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Easy E
23-09-2005, 22:00
What criteria would have to be met for a corrupt Imperial Commander to successfully break away from the Imperium?

For example, what requirements would have to be met for the Imperium to not even both tryign to regain the planet?

If the Imperium tries to regain the planet, what criteria would have to be met for them to stop trying?

I would like to hear political, cultural, and military criteria.

Asher
23-09-2005, 22:06
The only way to really become separated from the imperium for a long time, is that they forget about you. It tends to happen that planets are devastated, because their call for help gets lost in the imperial burocarcy and is often aswered centuries to late, if ever.
The planet would have to be of minor importace and fairly remonte and isolated.
It also would help to be separated by peacefull means to keep a low profile.
Still, being away form the imperium makes the planet even more vulneralbe to alien and chaos threats, so the planet wont last too long.

Kage2020
23-09-2005, 22:49
Some quick 'throw away' responses since it since the post presents wide open questions, as well Easy E knows (dang you! ;))...


What criteria would have to be met for a corrupt Imperial Commander to successfully break away from the Imperium?
My first thought would be why the Imperial Commander would have to be corrupt? Surely that is not a mark of distinction or somehow unusual in the Imperium? Arguably it is the norm, i.e. "Only the insane have the strength to prosper, and only the prosperous truly judge what is sane."

One obviously has to define what one means by 'successful'. For example, breaking away merely requires a statement of intent to do so. Assuming that the individual is successful, the statement is sufficient in and of itself to represent intent to break away.

Of course, then there are the supposedly 'loyal' members of the adeptus terra and other parts of the 'Imperial conclave' (as I like to look at it; e.g. the Imperium is essentially parasitic unless otherwise integrated into the government). Depending on the nature of the world, this could be a sizeable problem. (E.g. Any garrisoned Guard units or other military resources, Inquisitorial units, paramilitary resources such as the adeptus arbites, etc.) Of course, you would also have to repress the Astropathic Choir on the world, or make sure that it is loyal. Even then you're going to have to try and figure out a way of making sure that the Astropathic Network doesn't notice that the world has 'dropped out'.

If you manage to repress or subvert Imperial elements and repress any call for 'help', then that might also be deemed a success. Of course, after that you're going to have to worry about any merchant or civil traders that come into the system. Depending on their nature they may automatically report the situation and, if you are to believe the 4E 'fluff' (which I don't), all ships automatically have both a Navigator and an Astropath on board. That means that you would have to destroy or otherwise neutralise ships (preferably the latter), in which case it is likely going to come to the attention of the Imperial authorities.

Then you have the tithe. You're likely going to come to the Imperium eventually when you haven't paid your tithe. Unless, of course, you're lucky enough to be a world that doesn't offer a tithe. In which case is the Imperium going to be bothered if you disappear?

Ultimately for most developed worlds it seems that rebellion is a 'time bomb' waiting retribution... Unless, of course, you're lucky enough to be near a local hotspot that requires the attention of the Imperial Fleet, otherwise you might find yourself on the receiving end of a Taskforce.

What ifs, maybes and a whole suite of other things that depend on just how you approach the bureaucracy of the Imperium.


For example, what requirements would have to be met for the Imperium to not even both tryign to regain the planet?
No tithe payment springs to mind, along with no valuable resources, personnel or absolutely anything else that might be of value to the Imperium.


If the Imperium tries to regain the planet, what criteria would have to be met for them to stop trying?
Pragmatism. Cost. If what they're getting back is not worth the expenditure of resources, and even then it is questionable. Stupidity associated with the sovereignty of 'soil', etc.

Again, though, that's a set of wide open questions.

Kage

Iracundus
24-09-2005, 02:12
Coming under the protection of another power like the planet Taros did, under the Tau.

Being lost in the mire of Imperial bureaucracy though even that is no guarantee. The "State of the Galaxy" article in WD mentioned how some rebel worlds think they have succeeded in rebelling only to come under orbital bombardment centuries and generations later.

Ivan Stupidor
24-09-2005, 04:33
Well, let's see. Here's a quick guide to how I think an Imperial Governor should go about rebelling:

1. Be the governor of a Civilized or Agri-World. Hive, Mining, and Industrial types all have self-sufficiency problems, which, if you want people to survive after you rebel, may cause problems. Plus, Hive worlds usually have large groups of people who are pretty sure you're up to something, even when you're not, and you breaking ties with the Imperium is just the excuse they need to perform a tonsillectomy on you with a chainsaw. (I'm not going to mention Feral worlds. Honestly, you're likely a demi-god. Imperium or not, it's the best you can do.)

