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magnificent*
13-01-2008, 10:01
I have the parts so why not represent my rant against the new codex in minature form. Does anyone understand how the following models represent complaints. I will have a tankbusta with one eye and a peice of sentinel doing a dance. 3 metal mega armour nobs (small squad because there are no plastics).
A k ommando staring at a tankbusta bomb.
A squad of 10 orks with no options from the old range.
A looted vehicle that looks very heavily armed and armoured.

RTB01
13-01-2008, 10:07
what on earth on are you on about? this thread makes very little sense

Grazzy
13-01-2008, 10:14
what on earth on are you on about? this thread makes very little sense

I agree. I have no idea what the opening post is about.

magnificent*
13-01-2008, 10:15
The thread is about the fact I am one of the many people that are unhappy about certain changes to the ork codex, such as the fact that tankbustas have to shoot at a vehicle if there is one in line of sight even if it is clearly out of range. I want to represent this stupidity on one of the tankbusta models by giving it one eye to show how tankbusters cannot judge distances and a piece of a sentinel (a vechicle that is not that powerful but the ork will be converted to be dancing because it is happy) .

bucheonman
13-01-2008, 10:19
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm....okay....

RTB01
13-01-2008, 10:23
my next question may seem quite patronising - how old are you?
and if that aggrieved about the new codex then do as the rest of us did with the chaos codex, stop playing orks! (or just get on with it!)

As for the tankbustas issue, I'm sure they'll errata it so you don't have to fire at things out of range!

Ben
13-01-2008, 10:30
I agree there should be plastic mega armour, as well as plastic Grots. The Deffkopta, buggy and track could all do with being redone as well, or an accessory sprue added to the last two to orky them up a bit.
However the tankbusta rules are there for balance. If tankbustas could shoot what they like they would probably never shoot tanks, instead decimating a squad of MEQs a turn, and going against the high strength, high rate of fire AP 4 and above feel of the rest of the orks.
Also if you are playing using a sensible amount of scenery, and not one hill in each deployment zone, one building in the middle, you can use tankbustas to either close off whole sections of the table to tanks, or to hunt tanks that have to come within 24" to do anything. If you are being hit all the time by tank fire more than 36" away then you are not using enough terrain.

Also bomb squigs are pretty much the ultimate in tank killer, given they hit on a 2+ at strength 8. Given normal ork BS of 2 thats great.

You could also deliberately limit what your tankbustas can see, using terrain and other LOS blocking things (like combats), so they shoot enemy infantry. However if you sit them on a hill at the back, yes, they may well plink away at stuff out of range all day.
Tankbustas simply force you to use tactics.

In general I think the codex is pretty good. I would be happy fighting with it or against it.

The only problem in my opinon is the lack of more new models (grots, which are a troop choice, and you can no longer just buy a legal unit of, mega armour, which has an insane cost in money terms, the old 2nd ed/Gorka Morka vehicles).

Mojaco
13-01-2008, 10:32
You'd actually consider putting time and money in converting miniatures to make a very vague point... right.

Can't believe you're unhappy with the Ork codex... Play with it before passing judgement. Tankbustas likely won't be as hard to play at all, as the opponent would have to hold every tank back to get you out of range. Besides, you can move and shoot, so just move closer and hunt those tanks, or keep out of LOS of tanks to deside your own targets.

magnificent*
13-01-2008, 10:45
You'd actually consider putting time and money in converting miniatures to make a very vague point... right.


What is a proper reason to put time and money to convert minatures?

superknijn
13-01-2008, 11:17
Having fun, spending time, doing something with your creative energy, getting things to show off with, etc. Proving a point is arguably worse than all of them.

Mojaco
13-01-2008, 11:18
For fun. Couldn't think of that yourself? Hardly surprising really.

the1stpip
13-01-2008, 11:35
The only problem in my opinon is the lack of more new models (grots, which are a troop choice, and you can no longer just buy a legal unit of, mega armour, which has an insane cost in money terms, the old 2nd ed/Gorka Morka vehicles).

