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Commander Dante
15-01-2008, 11:57
Well obviously Horus was not the Primarch for the job, so who would have been a better option?

Persoanly i would have gone with Sanguius because Horus said Sanguinus deserved the job and was the only Primarch that shared the Emperors true vision for humanity.

DantesInferno
15-01-2008, 12:20
Well obviously Horus was not the Primarch for the job, so who would have been a better option?

Nah, Horus was still the best Primarch for the job. Although we now know with the benefit of hindsight that things didn't end up turning out well, it shouldn't detract from how immensely well qualified Horus was for the job. In terms of overall tactical and strategic abilities, he was without peer amongst the Primarchs. Not to mention his keen psychological insights, and his talents for persuasion and diplomacy.

pookie
15-01-2008, 12:20
agreed it should have been Sanguinius, but i suspect the choice of Warmaster was more down to Horus being a slightly more 'favoured' son than because he was the best of the Primachs.

stormblade
15-01-2008, 12:23
Lion perhaps- he seemed to be sufficiently devoted.

OrlyggJafnakol
15-01-2008, 12:24
Guilliman would have had my choice. Sensible. Organised.

Commander Dante
15-01-2008, 12:25
Nah, Horus was still the best Primarch for the job. Although we now know with the benefit of hindsight that things didn't end up turning out well, it shouldn't detract from how immensely well qualified Horus was for the job. In terms of overall tactical and strategic abilities, he was without peer amongst the Primarchs. Not to mention his keen psychological insights, and his talents for persuasion and diplomacy.

Not Nessisarily according to the Raven Gaurd IA, Corax was responsible for most of Horus's victories, Horus just took the credit which resulted the two to fight.

Dark Seraphs
15-01-2008, 12:29
Like Horus said himself in the novel "False Gods" and I got to agree with him, the best one for the job was Sanguinius, he wasn't maybe the best militery wise, but he had the heart and soul of every other Primarch.

When Black Roses Bloom
15-01-2008, 12:36
Well, whoever was named "Warmaster" he would have been contacted by chaos in sone way. It might not have been in a form of a cult that cured a mortal wound from a battle, placing the seed of chaos inside him, but it would have contacted him nevertheless. And after all, Horus, did betrayed his father in Egyptian mythology, so there is really a defined pattern :p

stormblade
15-01-2008, 12:41
Didn't Horus avenge his father in Egyptian mythology?

Commander Dante
15-01-2008, 12:44
yes he did Black Roses got it backwards

When Black Roses Bloom
15-01-2008, 12:45
Well.... you got my point :p

nazrag
15-01-2008, 12:55
I actually think Dorn would have done a decent job, or Alpharius..

mick005usa
15-01-2008, 12:59
Sanguinius, without a doubt. His bit against Chaos in the artbook, everybody loved him, what more do you want?

Plus the vampires will take you if you disagree!

Wolflord Havoc
15-01-2008, 13:12
Sanguinious was the best Primarch, he was the most respected among his peers and if the title of 'warmaster' was to issued during a time of peace.....well then he was the obvious choice.

However the Emperor wanted a WARmaster and none had the tally of victories to match Horus with only the Wolf and the Lion's own tally of victories coming even remotely as close.

Horus was the best and most logical choice without the benifit of hindsight and was also the Primarch that the Emperor had spent the most time* with and was therefore the most trusted.

*They had fought Orks back to back!!!!

mick005usa
15-01-2008, 13:30
Tallies of victories are irrelevant. With the benefits of hindsight, Sanguinius is the only clear choice given the magnititude of Horus' failure. Heresy was so vast because Horus commanded complete authority as Warmarster, but was corruptible. I think Sanguinus, of all the Primarchs, would have been most likely to remain uncorrupted and fight the Legions which would have inevitably fallen to Chaos. The Heresy would have been much less divisive if the Warmaster fought FOR the Imperium.

Commander Dante
15-01-2008, 14:01
@Wolflord Havoc
Sangunius was not just a great warrior but he was also a great general like all the other Primarchs, there would be no need for a Warmaster during a time of peace.

