an automatic reflex action, that IT'S JUST A GAME!!!! and you are obviously deranged, humorless, stupid, evil, or genocidal for suggesting that certain things should make sense.
And they're usually mad at you for suggesting it!

I'm just going to say one more thing, and then hopefully I will never discuss this matter again in my life.

It's a slingshot
that shoots goblins
with fake wings strapped on.

Think about it.

nurgle_boy
27-09-2005, 08:53
It's a slingshot
that shoots goblins
with fake wings strapped on.

Think about it.

gotta say, it makes sense to me! its a fun idea...

Shimmergloom
27-09-2005, 15:18
It's like bloody clockwork. It's practically an intrinsic law of the universe. Every time someone points out that something in a fantasy game is too fantastical or physically-impossible to fit the realism level appropriate for that game, someone has to respond, as though it were an automatic reflex action, that IT'S JUST A GAME!!!! and you are obviously deranged, humorless, stupid, evil, or genocidal for suggesting that certain things should make sense.
And they're usually mad at you for suggesting it!



If the shoe fits. Post it.

Niibl
27-09-2005, 16:54
It's like bloody clockwork. It's practically an intrinsic law of the universe. Every time someone points out that something in a fantasy game is too fantastical or physically-impossible to fit the realism level appropriate for that game, someone has to respond, as though it were an automatic reflex action, that IT'S JUST A GAME!!!! and you are obviously deranged, humorless, stupid, evil, or genocidal for suggesting that certain things should make sense.
I think that sums it up. :rolleyes:


And they're usually mad at you for suggesting it!
Nope. i am mad at you for stating the following:


a slingshot that shoots goblins with fake wings strapped on
is too silly for you to bear, while
a stonethrower that shoots goblins with fake wings strapped on is acceptable.

I don't see why you make such a fuss about such a minor differnce.
Say that you don't like the model but leave your physics at home.
BTW huge slingshots are in use and are even part of canada's border defense.
Look! (http://www.roadsideattractions.ca/slingshot.jpg)

BTW some slingshots were not that bad on punkin chunkin.
Sure, the aircannons did best.

amagi
27-09-2005, 20:48
Nope. i am mad at you for stating the following:

is too silly for you to bear, while
a stonethrower that shoots goblins with fake wings strapped on is acceptable.

I don't see why you make such a fuss about such a minor differnce.
Look! (http://www.roadsideattractions.ca/slingshot.jpg)

I don't want the stonethrower either. But it would make marginally more sense.
Actually, they do have those "human slingshot" amusement park rides, but those are more like bungee jumping.

It's bizarre to me that some of you can pretend that you need to bring in some esoteric, narrowly technical advanced physics to figure out that the thing doesn't make sense. I'm sure that you actually possess the rudimentary common sense to figure that out for yourselves, but you're just stubbornly defending it because you are fond of it. You feel like I'm on a mission to ruin your fun.

Just to stress this one more time, it's the general theme of the O&G that I want to see move slightly towards a darker realism. The background stories, artwork, and miniature design are far more important to this than the stupid Doom Diver--it was just the most obvious example of goofiness in the army list itself.
Anyway, my halfling swan riders could take out your flying goblins any day. Even the 5th edition doom diver, where there was supposedly an infinite number of goblins standing next to the thing for ammo.

truthsayer
27-09-2005, 21:14
Wow that doom diver conversation went on and off ver 3 pages!

Anyway back to orcs and gobbo's, i would like to see some sort of mainstay theme going on tied in with the lord choice. I like the sound of the improved ward save granted when a savage orc shaman joins a savage orc unit.

I would like to see a darker side of orcs when they are dealing with the enemy, but the humorous orc/gobbo relationship between themselves should stay too.

What would be really good though is if they put doom divers on chariots as core choices but as a downside they suffer from the intrigue at court rule... now that would be good! ;) :p :rolleyes:

gondarion
27-09-2005, 21:36
There has been alot of discussion about bringing in stuff from the ogre kingdoms army. That is a bad idea in my view, each army should have a unique identity.

I do really like some of the ideas presented here, like armour piercing for fanatics, and ignore greenskin panic for trolls. The idea of squigs becoming one skirmishing unit after they get away from the handlers is ingenious, and the idea of the handlers chasing after them is even more so :D . This is an interesting discussion, partly due to the fact that orcs+goblins are pretty well set, it doesn't seem like the army list itself could use to many changes, although the models certainly could.

