PDA

View Full Version : Before the Necrons went underground?



Vesica
14-01-2008, 09:24
I was just thinking about when the Necrons went into their deep sleep because of some virus thinge that started to kill off their food and came to think that could it have been some for of Tyranid? seen as they wipe every living thing from a planet and dont stop till they are all wiped out.

What do you think? and is there and chance of this being true?

Lord Damocles
14-01-2008, 09:33
The C'tan went into hibernation because the Enslavers were causing warp rifts everywhere, and generally killing off all of the young races - which left little for the C'tan to feed on, so they went to sleep to wait for the galaxy to re-populate.

Vesica
14-01-2008, 09:35
O yea i remeber that now, was wondering if it could have been some form of tyranids that did it.

Ikkaan
14-01-2008, 09:35
The Necrons donīt need food, but their masters do. The C'tan feed off of the energies a living being contains. After the war between the Enslavers and the C'tan (a war that was fought after the ressources both wanted: biological beings) the latter went into hibernation, taking their minions with them. Because the galaxy was a barren place with too little "food" to consume.

Thats all pretty ancient history in 40K, and the tyranids werenīt even there play any role.

Vesica
14-01-2008, 09:36
But how do we know they wheren't around? as i remeber info on that period is pretty sketchy as it is.

DantesInferno
14-01-2008, 09:37
I was just thinking about when the Necrons went into their deep sleep because of some virus thinge that started to kill off their food and came to think that could it have been some for of Tyranid? seen as they wipe every living thing from a planet and dont stop till they are all wiped out.

What do you think? and is there and chance of this being true?

No, it's not true.

The C'tan went into stasis because the psychic races created by the Old Ones inhabiting the galaxy at the time (eg. Eldar, Krork) were being attacked by a race called the Enslavers. The Enslavers are a race whose natural habitat is the Warp. They attack the minds of warp-sensitive creatures, controlling their minds and morphing their victims into warp portals made of living flesh. The Enslavers can then enter realspace through this portal.

So no, they're not Tyranids, which are aliens inhabiting the physical universe, which arrived in the galaxy in question 60 000 000 years after the Enslavers began attacking the psychic races in the War in Heaven.

EDIT: Damn, beaten to the punch somewhat...

Killgore
14-01-2008, 12:44
No, it's not true.

The C'tan went into stasis because the psychic races created by the Old Ones inhabiting the galaxy at the time (eg. Eldar, Krork) were being attacked by a race called the Enslavers. The Enslavers are a race whose natural habitat is the Warp. They attack the minds of warp-sensitive creatures, controlling their minds and morphing their victims into warp portals made of living flesh. The Enslavers can then enter realspace through this portal.

So no, they're not Tyranids, which are aliens inhabiting the physical universe, which arrived in the galaxy in question 60 000 000 years after the Enslavers began attacking the psychic races in the War in Heaven.

EDIT: Damn, beaten to the punch somewhat...


where the enslavers beaten or did they return to their warp realm?

they could make an interesting new race for 40k if they was to return.

Kandarin
14-01-2008, 14:07
where the enslavers beaten or did they return to their warp realm?

they could make an interesting new race for 40k if they was to return.

They're still around, albeit in greatly diminished numbers. There are rules for them in a Chapter Approved release somewhere (the same one that had Xenos Mounts and Plague Zombies, if I recall correctly). They'd be more significant, but they've been replaced as the Warp's apex predator by Daemons. That's not enough to threaten them with extinction, but it did take them out of the spotlight.

Ikkaan
14-01-2008, 15:30
But how do we know they wheren't around? as i remeber info on that period is pretty sketchy as it is.

Because the tyranid race was encountered for the first time on the Moons of Ymgarl in M39. The specimens the Salamanders Space Marines found there were genestealers, and there is no previous information about the tyranids throughout 40K history. The great crusade in M30 does not mention tyranid-ish lifeforms and was probably the largest expedtion ever. Thats pretty accurate so we can be sure that the tyranids werenīt known to this point. They are probably newcomers to the milky way, either they were engineered, evolved from something else at some point or stem from elsewhere (and by elsewhere iīm inaccurate by intent).