@Stormblade: yea....no the Lion IMO was a terrible a Primarch....His own Legion did not respect him, He got what was coming to him when he alienated half of his loyal die hard marines Lion didnt even trust his equals let alone subordanates, makes for a bad leader.

reds8n
15-01-2008, 14:05
Magnus. Fully aware of the seductive lure of Chaos so he wouldn't have turned and the most powerful psyker bar the big E himself.His strange appearence would have led to a more tolerant and understanding Imperium too.

Possibly.:angel:

mick005usa
15-01-2008, 14:21
But Magnus did turn! He was practicing sorcery after Nikea, which the Emperor expressley forbade. Even as a Tratior Warmaster, Magnus could not have measured up to Horus, simply for the reason that he lacked his brother's knack for leadership and good relations with most of their fellows.

Sanguinius is the only Primarch that could rival Horus in popularity. The HH novels have shown that Horus' popularity was instrumental to his sucess and thefore the success of the Crusade after the Emperor's departure. Even the organizational genius of Roboute Guilliman pales in comparison to Sanguinius' potential as a leader and as Warmaster.

mick005usa
15-01-2008, 14:22
Sorry for the double post, but i've noticed that in the previous posts i've made, I have failed to address the issue of possevie pronouns.

Please don't judge me.

Kurisu313
15-01-2008, 14:27
Well, it's kinda meaningless. Even if Horus wasn't promoted, Lorgar was still corrupted. And it was the Word Bearers who were pivotal in bringing Horus to the dark side.

Could any other Primarch have been more loyal? Horus was the favoured son, after all.

Just be grateful Angron or Curze weren't the warmaster....*shudder*

reds8n
15-01-2008, 14:30
But Magnus did turn! He was practicing sorcery after Nikea, which the Emperor expressley forbade. Even as a Tratior Warmaster, Magnus could not have measured up to Horus, simply for the reason that he lacked his brother's knack for leadership and good relations with most of their fellows.
.


And he used that sorcery to try and save Horus from falling. I agree the Emperor forbade the study of it, but let's face it, for a supreme being type dude he made a lot of bad calls really, half his kids tried to kill him.:p

The Heresy novels seem to paint a much less rosy picture of the Primarch fraternity than many say, although I'll grant you Horus did seem to be the most popular.

Poor old Magnus was really pretty blameless ( well..if you discount breaking the wards on the Golden Throne by accident, but I'd say even that was,again, the big E's fault for keeping secrets) and was forced to turn to chaos after that crude Barbarian Russ and his furries turned up to trash his homeworld.

Still in the end I suppose this was all just part of Tzeentch's convoluted plan, that rascal.

Commander Dante
15-01-2008, 14:34
Sanguinus would have stayed loyal i think, he didnt turn when he was fighting Horus. Sanguinus would have probably listened to Magnus, and Lorgar was not very popular...

Skyriss
15-01-2008, 14:35
Curze would have been an awesome Warmaster...


What we should all remember here is that had another Primarch been named Warmaster, who is to say that the Chaos Gods would not simply have seduced him instead of Horus?



"Sanguinius was weak and Sanguinius was a fool! He had the whole galaxy within his grasp, and he let it slip away..."
- attributed to a Captain of the Black Angels (formerly Blood Angels) 10,000 years after the Sanguinius Heresy, alternate 40k future no. 53753

Commander Dante
15-01-2008, 14:41
Curze would have been an awesome Warmaster...


What we should all remember here is that had another Primarch been named Warmaster, who is to say that the Chaos Gods would not simply have seduced him instead of Horus?