There will be plastic Grots, we have seen the 3-ups at GD UK, and there are rumours of MA Nobs in plastic (and if they do, I will have a pure Deffwing army, just for fun).

Ben
13-01-2008, 16:32
You can only have pure Deffwing if you take two warbosses, which let you take two troop choices as mega armour.

But damn I'd be tempted to do a Deffwing army if they did plastic mega armour.

Lord Raneus
13-01-2008, 16:56
Yes, because it's not like Orks wouldn't make smart, informed tactical decisions...:rolleyes:

It sounds like you're playing the wrong army, to be honest. If you want troops that will always shoot at what you want them to, play Space Marines.

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-01-2008, 17:09
As for the tankbustas issue, I'm sure they'll errata it so you don't have to fire at things out of range!



I doubt that, don't they make a special point that you have to shoot at vehicles no matter what in the actual rule?

Lord Raneus
13-01-2008, 17:22
From my perception, Ork Tankbustas would shoot at a vehicle that is out of range. Remember, units can't just be chocolate-coated awesome all around, some of them do have to have drawbacks. ;)

Snipafist
13-01-2008, 17:25
So you're going to spend time converting up a bunch of Orks with extremely minor conversions that 99% of the people you play against aren't going to understand and most will find stupid (a tankbusta dancing with a bit of a sentinel? what? are you dropping acid?) just so you can continue a juvenile temper tantrum about a codex that is universally regarded as having been greatly improved? Yeah, good luck with that.

unclejimbo827
13-01-2008, 17:31
So... you're going to convert an army just to make a very contrived point about one of the better codices GW has produced in a while?

You're an idiot.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
13-01-2008, 17:45
Go ahead and do what you want. Sometimes when they change codeci's there are things that we like and things that we don't like. I'm sorry you're not happy with the new codex, but as was said before, Orks aren't Space Marines. I think that new rule is very Orky and a good balancing manuver. Good luck with your conversions (if that wasn't just a bunch of talk) and definitely post some pictures when you're done!

Radish
13-01-2008, 17:46
Am I like the only person to have understood the thread and what each conversion was meant to represent?

I think it's a very interesting and creative thing to do if the OP wants to do it. I find the tankbusta one quite funny infact, and would pay alot more attention to him after seeing these convertions than a long-winder post on how Orks being ruined.

However, I do not agree with him. New Orks rock, tankbusta rule = tactical use for a horde army. Nice job IMO.


Having fun, spending time, doing something with your creative energy, getting things to show off with, etc. Proving a point is arguably worse than all of them.

Okay that is pretty patronizing, if he wants to do it, he will probabl have fun doing it, its also very creative and its something very good to showoff with. That tankbusta could be entered into a competition, don't you think?

Before any (potential) childish rants are sent back at me. I don't agree with his points of tankbustas, looted wagons etc. But its his opinion right? Far more interesting approach than another codex-flame thread.

Senbei
13-01-2008, 17:48
The Tankbustaz are now a very silly unit. Not only can you make them impotent by placing a Rhino more than 28" away from them and then boltering them to death with a 5 man tactical squad, but they now all have to have Rokkit launchas... Making them a really expensive unit and a very easy one to kill (no other models to remove as casualties y'see).

Grotz are now somewhat useless... S&T 2... and now only half the cost of an Ork.. Making it a better tactic just to buy another squad of boyz (who will soak most incoming fire much better and also be a threat in combat).

Burnas also suffer from the 'all armed with special weapons' problem... This means you start loosing your burnas as soon as the first casualty is removed from the squad.

However...

I quite like the new Stormboyz rules. Deathkoptas are nice too. Looted Wagons are good, though somewhat pathetic compared to a proper looted vehicle. Battlewagons have proper Armour now iirc.

So.. The new Codex isn't all bad. The Fluff is some of the best for the Orks I've read since 1992. The list is, however, less competetive than the last version. Ork Boyz should be the backbone of any Ork army... But theyre just not as good as they used to be.... Choppas weren't broke so why did they have to fix them? Orks are now a good deal more shooty but also a great deal less capable to deal with a 1+ saving throw.