StormCrow
28-09-2005, 08:19
Just to stress this one more time, it's the general theme of the O&G that I want to see move slightly towards a darker realism. The background stories, artwork, and miniature design are far more important to this than the stupid Doom Diver--it was just the most obvious example of goofiness in the army list itself.


i dont think darker REALISM is necessary (it is a fantasy setting after all), nor do i think all races need to be made darker. races like the O&G seem to have a fairly positive outlook on life (they own half the world and live for war) and so i think it should be reflected in their presentation. and i think you're being a bit podantic about the doom diver, because if there was ever a race capable of breaking the laws of physics and aerodynamics it was the goblins. but seriously it is just a game, and i think we react to your realist opinions with this comment because you should leave them at the door when discussing a fantasy tabletop game.

Avian
28-09-2005, 12:25
Other suggestions:
-price of bows go down (quite) a bit, price of wizards, wolf chariots and spear chukkas go up a bit
- weapon upgrades for orc infantry go down to 1 pt, big 'un upgrade go up to 3 points

Sinew
28-09-2005, 13:33
I reckon the list would work pretty well if 7th ed does something about bows (of all types), stupidity, chariots, heavy cavalry, creatures on ogre sized bases in general, magic and hw/shield. This would make the army lists more varied and improve the two troop types I think perform worst; Trolls and Arrer boyz.

I don't think O&G need any new troop types at all - there are enough all ready! I certainly don't think goblins need diversifying any more. When there is a new troop type it has to have different rules/options to make it distinct, and then these have to be costed. Either the original or the new variant is usually more competitive and so the other type gets dropped. So for those who want Forest Goblins just use the Common Goblin rules. And why are skirmishing Goblins a unit we so badly need?

I want to be able to field an Orc army which isn't reliant on magic, doesn't take any artillery, still has a shooting phase, contains not a single chariot and has a large monstrous contingent. However, I also want my Greenskin brethren to be able to field a magic heavy, artillery laden, rickety-chariot supported army. I want both of us to be able to deck out our characters with items that don't make us cringe with embarrassment when reading them out to the opponent.

Background wise I'd like it if O&G were fiercer, but I couldn't give a toss as long as the rules get tightened up and the army is even more fun to play with. A wise man once said to me: "It's just fluff, you can ignore it."

amagi
28-09-2005, 15:03
I agree with everything Sinew just said, save the part about the Forest Goblins. He's right that if they improve the effectiveness of some of the poorer units and rules, than the O&G will already have a good amount of options--enough to field armies that play significantly different to each other, which is probably near the top of the list of the most important aspects of an army. One of the biggest problems in Warhammer right now are the lists that don't allow for varied playing strategies or army types--Bretonnia and Dwarfs being the two most infamous examples of this. To various degrees though most armies suffer from this problem. The new Wood Elf list does a good job of allowing variety (though I do think they screwed up in not making an all-tree creature army a very effective or attractive option), and it looks like the upcoming Dwarf list takes steps to improve this, so hopefully we can be optimistic about the O&G on this issue.

Still, I think the O&G could really use a/some sufficiently distinct, official back-of-the-book list/lists. There are so many possibilities for variant O&G lists. A new unit or two could be included in there, just as the Southlands Lizardmen list has new units. I like the Spider Riders and I think they would fit well in such a list (maybe a Savage Orc/Forest Goblin list? or whatever).

And yes I really want the O&G to be a bit fiercer in theme, but this is secondary to the game rules.

Shimmergloom
28-09-2005, 17:32
There has been alot of discussion about bringing in stuff from the ogre kingdoms army. That is a bad idea in my view, each army should have a unique identity.

I do really like some of the ideas presented here, like armour piercing for fanatics, and ignore greenskin panic for trolls. The idea of squigs becoming one skirmishing unit after they get away from the handlers is ingenious, and the idea of the handlers chasing after them is even more so :D . This is an interesting discussion, partly due to the fact that orcs+goblins are pretty well set, it doesn't seem like the army list itself could use to many changes, although the models certainly could.

Why is it a bad idea?

orges already stole goblins(that's all gnoblars are. goblins with S2 and sharp stuff), giants and ogres themselves, who were taken out of our list to get their own army.

If ogres get to scrounge from our list to get units to fill out their list, cause GW was out of ideas, then fair is fair, let us greenskins have out gnoblar brethren in our army.

If chaos gets to use 3 armies to mix and match for their armies, then there should be a rule that all greenskins in other armies are allowed to join in a true Waaagh!

nurgle_boy
28-09-2005, 17:41
exactly! we need all the greenies for a waaaagh...

thats hobbos, gnobbos, gobbos, nobbos, fobbos, fkobolds, trogs, hillgobs, orcs, sorcs, borcs, buguns, sbiguns, bosses, shamans, and evrything inbetween.

also, some explanation of the part in the empire book, to the south of the map, where it reads 'winged goblins'.