Brother Siccarius
14-01-2008, 15:38
Because the tyranid race was encountered for the first time on the Moons of Ymgarl in M39. The specimens the Salamanders Space Marines found there were genestealers, and there is no previous information about the tyranids throughout 40K history. The great crusade in M30 does not mention tyranid-ish lifeforms and was probably the largest expedtion ever. Thats pretty accurate so we can be sure that the tyranids werenīt known to this point. They are probably newcomers to the milky way, either they were engineered, evolved from something else at some point or stem from elsewhere (and by elsewhere iīm inaccurate by intent).

Actually, there's the Ordo Xenos stance that things like the Kraken of Fenris and the Catachan Devil are likely from previous tyranid excursions.

Killgore
14-01-2008, 15:40
Because the tyranid race was encountered for the first time on the Moons of Ymgarl in M39. The specimens the Salamanders Space Marines found there were genestealers, and there is no previous information about the tyranids throughout 40K history. The great crusade in M30 does not mention tyranid-ish lifeforms and was probably the largest expedtion ever. Thats pretty accurate so we can be sure that the tyranids werenīt known to this point. They are probably newcomers to the milky way, either they were engineered, evolved from something else at some point or stem from elsewhere (and by elsewhere iīm inaccurate by intent).

not exactly true

in the new Tyranid codex there is a few pages about possible Tyranid fleets in the last 10k years

examples include a race of aliens that flew in stone ships, the catachan devil and a possible reason why catachan is a deathworld jungle, the giant sea creatures of the space wolf's homeworld and one or two other examples such as bio acid marks on a Warlord titan thousands of years ago

Rirekon
14-01-2008, 15:40
Because the tyranid race was encountered for the first time on the Moons of Ymgarl in M39. The specimens the Salamanders Space Marines found there were genestealers, and there is no previous information about the tyranids throughout 40K history. The great crusade in M30 does not mention tyranid-ish lifeforms and was probably the largest expedtion ever. Thats pretty accurate so we can be sure that the tyranids werenīt known to this point. They are probably newcomers to the milky way, either they were engineered, evolved from something else at some point or stem from elsewhere (and by elsewhere iīm inaccurate by intent).

Just because something hasn't been found doesn't mean it doesn't exist, a new species of beetle is discovered every hour (or something silly) on Earth though I suspect they've been here for a while longer than that.
In fact given that most knowledge from the previous Ages is missing it would be no surprise to me that the Tyranids have been around for a lot longer than we thing.

Mercer
14-01-2008, 15:56
It is in theory that the Tyranid's have been to our galaxy before, leaving behind things like the Devil. They have made there way around other galaxies and now back at ours.

Tyranids are like nature really. They wipe everything else out so other species can live if you think about it. Like the metor and the combination of other things wiping out the dinos.

Mercer

SpaceLanceCorporal
15-01-2008, 00:09
It is in theory that the Tyranid's have been to our galaxy before, leaving behind things like the Devil. They have made there way around other galaxies and now back at ours.

Tyranids are like nature really. They wipe everything else out so other species can live if you think about it. Like the metor and the combination of other things wiping out the dinos.

Mercer

I thought nids left planets as balls of rock with no biomass or atmosphere. What other species can live there?

Rirekon
15-01-2008, 08:29
They don't always, as mentioned before various planets appear to have been seeded by the Tyranids but not wiped out.

Ikkaan
15-01-2008, 09:01
Ok, i stand corrected - the tyranids may have been there some time ago, BUT the horus heresy books donīt give us any clue that tyranids pose a threat, so it must have been before that time. The description of the war between the enslavers and the c'tan does not give any information about tyranids, so even if there were any they didnīt play any role beside being eaten like the rest of the galaxies lifeforms. And, to add, the eldar were already existing back then and they donīt have any record of tyranids (or they would have recognized them in M41). So IF the tyranids passed through the milky way before and left single organisms like the catachan devil - why didnīt they devour all life in the post-war in heaven and pre-emperor timeframe?

stormblade
15-01-2008, 09:05
Sorry for making a question that's a bit off topic but why weren't Eldar eaten by the Enslavers?

