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A13X
15-01-2008, 04:46
Dark Eldar have a bad reputation, no denying that. Thay are one of the most unpopular armies (well they are the most unpopular to be precise) in 40k and you rarely see anyone with them, whether at your local GW or tournament.

They are widely thoguht of by the community to be one of the worst armies to collect, and a large factor of this is how they are said to be hard to play, especially in competitive enviroments.

For example, I went to GW earlier this week to kick-start my Dark Eldar collection. I was talking to the manager of the store about what he'd recomend to me as a good base and in the space of about 5 minutes had warned me about how they are such a hard army to play well, numerous times.

Another example is in the introduction of the codex and on the GW site: "make no mistake, they are not an easy army to use but in the rigth hands can be an almost unstoppable opponent" (approximated).

People say that in the right hands Dark Eldar are a deadly opponent, which could be said for any army, but they are crakced up to be one of the hardest armies to play overall. Sure they only have a basic 5+ save but so do regular eldar and guard. Sure their "tanks" have front armour of 11 but they can move considerably faster then those of any other armies.

My question to you is what gives DE their reputation as being such a hard army to play?

Vandur Last
15-01-2008, 05:08
They lack anything solid. A solid unit that can easily absorb punishment is forgiving of any blundering on the part of its general.

onnotangu
15-01-2008, 05:13
We hates them we do. they hurts us!

DE in the right hands is damn near impossible to beat but crumples under some of the newer armies of doom. like DA combat squad from hell and the New Orks. But as a raiding force. they are excellent for surgical strikes and larger games

Gaius_Baltar
15-01-2008, 05:22
I've only ever played against Dark Eldar 3 times. Twice I was slaughtered, and one of the times, I would've gottent a solid victory, but becuase of that "extra 1 point per captured slave" thing they have, It ended in a tie.

Santiaghoul
15-01-2008, 05:29
Dark Eldar was my first 3rd Ed army. I played them weekly for a couple of years. The reason for the hard to play rep is they are very fragile and unforgiving of mistakes made by the player and a round of bad dice rolls. I eventually got to the point where I would easily win by the 4th turn, if and only if, I got avg dice rolls. One bad turn of dice rolling on my part or a really good run of luck for my opponent and my army would fade out faster than a Necron. :)

I have not played my DE at all under 4th Ed. I havent played many games in 4th, kinda dropped out for a while. Once I read the skimmer rules, I blanched. Each of my Raiders is converted and its pretty obvious which one are my HQs and HtH units. Nice look for the army, but with skimmers not blocking LOS, My HQ and Wyches would be hoofing it after my opponents first turn of firing, I think.

Hicks
15-01-2008, 05:43
I think they have horrible minis and that they have the strongest, most abusable codex in the game. As for them being hard to play, anyone with any grasp of the game will do well with them. Anyone who claims to have lost a 100 times and then sudenly became unbeatable is a lier, they are far from being the hardest list to win with.

Epicenter
15-01-2008, 06:14
I think they have horrible minis and that they have the strongest, most abusable codex in the game. As for them being hard to play, anyone with any grasp of the game will do well with them. Anyone who claims to have lost a 100 times and then sudenly became unbeatable is a lier, they are far from being the hardest list to win with.

What he said.

They're not particularly difficult to play (but I disagree any army in 40k is particularly difficult to play) with their "good" builds - in fact they're very straightforward. It is very easy to make a weak list with DE, but if you look on the internet and find the two builds that DE win with (Wych Cult and WWP), DE are essentially unbeatable for many armies without the DE player making lots of mistakes or the die rolling being really bad for the DE player (and good for you).

If anything Dark Eldar since their update are too strong. Nobody moans about them unlike normal Eldar because nobody plays them.

Like any T3 army with poor saves, their army is very fragile. However, they can get into close combat easily, where they're even better than Tyranids. For dark eldar, CC is their holofield and Wraithlord. Judicious use of CC blocks LOS against shooting, and their high I and powerful key units makes it reasonably certain they'll win CC (like many armies, they often have the problem of running out of opponents and getting shot up).

Orbital
15-01-2008, 06:16
I think the main thing keeping people from collecting Dark Eldar are the models. They aren't that great, and when you compare them to the newer sculpts they look even worse.

The Dark Eldar are also not an army that can be fielded in infinite combinations. Generally you either get a zillion Warriors on foot plus some Wyches or you get a zillion Warriors in Raiders plus some Wyches. Of course, that's over-simplifying it... but my point is you won't see a lot of variety in the lists.

Now more than ever I think people are also holding off because it seems as if some new rules and models might be imminent.

It's been said before in this thread that Dark Eldar are not forgiving of mistakes. Beginning players will be afraid of the poor armor save and the low strength/toughness. They'll be afraid of the AV11 open-topped vehicles that are so easy to take down. The benefits of things like the webway gate and combat drugs won't be obviously apparent to a novice in the way that the benefits of a 3+ armor save are.

All that having been said... Dark Eldar are not and army that's easy to beat. The are (and I'm not exaggerating here) the only army that I'm scared to fight. They can be lighting fast, shoot a rain of gunfire at you (at BS4), slice you to ribbons in close combat, and catch you by surprise from almost any angle if they want to. They're fast and scary and, if the player is good, they can totally control the table. In low-point games they're even worse; close to unbeatable, I'd say. This is mainly because they can put so many heavy weapons in such large squads for so few points. Wanna try to beat Dark Eldar in Combat Patrol? Forgetaboutit.

I love the army. It challenges the player to think hard and, when he does, it rewards him generously. Whenever it is that they're brought up to 4th ed standards, I'll be among the first to jump on the bandwagon.

starlight
15-01-2008, 06:55
In the hands of a competent player, they're a fine army with great potential for victory.:)

They *are* unforgiving, but then so are any Elite armies out there...:eyebrows:

I'm a fan of the Wych Cult I'm converting into a Harlequin Masque...:evilgrin:

A13X
15-01-2008, 06:57
Honestly, the DE models aren't that bad, and not nearly as bad as people make them out to be. Sure Wytchs look like ... and the codex is old, and probably made with microsoft paint but the warriors and vehicals are fine.

They are porbably going to get a re-vamp fairly soon, though I hope not next, since I just started collecting them... Though the warrior sprues shouldn't change that much (I hope). Does anyone actually know when (if) the DE are getting re-vamped?

starlight
15-01-2008, 07:00
Don't expect it this year...but I'll bet a dollar on 2009. ;)

All of my Wyches are conversions from Mandrakes, Witch Elves, Wyches, Harlequins, Wood Elves, and more...:D

Orbital
15-01-2008, 16:29
Honestly, the DE models aren't that bad, and not nearly as bad as people make them out to be. Sure Wytchs look like ... and the codex is old, and probably made with microsoft paint but the warriors and vehicals are fine.
That would be something of a subjective matter, wouldn't it?

The_Outsider
15-01-2008, 16:32
DE are hard as nails no doubt, but not all destrying as some people make out.

Their list has HUGE gaps in it to exploit if you play against them.

Orbital
15-01-2008, 16:33
DE are hard as nails no doubt, but not all destrying as some people make out.

Their list has HUGE gaps in it to exploit if you play against them.