"Sanguinius was weak and Sanguinius was a fool! He had the whole galaxy within his grasp, and he let it slip away..."
- attributed to a Captain of the Black Angels (formerly Blood Angels) 10,000 years after the Sanguinius Heresy, alternate 40k future no. 53753

Sanguinus also had the power forsight! he would have attempted to stop it if he really cared for the Imperium which he did... alternate univereses are lame! For all we know the Imperium of man would be an Imperium or Orks..or Tau

ryng_sting
15-01-2008, 17:04
Horus's tally was highest, but his criteria for victory were lax compared to other Legions - especially Guilliman's Ultramarines. Typically, Horus's Legion rushed to break the back of the enemy force, left, and dumped the rest on the other Legions - such as rebellions over food and water shortages stemming from Horus's haste. It's also suggested that his tally owed as much to the unsung labours of the Raven Guard and Iron Warriors as to his own merits.

Magnus was warned about sorcery, how it corrupts, how you can never be sure of who's getting the better end of the deal. So it was with Magnus: he who received a vision mentioning everything but his own fate, whose message conveniently halts the Webway project, distracts the Emperor, and whose fabled foresight (and his legion's sensory equipment) mysteriously failed him and his legion right before the Space Wolves were about to launch their assailt. Face the facts - Magnus was Tzeentch's bitch all the way.

Brother Siccarius
15-01-2008, 17:12
Not Nessisarily according to the Raven Gaurd IA, Corax was responsible for most of Horus's victories, Horus just took the credit which resulted the two to fight.

Warmaster wasn't about victories, and we know from HH novels that that snippet isn't true. Warmaster was about being able to keep the other primarchs in line, and focus the Great Crusade. Horus was the only one capable of keeping the other primarchs in line, especially Angron. The only problem, in hindsight, came from the fact that while he was good at psychology, he also had a psychologist's natural paranoia. So when the Emperor gets up and leaves without telling his sons just what he's doing, it's a bit more natural for Horus to see the problems coming from Terra (Taxation of newly conquered territories, a religion based around the Emperor, opposition to Marines, uncertain future, ect.) as coming directly from the Emperor.



Magnus was warned about sorcery, how it corrupts, how you can never be sure of who's getting the better end of the deal. So it was with Magnus: he who received a vision mentioning everything but his own fate, whose message conveniently halts the Webway project, distracts the Emperor, and whose fabled foresight (and his legion's sensory equipment) mysteriously failed him and his legion right before the Space Wolves were about to launch their assailt. Face the facts - Magnus was Tzeentch's bitch all the way.

Doesn't stop it from being any less a tragic fate. The guy only wanted to do the best for the Emperor, and ended up dooming him to a life on the golden throne before Horus even turned.

Norminator
15-01-2008, 17:25
Guilliman all the way. A tactical and organisational genius; he would have revolutionised the coming Imperium. The problem I see with Horus is that he was very much a crusade man - perfect at barreling across the galaxy, but a soldier and little more at heart. Guilliman, as well as being an amazing warrior and leader, also had the capabilities to set up a solid foundation for a future, stable Empire - something that I really can't see Horus or even Sanguinus being capable of.

Guilliman also strikes me as being a lot better at keeping the other Primarchs under control than Horus. Horus let personal friendships cloud his judgement, whilst Guilliman (I feel) would have been a lot more objective with the situation. Sanguinius didn't turn traitor (again, in my opinion) due to loyalty to his father - Guilliman I think didn't turn more as it was the right thing to do, not because of allegiances to Horus or the Emperor.

If you want proof of how successful the Imperium would be under Guilliman, don't take my word for it - look at Ultramar. And also remember that were it not for him crossing the galaxy several times and holding the borders the Imperium would have probably collapsed soon after the Heresy afterwards.

heretics bane
15-01-2008, 18:26
But Magnus did turn! He was practicing sorcery after Nikea, which the Emperor expressley forbade. Even as a Tratior Warmaster, Magnus could not have measured up to Horus, simply for the reason that he lacked his brother's knack for leadership and good relations with most of their fellows.