DantesInferno
15-01-2008, 09:19
Sorry for making a question that's a bit off topic but why weren't Eldar eaten by the Enslavers?

Lots of the Eldar were eaten by the Enslavers.

If you mean why weren't all of the Eldar eaten by the Enslavers, there are a variety of possible reasons. The most sensible is that plague of warp-inhabiting predators is a fairly strong evolutionary pressure: the Eldar who were less visible targets in the warp would have survived to spread their genes, where those who were metaphoric psychic beacons would be gobbled up quicksmart. It's a similar answer for survivors of any sort of epidemic: it tends to build up immunity in the population by killing everyone else. Otherwise, they could have designed technological means of fighting off their attackers as their populations dwindled. The surviving Eldar could also have hid in the Webway of their Old One masters, though it's unclear exactly how warp-resistant it was at the time.

Rirekon
15-01-2008, 09:22
Just because something isn't mentioned by name doesn't mean it wasn't there. The Emperor's/Horus's Crusade came across hundreds if not thousands of weird alien species, it's entirely possible they actually came across some form of Tyranid and didn't realise or haven't made the connection.
Remember that the majority of fluff in WH40k is written from the Imperial perspective, with some from the perspective of the other sentient species, but there is little (if any) from the Tyranid perspective.
Not being mentioned is far from the same thing as not existing.

stormblade
15-01-2008, 09:25
Lots of the Eldar were eaten by the Enslavers.

If you mean why weren't all of the Eldar eaten by the Enslavers, there are a variety of possible reasons. The most sensible is that plague of warp-inhabiting predators is a fairly strong evolutionary pressure: the Eldar who were less visible targets in the warp would have survived to spread their genes, where those who were metaphoric psychic beacons would be gobbled up quicksmart. It's a similar answer for survivors of any sort of epidemic: it tends to build up immunity in the population by killing everyone else. Otherwise, they could have designed technological means of fighting off their attackers as their populations dwindled. The surviving Eldar could also have hid in the Webway of their Old One masters, though it's unclear exactly how warp-resistant it was at the time.

Yeah, that makes sense although, taking the warp affinity of the Eldar in consideration, they would fall quite quickly to the Enslavers.
Well, anyway-thanks for the answer.

Lucifer216
15-01-2008, 09:56
The thing with the Tyranid seeding organisms, is that they must have had some way of communicating to the main swarm that there's loads of food in the galaxy for the munching. Which in turn suggests that there must be entire death worlds which function as giant brains or mini-astronomicons. One can't help but wonder how they could be missed by navigators and the like?

Rirekon
15-01-2008, 10:05
Current fluff seems to suggest that the Tyranids are drawn to planets with lots of psychic activity, so if for some reason those organisms that the planet was seeded with didn't develop psychic powers then it wouldn't draw the rest of the fleet.
Presumably this could be caused by a Genestealer infecting a blunt species (which begs the question of Genestealer-Tau hybrids...), as it takes on properties of the host.
It's also possible that the worlds weren't intentionally seeded but are places where fragments of Hive fleets have crashed separating the Tyranids on board from the Hive mind.

Mercer
15-01-2008, 11:30
I thought nids left planets as balls of rock with no biomass or atmosphere. What other species can live there?

I think it's 9 times out of 10. However Tyranids must be able to survive on a planet with no atmosphere or anything or else they'd die themselves. I guess in time, millions of years later the planet would reform. I guess species would possibly evolvebut on the other hand who can say, these Tyranids are aliens and controlled by the hive mind so evolve might not be possible.