A lot of people have whinged about this and claimed that it's just an attempt to blunt the Ork can-opener Vs Marines..... And I guiltily admit that I can see what they mean..... There are a lot of 'random ap' weapons in the Ork army now, but these don't really make up for the lack of close-combat punch in this supposedly close-combat punch heavy army.

Lord Raneus
13-01-2008, 18:02
Choppas were broke. It's ridiculous that they slice through Terminator Armor with ease but have no effect on Carapace Armor.

HCCWs made no sense fluff-wise, were made exclusively to hurt MEQ armies, and I'm not sorry to see the back of them. If you want choppas back, you *cannot* have 6-point Ork Boyz as they then become ridiculously effective against Marines, with both huge numbers AND the ability to reduce the Marine's main strength, their armor save.

The above applies for Eldar Aspect Warriors and Necrons as well.

Radish
13-01-2008, 18:17
@Senbei: Tankbustas are cheap having rokkit launchers, granted they die easily but they have alot of kick. Use cover, block LOS using terrain, combats or lots of the Orks cheap vehicles and hey stay alive whilst shooting at the right thing. They have an effective range of 30" which is above average too.

I agree grotz seem pretty pointless now, but if they were 2pts each, that would be FAR too many wounds (even at T2 and no armour save) for too cheap. Personally, I think they should have retained the cover save bonus they provided before.

Whilst you start losing special weapons upon first casualties, they are cheap for what they are equipped with. Given a transport or a bunch of vehicles to block LOS to them will solve that problem. Seriousely, I think people udnerestimate the advantage of so many cheap vehicles, even if they die easily.

Choppas were broken! How can that be denied? They killed terminators as easy as scouts. Thats not right. Now they are cheaper so can flood the same two units in more attacks, so they are substantially more effective vs the scouts (and all 4+ or less units, guard being most important as they have lots of cheap infantry too) and struggle more with termies, who cost alot anyway so you can flood them with even MORE boyz than before!

Random AP isn't bad for a random and funny army is it? They pay for the average likely AP value (i think) but can potentially obliterate terminators in a round - not to be snuffed at!

I'd love to play versus Orks, but I dislike pickup games (too many young players who don't know the rules I find) and my gaming group quit playing a while back. Don't get me wrong - I been trying to get the most likely person back into it, showing him how cool the new orks are ;)

BigRob
13-01-2008, 18:18
I have the parts so why not represent my rant against the new codex in minature form. Does anyone understand how the following models represent complaints. I will have a tankbusta with one eye and a peice of sentinel doing a dance. 3 metal mega armour nobs (small squad because there are no plastics).
A k ommando staring at a tankbusta bomb.
A squad of 10 orks with no options from the old range.
A looted vehicle that looks very heavily armed and armoured.

Oh you've covered the tankbustas but I'm guessing....

Metal Megaarmour because theres no plastic mega armour (yet!!)
Kommandos can't have tankbusta bombz
Looted vehicles/wagons can only have a few guns and have poor armour.
10 orks with no options from the old range...they can still have slugga/choopa or shootas.....unless you mean 2nd ed, in which case, no they cant have bolters anymore.

I quite like the new ork codex personally, only a few bits need ammendments and this can be done in a suitable pdf add on (yeah right!) from GW, mainly Feral Orks.

cazzz669
13-01-2008, 18:19
why change something its its only useful against certain opponents? I dont mind either way just showing people senebis arguement. Yes they destroyed marines good and proper, but IG, nids, eldar, tau etc etc

Ben
13-01-2008, 18:24
We've already gone into detail on how to use tankbustas so this isn't a problem.

Boyz now aren't as good at crushing terminators, but I don't think they'll be massively less effective against marines. I think Nobs in squads with power klaws, furious charge for boyz, and sheer numbers will keep Orks a brutal CC force. Do people want Orcs to beat marines in CC on a 1-on-1 basis? When you get 2.5 boyz per marine?