Which gaps would you exploit? Give us some tactica, man!

The_Outsider
15-01-2008, 16:41
Which gaps would you exploit? Give us some tactica, man!

Just play a horde army and watch as the average current DE builds crumble.

For the average eldar player i'd say a bit of good old fashioned dire avengers do the job - they mince DE infantry and can take out a raider via weight of fire.

Prisms are actually useful - they an outrange ravagers (and anything else TBH) and nuke anything they feel like.

Warpsiders with withdraw (I think its called that) are brutal if they get to shoot - but they are a high cost good save unit - the sort of thing that gets lanced.

Or even vibro cannon, no LoS needed = nowhere to run.

Cuda
15-01-2008, 16:47
Hmnnn? Nothing much can stand against a well armed Archon, he can take out any Space Marine Commander. Mine even thumped a Hive Tyrant. Troops are awesome, cheap and weapons that are ample enough to take out Monoliths to Land Raiders (I can't count the times my squads took out Land Raiders). Even a Weaponless Raider can give you and edge to win a a game.
Wyches pretty much own you in Hand to Hand (yes, even to Genestealers).
There is absolutely nothing you can do to stop Mandrakes to get to their objectives. My opponents laugh at them until they tie up his precious Devastator squad for half the game.
The Dark Eldar special characters are really lethal and excell in Apocalypse Battles.
The Problem is that the Dark Eldar have a tough learning curve, most give up before they learn just how lethal the DE can be in the right hands. There is a right combination of units and a wrong one too, when you know what your doing then you can pretty much run the game.

Cuda...

Caboose123
15-01-2008, 17:45
In the right hands DE can be deadly, i agree, but there are a few problems at the moment for them;
- Bad models (no one should question this, except for incubi...they're alright!)
- Raiders are now flaming death traps (Except for incubi...)
- No real hitting power (except incubi...)
- No real standing power (except incubi...)

As you can tell incubi are good, but they should be an elite, not a command squad.
DE function much better as a shooting army with counter assault nowadays with Bs4 troops for 9 (maybe 8) points with 4 special weapons!

Mandrakes always make it into combat but are worthless thereafter.
Grotesques have too low Ld.
Scourges are alright
Wyches die too easily
Hellions can turbo-boost but die too easily.
Ravagers are actually devastating!

Thats all i could bother writing about ^^

Chaplain of Chaos
15-01-2008, 17:52
An obvious reason why so few play them would be the complete lack of attention recieved from GW.

The_Outsider
15-01-2008, 17:58
In the right hands DE can be deadly, i agree, but there are a few problems at the moment for them;
- Bad models (no one should question this, except for incubi...they're alright!)
- Raiders are now flaming death traps (Except for incubi...)
- No real hitting power (except incubi...)
- No real standing power (except incubi...)

As you can tell incubi are good, but they should be an elite, not a command squad.
DE function much better as a shooting army with counter assault nowadays with Bs4 troops for 9 (maybe 8) points with 4 special weapons!

Mandrakes always make it into combat but are worthless thereafter.
Grotesques have too low Ld.
Scourges are alright
Wyches die too easily
Hellions can turbo-boost but die too easily.
Ravagers are actually devastating!

Thats all i could bother writing about ^^

Methinks you do not realise that wyches are overall just as good (probably better) than Incubi.

Also 4 "special weapon" warrior squads are kinda crap unless you give them 2 splinter cannon and 2 blasters - 10 men with 2 lances is far far more powerful.

Hellions cannot turboboost as they are not bikes - they are jump infantry.

Scourges cost waaaaay too much as base, then their rediculous cost of weaponry.

Bloodknight
15-01-2008, 18:03
What's so great about incubi? I never use them or see them in tournament lists. They are expensive and slow the lord down.

That said, I have not seen a Kabal on a tournament in ages, most people play Wych Cults, as do I.

Hicks
15-01-2008, 18:06
What's so great about incubi? I never use them or see them in tournament lists. They are expensive and slow the lord down.

That said, I have not seen a Kabal on a tournament in ages, most people play Wych Cults, as do I.

I'll hazard a guess, but for the non-iniciated they look like marines with power weapons and a huge I value. But yeah, Wytches still are better.

Aerometh
15-01-2008, 18:40
What's so great about incubi? I never use them or see them in tournament lists. They are expensive and slow the lord down.

That said, I have not seen a Kabal on a tournament in ages, most people play Wych Cults, as do I.

As a long standing DE player, its the cost effectivness of the Incubi. Yes, Incubi slow down a lord, however, in a WWP Kabal, keeping a Dracon with a unit of 5 Incubi in reserve on a raider usually means that the first and only turn that they can be shot at, they're already in combat. For the whole 240+/- pts that the squad will cost, its a hard hitting unit. But like everything else in the DE force, can't go it alone. If they're charging in with the support of an Archon on a Jetbike, or a unit of Mandrakes (I love those little bastards), it gives the unit the staying power they need, and hopefully, the two round combat that all DE players love.

There's no denying they're a hard list to play, considering that WWP Kabal lists tend to be all about acceptable losses, and for the newer players, Acceptable losses seems to be a rather outlandish concept.

Advice for anyone looking to play DE;
You have a terrain advantage, its called raiders.

Don't be afraid to loose a few raiders, its why you have terrain advantage.

Everything in the list is cost effective for its SPECIFIC ROLE. Don't shoot with wyches and assault with warriors.

Open topped; boon and bane. You're going to go down to bolt pistols as Anti-tank fire, but on the flip side, you've got a fast firing platform for everyone on it. Drive by shootings anyone?


The Dark Eldar game is just as mental as it is physical. Do outlandish things. Deploy improperly and use your first turn movement to redeploy, leaving his weapons now useless in the wrong spots. Draw your opponent into what seems like a safe area from your shooting, then change it into a death trap with your movement. People despise wraithlords, so why not use yours? The long unloved talos is devastating, albeit slow without a WWP. And last but not least, never forget the mantra; Speed is your armor.

Cuda
15-01-2008, 18:52
In the right hands DE can be deadly, i agree, but there are a few problems at the moment for them;
- Bad models (no one should question this, except for incubi...they're alright!)
- Raiders are now flaming death traps (Except for incubi...)
- No real hitting power (except incubi...)
- No real standing power (except incubi...)

As you can tell incubi are good, but they should be an elite, not a command squad.
DE function much better as a shooting army with counter assault nowadays with Bs4 troops for 9 (maybe 8) points with 4 special weapons!

Mandrakes always make it into combat but are worthless thereafter.
Grotesques have too low Ld.
Scourges are alright
Wyches die too easily
Hellions can turbo-boost but die too easily.
Ravagers are actually devastating!

Thats all i could bother writing about ^^

This is what I do;

Dracon, Agonizer, Pistol, 4 Incubi, 5 Warriors, 2 Splinter Cannons and a Raider. No Shadow field or Combat Drugs, too much overkill and I like to stay in hth for awhile, besides, who's left to strike back? Unless your foolish with the squad - choose wisely.

Raiders are always flaming death traps, but you can use the wrecks for cover. I use several Raiders and the enemy can't get them all. Use large terrain, Warriors with a couple of Dark Lances can easily take out the heavy armor. At a 180 points you can field 20 warriors with 2 Dark Lances, that's a 20 wound monster that can pop any armor.