EvilIncarnate
28-09-2005, 18:36
There is no reason to have gnoblars in the O&G list. They fill no role that regular goblins can't do. There is no reason to include everything from the Ogre list just because you want it in the O&G list.

Gnoblars fill a very important role in the Ogre army by having a unit with ranks and just a cheap unit to help fill in the Ogre battleline.

Strictly Commercial
28-09-2005, 19:00
One idea I think would be cool is some kind of system that whips Orcs up into a powerhouse as the battle progresses - the power of the Waaaaggghhh!!! made manifest. So, say there are a list of cool things that could happen, like units getting kills, magic going off in many of its wondrous ways, etc. Eventually all Orcs or maybe just some Orcs get a bonus to their abilities after conditions are met. It might be difficult to find a way to balance it for different army sizes (a 4000 point game where every Orc suddenly gets a boost might need balancing out a bit) but I can think of little that is more Orc than that.

foehammer888
28-09-2005, 19:48
I believe in the idea of a darker, more realistic O&G army. It could still be funny, but in a "Kill Bill" style of funny, which is still kind of dark and violent, but funny since it is so over-the-top at times.

However, I believe the doom diver could still fit into this equation, with some slight tweaks to rules and in particular the model.

1) right now it looks like a Denis the Menace style sling shot. Make it more basic. Have two stakes hammered into the ground, with a string of troll gutts/animal intestines strung between them (not something that looks like a rubber band, make it gory).

2) loose the wings on the doom diver. Keep the large pointy hat, but make it barbed and evil looking. In fact, give him barbed, sharp-looking armor like the armor on the moria goblins in LOTR. He is a living projectile.

3) give it a troll as part of the crew. Use the troll to pull back the "rubber band".

4) Rule-wise, give it a range, as the goblin is no longer flying, and make it do a stone thrower or bolter thrower like hit.


The problem is, without unlimited range, this thing doesn't really have the potential to be more than a stone thrower or bolt thrower. In my opinion, the orc and goblin list suffers from something few other armies suffer from to the same extent, they have many fluffy units that everyone loves, but they have a hard time giving each unit a niche in the army list. The doom diver is a prime example. It is why, other than spider riders, I really don't want to see the O&G list get more units. I want the current units perfected. Right now I would love to face a O&G army that isn't the SOC list.

As for the general/units idea, i think the Orc and goblin list could take a page from the chaos books. Have "orc" units and "goblin" units, as well as destinctive special and rare units (like trolls, giants, snotlings, stone throwers, maybe even black orcs etc.). Then have it so an orc general means you can take orc units as core, and goblin units are special, and the other way around. In addition, maybe each character of the other race allows one unit of that race to be a core unit.

Example:

Orc General: orcs are core, goblins are special
2 goblin shamans: 2 Goblin units may be taken as core units.


Foehammer

EvC
28-09-2005, 21:09
I think maybe a smarter way of doing it would be to keep orc and goblin regulars as core units, but just say they don't count towards the core minimum requirements. Who's going to include a unit of pathetic little gobbos if it's costing a special slot?

foehammer888
28-09-2005, 23:36
I liked the idea because it motivated people to be smart about choosing their orc and goblin characters, and fit the whole "gathering of warbands" idea.

For instance, if there was an orc warlord gathering for a WAAAAAAAAGH! , he could take all orc units as core. They would represent his boys. However, if he wanted some goblins, he would have to bully all of them into joining his band, which is a lot of work as there are 20-40 of them in a unit. He might have to bash 3-4 or their heads in before they listened. Thus, they are special (ie harder to get). However, if the army also included a goblin shamman, the orc warlord could simply bully the shamman into bringing some gobbos to the battlefield. Thus, the non-general goblin character allows one goblin unit to be taken as core.

It might be cool to divide the whole army up into more than just orc and goblin. Orc, Savage Orc, Goblin, Night Goblin.

Yes, who would take goblins if they are a special choice? But, they are only special if you take no goblin characters. Also, it isn't so bad that they are a special choice if Orc Boar Boys and Orc Chariots (both of which are normally special) are core because you have an orc general.

Foehammer

zak
29-09-2005, 09:11
I think the idea above has some merit, but will be open to abuse. If I want to take an all Orc army then does that mean that all Orc units will be core? If so I can create a very powerful mounted army of boarboyz and chariots, where at present I'm limited by the army selection. Also does this mean I can have an all Black Orc army with just Black Orc characters?

Sinew
29-09-2005, 12:04
Goblins as special? Are you guys serious? This is so not the way to go. The Orc and Goblin army is varied and to add in a Chaos army selection system would mean even more units become unfielable or only fielded in certain army builds because the character you needed to get the unit is a point sink or vice versa.