Yes because the the emporer sent russ to "retrive" him but in newer fluff was told by horus to destory the thousand sons, they turned because of horus not because he diliberatly wanted to.
How could be sure that Magnus did'nt have a good knack at leading men? you/we dont remember magnus (in my book) was alot smarter than say, Gulliman. If the emporer hadnt have ticked of the Tsons he would have a very powerful allie who could lead the the human race as it became more pysker populated and could have developed far better means of cummunication and even a better astronomican and wouldnt have let alot of useful tech get lost/destoryed and if he and Gulliman had both worked togeather for the codex astartes it would have been far better than it is.

Luckywallace
15-01-2008, 18:46
I totally back Guilliman. For the reasons everyone has said pretty much.

But it would have been amusing/horrific if Angron or Konrad Cruz had got the job.

Lord Raneus
15-01-2008, 18:50
Guillman, because of the absolutely flippin' unbelievable job he did of holding the Imperium together after the Heresy.

Also, I seem to recall one of Horus's main problems was that he was so close to the Emperor and that the Emperor was witholding something from him. Guillman wasn't as close, I think, so this wouldn't be a problem.

Vive Ultramar!

Kveld-Ulf
15-01-2008, 19:00
Well, it's kinda meaningless. Even if Horus wasn't promoted, Lorgar was still corrupted. And it was the Word Bearers who were pivotal in bringing Horus to the dark side.

Could any other Primarch have been more loyal? Horus was the favoured son, after all.

Just be grateful Angron or Curze weren't the warmaster....*shudder*

I could understand that Angron would be one of the worst Warmasters, but not Kurze.

Kurze has very close similarities with Vlad Drakul in that although he ruled through fear, and had a perverse fascination with killing/torturing people he did rule fairly. Kurze would have never let there be any chance of rebellion by first crushing the spirit of the people, and then reinforcing the laws and ideals of the Imperium. They'd regain their spirit through fervor for the Imperium. It's also not really established if he was "evil". He did after all let that assassin kill him in the end.

Norminator
15-01-2008, 19:09
I could understand that Angron would be one of the worst Warmasters, but not Kurze.

Kurze has very close similarities with Vlad Drakul in that although he ruled through fear, and had a perverse fascination with killing/torturing people he did rule fairly. Kurze would have never let there be any chance of rebellion by first crushing the spirit of the people, and then reinforcing the laws and ideals of the Imperium. They'd regain their spirit through fervor for the Imperium. It's also not really established if he was "evil". He did after all let that assassin kill him in the end.

I could actually imagine Kurze's Imperium being very similar to today's Imperium, albeit without so much of the religious dogma.

Wikhed
15-01-2008, 19:14
Leman Russ should've been the Warmaster ;)

The_Warsmith
15-01-2008, 19:21
I actually think Dorn would have done a decent job, or Alpharius..


if Dorn where made warmaster Perturabo would have turned traitor there and then, lorgar would have followed him and BOOM! same heresy, different reasons :p

Fulgrim's Gimp
15-01-2008, 19:36
Lorgar should have been warmaster prior to his falling. He should also have been allowed to spread the Lecitatio Divinatus, he would still be a religious nutter,but, he would have been the Imperium's religious nutter.Unify his brethren through faith.

redbaron998
15-01-2008, 19:38
Well in all honesty, it should have been Horus.

One must remember that Horus wasnt only picked due to his victory count. He had some other things going for him as well, including have a good relationship with some of the more...unusall of his brothers like Angron and Mortation (sp?) Someone like Guillium would never be able to relate to them.

So I would say, like Horus himself said, Sanginius (sp?). Horus point against him was that he wouldnt be able to handle the sacrifce, for example if you needed the Exterminatus a planet with a bunch of good people on it, Sanginuses(sp?) morals wouldnt allow that.

Other than him I would say Magnus, if you know your fluff you know he and the 1k sons would never have turned if it wasnt for 1. The Emperors thick headedness 2. Horus tricking the Space Wolves to attack them and 3. The Space Wolves thick headedness that resulted in them not listening to the 1k sons when they attacked.

He was also the only Primarch who knew of the threat that Chaos was and had the best understanding of the Warp.