2. Subvert the PDF and the System Defence Fleet. You'll need their muscle. Since, as Governor, you can make friends and family members Instant Colonels (and Generals, and Grand High Marshal Lord Commander Admiral Commodore Over-General, or whatever you want to call the head of your armies), this should be pretty easy. Military men in the Imperium aren't exactly encouraged to disobey their superiors, after all.


3. Time your announcement to be just after your generational goodbye party to the Imperial Guard recruits. Your army is a bit smaller now, but it's the longest period between scheduled Imperial visits. Besides, as a bonus, you can ship away any annoyingly non-subverted PDF troopers as part of your tithe.

4. Kill everyone still loyal to the Imperium who has access to an Astropathic link. Yes, this includes the Astropaths. Make sure you kill the Arbites. All of them. Quickly. Turn their precinct houses into craters that are at least twice as deep as you think they would ever possibly burrow. If this means lance strikes from orbit, so be it. Area effect weapons are a bad idea, because you want your population (mostly) alive, and those cunning Judges like to build where they have lots of ablative fleshbag armour.

5. Put down any uprisings, riots, and civil disturbances with predjudice. Don't use extreme predjudice; use this later to convince the survivors that you're nicer than the Imperium. Finish killing the annoyingly persistant Arbites.

6. There are still Arbites around. Kill them.

7. See 6.

8. Consolidate your rule. Pray fervently to the Emperor that He doesn't send any Imperial Navy patrols, Space Marine Chapters, Inquisitors disguised as ordinary travellers, or anything else for that matter. Since you probably had the upper echelons of the priesthood killed in Step 4, now might be a good time to make your idiot half-brother the First Chancellor Pope Patriarch Cardinal, or whatever insane title you come up with. Make sure you intimidate any priests who survived Steps 4 and 5 into accepting their new boss. Do similar things with any former-Adeptus organization that you now realize was kind of keeping things around here running pretty smoothly.

9. Hope nothing bad finds your planet before you die. After you die, hope the Emperor can take a joke.

Nazguire
24-09-2005, 04:54
That was a pretty good plan of attack so to speak. However Adeptus Arbites being the persistent buggers that they are, are likely to have astropaths in their Precinct. Seeing as a Precinct is essentially a Fortress, to destroy it is a hard task, and gives the Arbites more than enough time to send a signal. :cries:

It seems those planets that rebel are either

a) doomed from the start to be taken back by the Imperial
b) don't even get to rebel as all rioters are taken away aka murdered
c) said planet that manages to destroy the Arbites and anything else hostile on planet, are obliterated by Orks/Dark Eldar/Tyranids/Chaos/et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...

:cries:

DantesInferno
24-09-2005, 06:19
The Imperium hasn't survived for 10 000 years as a repressive brutal galactic empire of a million planets by making it easy for subversive Commanders to renounce their ties, after all....

Iracundus
24-09-2005, 07:57
It's hard but not totally impossible. Macharius's furthest conquests on the western edge revolted against the Imperium after his death and some were never re-conquered.

Sojourner
24-09-2005, 09:15
Be remote or isolated. Be forgotten.

Basically, if the Imperium knows of your defiance, it's going to take direct intervention b the Emperor himself to save you.

lonepilgrim
24-09-2005, 13:00
A nice, long-lasting warp storm could come in handy, effectively isolating you from the Imperium. I presume warp storms would also impede astropathic communication.

Without that protection, I think it would be tough to withdraw from the Imperium for a long time. There are just too many different authorities representing the Imperium to hide your rebellion from. The Adeptus Astra Telepathica, Arbites, Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard, neighbouring Space Marine Chapters, The Ecclesiarchy, Adepta Sororitas, Administratum and the Inquisition just off the top of my head.

If the Imperial Commander headed a small, inconsequential world that nobody relied upon and was geographically remote, and had no strong enemies nearby (Chaos, Xenos races, etc) then he could live his whole life free of the Imperium, but I wouldn't fancy the chances of the next generation...

Kage2020
24-09-2005, 13:59
Ah yes, the traditional warp storm. That's about the size of it, if you don't mind the effects of said storm that have a sneaking tendency of manifesting every now and again.

Kage

Falkus
24-09-2005, 14:30
As somebody else said, join another empire and gain their protection. It's the only surefire way of surviving the reprisals, and even that is not guaranteed. And of course, there aren't very many other empires out there who view humans as anything other than targets or food, except for the Tau.

Nazguire
25-09-2005, 03:23
As somebody else said, join another empire and gain their protection. It's the only surefire way of surviving the reprisals, and even that is not guaranteed. And of course, there aren't very many other empires out there who view humans as anything other than targets or food, except for the Tau.


And even a lot of the Tau view Humanity as a plague in need of indoctrination in the Greater Good.