I like the idea in general that fighting characters allow the army some options which wizards don't give it, as currently I think most armies in warhammer suffer from the fact that it is almost always a better buy to take a wizard than a hero. However I think this should be manifested in moving some special/rare units down into the core, or only allowing big uns in an army led by a Warboss or the like. In all honesty I can't see an Orc army led by a Shaman but that's another story.


One idea I think would be cool is some kind of system that whips Orcs up into a powerhouse as the battle progresses - the power of the Waaaaggghhh!!!I like this idea and the best way I see of doing it would be if they changed the magic list for Orcs. Admittedly I'm hoping for a general magic overhawl in 7th ed, but I think even if they left the system the same they could do some work on the Orc lore. Currently both lists are amazing, but the emphasis (as with so many lores) is on blasty magic. There should be one or two offensive spells but I want to see a lot more enhancement spells, i.e. ones that make units faster, harder, cause fear etc, and if these were cumulative or related to how many other Orc units were nearby so much the better.

foehammer888
29-09-2005, 13:09
Easy guys, I just throw in the beginnings of an idea... something to build upon. If you take an idea that seems rediculous at first and just dismiss it away, you will never see it's true potential. It's a hell of alot harder to think about why it wouldn't work and fix it than just say "that's crap".

What if it was somewhat similar to 40k space wolves? Say, for instance, they had normal core, special, and rare units, but were still divided into "orcs", "goblins", and "other".

Other units would always be available.

Each lord level character allows you to take, say 750 points of units from that particular unit type (ie an orc warlord would allow you to take 750 points of orcs).

Each hero level character would allow you to take 500 points of that particular unit type. (a goblin hero let you take 500 points of goblins).


Another Idea I had was to give a O&G a force organization chart based upon characters rather than army totals. A goblin hero, for instance, would require you to take 1 core goblin unit, but would allow you to take 1 or 2 special goblin units. An orc lord would require you to take 2 orc core units, but would allow 2 orc special units and 1 orc rare unit.

I just don't like the idea of having armies with say, goblin units and no goblin characters, or orc characters but no orc units.

Foehammer

Sinew
29-09-2005, 13:29
Are you suggesting this as part of a general change to army list selection in Warhammer, or just for Orcs and Goblins?

mageith
29-09-2005, 14:20
Are you suggesting this as part of a general change to army list selection in Warhammer, or just for Orcs and Goblins?
Rudiments of it already exist is Skaven, Chaos, VC and even Lizards & TK to an extent. I think it's a natural for O&G.

Goblins as special would work, especially if the presence of infantry was somehow tied to the war machines. but even w/o Goblins a mainstay rule, Goblins are very cost effective under the current rules and who'd leave home w/o fanatics??

And Goblins would only be special in Orc led armies. And Orc led armies would have boar boyz and boyz as core, probably black orcs and orc chariots too.

The Waaagh! option would still be available like Undivided is with Chaos.

Mage Ith

Sinew
29-09-2005, 14:45
Rudiments of it already exist is Skaven, Chaos, VC and even Lizards & TK to an extent. I think it's a natural for O&G.True, but I wouldn't say these have totally been a positive thing. Particularly in the case of Chaos I think their army selection procedure smacks of a good idea not sufficiently well playtested - hence you can have armies composed almost entirely of chariots. I don't object to another system being implemented (though I think the Characters,Core,Special,Rare system works well and is not the source of army selection problems) but I would want to see it as part of a change to the core rules rather than something specific to Orcs and Goblins. I agree with previous posters that it is silly to be able to include one Black Orc character in an otherwise Goblin army, but I don't want to not be able to field Black Orcs because I refuse to buy the Bigboss and sacrifice two hero choices for example.

Goblins are very cost effective under the current rulesTrue, but I'd favour addressing that as the concern rather than changing the army selection rules.

who'd leave home w/o fanatics??Me :cool: guess you always get a few weirdo's in every bunch ya know? I always found them a waste of time, plus I don't like the bumbling cuddly fun-loving image of O&G they represent. In addition I agree with your views on other threads that their rules are too clunky. I wouldn't get Special Night Goblins even for the fanatics.

Orc led armies would have boar boyz and boyz as core, probably black orcs and orc chariots tooI really wouldn't want to see this. I hate the idea of armies wholly composed of fast hitty units like chariots and heavy cav. Even if they tone down their effectiveness I'll never like the look of an army all made of chariots, especially an Orc army.