Usopreme
15-01-2008, 20:22
Im surprised that only one other person thinks that Russ should have been warmaster, he was the only primarch to beat the emperor in two challenges, so what if he was a drunken brawler.

Commander Dante
15-01-2008, 20:31
Guilliman all the way. A tactical and organisational genius; he would have revolutionised the coming Imperium. The problem I see with Horus is that he was very much a crusade man - perfect at barreling across the galaxy, but a soldier and little more at heart. Guilliman, as well as being an amazing warrior and leader, also had the capabilities to set up a solid foundation for a future, stable Empire - something that I really can't see Horus or even Sanguinus being capable of.

Guilliman also strikes me as being a lot better at keeping the other Primarchs under control than Horus. Horus let personal friendships cloud his judgement, whilst Guilliman (I feel) would have been a lot more objective with the situation. Sanguinius didn't turn traitor (again, in my opinion) due to loyalty to his father - Guilliman I think didn't turn more as it was the right thing to do, not because of allegiances to Horus or the Emperor.

If you want proof of how successful the Imperium would be under Guilliman, don't take my word for it - look at Ultramar. And also remember that were it not for him crossing the galaxy several times and holding the borders the Imperium would have probably collapsed soon after the Heresy afterwards.

Guilliman was the one responsible for what the Imperium it is currently! he was the one that set down the milirary organisation, and i dont thing ultramar is the gem that is made out to be, its ****** as the rest of the Imperium even more so due to the tyranic wars.

Norminator
15-01-2008, 20:34
Guilliman was the one responsible for what the Imperium it is currently! he was the one that set down the milirary organisation, and i dont thing ultramar is the gem that is made out to be, its ****** as the rest of the Imperium even more so due to the tyranic wars.

The Imperium is as bad as it is because he and the other Primarchs all croaked it. The reason for the religious dogma and oppression is the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition repressing everyone, not Guilliman making it so. As far as I know he was against the Lecto Divinitas as much as all the other Primarchs.

Wikhed
15-01-2008, 20:48
Russ would've been a good Warmaster. The amount of brutality involved in Space Wolves and their suspicion of anything to do with the warp. Would've been better at prosecuting the crusade.

downundercadet07
15-01-2008, 21:03
I think it is obvious.

The choice to elevate ANYONE to warmaster was catastrophically idiotic. The big E threw out thousands of years of military organizational theory with that choice. Such a rookie mistake. He should have remained with the crusade until it was complete, and then focused his attention elsewhere. Basic.

As much as I like Sanguinus, he is my favorite primarch, there is a simple reason why Magnus and himself were not chosen. Because they are mutants, and psykers at that. The warmaster had to be a champion of humanity, the most perfect paragon of our race. And someone from a brutally suppressed minority probably doesn't fit that bill.

jb85
15-01-2008, 21:04
Think there are a few too many people answering this as who is your favourite Primarch rather than who would make the best Warmaster. It is highly doubtful for example, that Russ would have had the diplomatic or psychological abilities to successfully manage the 17 other Primarchs and the myriad of other organisations under the Imperium’s banner.

Lord Raneus
15-01-2008, 21:31
Psychological ability? Yes.

Diplomatic ability? No. :D

CELS
15-01-2008, 21:45
Sanguinius. Guilliman might have had the knowledge and wisdom to run the Imperium, but Sanguinius had charisme, whereas other Primarchs inevitably formed hostile relationship with some of the other Primarchs.

As for saying that the Emperor shouldn't have made anyone Warmaster at all, I think that's just plain silly. Bureaucracy and splitting of power is one of the things that led to the Horus Heresy. The Space Marines all wanted a single leader, and they wanted the Emperor. When he couldn't give them leadership, they needed another leader, not a council or anything like that. Although if the Emperor hadn't made Horus warmaster, the heresy would probably not have happened [so soon], and so the Emperor wouldn't have been forced to retire from the Crusade in order to finish his preperations on Terra... Oh well.

downundercadet07
15-01-2008, 22:11
So how is it silly? The emperor could have given them all the leadership they needed.