Iracundus
25-09-2005, 03:36
The Tau at least allow civilian humans to live peacefully. No other major alien power in 40K is likely to do that

Khaine's Messenger
25-09-2005, 03:51
The best way to rebel militarily would be to just be too much of a threat to approach. Sadly, the amount of military buildup necessary to get to that level would mean that you'd pretty much have to be "in the boonies" of Imperial space to even get away with it for long, as most everyone else has said.

The best way, if you just want to look out for number one, is to just make your world too indispensible to the Imperial "economy" (war effort if you like), like Armageddon did. If you accumulate enough prestige and "importance" in that manner, you can reach the point that you can dictate terms to the Imperium and become as corrupt as you like, because the Imperium would be simply unwilling to waste the resources on dislodging your regime, which is so obviously "productive." The problem is maintaining this state of affairs while not making yourself a target for the Imperium's enemies due to your importance, like Armageddon did. And, of course, the inherent problem of accumulating the prestige and importance of a world in a position that likely has those qualities because of a history that probably stretches back to the foundations of the Imperium.

But if you play your cards right, you can eke your world up to subsector or sector capital levels, and when your family gets to the right place in the hierarchy (because the sort of maneuvering this requires is going to need hereditary involvement...one generation's not going to be enough), you could take a whole sector or so with you, so that you would have a broader and more useful baseline of capital to build off of and make trouble with. And if you're in the right place in terms of astrography, you could probably get away with it for a few hundred or even a thousand years....

Shadowheart
25-09-2005, 05:30
Open rebellion doesn't seem a worthwile effort to me. The Imperium is still too powerful to achieve success. Either you're small and your insignificant rebellion will be crushed by the first Imperial battle group to come along, or it's indeed significant and they'll send in their regiments of guard, marines and gods know what else.
Moreover, from what I gather being part of the Imperium isn't such a bad deal for planetary lords anyway. You pay your tithes, send your troops, acknowledge the Emperor and all, but for the most part they let you go about your business as you please. Plus you get the protection of the Imperial armies if you should come under threat of one of the major players in the 40K galaxy.

So from a political and military point of view I don't see the sense in it, unless you could ally yourself with another power that offers similar benefits. Switching sides might be beneficial, but that depends on the precise circumstances. This kind of thing probably happens a lot in zones of conflict, when a planet is being contested by the Imperium and one of its enemies. Planetary governors who aren't too loyal to the Imperial cause will try to defect when the war looks to be going in favour of the enemy.
But your average planet in the middle of nowhere doesn't have a great alien empire or stronghold of Chaos to turn to. They could try to forge an alliance with other rebellious leaders but it'll be near impossible to form a solid front when the hammer of the Imperium eventually strikes. Half the rebels probably wouldn't even try to fight when push comes to shove, finding trustworthy allies is hard.

Not to mention that even concidering a rebellion on such a scale requires a perspective that I doubt many Imperial Commanders even have. They sit in their own little corner of the galaxy, they probably don't see beyond sector level, if that. I imagine they're the kind of rulers who plot to take the power of their neighbours. In any way challenging the Imperium itself, an entity so vast and ancient it's quite beyond our comprehension, is at best a fantastic piece of fiction. Something for passionate idealists, perhaps, but I should think the Imperium does its best to keep such people from attaining positions of power in the first place.

Easy E
26-09-2005, 21:21
If it seems so insurmountable to revolt, why do we hear so much about it in the "Background".

Good points about the Astropaths, I forgot completely about them.

So essentially, the only way is to be forgotten, or have the Imperium distracted by a bigger threat in yur area. However, if there is a bigger threat in your area, you would probably want to be part of the Imperium then more than ever!

Thanks for all the replies.

Khaine's Messenger
26-09-2005, 21:53
If it seems so insurmountable to revolt, why do we hear so much about it in the "Background".

Because most Imperial Commanders don't have our perspective of things and would not see it as an impossibility. And of course, short-sightedness. And Chaos-worship on occasion. The inbreeding and nepotism that is stereotypically there probably doesn't help much either.

Vanisher
26-09-2005, 22:32
IMHO such thing as a succesion of a world from a Imperium is possible,but as mentioned abaove rather rare.The planet woud centraly have to lay on the fringe of the Imperial space or near the wilder zone.It woudl have to be self-suficiente(a civilised world in that case),or relay upon the inner-system trade.As for the means of defenting a system,a large number of space stations orbital weapon platforms,missile silos,leser turrets,sytem ship and defence monitors along with humongus PDF ground forces,will be helpfull in case the Imperial or other guets in form of ORKS,Chaos,Dark Eldar,etc. would like to pay you a visit.As for the arbites,I don't think that they woudl acctualy pose such a great problem,considering that they numbers tend to be rather small,as in Necromunda enforcers article it is said that they limint them slef only to the spire,while day to day policing falls upon the local security forces.The various chaos/alien/imperial cults and officio assasinorum agents might aslo not pose such a mayor threath if the govener has a an effective counter inteligence/secret police at his disposal.Aslo the ranks of the defenders can always be bolsterd by mercenarys in form of warp capable pirates,renegade SM(non chaos),or aliens,but I would strongly not recomend Orks,Chaos Dark Eldar or any other race of they kind,as they have a nasty habbit of turning against their former employer.I am also toying with a possibility of corrupting the crews of the navy ship by the govener,as it seems that chaos and the tau don't have problem with it.