Potentially there is another thread in this: should WFB drop the Characters/Core/Special/Rare sytsem in favour of one based on the Chaos model - with unlimited troops of the same type as the general and then limited support options dependent on what other characters you take.

mageith
29-09-2005, 14:59
I really wouldn't want to see this. I hate the idea of armies wholly composed of fast hitty units like chariots and heavy cav. Even if they tone down their effectiveness I'll never like the look of an army all made of chariots, especially an Orc army.

I have mixed feelings on an all chariot army. I've never actually seen one in action, so not sure how it would work.

Since chaos has a precedent, it's likely that other armies might get them too.

The other way to go is to include a mainstay rule with a unit infantry to support every other choice. (One infantry would support one of everything else, for example).



Potentially there is another thread in this: should WFB drop the Characters/Core/Special/Rare sytsem in favour of one based on the Chaos model - with unlimited troops of the same type as the general and then limited support options dependent on what other characters you take.

The core/special/rare division still exists in chaos, it's just changed. I thought it would make chaos too strong when it first came out, but apparently chaos costs are so high, this hasn't happened.

Mage Ith

amagi
29-09-2005, 15:03
I think the point is that some system of tying army composition to character selection would benefit the O&G. If we could agree on that than the rest is just details.
Most Warhammer armies would benefit greatly from this.
The Chaos system is terrific in this regard, but I don't think every army needs as drastic a scheme as that. Not that I'd object to it for one or two of them. The Wood Elves really should have gotten a better system for allowing tree-creature armies. I can't believe they let an all tree-creature army turn out to be at least as limited as a non-SoC all deamon army.

Take Vampire Bloodlines. Or Wood Elf Kindreds. Or High Elf honours or whatever they're called. These are great for customizing your characters but they have little effect on the army composition in general, beyond the basic differences that arise from building a magic character vs. a combat one, a mounted character vs. one on foot, etc.
A Von Carstein army is often exactly the same as a Strigoi army, the only difference being that the characters function a bit differently.
The same is true of an army led by an Orc vs. one led by a Goblin.
This should be addressed.

Avian
29-09-2005, 15:29
but I don't want to not be able to field Black Orcs because I refuse to buy the Bigboss and sacrifice two hero choices for example.
My idea was to require a unit of a given race if you wanted to include characters of that race, but not vice-versa. So you can have a Black Orc unit without a Black Orc character, but you could not have any Black Orc characters without any Black Orc units.

Additionally, if such a requirement was introduced, you might say that Black Orc characters only take additional Hero slots if they are mounted, like in the 'Ard Boyz list.



So basically:

Black Orc Warboss
-has Quell Animosity
-takes up an additional Hero choice if mounted
-you must include a Black Orc unit to have any Black Orc characters

Orc Warboss
-if General & mounted on a Boar, Orc Boar Boyz become a Core unit, instead of Special
-you must include at least one unit of Orcs (Boyz, Arrer Boyz or Boar Boyz) to have any Orc characters

Savage Orc Warboss
-if General & mounted on a Boar, Savage Orc Boar Boyz become a Core unit, instead of Special
-you must include at least one unit of Savage Orcs (Boyz or Boar Boyz) to have any Savage Orc characters

Common Goblin Warboss
-if General, one unit of Common Goblins may carry a magic standard worth up to 50 pts
-you must include at least one unit of Common Goblins (infantry or Wolf Riders) to have any Common Goblin characters

Night Goblin Warboss
-if General, one unit of Night Goblins may carry a magic standard worth up to 50 pts
-you must include at least one unit of Night Goblins to have any Night Goblin characters

gondarion
29-09-2005, 15:30
Hmm,this is a very good idea in theory, but really needs some ironing out. The fact that you can take an entire army of chariots in a chaos army is such a colossal blunder of games design that it almost merits a re-write of both chaos books on its own. It would be just awful if the same happened to O+G, due to their ability to take two different types of chariots en masse (I know its mostly one or the other, but still...).

Chariots are a special case in warhammer, as they're the only unit, in my opinion, that is broken or not broken depending purely on amount fielded. Normally, restrictions are not the answer, but in this case they are. Therefore, I'd like to see every army (with the exception of tomb kings) have more restrictions on the fielding of chariots. If they're core, they shouldn't count to core minimums, and you shouldn't be able to field more than the core minimum number. If they're special, just make them 0-2 to 0-4, depending on if they're 2 for 1, or 1 for 1.

foehammer888
29-09-2005, 16:12
Army composition works well as is for most armies, but there are a few which need adjustments, mostly because the armies represent amalgamations of several warbands, such as chaos and O&G. Dwarves, elves, empire, only have one race in the list, so the standard force organization chart works fine.

I like the mainstay unit idea. Rather than having standard army list, have it divide into "race" pages like the one below.