No hitting Power? You are obviously approaching the combat from a wrong angle. Not everything relies on h2h, with DE it's all about supportive units, using the strong against the weak.

Standing power? The Dark Eldar should never be standing in the first place unless your using Warriors with Dark Lances. Keep them moving and concentrate on the objective not on revenge.

Shooty Army? It's all about the right combination of shooting & assault; Shoot to enhance your assault units.

Mandrakes? How worthless are they when they arrive in a deep corner in the enemies deployment zone in a Recon mission? Tying a way more expensive unit in h2h or even stopping a unit getting to their objective?

Grotesques need Haemonculis for their LD. Use Grots against a Tau player, all str 6 weapons should be a relief from your other units.

Wyches die too Easily? Toss them into a squad of of one of the most feared assault units - Genestealers and tell me what dies easily? They really take the Rending out of the claws.

Spend more time with the DE you start to see a lot of advantages that are available to you as a player, DE love to exploit it.

Cuda...

A.S.modai
15-01-2008, 19:10
I dont play DE but I think they can be awesome. Someone in my GG fields a ridiculous number of raiders in 1500 pt games. No armor is safe. Not to mention the damn wychveeda.

Although I will say my dreads always seem to stop the DE characters butt cold. Shadow field or not. In our last APOC. game my assault cannon dread gave Lelith hesparax a serious beatdown.

I hope there is a codex. I'm even down for one in a WD issue. At least give the talos fleet or something.

The_Outsider
15-01-2008, 19:30
What's so great about incubi? I never use them or see them in tournament lists. They are expensive and slow the lord down.

That said, I have not seen a Kabal on a tournament in ages, most people play Wych Cults, as do I.

I swear by incubi.

They kill that what wyches cannot and wyches kill what they annot.

Incubi with archon/dracon and a wych unit gives the army insane synergy when used in a dual pronged attack.

shadowmsj
27-01-2008, 12:37
I am thinking about starting a DA combat patrol army (400 pts). Does anyone recommend a list?

Johnnyfrej
28-01-2008, 02:08
There are no "invinciable" armies in 40k. There are armies that are great at one thing and suck at another (tau, guard). There are armies that rely on planning and luck (eldar, DE). There are armies that can be good at shooting or CC and need to be specced ('nids, orkz). Then there are armies that are good at everything but not great at anything (SM, Chaos). In short, you should be able to kill any army in some way or another.

DE usually are about getting into CC fast or getting shot to pieces on the way. As a Guard player who has faced DE many times (we have a fair number at the local GW) I have never been beaten without killing at least 60% of their army. If you plot your army correctly you shouldn't have much of a problem. In my case I field lots of HBs and Autocannons to take out there skimmers and lots of guardsmen squads to soak up CC or shooting.

Most of the time I can destroy most of their raiders and transports before they get into CC. When they do I have plenty of expendable squads to get into CC while everyone else moves back and waits for the DE to kill them and begin blasting.

As far as their reputation as an easy lose/ easy win army I don't buy it. Any army can be beated easily or win easily depending on how you plan and play it.

-Private Jon

Jerichoholic104
28-01-2008, 02:57
The thing about Dark Eldar is that they have HUGE strengths, and HUGE weaknesses. A good player knows how to maximize strengths, and minimize weaknesses, and this makes the Dark Eldar very deadly. (This isn't true for power armored armies. They are built such that they are forgiving but not overwhelmingly powerful). People tend to say that the Dark Eldar are "broken" because of this. I disagree.

The Dark Eldar's weakness is that in the wrong role, any of the Dark Eldar units are utterly vulnerable. Incubi or Wyches in a shooting role are useless. Warriors are near worthless in close combat. However, they have a unit that is probably the best in the game in every role. Ravagers if manouvered correctly are devastating. Warriors are arguably the best basic troop in the game (cheap like orks and nids, good at shooting like marines, large numbers of heavy weapons, good at taking objectives in raiders). Wyches and Incubi are arguably the best close combat units against the appropriate enemies (for example, Incubi own Striking Scorpions, Wyches own Howling Banshees). Incubi can take on the 'ardest unit on the table. Wyches win wars of attrition.

That said, wyches in the open get massacred. Raiders in the open get scrapped by anything from Bolters to Autocannons to Lascannons. The specialist close combat units tend to get bogged down by hordes.

However, the biggest advantage for the Dark Eldar is that most people are completely ignorant of them, or they underestimate them. These people have lost before the game has begun against a skilled DE player. Then they feel the Dark Eldar are "broken" because of the spanking they just received.

killstreak
28-01-2008, 03:08
Like any T3 army with poor saves, their army is very fragile. However, they can get into close combat easily, where they're even better than Tyranids. For dark eldar, CC is their holofield and Wraithlord. Judicious use of CC blocks LOS against shooting, and their high I and powerful key units makes it reasonably certain they'll win CC (like many armies, they often have the problem of running out of opponents and getting shot up).

i remember one tourney where a friend of mine had about 1k points left of his nid army when just (if i remember right) HQ and elite choices, all that was left of the DE army, ripped right through the rest of the nids. It was pretty sad.

Codsticker
28-01-2008, 05:54
Don't expect it this year...but I'll bet a dollar on 2009. ;)

I'll take that bet. :eek:;)


I think the main thing keeping people from collecting Dark Eldar are the models. They aren't that great, and when you compare them to the newer sculpts they look even worse.

That is what I always thought the problem was; the Haemonculus (sp?) models I thought looked pretty decent (but I'm told they are over-costed), the rest of the range is pretty poor.

The_Outsider
28-01-2008, 08:03
That is what I always thought the problem was; the Haemonculus (sp?) models I thought looked pretty decent (but I'm told they are over-costed), the rest of the range is pretty poor.

Haemonculous only cost 10 points more than a marine base - and they are a HQ choice.

A "naked" one is probably the cheapest HQ choice in the game (and 25 points won't go a miss).

They don't get taken much simply because the other HQ choices are so good.

Bloodknight
28-01-2008, 08:08
I would not call Haemis overcosted. A unit with a flamer with variable AP, inv. save, T4, jumppack movement and a 4+ save for 55 points is nothing to sneeze at. Add another few points and they wound everything on 2+ in cc. I've toppled carnifexes and wraithlords with two of these in CC.

To add to the_outsider's post: and you can take 3 for one slot which may move individually.

squeekenator
28-01-2008, 09:50
Dark Eldar are horribly yet inventively broken. I know exactly what Dark Eldar do, I've read their codex back to front and was going to collect them before I decided to focus on the armies I had already. The webway mechanic is simply too good. Would you be fine if Tyranids could pay 50pts to make their whole army unshootable? Dark Eldar are all about designing your list; if you avoid Scourges, Grotesques and Hellions, and get webways, the army plays itself. Has anyone who claims that Dark Eldar are hard to use actually played them? I have, and there is no skill required whatsoever.