Leadership is about creating a vision that your followers can find hope and motivation in, and laying down a plan for how to achieve that. The fundamental plan the emperor had was that the space marines were a tool for accomplishing his own vision: he never enfranchised them as a part of it. They were always an unfortunate means to an end: not true humans, they weren't part of his hope for humanity.

That, fundamentally was why there was a heresy. Putting these prodigals under the command of one of their own: a man who could be a true father to them, a man who COULDN'T divorce them from his own dreams because they were one and the same, that was the ultimate act of hubris, and of pride. He assumed that Horus could not love anything as much as he loved the Emperor and the Emperor's vision of humanity. Arrogant. Foolish. Weak.

Londinium
15-01-2008, 22:22
I totally back Guilliman. For the reasons everyone has said pretty much.

But it would have been amusing/horrific if Angron or Konrad Cruz had got the job.


According to the Heresy novels, Angron was actually quite pissy that he didn't get the job of Warmaster, a little tidbit that never ceases to amuse me :D I really call into question the Emperor accepting him as leader of the World Eaters mind, the other Primarches might have had flaws but they were hidden underneath before the Heresy, Angron was always a nutter plain and simple from the moment the Emperor stole him from his gladiators and he lost his one guiding cause, from that moment onwards there was nothing for him but killing, and the Emperor put him in charge of a legion...baffling.

LexxBomb
15-01-2008, 22:47
personaly i think the Warmaster should have been Commander of the Pretorian Guard not a Primarch

Supremearchmarshal
15-01-2008, 22:50
Ollanius Pius would make the best Warmaster.

The Anarchist
15-01-2008, 23:23
ok i may be stating the obvious but during the crusade when the Big E was leading it, the number of people who could command a Primarch was; the Big E, possibly Malcador the Stigalite......... so when the Emperor he could have left the Primarchs to get on with it, they were far more intrested in the crusade than any power plays up untill the Big E actualy names a Warmaster! if he ahd left them they would ahve continued their great crusade, and only ever come into conflict if more than one Primarch was in the same warzone. even in this case a natural order would establish itself, wether it be the senior most, more respected, most skilled at a certain area Primarch.

however if Big Cheese had to name a Warmaster his options must ahve gone something like this;

Lion'El Jonson; All around good Primarch, no major disputes with his brothers except battle feild rivalry with Russ and Horus. he was willing to do ahrd things when the time called, however possible insecure, and so unable to reach true unity among his brothers, shown as with his own legion. Had he been Warmaster probably would have casued trouble among his brothers, and led to some sort of rekoning, though not in the same scale or style as the HH

unknowen primarch.

Fulgrim; an out and out perfectionist, whilst at first a possible good Warmaster, perfectionists always see too many flaws. might cause trouble or discord among his brothers, also slow down actions that need to be taken quickly possible. If made Warmaster may have been to difficult to work with all the time though, also possible weak link in his over Zeleous perfectionism, may have lead to some sort of a weakness to the powers of Chaos.........this could ahve meant he was dealt with on his own, or he may have led some though not many of his brothers with him into chaos= small Fulgrim Herasy.

Peterabo; a man willing to do whatever is needed or must be done. however one that didnt have the required level of admiration and respect of his brothers. also lacking the interpersonal skills needed for negotiation and other actions than warfare. if made Warmaster, no heresy, but he would have led the disunified Pirmarchs, and so not a viable option.

Jahital Khan; a great crusader, whilst liekd by most of his brothers he wasn't able to unify them in the way of a great leader. if made Warmaster may have fallen to chaos due to tribal practices thought this seems unlikly. probably not a heresy as he would ahve let his brothers do as they saw fit, and only directed the largest of actions...so a possibility though not a great choice.

Leman Russ; a brutal warrior that lived by a code, able to lead men and well liked by most of his brothers even if they dont understand his methods. however lacking many of the non-war skills such as diplomacy and subtlety for the post of Warmaster. this man is the quintisential Primarch, a good leader, warrior and son. but not able to unify billions under one banner with words AND deeds. If Warmaster things would ahve stayed much the same, each Primarch leading his own men and decideing his own course. mostly making the post of Warmaster unessecary.