Ivan Stupidor
26-09-2005, 23:15
As for the arbites,I don't think that they woudl acctualy pose such a great problem,considering that they numbers tend to be rather small,as in Necromunda enforcers article it is said that they limint them slef only to the spire,while day to day policing falls upon the local security forces.The various chaos/alien/imperial cults and officio assasinorum agents might aslo not pose such a mayor threath if the govener has a an effective counter inteligence/secret police at his disposal.

Yes, but the Arbites only have to hold out until the Astropath at one of their precinct houses gets off a distress call, and then you (or your descendants) are screwed. And cracking one of those precinct houses before the Astropath transmits is not an easy task - these things are fortresses, and they house an absurd amount of materiel and weaponry and are filled with men and women prepared to defend it to the death. Taking a precinct house by ground assault can be done, but probably not in time. More covert operatives (and the Arbites undoubtably has them, even if the big guns aren't around) will be a constant thorn in the side of any rebellious governor. Sure, some cults will rise up immediately (the Red Redemption or its local equivalent, for example), but you can expect years or decades of guerrilla warfare until you root out all the loyalists.




Aslo the ranks of the defenders can always be bolsterd by mercenarys in form of warp capable pirates,renegade SM(non chaos),or aliens,but I would strongly not recomend Orks,Chaos Dark Eldar or any other race of they kind,as they have a nasty habbit of turning against their former employer.I am also toying with a possibility of corrupting the crews of the navy ship by the govener,as it seems that chaos and the tau don't have problem with it.

The numbers of warp-capable pirates is fairly low (although likely higher the farther you get from Imperial authority), and the number of non-Chaos mercenary SM likely number in the low thousands or less, so you'd be lucky to recruit even one (and they're probably mostly hiding out as "overly large chaps" in the aforementioned priate bands). Their numbers will likely be inconsequential to the PDF, as well - most warp-capable pirates operate out of escort-sized ships (so maybe 100-200 marines out of a crew of around 1000), and renegade SM merely become overy large fellows without their infrastructure to allow shock strikes. Alien mercenaries suffer the same problems the others do, with the added hurdle that their involvement will bring the Ordo Xenos down on you like a sack of hammers.
Corrupted Naval cruisers could bolster the defences of a renegade world considerably, but it is unlikely that a world could supply a ship that size on a permanent basis, let alone repair it if it got damaged. System Defence ships are a world apart from those arcane beasts.

Easy E
27-09-2005, 02:59
Someone was refering to joining another Empire. Most people seem to only think the Tau are eligible.

I will submit Orks as being eligible as well. Granted, you woul dbe a vassal, but many times the Ork overlords only demand a tribute. They then leave you to go about your business. This could be easier than the Imperial Tithe in some cases.

I will also posit that other large alien empires amy exist, but are not featured with armies.

Lockjaw
27-09-2005, 03:48
I think it would be possible for a planet to breakaway from the imperium and be sucessful at surviving, hard, but possible

Falkus
27-09-2005, 03:53
They then leave you to go about your business.

Until they get bored, and start looking for something to smash.

Vanisher
27-09-2005, 09:58
WARNING!SPOILER!!


In Storm of Iron novel an Iron Warrior socerer atempts to block all of the astrophatic message from the besieged imperial world,althougth he eventualy fails as one of the astrophtas manages to send a plea for help.IMHO the rebelious govenor coudl do similar thing,either by emploing a powerfull rouge psyker/group of them(maybe an alpha plus human or an alien counterpart) or some kind of alien/dark age of tecjnology device.

As for means of supporting a cruiser size ship the planetary lord might acctualy atempt to bulid his own fleet.The Lunar class cruiser can be bulit even upon the orbit of the ferral worlds in relatively short peroid of time(for example HDMS Lord Daros,tooked only 11 years to complete).And if the world has a sufficien industrial base even other Lunar based classes can be bulit(Dictator class Carrier Cruiser,and Armageddon class Battlecruiser).Also the world capable of constructig the should have little problem with maintnance.

The issue of pro-imperial gurellia can also be easly dealt.Basicly it is the govenor that has a massive propaganda machinery in his hands,and it is really not a problem that the loyalist are responsible for anything bad ranging from natural weather disasters to the extortion of little Timmy's lunch money.