Archangel_Ruined
28-01-2008, 10:07
Some DE armies are just filth, pure and simple. They aren't unbeatable but they'll always give you a good run for your money. As many people have stated, they are fragile, so 2" becomes a mile in game terms when you play them. 2" is making combat and slaughtering your foe or being left for a turn in rapid fire and flamer range, and you will lose if this is the case. I think many posters have it right here, it isn't the list holding the army back, it's the pigdog ugly miniatures.

The_Outsider
28-01-2008, 10:22
Some DE armies are just filth, pure and simple. They aren't unbeatable but they'll always give you a good run for your money. As many people have stated, they are fragile, so 2" becomes a mile in game terms when you play them. 2" is making combat and slaughtering your foe or being left for a turn in rapid fire and flamer range, and you will lose if this is the case. I think many posters have it right here, it isn't the list holding the army back, it's the pigdog ugly miniatures.

In my games a certain BA player has realsied that if he actually moves forwards with any of his troops (including assault marines and DC) I can assault him.

From my deployment zone.

More often than not turn 2.

2" I HUGE distance as you say - far more important than any other distance for the assault based DE army.

koran
28-01-2008, 11:28
I really dot rate incubi, never used them and never will, they are just to slow.

And why DE are beard, in the hands of a good general and the advised (25%) mount of terrain, I dont think I can be defeated. Ive had one draw and the rest wins to me (and this is in using them regularly for one and a half years). Im not trying to sound like I think Im all that, I just want to point out I know what Im saying.

If you go for a fast striking army with a solid firebase you can do HORRIBLE things.

In 1500pts they have three tanks that have the most firepower in the game (yes they are fragile but there are ways around that) and two HQ's that can charge in the first turn plus another three units that have the possiblity of a first turn charge. And if you take Lelith.... Ohhh BABY!

MIGHTYPanhead
28-01-2008, 13:46
Hmnnn? Nothing much can stand against a well armed Archon, he can take out any Space Marine Commander.

My stealth team killed an archon first turn (in CC) once. 3 wounds, three 1's. Priceless :D


Aside from that, dark eldar are nasty. Closest I've come to beating them was with guard. Multiple (like, 14-15) heavy weapons teams in the open scared him into deploying too far back. If I had gotten first turn, I would have won. (he had one squad left at the end of the game)

Ouroboros
28-01-2008, 15:43
I think how hard they are to pick up depends on entirely what sort of a list you attempt on your first try.

If you go for the more traditional DE: raider/webway assault list you're going to have a lot more difficulty than if you just take 100 warriors, 3 ravagers and a couple vicious HQs for counter charge. That sort of an army will absolutely shred the typical MeQ force and just about anyone with half a brain can use it properly.

There's also several absolutely hopeless units in the codex that are bound to throw off first time players. If you load up on mandrakes, scourges and hellions you're going to lose for example. It's almost inevitable.

Aurynator
28-01-2008, 16:09
Well I have enjoyed reading this post so far. However there are a few things Id like to add into this lovely discussion.

First of all, Incubi have S4 and a power weapon plus a 3+ save. how ever they cost 25 points base and dont have fleet. This is just too much sacrifice for a decent armor and a power weapon.

I Play a wych cult army DE list and it is my only army (I have a necron army collecting dust so it doesnt count : P ), I have a very high win ratio and mainly there is one thing that causes me to loose fights, and thats terrain. If the table lacks terrain, DE most often die. They need cover for one round. Also a Eldar grav tank holofield swarm kills the DE, but thats another story.

Also i did post a detailed overview of all the units in the codex. I hope this link works. (im a noncomputer lingo person)

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115814&page=12


I hope this will give an insight into what i see as strenghts and flaws of the army.

The_Outsider
28-01-2008, 16:18
First of all, Incubi have S4 and a power weapon plus a 3+ save. how ever they cost 25 points base and dont have fleet. This is just too much sacrifice for a decent armor and a power weapon.



For some.

I use incubi to go terminator and HQ hunting - things that wyches can often struggle to deal with (as outside fo the succubus wyches really don't kill that much).

I'll use an example from recent game-

My wyches charged a tactical a 10 strong squad (and they fluffed it up bad) - got ganged by an assault squad, some death company with lemartes and another 5 strong tactical squad.

Needless to say they died.

However - and the point of this example - my archon + incubi (5 incubi) charged the 10 strong assault squad and killed them all, then consolidated into the DC and lemartes and killed all bar 2 DC and my archon wounded lemartes before ALSO fluffing it and dying.

That one unit earned WELL over its points cost in VP - even factoring in its raider.

Even if the wyches charged they would struggle to kill the DC and lemartes - something an archon + incubi laugh at.


Basically incubi and wyches kill what the other cannot - thus having both in an army creates amazing synergy.

Aurynator
28-01-2008, 16:32
That might be, but then again, An Archite and succubus both with agonizers and combat drugs can dish out 13 rerollable agonizer attacks that land on 3+ and wound on a 4+ no matter what you charge (termies or hive tyrant with guards) then on top of that come all the other attacks.

I do not argue the point that Incubi can kill some units more easily than Wyches, but looking at the bigger picture (options on viable targets) the wyches are better. Instead of a 3+ save, you get 4+ invulnerable save, instead of 4 in str, you get wound on 4+ no matter what. etc etc etc.

On paper and against many armies incubi are great. but against every army in the 40k range wyches are a serious threat.

Yade
28-01-2008, 16:38
Dark Eldar have a bad reputation, no denying that. Thay are one of the most unpopular armies (well they are the most unpopular to be precise) in 40k and you rarely see anyone with them, whether at your local GW or tournament.

They are widely thoguht of by the community to be one of the worst armies to collect, and a large factor of this is how they are said to be hard to play, especially in competitive enviroments.

For example, I went to GW earlier this week to kick-start my Dark Eldar collection. I was talking to the manager of the store about what he'd recomend to me as a good base and in the space of about 5 minutes had warned me about how they are such a hard army to play well, numerous times.

Another example is in the introduction of the codex and on the GW site: "make no mistake, they are not an easy army to use but in the rigth hands can be an almost unstoppable opponent" (approximated).

People say that in the right hands Dark Eldar are a deadly opponent, which could be said for any army, but they are crakced up to be one of the hardest armies to play overall. Sure they only have a basic 5+ save but so do regular eldar and guard. Sure their "tanks" have front armour of 11 but they can move considerably faster then those of any other armies.

My question to you is what gives DE their reputation as being such a hard army to play?


A1, I can summon the problem of the DE in two broad statements.

1. Most of their choices in the book suck, statistically and tactically.
2. The ones that dont suck are Expensive to field in the quantities that you need them and are brutally devastating when you do.

You need to research the DE Air Force and I assure you that you will lay waste to all of your opponents once constructed properly

Here is my list, it varies based upon war gear.



6 raider squads (10 men in a raider) Splinter cannon and blaster, always include the sybarite with an agonizer and you might pay for ight shields. If you get the night shields reduce squad size to compensate for points. A trophy rack is necessary if you have 5 extra points per sybarite (ld 9 after first kill!!)

3 wych squads (10 wyches in a raider) 2 blasters and a succubus with an agonizer. Same story on the night shields and the trophy rack.

Archon with retinue in a raider (9 models in a raider) Give her the shadowfield and an agonizer. She is meant to die so dont pump her up too much, Give her NORMAL troops as a retinue, they are also meant to die.