ORC PAGE

Lords (2xmainstay)
Orc Warlord
Orc Shaman Lord

Heroes (1xmainstay)
Orc Big Boss
Orc Shammon

Core (*mainstay units)
Orc Boys
Orc Arrer Boys

Special (1xmainstay)
Orc Boar Boys
Orc Chariot
...

And have similar pages for savage orcs, black orcs, goblins, night goblins.

So, to take an orc warlord, you must have 2 Orc units. To take a black orc hero, you would have to have at least one black orc unit in the army (black orc units would still be special however. This could probably result in them doing away with black orcs taking 2 hero slots, as a unit is required to take them.

Of course, adjustments would have to be made. A black orc warboss might only need 1 black orc unit for example. But it's a start.

Foehammer

Avian
29-09-2005, 16:32
I think that's just a bit too complicated, considering that it's not uncommon for a greenskin army to contain characters of three (or more) races.

Moe
29-09-2005, 16:39
Personally I don't want to see any troop choices limited by characters, or vice versa, at least not in the O&G list. They had that in 4th/5th edition, and if you really wanted the character of the type, you would just take a minimum sized unit of the race to allow you to take the character (If you wanted a Goblin Level 4 Shaman, just take a unit of Gobbos for 40 pts, or whatever they cost back then). Regardless of what characters you have, regular Orcs and Gobbo infantry should be Core. Throughout all Fantasy editions they have been the backbone of Greenskin Armies.

Fluffwise, I see no reason why an Orc could not lead any all Goblin Army, or vice versa. Heck at one time they encouraged Goblin units to have Orc characters in them to lead them (I don't think you see that much anymore). Sometimes I use a Savage Orc Warboss in my army, even though I have no savage orc units, just because I like the idea of my Greenskins being led by a Lunatic (even though having 1 frenzied character is generally not good...)

I guess I'm in the minority but I like the current O&G selections as they stand(mabye with a few changes). You still have to put a lot of thought into your selections. However, I do think they should make the appendix lists at the back of the book legal lists, modifying them as necessary (I think someone mentioned this already). I think that would be a much better solution then if you take character X, you get these benefits, but have these penalties, or if you want this unit as core, take this character, etc.

John

Avian
29-09-2005, 16:58
If you wanted a Goblin Level 4 Shaman, just take a unit of Gobbos for 40 pts, or whatever they cost back then
12.5 pts ;)


Incidentally, what you are describing is exactly the kind of practice I want to disallow. :p

foehammer888
29-09-2005, 17:03
I think that's just a bit too complicated, considering that it's not uncommon for a greenskin army to contain characters of three (or more) races.

It's too complicated? It's actually simpler than chaos unit selection, and is almost an exact copy of Skaven unit selection.

It's true that many O&G armies have characters from 3 difference "races", but how many of those armies don't have units from those specific races? Savage orcs seems to be the biggest exception i can think of, and I believe that could be solved by simply having a plastic unit box set for them. People don't have units of them because buying a 20 strong unit of metal savage orcs is not cost effective for how much they cost points-wise.

There is probably a better way than the one I listed above, but i don't like the "any unit of that race" way of thinking. Then we would have people taking bolt throwers simply to include goblin characters.

O&G armies come together when several warbands gather and the biggest/most powerful guy takes command. I just want armies that reflect this. Having a black orc lead a goblin army just seems wrong. All O&G fluff shows a great deal of resentment between the different O&G races (besides snotlings, trolls, etc, which are not smart enough to realize they are different from everyone else), so why would a black orc stoop to leading a goblin army, when he should be leading "a horde a da boyz as Gork wud want it!"

Now if that army contains a black orc unit, it seems that the general an his boys came across the weedy goblins and decided that the little buggers needed some true leaders.

Foehammer

Wintersdark
29-09-2005, 17:04
I honestly wouldn't want to see any restrictions on what you can take race-wise based on your general.

A large part of the joy of greenskins is having a HUGE army selection to play with. This isn't abused - In my experience, you don't see many rediculous army compositions resulting.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Rather, I'd like to see various bonuses for being "racist" - basically, some bonus to fielding an all-orc army, or all-forest-goblin, for example. Throw a bone to people making themed armies, as it where.

foehammer888
29-09-2005, 17:06
12.5 pts ;)


Incidentally, what you are describing is exactly the kind of practice I want to disallow. :p

Which is why I liked the idea of requiring 2 mainstay units for a lord choice. With the current army list, the player would need 2 20 strong units of goblins to take the Goblin Shaman lord. He may be powerful, but he would still need enough muscle to back him up when he tried to take command, or some brawny orc would just bite his head off.

Foehammer

Moe
29-09-2005, 17:26
I honestly wouldn't want to see any restrictions on what you can take race-wise based on your general.