Mercer

When Black Roses Bloom
15-01-2008, 12:44
I think the Necron Genocide took place in a near galaxy, not our own, and they fell into remission, when the C'Tan ate everything at their disposal. We know for sure, that Nightbringer fell almost dead because he was nearly destroyed by the warp rifts, the Outsider went insane by eating too much Necrodermis, and fled outside our galaxy, the Void Dragon perhaps forsaw the advancement of humans and laid to rest at Mars, knowing about the influence on the mechanical advancements he could create and I can't remember about the Deciever (did't he got his butt beaten by the Laughing God or something? Or was it the Nightbringer?). And if IRC the Tyrannid invasion comes form a different end of the galaxy, not that it matters or something.

Lord Damocles
15-01-2008, 16:59
I think the Necron Genocide took place in a near galaxy, not our own, and they fell into remission, when the C'Tan ate everything at their disposal.
Seems unlikely since the Orks and Eldar took part in the War in Heaven, and neither of them has the ability to move between galaxies. Come to that neither do the Necrons / C'tan.
The C'tan went into stasis/hibernation because the Enslavers were causing a psychic apocalypse and wiping out the young races.


We know for sure, that Nightbringer fell almost dead because he was nearly destroyed by the warp rifts, The Nightbringer almost starved because his ship, 'The Bringer of Darkness' was sent to the warp by a fleet of 'Young race ships'


the Outsider went insane by eating too much Necrodermis, and fled outside our galaxy,
It's the essences of the other C'tan that drive him insane, not the Necrodermis as such.
He's most likely in the Dyson Sphere, which is definately in our galaxy.


the Void Dragon perhaps forsaw the advancement of humans and laid to rest at Mars, knowing about the influence on the mechanical advancements he could create
Possible, although humans were no more than 'commical tree-beasts' at the end of the War in Heaven. More likely it was just a pleasant looking dead world for him to take a nap on.


and I can't remember about the Deciever (did't he got his butt beaten by the Laughing God or something? Or was it the Nightbringer?).
Not beaten exactly, didn't really beat him at anything though.


And if IRC the Tyrannid invasion comes form a different end of the galaxy, not that it matters or something.
Do gallaxies have 'ends'?:angel:

Brother Siccarius
15-01-2008, 17:44
Ok, i stand corrected - the tyranids may have been there some time ago, BUT the horus heresy books donīt give us any clue that tyranids pose a threat, so it must have been before that time.

Don't remember the MegaArachnids? First thing I thought when I read the descriptions was "TYRANIDS!".




Do gallaxies have 'ends'?:angel:

Yes, the Galaxy is that big map of the Imperium interposed over the map of the Milk Way Galaxy. The Tyranids didn't come from "the other side of the Galaxy" they came from a different galaxy altogether. A Universe has no ends (theoretically!) a Galaxy tends to tapper off a certain ways away from the Galactic center.

azazel_fallenangel
15-01-2008, 19:54
Just out of curiosity, what stopped the Enslavers in the end?

Lord Damocles
15-01-2008, 20:04
I assume that they just ran out of things to possess, until they ended up at the level they're at currently.

Norminator
15-01-2008, 20:12
Just thought I'd add;

It's probably a mistake on William King's part, but in one of the Ragnar Blackmane books (I think the one where he goes after the spear) Ragnar is looking at some murals of Leman Russ. And in one of them, he describes the Primarch being shown, with his wolf guard, fighting some Tyranid gaunts.

downundercadet07
15-01-2008, 21:08
Seems unlikely since the Orks and Eldar took part in the War in Heaven, and neither of them has the ability to move between galaxies. Come to that neither do the Necrons / C'tan.
The C'tan went into stasis/hibernation because the Enslavers were causing a psychic apocalypse and wiping out the young races.

The Nightbringer almost starved because his ship, 'The Bringer of Darkness' was sent to the warp by a fleet of 'Young race ships'


It's the essences of the other C'tan that drive him insane, not the Necrodermis as such.
He's most likely in the Dyson Sphere, which is definately in our galaxy.


Possible, although humans were no more than 'commical tree-beasts' at the end of the War in Heaven. More likely it was just a pleasant looking dead world for him to take a nap on.


Not beaten exactly, didn't really beat him at anything though.


Do gallaxies have 'ends'?:angel:

I though that humans had discovered orkoid communications deriving from neighboring galaxies? Untrue?