Wych Dracon with retinue in a raider (9 models in a raider) Same story here, normal wyches with no upgrades, give the dracon an agonizer.

3 Ravagers I prefer 2 disintegrators and a dark lance on each.

This list gives you 14 tanks and 110 troops. You are a space marine minus one toughness and plus one initiative. It is deadly and fast. We can talk tactics later.

Logan Vader
28-01-2008, 17:06
Gotta sell my Necrons and will look for a new bad guy army. My first choice would be DE but the issue is the possibility of a new codex and new models it would be premature for me to get involved.

I got a bad feeling they are going to really get their teeth pulled all the more in the new codex, which would be a major shame.

Codsticker
28-01-2008, 17:32
I considered collecting a 1500 pt. DE army many months back. Since they didn't seem very popular I thought that I might be able to pick some up on ebay cheap. Alas, I was mistaken...:(

gitburna
28-01-2008, 18:28
Ive had a dark eldar army since they were released and im very fond of it [in an evil, whip it when its bad, feeding it souls and killing any usurpers kind of way]

Anyway, i struggled at first too, particulalrly in some games against marines where i couldnt believe i was losing in combat, however i soon got the hang of things and i feel the army has developed into one of my strongest now, particulalrly against GEQs. Tau are where i struggle, there long range, higher strength weaponry sinks raiders fast, even faster than normal, and they are mobile enough to get out of the way. i play a mixed list of a few squads on foot backed up by a talos, and a few squads on raiders. I also originally tended to take a lot of Incubi, but over time i have come to realise that the lack of fleet of foot and 3 for 1 cost of Incubi quickly leads them to being ineffective, although i do find that theyre essential for dispatching MEQs quickly.

They also have the most useless unit in the game, Hellions, which is a real shame because the models are quite cool. Really Hellions, how rubbish though? rapid fire, +1 strength on the charge huge models, 5+ save, for the same points i pick mandrakes every single time.

Which leads me on to mandrakes. I dispute those who say they're rubbish. Though they are poor vs marines in the numbers i use thm [a 6 man squad]. i usually get them to charge a key shooty unit , what might on a higher level of complexity be called "unlocking the enemy defences" which then allows me to charge and keep my raiders safe [i find raiders essential for putting damage onto enemy units] Against GEQs i find that the choice of 3 areas to assault, no casualties as they assault, and the good combat stats make them win most of the fights i send them into, so much so i often now give them a flank to tackle by themselves allowing all my other units to fight the other flank.

As for models, i dont mind the Warriors at all. There are enough of the good heads and weapons to avoid the naffer ones, and the spikes and blades are better when appied in moderation. A simple paintjob helps as well, some of the ones in the codex are awful Metallic blues, golds, greens Bleh!

The choice of heavyweapon models is poor though, as is the selection for Mandrakes, Grotesques and Warpbeasts [all of which have the added misfortune of having some really awful models] I got around this to a minor extent by doing a bit of conversion.

Definitely an army where a flattering paintjob needs to be applied, but they can look very effective if done right.

Grazzy
28-01-2008, 18:32
Since they didn't seem very popular I thought that I might be able to pick some up on ebay cheap. Alas, I was mistaken...:(

Odd isnt it?. I thought they would be cheap too, but a quick search showed me i could save more on marines.

MacDeath
28-01-2008, 23:56
Honestly, the DE models aren't that bad, and not nearly as bad as people make them out to be.


That would be something of a subjective matter, wouldn't it?

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=B&Img=251462

Not really... :o

They have some pretty good minis but half of the good ones are minis that don't get lots of play in the usual lists (Scourges). As was already said, if you want to be competitive in most scenarios you are very limited in army builds.

Dark Eldar: Hard to play and harder paint and model them to look cool...

But let's look on the bright side: GW's sculpting has been getting better and better and when the DE finally get new sculpts they should be awesome!

.H.
29-01-2008, 00:02
Odd isnt it?. I thought they would be cheap too, but a quick search showed me i could save more on marines.

I think it's probably related to the fact that few LGS stock DE, at least around here. The store i frequent has about four Ravager boxes and one Battleforce.

Another fairly big store around here has perhaps half that many.

Frankly, i'll be all over DE when they redo them, as i love their concept. On the one hand most of the models are clown shoes and also i don't feel like making an army to have it be nerfed in 6 months.

Baaltharus
29-01-2008, 00:31
DE really aren't that hard to play, take something like Yades list and with a little cover hopping and shooting you'll win 9/10 games with minimal thought processes required.

Captain Micha
29-01-2008, 01:08
From what I can gather De's biggest advantage is that they have a very small player base, and that their army plays out unlike any other. Which automatically gives them a large advantage against most opponents, especially ones that tool against meqs.

As far as a gaming reputation goes? Rare elusive and hard to find.

Sludgehammer
29-01-2008, 01:10
I've been playing Dark Eldar for 6 years
they were my first army (not a good choice to begin the hobby)
I would like to give my personal experiences, etc about the units and army in a whole
---
HQ
Archon-a pretty good HQ unit-I always give them an Agoniser and Shadow Field, sometimes combat drugs too...some don't take them (instead they take two Dracons) but Archon's are better to me and I take Haemonculi instead
Dracons-generally a meh unit to me, if its low points Ill take one but that's it
Haemonculi- a personal favorite, the scissor hands are my favorite weapon-4 attacks on the charge, wound on 2+ gotta like that, toughness 4 too! and the destructor's are devistating say combined with a jetbike
Incubi-deadly unit-power armour clad, 25 pts a piece and slow as dirt
but awesome none the less
ELITES
Grotesques
a personal favorite for me, and have gotten more useful since 4th ed-as you put them in front of say incubi and the enemy has to keep taking leadership tests. and if he fails he can't hurt them unless he has str 6 weapons.
they are also mean in close combat too, I like to put them on a raider with a Haemonculi, and throw them at something mediocre.
Wyches-amazing close combat unit! but they are just as slow as everything else while moving (even if they have fleet) on a raider they get shot down. I usually deep strike the raider with the behind something then fly out 12 then deploy
usually works
Warp Beasts- an odd unit, helpful if they reach combat-the beasts have strength 5 and the beastmaster has an agoniser which is handy
kinda expensive though
Mandrakes-not really good at all them. more annoying-the enemy always worries about them then realizes they're crap-I take them just to annoy
TROOPS
Warriors-good unit, can have up to 20 guys. and 2 splinter cannons-love that weapon, my favorite weapon in the game! can go on raiders too
and 2 splinter cannons there too
Raider-rather underestimated, with armour 10, though fast and the dark lance, makes this little thing rather dangerous
FAST ATTACK
Jetbikes-rather expensive and a target, special weapons are short ranged. I don't take them usually
Hellions-now mostly useless as the rapid fire rules changed
I like the models and the concept
HEAVY SUPPORT
Ravager-raider with 11, 11, 10 and three dark lances
its a good tank moving 12 and firing all its weapons
Scourges-A nasty unit. jump packs, 4 splinter cannons (16 shots a turn!)
whats not to like
Talos-a great piece of work, though vulnerable to heavy weapons-though not Mind War (as it has no leadership) and the D6 power weapon attacks
very nice

well there's my summery-hope y'all enjoyed

khorne808
29-01-2008, 01:30
to tell you the plane old reason is that most people are gubers. they want the most beefed up things in the game like space marines are one of the most deadly troop units out there on 1 on 1 it's pretty hard to beat one down. dark eldar is not like that you have to think about the moves a step or 2 before you make them because most gubers just run at you or just stay and shoot. one more thing i can think of why people don't really like to play with dark eldar cause they lose and gubers don't like to lose they want to win