Rogal Dorn; A good soldier, follows orders and clings to his traditions. possible contender for Warmaster, but his relation with certain other Primarchs would cause strife if he was raised to high. so not a good option. If Warmaster likely a Heresy woudl follow, but on a much smaller and personal scale, one the Emperor may have been able to personaly solve if he got off his throne.

Konrad Curze; not acceptable to many Primarchs, and too often used as tool to be elevated to such high office. also likly not to be acceptable to many normal citiznes of the newly forming Imperium, the over kill of such a brutal regime would be totaly fair, but too harsh. If made Warmaster likly to ahve kept his brothers together and loyal to the throne by letting each do as he wishes rpoviding he does forfill Konrads over all plans, but may ahve casued a rebelion among the huddled mass's fo the new Imperium who are unwilling to abide by his rules. on the other hand he may ahve turned his brothers aganst him personaly with his actions....only going to end one way, sooner or alter he will be defeated by a brother or removed from power by the Big cheese. also he was open to Chaos in that he may ahve found it usefull, even if he didnt serve it he would use it....leading to Chaos lol.

Sanguinius; a perfect choice for Warmaster, powerfull, loved and skilled. possible only passed over due to his being winged and so not being a perfect pargon of physical humanity, or the Big E jsut wating his longest serving son in the job? If made warmaster unlikly to have been a heresy, though some Primarchs may have turned to Chaos and had to be dealt with....can't relay say though. also would Sangunius have been willing to do the hard deeds, even if aganst his own brothers.........

Ferrus Mannus; to simple a Primarch, wanted to get the job done, didnt possess the diplomacy or pure aura to lead his brothers and unite the scattered humans across the stars. if made Warmaster can't see much changing from when the Emperor left, on the other hand don't see him causing a heresy either by hius elevation or actions, may ahve got some grummbles but thats about it.

unknowen

Angron; too blunt an instrument, always willing to kill first and talk later. not a viable option to unify mankind whilst Emperor away. Just not an option for Warmaster.

Robute Guilliman; a good tactician, stratigist and commander. but just not able to elad his brother in a mroe than nominal way. yes he does hold the Imperium together in the end, but only by breaking up power so it can't be abused, sadly also over dilution neuters any chance the Imperium has of ever reaching such power again. he created the Imperium of today, weakend, hypocritical and blindly using its power. a warmaster should have done more. he was not the equall as a leader of Horus, Sangunius or even the Lion, he was meerly the best organised and straight thinking, and so good for rebuilding. If made Warmaster; very unlikly to be a Heresy, as he is a good leader and option for Warmaster, though deffinatly not a great or inspired leader. on the other hand might have been the Gulliman Heresy, which is i the story section and very very entertaining.

Mortarion; whilst influenced by chaos he despises it, however more than any other Priamrch will ahve victory at any cost. Mortarion would not be able to unify all the Priamrchs and get any concerted action out of them. Mortarion is a good soldier, but not the inspired leader needed to elad the Priamrchs. If made Warmaster i see everything remaining the same, and little chance of Heresy, however mortarion may be manipulatible if he see's his father do somehting he disagree's with, and he would go to any lengths, possible turning his brother with him to correct what ever fault he percives.

Magnus the Red; more knowladgable than anyone but Emperor about Chaos, but more open to manipulation than any other. if made Warmaster would probably make more efforts in the way of social growth and learning for the Imperium. however not as good as many of his brother in the area of battle and leading the way in a galaxy spanning war of unification. sooner or alter he would also have been manipulated or fallen to chaos and so lead to some sort of Heresy, though wether it would include so many of his brothers is questionable as he jsut didnt ahve the Charisma or adoration of enough of them o sway them to chaos.

Horus;....................well we all know how that went. still could have gone very differntly.