The rebelious planetary comander will aslo be lucky if the nearby sector/sub-sector
is facing a chaos incruision/hive fleet visit/ork waghh or any other form of a slaughterfest as it will centraly draw the attencion of Imperials and give him some time,wich knowing the Imperiums nasty habbit of delaiyng thing might take even several hundred years.

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-09-2005, 10:58
The issue of pro-imperial gurellia can also be easly dealt.Basicly it is the govenor that has a massive propaganda machinery in his hands,and it is really not a problem that the loyalist are responsible for anything bad ranging from natural weather disasters to the extortion of little Timmy's lunch money.


Have that tactic ever actually worked anywhere, ever?

Blaming the guerrilla forces for all the bad things. If they don't have any popular support at all from the start it will work, but if there is even a minority of the population that supports them it's going to be next to impossible to deal with.

You might have to raise taxes because the arbiters just blew up a power plant and a major bridge. But the people is just going to feel that you raised taxes and they are not going to praise you for it.

Blaming them through your propaganda machine isn't really going to change that.

Sai-Lauren
27-09-2005, 11:01
The rebelious planetary comander will aslo be lucky if the nearby sector/sub-sector
is facing a chaos incruision/hive fleet visit/ork waghh or any other form of a slaughterfest as it will centraly draw the attencion of Imperials and give him some time,wich knowing the Imperiums nasty habbit of delaiyng thing might take even several hundred years.
Or they might decide to land on you as part of that campaign, blooding green troops, and establishing a supply base near the warzone.

Basically, if the planet was imperial, then at some point, they're going to try and get it back. Whether that's through a massive assault, sending a space marine company, or infiltrating an assassin like a Vindicare or Eversor to kill the leader in the most spectacularly messy manner possible to frighten the populace back, or a Callidus or other agent to either replace the leader or lead them back to the imperial fold.

It may not be tomorrow, next week, next decade or next century. But they will come for the planet eventually. There's probably plans for reconquering former imperial worlds in the Eye Of Terror.

But, if you only want to be governor of your own little empire until you die, and don't care about after that, then hiding in the paper work, signing on to someone like the Tau (even the Eldar might defend you for a while if you provide a sufficiently good reason, like you know there's some artefact on planet that they might want back, giving you time to build up your own forces), or having a fast warp capable ship on permenant stand-by are probably the best ways of doing it.

Vanisher
27-09-2005, 15:13
Actualy it did.Mainly in Stalins Soviet Union,an avreage citizen acctualy belevied that that goverment is saying thruth and that thay have to constantly remain vigilant in order to spot out the "enemys of the worker class.The destruction of a poweplant by the arbites might acctualy give the govenor an argument against the rolayist franction and further deacrease their support amog the population,as the woudl be lebeld terrorits,sabouters,trobulemakers you name it.
The resistance does not acctualy be completly root-out,but limited to the size where they won't pose any serious danger.

As for the ongoing large scale conflict in a nearby warzone,if the incrusion is taking place in the neighbering systems,the last thing even the most power gready govenor shoudl do is secesion from the Imperium,the only force that can save him from ending as a part of som Chaos Marine banner pole.What i had in mind was for example that sub-sector X is under atack from some kind of alien/chaos force,thus most of the battle fleet of sector Y along with numerous regiments of IG are shifted their in order to repel the invaders,enabling a govenor Joe of planet B,placed on the other side of the sector Y in sub-sector Z(it still has to be far away from other system and trade lines,most likekly as near as possible the bad zones)
to reject the unfair and illegal/corupted yoke of the Imperium or what ever the local propaganda/media will call it.

The agents of Officio Assasinorum are IMHO a bit overrated.Sure they are efective,but the galaxy is full of nutter cults/alien races that coudl be trained in a fanaticly loyal preatorian bodyguard that won't allowed any callidus,eversor,vindicare or papa smefr in a distance of the exitus rifle shot,before
slicing the in pieces/burning them alive with their psyker power or knocking them with their perfectly snow-white smile.It woudl also good for the govenor to impose
his own death and rule from a secret hide-out by means of controlin a puppet figure of his sucessor.And th Imperium can acctualy forget about the planet existance for quite long time.The best example woudl be a world reclaimed during the Macharius crusade that was isolated from the Imperium for over 5000 yearsor the sabbat worlds from Gaunts Ghots novels that have benn in the grasp of chaos forces for over 3 milenia IIRC.

Wiseman
27-09-2005, 15:26
if you leave the imperium you will need a huge army to defend the planet, or need to get lost in the paperwork, either is acceptable

Vanisher
27-09-2005, 16:17
A large force of ground troops woudl be usefull.But personaly I would rathet place my bet on the orbitall defences,as the enemy footslogers won't do much harm when their transports get blown in to the atoms while still away from the planets orbit.