Sludgehammer
29-01-2008, 01:32
well I don't like playing "gubers" hence why my interest in playing has gone down in years, I did a mock space marine army, to make fun of the gubers
:P

Captain Micha
29-01-2008, 01:39
I play Bts, as far as I'm concerned I don't actually play Space Marines. (seeing as how they got mocked by a great many people for being to crappy to be marines) It's always fun beating someone with what is more or less a slightly over nerfed army (no devastators... ... .... nuff said... .... ..... ) especially when they are running the cheesiest lists in the game. (ass can marines with devastator elites... need I say more)

Sludgehammer
29-01-2008, 01:43
I chose units which are cool, I am not that good at playing. Its just a game and it always bugs me how people take it so seriously.
To me its a hobby, a past time, something I enjoy
I don't go to tournaments because the atmosphere is always so well power gamers everywhere
and I don't like it
best I ever do is best sportsman
as I take loosing well :lol:

Aurynator
29-01-2008, 04:24
Sludgehammer, a few things about your analysis on the DE units.

First is that Grotesques dont force anyone to roll any leadership, if you win the combat, the enemy unit flees no matter what. It even states that no leadership roll is in the equation, meaning that fearless units should flee automatically as the GBG states that by being fearless units automatically pass leadership rolls.. but with no roll ever tossed, they should flee (RAW states that at least, although this might not be the post to argue about this particular rule)

Second, The way you use wyches boggles me. Ive played for a few years and i just dont get how deepstrike behind a terrain piece can help you better than just turbo boost through a webway portal, or just from normal deployment zone. Deepstrike can cause to to scatter out of the board, or into another enemy unit thus destroying the unit.


Fourth Ravagers cannot move 12" and shoot three darklances as fast vehicles can only shoot their main weapon and all defense weapons if they go past 6". so your best option is to upgrade two to disintegrators and use the alternative attack mode (s4 ap3 heavy 3), thus giving you one S8 lance and 6 s4 shots.

Five, You cannot put two splinter cannons on a raider. The raider squad can only have one of the darklance/splinter cannon upgrades. And as raiders are dedicated transports they cant lift any other unit than the one they are designated to.


Six, Scourges are jump infantry, they are forced to roll dangerous terrain every time they enter buildings, they have T3 and 5+ save... they are too fragile and cost the same as a SM terminator.


and finally seven. Talos is the only unit that can be forced to roll 3 dangerous terrain tests a turn, and thus one failed can resault in 100 point unit dead. Its forced to roll if it starts in difficult terrain, when it moves in difficult terrain, and if it charges in difficult terrain. all in all 50% of it loosing a wound if it attacks something deep in cover. plus only 6 inch move per turn is too slow.

Dragon10
29-01-2008, 05:22
Sludgehammer, a few things about your analysis on the DE units.

THANK YOU!!!!

I thought I was going to have to go in there and point that all out.

you did miss one though

Warp beasts are only str 4 not str 5

The_Outsider
29-01-2008, 10:57
and finally seven. Talos is the only unit that can be forced to roll 3 dangerous terrain tests a turn, and thus one failed can resault in 100 point unit dead. Its forced to roll if it starts in difficult terrain, when it moves in difficult terrain, and if it charges in difficult terrain. all in all 50% of it loosing a wound if it attacks something deep in cover. plus only 6 inch move per turn is too slow.

The true secret to the talos is the fact that its a CC heavy support choice - much like the wraithlord.

Realise why and you'll see that even if it doesn't do anything (literally) its still worth well over the 100 points you spend on it.

LordFulgrim
29-01-2008, 11:43
DE were my very first army when I started playing and it took me a while to get the hang of them. Yes I also received the warning that "you shouldn't start with them it's difficult" but I like a challenge.
The reason I stopped playing was because the DE got overlooked by GW; every army has been updated except for DE (not if you don't count the update version with vehicle upgrades) and the models are just horribly outdated in my opinion.
I'm really looking forward to the new Codex so I hope it will not be disappointing.

The_Outsider
29-01-2008, 12:25
DE were my very first army when I started playing and it took me a while to get the hang of them. Yes I also received the warning that "you shouldn't start with them it's difficult" but I like a challenge.
The reason I stopped playing was because the DE got overlooked by GW; every army has been updated except for DE (not if you don't count the update version with vehicle upgrades) and the models are just horribly outdated in my opinion.
I'm really looking forward to the new Codex so I hope it will not be disappointing.

[Precision mode on]

Technically they had 2 updates - the first merely added the vehicle upgrades - the second is the codex as we see it now.

[Precision mode off]

SirKronoss
29-01-2008, 13:26
Dark Eldar have a bad reputation, no denying that. Thay are one of the most unpopular armies (well they are the most unpopular to be precise) in 40k and you rarely see anyone with them, whether at your local GW or tournament.

They are widely thoguht of by the community to be one of the worst armies to collect, and a large factor of this is how they are said to be hard to play, especially in competitive enviroments.

For example, I went to GW earlier this week to kick-start my Dark Eldar collection. I was talking to the manager of the store about what he'd recomend to me as a good base and in the space of about 5 minutes had warned me about how they are such a hard army to play well, numerous times.

Another example is in the introduction of the codex and on the GW site: "make no mistake, they are not an easy army to use but in the rigth hands can be an almost unstoppable opponent" (approximated).

People say that in the right hands Dark Eldar are a deadly opponent, which could be said for any army, but they are crakced up to be one of the hardest armies to play overall. Sure they only have a basic 5+ save but so do regular eldar and guard. Sure their "tanks" have front armour of 11 but they can move considerably faster then those of any other armies.

My question to you is what gives DE their reputation as being such a hard army to play?


Well I actually would like to quote lots of you guys since I have played my Dark Eldars for over 8 years now and they have raised over 6000points playing em in every tournament I been on . . . And the solution in the reputation as being hard to play is true, I read one person saying ~ I read the Codex and aren’t hard to play at all... Well simply Dark Eldars aren’t closest to be the easiest army in WH40k and yes they are on of the Hardest armies ie Tau were hard to play in the beginning until people understood how to play Tau or read "guides" or "ideas" that now have penetrated the Tau players Minds and all is set to Mech Tau or Ordinary Shooty Tau with Crisis, only that all Dark Eldar players are to “evil and grim” to either share their ideas or so do they give up to early on the army, we need to share our ideas even if it hurts to trust another DE since were the only team that are Distrustful allies to our own race, as it should be:evilgrin:. As said DE are not hard to play if you stick with the old method of using 10 - 20 warriors in run-rush teams getting 2 SC or DL + some Blaster or Shredder or 10 man strong warriors on raiders with SC or DL...+ an Sybraite with agonisers or poisoned blades, throphyrack. > Dont ever think about doing that with DarkEldars, it wont work in the end, just a coupple of games vs some opponents army lists but not all the time.