Norminator
15-01-2008, 21:11
I though that humans had discovered orkoid communications deriving from neighboring galaxies? Untrue?

I thought that the quote said that the probe sent from Terra '14,000 years ago' was sent to circumnavigate the universe, and is still sending back Orkoid signals. However I've heard other people say it was 'circumnavigate the galaxy', so I may have misremembered.

The_Warsmith
15-01-2008, 21:36
the tyranids probably inhabited the milky way long before the great crusade, it's entirly possible the megaarachnid are 'left overs' from a hive fleet

BUT

what everyone has forgotten, something that was mentioned earlier, is that the enslaver virus appeared over 60 million years ago, where the tyranids even around then? did they even resemble the organised hive fleets controlled by one mind way back then? with the nids ability to evolve so fast they probably only started behaving coherantly very recently and before that where animalistic beasts like humans used to be

Ikkaan
16-01-2008, 09:45
Well...if something isnīt laid down in fluff somewhere itīs impossible to come to the conclusion that the tyranids played a role in the war of the heavens. We simply donīt know, and most of the fluff points in the direction of "no sightings, nothing known, wasnīt even important enough for a side note".

Rirekon
16-01-2008, 10:10
As has been pointed out by myself and a few others, there are many clues that Tyranids may have been around. Saying categorically that they weren't because no-one mentions them is more than a little foolish, our own history teaches us that lesson.

Scythe
16-01-2008, 12:08
I assume that they just ran out of things to possess, until they ended up at the level they're at currently.

Which begs the question: why haven't they reemerged? The galaxy is filled with psychically attuned life once more (humans, orks, nids, and the remains of the eldar), so you would expect them to multiply like rabits once more.

elusiveintrovert
16-01-2008, 13:41
Which begs the question: why haven't they reemerged? The galaxy is filled with psychically attuned life once more (humans, orks, nids, and the remains of the eldar), so you would expect them to multiply like rabits once more.

The enslavers were normally docile. It was all of the disturbances in the warp from the young races during the war in heaven that disturbed the enslavers and caused them to become agressive. The amount of psychic activity occurring seemed to be like poking a giant mind eating bee hive with a stick. Once the psychic activity ceased, I imagine that the enslavers would have returned to the warp and returned to their docile manner.

Scythe
16-01-2008, 13:58
The enslavers were normally docile. It was all of the disturbances in the warp from the young races during the war in heaven that disturbed the enslavers and caused them to become agressive. The amount of psychic activity occurring seemed to be like poking a giant mind eating bee hive with a stick. Once the psychic activity ceased, I imagine that the enslavers would have returned to the warp and returned to their docile manner.

And the more recent disturbances in the warp wouldn't have the same effect then? Think about the birth of Slaanesh and the eye of terror, the maelstorm, the tyranids shadow in the warp, the huge Waaaghs etc. Or would such events still be insignificant compared to the war in heaven?

Lord Damocles
16-01-2008, 15:52
And the more recent disturbances in the warp wouldn't have the same effect then? Think about the birth of Slaanesh and the eye of terror, the maelstorm, the tyranids shadow in the warp, the huge Waaaghs etc. Or would such events still be insignificant compared to the war in heaven?

Even these events are probably fairly insignificant compared to the War in Heaven.:eek:

Possibly, these events don't involve massive numbers (and we're talking whole species at a time here) accessing the warp to use their powers, so the Enslavers might not have been too bothered by them.

EDIT: Wasn't the eye of Terra opened during the War in Heaven? Hense the Cadian pylons existance?

elusiveintrovert
16-01-2008, 17:06
The eye of terror was created just before the great crusade, the pylons were already there coincedently.

Anyway, as Lord Damocles has said, the psychic activity of the current races would not likely be anywhere near that of those that participated in the war in heaven, who seemed to use psychic abilities as their primary weapon.

Also the emergence of the current ruinous powers may also have something to do with it. Before the war in heaven there was not likely an abundance of daemonic entities like there is now, so the daemons may not allow other warp entities like the enslavers of vampyres to prey on their food source.