A large part of the joy of greenskins is having a HUGE army selection to play with. This isn't abused - In my experience, you don't see many rediculous army compositions resulting.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Rather, I'd like to see various bonuses for being "racist" - basically, some bonus to fielding an all-orc army, or all-forest-goblin, for example. Throw a bone to people making themed armies, as it where.

Thank you Wintersdark, you summed up what I was trying to say perfectly! I think as you say, giving a simple bonus for choosing a themed army would be fine (just like they have now for Gobbos, all gobbo characters gives you an extra gobbo big boss).

amagi
29-09-2005, 17:27
A large part of the joy of greenskins is having a HUGE army selection to play with. This isn't abused - In my experience, you don't see many rediculous army compositions resulting.Regardless of what type of character you pick, you'd still have all the same troop options. It's just that the ratio of which troops are more common than others would change. This makes more sense, allows for more variety in playing styles (as with certain characters you could make troop combinations that you otherwise couldn't), and adds more depth and character to the theme of the army.

foehammer888
29-09-2005, 17:53
I would basically love to see any changes made to the O&G army list, and to all army lists in general, which would emphasize the basic Infantry unit. There are exceptions of course, like brettonians who should have mostly cavalry. I always envision orc armies as they are in the fluff... huge teeming tides of green moving across the horizon. However, as a dwarf player, many of the games i play against O&G are against armies that have the minimum number of standard orc and goblin units required. The rest of the list is crammed full of as many big'uns, black orcs, trolls, and boar boys as the point value would allow.

It got worse when the Gimgor's Ardboys list was released for SOC. Rather than having teeming hordes, O&G armies are small elite strike forces, with the fighting abilities of chaos warriors but at a lower cost.

The strangest thing is, while there are many armies against which lists like this are effective, they fail horribly against my dwarves, as there are very few targets that my artillery and shooting can concentrate on and annihilate.


Foehammer

mooze
29-09-2005, 18:36
Make boar boyz core. Most every army has a heavy cav. core why not o/g? other than working over the magic items I like them as they are.As far as pitiful, poorly modeled,afterthought gnoblars, you ogre players can keep them!the gobbos look good as they are, it would be a shame to exchange them for those awful gnoblar models.

Wintersdark
29-09-2005, 18:37
I would basically love to see any changes made to the O&G army list, and to all army lists in general, which would emphasize the basic Infantry unit. There are exceptions of course, like brettonians who should have mostly cavalry. I always envision orc armies as they are in the fluff... huge teeming tides of green moving across the horizon. However, as a dwarf player, many of the games i play against O&G are against armies that have the minimum number of standard orc and goblin units required. The rest of the list is crammed full of as many big'uns, black orcs, trolls, and boar boys as the point value would allow.

Strange, really. I played greenskins for years, and I found the most success (many, many top-5 rankings at GT's) with a horde of core greenskins.

I typically, in 2000 points, fielded 3 units of 35 night goblins, 3 units of 25 common goblins, 2 units of 24 orcs and 1 unit of 24 biguns.


No black orc units, no trolls, no boar boys.

It's tempting to do that - to take lots of the bigger stuff, but it doesn't work as well as a well played infantry greenskin list - not anywhere near as well.

I beat EVERY greenskin list I played against, every single time, when they fielded "big stuff" lists. Easily. It's just not as good.


Still, shouldn't force people to change it - if they want to play a crappy list, let them :)

Bingo the Fun Monkey
29-09-2005, 18:45
Call me biased, but I don't think the list is too strong in any way and most people don't play out of character (blorc big boss leading night gobbos). A problem I have is wanting to take everything in the list which leads me to have having two of each of the core types and one of everything else within restrictions. Anyways I think O/G are a perfectly balanced list...however, it'd be nice to have skirmishers and, dare I say it, scouts? Also more monstrous mounts like giant spiders for gobbos and orcs, a giant wolf (wolf elder?) for gobbos, a boss pig for orcs? I don't know, but a lot of fun can be had.

Wintersdark
29-09-2005, 18:50
heh of course you want skirmishers and scouts... and you shouldn't get them.

As it is, other than their absense, greenskins have NO weakness that cannot be countered by careful list making.

The absence of skirmishers is significant and should NOT change.

gondarion
29-09-2005, 19:39
One idea I had was to up the minimum unit size for any unit of footslogging orcs or goblins to 20. That way, the horde aspect would HAVE to be emphasized. I do realize that is how most orc players play anyway, I just think it is a nice, fluffy add-on.