Wych cults are okay, if you solve the nack with low anti tank ability. (Anti tank I don’t count giving wyches x2 blasters, haywire grenades + or succubus with agoniser and HG killing vechiles is wasing their time and effort on killing pff baah totally a waste of wych-energy) give each Wych squad an Raiders armed with either an DL or an Disintegrator (preferable DL) and don’t forget that in a wych army to take many warp beast squads (even if some ppl dislike their looks, but somehow I like em, must be that they have never penetrated my skin and made me bleed as the rest of my army) also take Warriors as your only Elite choice + that youll give em a raider.

This is Dark Eldar army List (I wont tell you mine but you’ll get some hints)

The Lord (Only for Kabal)
As ALL Dark Eldar players have done wrong, before thinking in other ways, im amused that one person in this topic actually was close to the truth speaking about Heamonculus and Single unit Lord.

This is what you should do with your Lord and what you should avoid.

Remember that Jetbikes gives permanent +1S +1T not (+1T) read FaQ. It also provides 12" Move, Turboboost Special rule (sadly we don’t have monopoly on turboboost anymore)

Remember that Hellions are much cheaper in points and gives +1 Sv, 12" Move, 5+ Jink Save, Deep Strike.

Putting an Heamonculus on a Jetbike will provide him with S4 and T5, 2W an Lord will get S4 and T4, and normally 3W, question: what is wounds when your only Shadow Field breaks down? So instead of having alot of saves to roll on your poor 2+ Shadow Field maximize T or Capability of your HQ so that it don’t get to many hits on it, remember that getting T will increase the Lords chance vs Powerarmour armies that Warhammer40k often is about.

Forget about the incredible expensive Incubis that Yes can beat ~ those 10 marines in close combat, but making the rest of the army weak cause you spend time and points on your overpowered Retinue + Lord and its not the very effective way to play DarkEldars... test it around 10 times and face different opponents and you’ll see that you’ll fail your task... Since you’ll either pay to much attention and/or time in getting your Lord in C.C and either running on foot protecting them with what you have or using a Raider to get em quickly forward (a dangerous risky work, that often come up with an destroyed raider) Your point with your Lord is to get him 100% sure into CloseCombat since althought new armies can Gunfight with their leaders (as Eldar Autarch) you as an Dark Eldar cant gunfight and cant afford too lose your Lord or his Retinue (if any) since if they die before C.C they have failed their tasks, and you should never get a 50/50 % chance in getting him in C.C you should always be 100% sure before you enters play.

> Also remember that you can maximum have 2 Incubi master in a Dark Eldar army and if you put them on a Hellion Skyboard this will be your two only 2+ armour saves. While the Shadow field will be the only 2+ inv.save

The Lord in your Army:
Put your Lord or Heamonculus on either Hellion Skyboard or an Jetbike. Of course give your main HQ Shadowfield, Combatdrugs and if on Jetbike give the lord a Power weapon (don’t think about Agoniser its not that often you’ll face an Wraithlord, Carnifex, Talos or other 7+ T creatures) or Scissorhands, only for HeamonC (if thats your Purpose to wound on 2+ but without ignoring armoursave, I prefer to use the Lord that gives anti armour save) or put them on a Hellion skyboard and provide them with an Punisher and Tormentor helmet ofc. Combatdrugs and Animus Vitae (+1 WS, +1S) to provide (ex the Archon/Drachon Lord) WS 7/6 (S6 after a while, C.Drugs +1S, AnimusV +1 S, +1WS, Punisher +1S) 6 attacks on charge [+1 Twoweapons, > SplinterPistol Helmet ~Tormentorhelmet) [+1 Charge] [+1 A C.Drugs if you really wanna push your luck, but ignore this one and take > that always get reroll any misses in C.C, or as i said push your luck and go 3 drugs, but often go 1-2 drugs instead] = Marine Killer

Heamonculus is also fun since you can either put as told before on Skyboard 4+sv "for suicide beacon with destructor" or Jetbike giving him higher T protection from harm, + giving him scissorhands and destructor "random d6 that should be rolled low think about it as your playing a terminator (roll1)"
Stinger can be awesome if you succed.

I suggest you use the Lord (Drachon or Archon) as main HQ and if 2nd HQ use Heamonculus to get Heamonculus Weapons. Like Destructor,Stinger,Scissorhands. Either go with em solo or in group. Either on foot or on Skyboard,Jetbike.

Heamonculus on Skyboard with Destructor only 55p for Marine killer flamer... if your "un"lucky. with the dice (rolls low)

Quick Army Reefer List:

Mandrakes – 15p, same stats as a Warrior, Always gets into close combat. . . Suggestion: Take something else to fill their purpose or wait until GW takes away the Special Character rule from Decapitator that makes him Unique instead (read ie: NewOrkCodex for more info).
Grotesques: attach a Heamonculus to their Squad. Give a Raider to them, but instead of mounting on the raider you’ll often have to walk as a front liner with them instead. I don’t know why so many says Grotesques are worthless ;) they do their purpose in being meat shields pretty well I think
Warpbeasts: Sure use em, easy way getting a cheap Agoniser, just remember too never attack ppl behind cover.
Wyches: make them 10 woman/man strong unit and put them on a Raider, don’t get haywire grenades since it’s too expensive (+4p model), and I already told you to not focus wyches on vehicles. Always take wych weapons, plasma grenades are your choice.
Transport: Raider: Weak fragile 10/10/10 open topped but only 55p for a Dark Lance on a Skimmer. Hell yeah! use it and love it as your anti tank vehicle.
Warriors: Your main anti tank squads: give em DL. Or well if you want make big 20ppl squad with SC and Sybraites with Agonisers, even if I have some bad memories with those. Also see R.A.T.S (at the end of this message)
Hellion Skyboards: Put your effort on something better. Otherwise if you insist well get some Agoniser to the Succubus and well attach 1 blasters to the squad.
ReaverJetbikes: Well I personal don’t use em anymore, even if you can make small 3 squads with 2 blasters, for 25p+ each they aren’t worth using anymore, hopefully they get cheaper in the update since we lost both Turboboost rule for ourselves and our mounted splinterrifles aren’t to start an celebration for. Suggestion: Put your effort on something else if your not 100% in what your putting yourself into.
Scourges: Awesome Warriors with Jumppacks? I don’t think so forget about Scourges 16p for a Fast “still rapidfire haven’t been updated by GW yet ” Rifle Warrior and 36p for a SplinterCannon and well I 41p for a Dark lance that’s a HeavyWeapon. Who the hell will use that? On this weak fragile unit that costs often cost 240p-275p. or if you want 166p for only RifleJumpWarriors with Sybraite + some weapons of your choice.
Talos: Reliable but Slow. Ok to use if you use it correct , as with Portal or vs Enemies that often have to charge as Tyranids or just to Tank your dmg away from your normal troops.
Ravanger: Marine Killer with x3 Disintegrators that sust: shots (S4 AP3) or Normal S7 AP2 Blast. But as always remember the fragile armour of I can be used in Warhammer 40k in 40 min…

;)… Remember that it’s not what your unit kills that counts, its what their purpose are and what they do for the rest of the Army. Sacrifices are always needed to accomplish goals. Also remember that a fully unupgraded unit can still also accomplish your specified goals.