Ivan Stupidor
27-09-2005, 23:43
In Storm of Iron novel an Iron Warrior socerer atempts to block all of the astrophatic message from the besieged imperial world,althougth he eventualy fails as one of the astrophtas manages to send a plea for help.IMHO the rebelious govenor coudl do similar thing,either by emploing a powerfull rouge psyker/group of them(maybe an alpha plus human or an alien counterpart) or some kind of alien/dark age of tecjnology device.

The warp-spawned and daemonically-augmented sorceries of a Chaos Legion are a world apart from the self-taught cantrips of the dregs of society. If the rebellious governor has to rely on such unique and rare devices, he's better off ruling the planet under the benvolent heel of the Emperor.


As for means of supporting a cruiser size ship the planetary lord might acctualy atempt to bulid his own fleet.The Lunar class cruiser can be bulit even upon the orbit of the ferral worlds in relatively short peroid of time(for example HDMS Lord Daros,tooked only 11 years to complete).And if the world has a sufficien industrial base even other Lunar based classes can be bulit(Dictator class Carrier Cruiser,and Armageddon class Battlecruiser).Also the world capable of constructig the should have little problem with maintnance.

The eleven-year build time of the Lord Daros doesn't take into account the necessity of building a massive orbital shipyard. Cruisers (even without their warp drives) are a fundamentally different beast to system defence ships. I'd be willing to bet that Lord Daros had quite a few Imperial-trained engineers and Mechanicus techpriests - the very type of people that would likely resist a rebellion, thanks to their in-depth indoctrination in the ways of the Cult of the Machine. (Of course, an alternate view is that they'd happily go about praising the Machine God until the world collapsed around them, building fancy doohickeys for whoever was in charge.)


The issue of pro-imperial gurellia can also be easly dealt.Basicly it is the govenor that has a massive propaganda machinery in his hands,and it is really not a problem that the loyalist are responsible for anything bad ranging from natural weather disasters to the extortion of little Timmy's lunch money.

And a very effective propaganda machine it would have to be. The effort would have to be subtle, reaching back decades or even generations to wean the people off the Imperial propaganda that they have been receiving for so long it's probably imbedded in their genetic code. Even after cutting public support, you still have to deal with the guerrillas themselves. If history has taught us anything, it's that they're remarkably resiliant.


The rebelious planetary comander will aslo be lucky if the nearby sector/sub-sector
is facing a chaos incruision/hive fleet visit/ork waghh or any other form of a slaughterfest as it will centraly draw the attencion of Imperials and give him some time,wich knowing the Imperiums nasty habbit of delaiyng thing might take even several hundred years.

If they're close enough to divert local fleet and guard arrangements, they're close enough to sap the governor's armed forces, as well... forces he'll need to pull off the rebellion.


The agents of Officio Assasinorum are IMHO a bit overrated.Sure they are efective,but the galaxy is full of nutter cults/alien races that coudl be trained in a fanaticly loyal preatorian bodyguard that won't allowed any callidus,eversor,vindicare or papa smefr in a distance of the exitus rifle shot,before
slicing the in pieces/burning them alive with their psyker power or knocking them with their perfectly snow-white smile.


Yes, the Assassins are overrated (they're only drugged-up superhumans, after all), but the chances of finding a praetorian guard capable of taking one down are exceedingly small, even if you discover a group of overly large chaps. Besides, if you deal with xenos or weird cults, it's sack of hammers time again.

Adept
28-09-2005, 12:31
As said, the only reliable ways for an Imperial world to go solo are to be militarily unassailable, or simply forgotten about.

An Imperial governor has three hundred years worth of tithes stored up. His forbears probably rebelled by default two hundred and ninety nine years ago.

Ikkaan
28-09-2005, 13:14
Most major problem with this is: how to silence the astropaths of a whole world. Nothing short of a warpstorm can cancel out interstellar communication.

But, if you manage to do the following:

-get the army on your side, put your offspring in the highest chain of command
-recruit your own spies
-block interstellar communication
-destroy all arbites-fortresses via orbital bombardement
-kill the remaining arbites
-use propaganda to instill the image that genestealers were undermining the arbites
-secretly kill all arriving travelers that land on your planet
-give out information that a plague broke out

youŽll eventually have enough time to:

-build a colony on some faraway planet
-funnel away your precious goods

If youŽre unscrupulous maybe 30-40 years will suffice to build your own colony. Very difficult to plan and more difficult to carry out. IŽm not sure about the benefits. If its going perfectly (which is next to impossible) nobody will know that youŽre there. Not even xenos will bother you if the planet is really unimposing.