Looted wagons and Lootas have been changed to keep orks distinctive, as having a squad with marine sniper rifles, etc is a bit silly. Orks adapt other races tech to their own or just cobble together something they could normally build, hence Deffguns.

And before people complain too much about Grots, take a look at the rules, and imagine a Grot Mob plus squig hound, plus runtherds with grot proddas. Then imagine what they would do to a carnifex, wraithlord or daemon prince. Grots are a good choice.

Elite units are generally expensive and elite. Unlike Marine veterans, or Chaos Chosen which can purchase additional meatshield basic troopers, Orks don't get that. I wouldn't complain too hard though, as Lootas are something most players would give their right arm for.

Removing the just take a vehicle from someone elses list eliminates some of the wierd choices, allows everyones vehicles to remain legal, and prevents the need to have another codex. The weapons are still good, and nothing to complain about, but you can't have land raiders anymore to give you armour 14 and lascannons.

Grimtuff
13-01-2008, 20:14
Grotz are now somewhat useless... S&T 2... and now only half the cost of an Ork.. Making it a better tactic just to buy another squad of boyz (who will soak most incoming fire much better and also be a threat in combat).


Love how you complain about a "change" to a unit that is identical in stats to the last codex.... :eyebrows:

DoctorTom
13-01-2008, 22:13
I agree there should be plastic mega armour, as well as plastic Grots. The Deffkopta, buggy and track could all do with being redone as well, or an accessory sprue added to the last two to orky them up a bit.

For the Deffkopta, you could just stick wings on a bike to represent it. After all, if a vehicle can go faster because they believe the red paint makes it go faster, then the belief that wings make things fly should allow a bike to fly if it has wings stuck on it. ;)

cailus
13-01-2008, 23:56
Love how you complain about a "change" to a unit that is identical in stats to the last codex.... :eyebrows:

They lost their special rules which was the sole reason for including them (i.e. 5+ cover save to Orks and using Grots to make it easier for byz to go through difficult terrain).

Grots are now pointless. Compared to a normal boy they are also overpriced.

Hellebore
14-01-2008, 00:02
They lost their special rules which was the sole reason for including them (i.e. 5+ cover save to Orks and using Grots to make it easier for byz to go through difficult terrain).

Grots are now pointless. Compared to a normal boy they are also overpriced.

My grot army will disagree with you.

BS3 for no points increase has made them BETTER than they used to be.

I've taken out drop pod marines, eldar and tau with my grot army - BEFORE they were BS3...

Hellebore

UltimateNagash
14-01-2008, 00:27
you can't have land raiders anymore to give you armour 14 and lascannons.
Yes you can :D Battlewagon with twin rokkit launchas, zzap gun, 2 big shootas :D

But my feelings on the Codex are:
Lootas/Tankbustas
I'm sorry, what? You loose your weapons straight away. Er, yeah, but considering most army could only take one of those weapons anyway, that makes no sense... :eyebrows:
Choppas
Never liked the rule - should've been -1 to their armour save
Grots
Still a cheap unit, now able to shoot stuff more, and I still like them - good tar pit unit ;)

kikkoman
14-01-2008, 00:52
A squad of 10 orks with no options from the old range.

count as snazzguns or deffguns
or break them up to be the big shoota or rokkit carrying boyz of mobs




A looted vehicle that looks very heavily armed and armoured.

it's now a battlewagon, which are heavily armored and armed.
your options are... a killkannon (something big and blasty)
a zzapgun (something energy), kannon (not as big as the killkannon), lobba (mortar)
and 4 big shootas or rokkits for sponsors, pintle, etc.

Between the choices of battlewagon, loota wagon, buggies and trukks, 3ed looted vehicles should all carry over fine.






Grotz are now somewhat useless... S&T 2... and now only half the cost of an Ork.

you get a slaver with 10 wounds that takes away an attack.
30 grots, 3 slavers, -3 attack (though minimum of 1) to say, a wraithlord, powerfist sgt, etc.
the grot's pts value is not for just the grot, but as a meatshield for the boy reducing that daemon prince's attack down one.