Weapon Quick List:
The only notice I want to do is the Shredder that is always more expensive then the Blaster normally the blaster is 5p and the Shredder 15p.
Shredder is Rng: 12” S6 AP- Assault1 Blast
Blaster is Rng: 12” S8 AP2 Assault1 Lance rule
So point is Blasters is ok to use in squads ie; wych squads. Shredders are not! Only good vs Swarm armies like ie: Ordinary Tyranids.

Also one of the last things, how to solve that DarkEldars can’t have Infiltrators?
"Easy" well wrong word at wrong place anyways gets Kroot mercenaries as I did... Telling you Huge Information about my army now ; I have 1 VultureSquad with Eviserator + Blood of the Stalker this gives them a max 18” away from the enemy when I Infiltrate or in good opportunities 12” away + Blood of the Stalker D6” closer before the game starts. And when its your turn Vulture squads can fly 12” and Assault 6”. So well remember that you can chose to attack more then one unit, same goes vs vechiles if you can target both. (Like 2 Whirlwinds extremely close to each other behind a big building. (Your Kroots will easily wreck those on your first turn)

At last my Hint for the day, a little part of my army:
This is my own invention R.A.T.S = Raider Anti Tank Squads
Consist: 5 Warriors, 1 Dark Lance, 1 Raider = 105p (tactic: drop off/start with the squad in your zone or keep them on the Raider and move them to a suitable place)
My : Troop1 to Troop 6 are R.A.T.S
and thats 630p on 8 Dark Lances. 30 Bodies and 6 Vehiles.

Feel free to comment R.A.T.S

(maybee i show my whole or more of my armylist someday)

Yes Dark Eldars are one of the most dangerous armies ever created.



Sluurp I love to wreck your pathetic faith and suck your soul closer to the dark depths of Commoragh, it almost itches in my fingers when I write so consumed by the glorious dark town Commoragh will you become after I laid my fingers on your heart.

The_Outsider
29-01-2008, 13:29
So.......basically incubi are rubbish despite being one of the BEST troop killers in the game?

Aurynator
29-01-2008, 13:54
I like Incubi, but i like wyches better, personally i think they are too expensive. No fleet ruins those awesome combat ability and good armour. I would think they were much better if they had a 4+ save but could fleet. then i would always take them.

SirKronoss
29-01-2008, 13:59
So.......basically incubi are rubbish despite being one of the BEST troop killers in the game?

Incubis yes are good troop killers that I admit, I just don't think its fair enough to only use Incubis as your only way to play DarkEldars, I have used Incubis for a long time full man squads down to minimum squads with diffrent types of wargear such as mentioned before 2+ sv on Incubi master with and without special weapons such as blasters or shredders. (bad choice to use Blasters in a incubi squad since you almost never shoots anyways, and your splinter pistol is still something atleast)

Remember that every Incubi is 25p + Plasma grenades. Incubi Master aint always needed even if you can give him wargear.

Also remember what i told about not being 100% in getting your Lord into CloseCombat + that yes the fact that they can take alot of damage before they die, but some Ordnance and your blasted into pieces leaving your lord with his 2+ Inv.save leaving him alone left, if you havnt equipped both your Lord and your incubi master (if any) with an hellion skyboard you can start moving if only those 2 are left alive (if not hit by AP2 ordnance such as Demolishers, then you have to rely on 5+ jink save on I.master)

Despite that fact if you take a Raider how will you possible protect it swooping forward on the battlefield? Starting behind a building and only moving 12" and 2" disembark? pretty much a waste if thet cant get into c.c. and / or if your lucky and get first turn but you cant rely on your gaming in having luck with the dices! ... or is it that way you play so well go for it, but i doubt it will work forever...

Well okay: Incubis can fight if you get em down with Webway portal, but well it takes time. And time is something you cant always rely on when you often play for ~6 turns. Ofc getting 2 squads of Reaverjetbikes with Webway and turboboosting first turn will prob. get the incubis to emerge from the portal, but remember that you roll reserves rolls to get them out. So its still taking time if your unluckie, and the enemy have time to focus on other things and or moving away from the portal.

My suggestion is easily Don't use the Retinue all the time since it can slows your Lord down. Test giving your Lord an Jetbike or Hellion Skyboard before you say that your against it.
Otherwise Lord + Incubi Retinue is fearsome, but remeber that your enemy fears them, and will draw his or her attantion against them.

Bloodknight
29-01-2008, 14:08
I think Incubi are overkill, actually. They are too strong for their own good and often slaughter the opposition completely in the DE turn. I prefer my enemies to die in theirs ^^. Wyches are better at that style of fighting.

@the_outsider: how many do you use? I used 9 when I still took them but I guess something along the lines of 5 would be more useful.

@Sir Kronoss: the trick is to buy the Incubi retinue for a really cheap Dracon, not the Archon. That way your best killer does not carry his own speedbump around.

Oh, and Reavers cannot take the WWP; Hellions may only take one blaster and Haemonculi cannot take power weapons, they are restricted to Haemi only weapons :)

The_Outsider
29-01-2008, 14:32
Archon + 5 incubi is what I use. I did use to use more but they did kill too much - 5 is the right number (however they aren't so good at absorbing damage - not that much will be left alive to strike back!).

Very rarely can they not take well over double their points cost (or numbers) in infantry.

SirKronoss
29-01-2008, 14:41
I think Incubi are overkill, actually. They are too strong for their own good and often slaughter the opposition completely in the DE turn. I prefer my enemies to die in theirs ^^. Wyches are better at that style of fighting.

@Sir Kronoss: the trick is to buy the Incubi retinue for a really cheap Dracon, not the Archon. That way your best killer does not carry his own speedbump around.

Oh, and Reavers cannot take the WWP; Hellions may only take one blaster and Haemonculi cannot take power weapons, they are restricted to Haemi only weapons :)



Yeah as i mention in my earlier replys why take 3W (Archon) model since if your Shadowfield brakes your as good as dead anyways so yes i use Drachon to save some points, but recently archon become more of a choice thanks to 1 point higher Initiative.. worth 25 more points? naah but like i roll sometimes it feels like an adrenaline glant from tyranids biomorphlist would be usefull on the lord 2 ;)

Haven't read the FaQ about reaver jetbikes that cannot take WWP. But i know it now.

Hellions ops my mistake, yes only one blaster wrote 2 cause i wrote about jetbikes at the same time. Will edit that.

Haemonculus... yeah should put more of a statement that i mean the Lord and not the heamonculus on some places since i say both but says powerweapon i mean for the lord and not heamonculus anyways it can be confusing. Will edit that.

Bloodknight
29-01-2008, 14:46
Well, I always buy the Archon because he hits most characters on 3+ and has one attack more than the Dracon. I think +1WS +1I and +1A are well worth the 25 points. Don't care about the wound, though...once the field is gone he's dead anyway :).