Vanisher
28-09-2005, 14:13
The warp-spawned and daemonically-augmented sorceries of a Chaos Legion are a world apart from the self-taught cantrips of the dregs of society. If the rebellious governor has to rely on such unique and rare devices, he's better off ruling the planet under the benvolent heel of the Emperor.

As a rebelious govenor I would personaly stay as far away as possible from any form of employing the servants of ruinous powers/orks/dark eldar etc.,be it a pure military force or house cleaner.The best example woudl be a planetary comander who hired a cabal of dark eldars in order to defeat his rivals along with the arbites,and ended up as an Archons midnight snack.But apart from murderous psychos,galaxy is full of highly skilled profesionals that will prove usefull but won't
in the end turn you in to human skin made leather gym bag.The planetary comander is also the one responsible for rounding up individuals with psychic powers,and keeping them locked up untill the inquisitoral black ship comes in order to collect the package.It shouldn't be really a problem to hide few of the most powerfull,and smuglle them in to a secret asteroid base/unihabitted system and train in means of blocking an astropath signal.As for the technicall device I don't see the reason why a planetary lord should hestate to use it??IMHO it could be compared to our electronic warfer machinery.



The eleven-year build time of the Lord Daros doesn't take into account the necessity of building a massive orbital shipyard. Cruisers (even without their warp drives) are a fundamentally different beast to system defence ships. I'd be willing to bet that Lord Daros had quite a few Imperial-trained engineers and Mechanicus techpriests - the very type of people that would likely resist a rebellion, thanks to their in-depth indoctrination in the ways of the Cult of the Machine. (Of course, an alternate view is that they'd happily go about praising the Machine God until the world collapsed around them, building fancy doohickeys for whoever was in charge.)

The battlefleet gothic book only say that the mineral were extracted by primitive barabarians,smelted and deliverd in to the space by orbital elevators.It dosen't mentioned how the ship was latter assembled,but personaly I doubt that a ferral world woudl be capable of both constructing an orbitall shipyard and a cruiser sized vessel.IMO the production of the parts tooked place upon the surface of the planet leaving only the assembling.The Lunar class is said to be possible to bulid by worlds than normaly can't construct such a large ships,what I uderstand as them not having a proper orbitall facilites such as the ones posessed by the Forge Worlds.Plus a sucesing planet might acctualy have few shipyards.Simillary to the Adeptus Astartes,Inquisition,IG,and navy personel the AM fall to chaos and rebel against the Imperium,they aren't uncorrupteble like the Grey Knighst.For example tech chief magos of the world might be loyal to the Imperium but he has a young and ambitious tech priest among his ranks that is frustrated by lack of promotion because of his rather non-conservative approach to technology.A govenor migth remove the problematic magos by means of assasination and replace him with someone more "open-minded".




And a very effective propaganda machine it would have to be. The effort would have to be subtle, reaching back decades or even generations to wean the people off the Imperial propaganda that they have been receiving for so long it's probably imbedded in their genetic code. Even after cutting public support, you still have to deal with the guerrillas themselves. If history has taught us anything, it's that they're remarkably resiliant.

The propoganda machine is most liklely in the hands of the govenor and centraly says that he is a loving and fair ruler of his people.The population of the planet does not to have love the Imperium,but can view it as an oppressive regime that only takes away their last penny and drives you over by a tank,or burn as a heretic every time you have any kind of objection.As for efectivnes of propaganda I would recomend reading Orwells "Animal farm" and "1984",most of the totalitarian regime mechanics described there are 100% real.On the issue of the pro-imperial guerrillas,they won't do much damage if they don't have a popular support,plus they don't have to be completly erradicated but limited to the proportions in wich they won't cause to much problems.The history is also full of examples of how the resistance was eliminated by the military,for example the infamous polish "Wisla" action in 1947 againts the UPA bands.


If they're close enough to divert local fleet and guard arrangements, they're close enough to sap the governor's armed forces, as well... forces he'll need to pull off the rebellion.[\QUOTE]

As I mentioned in my earlyer post the incruision of the hostile forces would have to take place in the oposite corner of the sector or one of the nearby sectors.Basicly beyond the radius of the 100 light years from wich the reinforcments are drawn


[QUOTE=Ivan Stupidor]Yes, the Assassins are overrated (they're only drugged-up superhumans, after all), but the chances of finding a praetorian guard capable of taking one down are exceedingly small, even if you discover a group of overly large chaps. Besides, if you deal with xenos or weird cults, it's sack of hammers time again.

The statistics of the Officio Assasinorum agents in the Inquisitor rulebook are not much more better from the death cult ones,and centraily cannot be compared to thoes of a Space Marine.Assasin are a formable opponents but despite their training and enchancments still human.If you have enough time and resouces(and a govenor concerned about his one security would centraily have) you can train/hire/clone/breed/enchance/find an appropriate number of bodyguards that will eaqule the vindicare/callidus in their combat skills or even supas them.