I think the list is fine, except I'd like to see something done about greenskin magic. It is too good for the price. Either up the cost of all shamans a decent amount, tone down the spells a little bit, or both. Spear Chukkas are also insanely cheap; you can get three for the price of a single elf repeater, give or take 5 points. And I really hope they place more restrictions on chariots in future lists.

foehammer888
29-09-2005, 20:57
Make boar boyz core. Most every army has a heavy cav. core why not o/g? other than working over the magic items I like them as they are.As far as pitiful, poorly modeled,afterthought gnoblars, you ogre players can keep them!the gobbos look good as they are, it would be a shame to exchange them for those awful gnoblar models.

I mean nothing personal by this, but that is really poor reasoning for including a unit. It's like elves asking for a T4 core unit because lots of other armies have T4 core units. The point may be a valid one (lots of armies do have T4 core units) but that doesn't mean elves should get one.

The core of most O&G armies are basic orc boys and goblins. A rare few Orcs are

1) bigger and stronger, being big'uns
2) of the black orc breed
3) able to tame and ride a boar

Just because you can envision an army of all boar mounted orcs doesn't mean they should make rules to make your vision reality.


Strange, really. I played greenskins for years, and I found the most success (many, many top-5 rankings at GT's) with a horde of core greenskins.

I typically, in 2000 points, fielded 3 units of 35 night goblins, 3 units of 25 common goblins, 2 units of 24 orcs and 1 unit of 24 biguns.


No black orc units, no trolls, no boar boys.

It's tempting to do that - to take lots of the bigger stuff, but it doesn't work as well as a well played infantry greenskin list - not anywhere near as well.

I beat EVERY greenskin list I played against, every single time, when they fielded "big stuff" lists. Easily. It's just not as good.


Still, shouldn't force people to change it - if they want to play a crappy list, let them

I agree that using the standard horde army usually works well, but I don't agree with letting people play crappy lists. The entire purpose of any army list is to incline people towards successful lists while maintaining the character of the army and giving players as much flexibility as possible. If you look at 40k armies, you really have to try pretty hard to deviate far from the designers "vision" of the list. This is done by careful use of point values and unit restrictions.

I don't want people to make crappy lists, cause then

1) there will be little challenge for me, thus I will get bored
2) there is no satisfaction for them, they will not enjoy the hobby, and will likely quit


heh of course you want skirmishers and scouts... and you shouldn't get them.

As it is, other than their absense, greenskins have NO weakness that cannot be countered by careful list making.

The absence of skirmishers is significant and should NOT change.

Many armies are sculpted by what types of units they don't have access to. Wood elves is a prime example... they have almost no rank-and-file infantry. Dwarves have no fast units or magic users. O&G have never been like that however. They have a unit that can fill almost any role a player can possibly imagine. They have light cavalry, heavy shock cavalry, heavy infantry, light infantry, artillery. The O&G army has always been defined by the unreliability of the units themselves.

Skirmishers, i personally don't think you need them. They often serve as missile screens, a role cheap goblin units fulfill well. Scouts? They have a core unit that is movement 9 and costs something like 10 points a model? do they really need more than that?

Foehammer

warwizard_99
29-09-2005, 21:23
It is too good for the price. Either up the cost of all shamans a decent amount, tone down the spells a little bit, or both. Spear Chukkas are also insanely cheap; you can get three for the price of a single elf repeater, give or take 5 points. And I really hope they place more restrictions on chariots in future lists.

I disagree.

The issue with Orc magic is their Miscast chart. I agree that it is one of, if not the strongest in the game, but they tone it back with having the special chart for miscasts.

Also, Spear Chukka's are cheap because they are BS 3, hitting almost everything on 5's, at range. They require numbers, so they can hit! On the upside, Big Waagh magic assists in this, but again, you risk the nastiest miscast chart in the game.

As for chariots, only Chaos has Core chariots, and my reasoning it they die to anything str 7, which is in abundance in WFB. If they aren't hit by a Stone thrower, do multi wounds with the Chukka's. If not with chukka's, they die quickly to fanatics...etc.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
29-09-2005, 22:44
I don't want skirmishers because of a weakness, but I don't see any other function or role that forest goblins (who would be wonderful models) could fill. Wolf riders serve the same function just as well if not better than skirmishers, and cost cheaper.

Avian
30-09-2005, 09:05
One idea I had was to up the minimum unit size for any unit of footslogging orcs or goblins to 20. That way, the horde aspect would HAVE to be emphasized. I do realize that is how most orc players play anyway, I just think it is a nice, fluffy add-on.
That would hurt the 'Ard Boyz list, who have a problem with getting support units, and not really make any difference in other cases.

EvilIncarnate
30-09-2005, 17:52
Goblins are already min 20 for the unit.