Inquisitor Maul
28-09-2005, 14:27
I recomend anyone who's intrested in assassins (well, atleast callidus) to read The Inquisition War. You get a damn good view that assassins are death machines in human form and they're not stupid (well Callidus does translate to "Cunning" :rolleyes: ) so trying to outfight an assassin is not the best idea you can come up with if you value your life ;)

And then, the Callidus can actualy prove to be your next of kin (replaced with plymorphine) ;)

Khas
28-09-2005, 14:57
Hmm, I honestly cant see how a planet that the Imperium might be interrested in holding might actually manage to rebell sucessfully. On top of that, even if it is a remote dustball that noone cares about, the Imperium doesnt want them to get away with it, as it would be an example to other, more important worlds.

As such, there is litteraly nothing a planetary govenor can do, except in the short term. In the long term, he does not have the resources or technology to do anything other than be crushed by the Iron Heel of the Imperium.

Any explanations that require multiple far fetched plot devices to work, are simply not feasible, as they are far to specific and unlikely to be taken into account. This is similar to how most Chaos attacks are written, fluff wise. There always has to be a mountain of unusual circumstances, bad luck and specifics for any of their offensives to gain any ground, which would tell one that they simply are not 'that' dangerous.

Ahh, I just had to get that off my chest, sorry for rambling :)

Falkus
28-09-2005, 19:16
The statistics of the Officio Assasinorum agents in the Inquisitor rulebook are not much more better from the death cult ones,and centraly cannot be compared to thoes of a Space Marine.Assasin are a formable opponents but despite their training and enchancments still human.If you have enough time and resouces(and a govenor concerned about his one security would centraly have) you can train/hire/clone/breed/enchance/find an appropriate number of bodyguards that will eaqule the vindicare/callidus in their combat skills or even supas them.

If a dedicated man wants you dead, has the right equipment, and is willing to die in the process, then you are dead, no matter how good your security is.

Easy E
28-09-2005, 22:45
As a rebelious govenor I would personaly stay as far away as possible from any form of employing the servants of ruinous powers/orks/dark eldar etc.,be it a pure military force or house cleaner.The best example woudl be a planetary comander who hired a cabal of dark eldars in order to defeat his rivals and the arbites,and ended up asand Archons a midnight snack.But apart from murderous psychos,galaxy is full of highly skilled profesionals that will prove usefull but won't in the end trun you in to human skin made leather gym bag.

Vanisher brought up Mercenaries! One of my favorite 40K topics! I'll add this to the list of potential roles for Mercenary forces.

Thanks.

I agree that Orbital Defenses and System Defense ships would be your best investment. The Imperium has a massive Navy and Guard forces, however, the amount of any of these resoures they can actually use against you at one time is limited due to the multiple threats of the Galaxy. Secondly, if the navy can't protect the troop ships, they can't invade! If you can make a potential assault too costly, you can succeed. The best way to do this is with anti-orbital weapons and Spacecraft that may not be able to outright win, but cause massive damage to the invaders.

The question then becomes, can a civilized planet feasably build up these resources and howlong would it take? Would such a build up cause suspicion, or could it be explained away?

Kage2020
28-09-2005, 23:28
And, since I don't think that it has been done already, the true revolutionary Imperial commander should read this (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html). Sorry for not posting anything more constructive, but still... ;)

Kage

Ivan Stupidor
28-09-2005, 23:49
Vanisher brought up Mercenaries! One of my favorite 40K topics! I'll add this to the list of potential roles for Mercenary forces.

Mercenaries are useful, yes, but I view them - if they are employed at all - as additional soldiers, not as elite bodyguards. With the absurd fanticism of the Imperium, any rebel commander worth his salt would have his own loyal bodyguards (possibly even his personal guards from before he rebelled, who are probably equipped better than those grizzled mercs, since a governor's pocketbook is much deeper). Mercenaries would be useful as additional bodies, evne though getting them to the warzone might be difficult... but mercenary numbers and logistics is a whole other thread.


Fancy gimmicks won't win you a planet. Decades of planning, a loyal population and military, and a comperhensive orbital defence net will. Especially if said net can be pointed at the planet, if necessary.

Inquisitor Maul
29-09-2005, 14:20
And, since I don't think that it has been done already, the true revolutionary Imperial commander should read this (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html). Sorry for not posting anything more constructive, but still... ;)

Kage


Hehe, that page is hillarious :D

*saves the page. Who knows, it might come in handy someday ;) :evilgrin: *

Khas
29-09-2005, 14:22
That page is a must for all budding Evil Overlords :D