Lorgar; fundamental differnce of belifs with the Emperor, he just wasn't an option for the Emperor. though we know he can be quite persuasive whe he wants to be, though he wasnt highly liked or respected by his brother Primarchs. also his battle feild succsess didnt measure up to many of his brothers for skill at war, he was too busy with worshiping a man who didnt want it, and then powers that craved it.

Vulkan; not much knowen about him, he was a good primarch with very belevible honesty in that he is willing to fight his brother Horus on command. If made Warmaster he probably would ahve been alright....but nothing great to set him apart from any other Primarch.

Corax; a great stratigist and warrior willing to do hard thngs when the time calls, but his tacturn manner meant he possesed the skills but not the charisma to unify the primarchs and the mass's of humanity in the new Imperium.

Alpharius; A perfect choice for Warmaster, he's a mini-Horus, and very skiled at all things. though he miss's to things the respect of his brother due to lack of time leading his legion and the number of succsess this grants. also he his loyal only to himself and possiblely Horus, being to loyal to another Primarch makes him an empty title to the real power of Horus. he also lacks personal loyalty to the Big E, its questionable he even meets him! If made Warmaster he would have remaiend loyal unless Horus could be turned first or at the same time, as a loyal Horus would strike down his protege if he displayed any signs of Heresy.

so in finality the major options were the Lion, Horus, Gulliman and Sangunius. The Emeror choose probably the best all around option, though we all know how it ends.

txamil
16-01-2008, 00:11
I'll throw Jaghatai Khan into the mix for feedback purposes.

Baltar
16-01-2008, 00:18
That, fundamentally was why there was a heresy. Putting these prodigals under the command of one of their own: a man who could be a true father to them, a man who COULDN'T divorce them from his own dreams because they were one and the same, that was the ultimate act of hubris, and of pride. He assumed that Horus could not love anything as much as he loved the Emperor and the Emperor's vision of humanity. Arrogant. Foolish. Weak.

You are being a little bit over dramatic here. Its true enough that the Emperor was using the Space Marines to achieve his own goals, but his goals were for everyone's good. Acting as though the Emperor was wrong to want to protect billions of humans rather than cater to a self important group of dullard warriors is missing the point.

The fault really lies in the Space Marines' own disloyalty and stupidity. They wanted attention and love and to be made to feel special...they refused to know their role and act it out. They wanted to be treated like Gods.

Horus used the anger and feeling of abandonment that the Space Marines felt to use them for his own gain, coated with a veneer of "this is what is good for humanity." He exposed himself as a rapacious thug who couldn't stand toe to toe with the true master of Mankind, and now his soul rests in oblivion for his mistake.

The Emperor was using the Space Marines for the betterment of who the Great Crusade was really all about - the normal people of the Imperium. If you think the Space Marines weren't going to be given a place of honor when it was over, you are a bit off here.

Ghost Of Caliban
16-01-2008, 00:56
Think there are a few too many people answering this as who is your favourite Primarch rather than who would make the best Warmaster. It is highly doubtful for example, that Russ would have had the diplomatic or psychological abilities to successfully manage the 17 other Primarchs and the myriad of other organisations under the Imperiumís banner.

*19 primarchs going by fluff...II & XI also took part in the crusade...

SpaceLanceCorporal
16-01-2008, 02:29
FERRUS MANUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't need to explain his virtue to the likes of you!!!

Commander Dante
16-01-2008, 02:53
FERRUS MANUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't need to explain his virtue to the likes of you!!!

im pretty sure you have too...;):cheese:

Brothergrimm
16-01-2008, 02:59
Vulkan For his level headed approach if nothing else. The crusade would have being a century or three longer but there would have being less mistakes made.

Johnnyfrej
16-01-2008, 05:10
I believe Horus said that Calgar was just as qualified as he was but felt the Emperor chose him because he was the favorite.

Champsguy
16-01-2008, 05:29
Just looking over the most likely choices, most all of them have faults (as I see them, anyway). We've really got 4 groups of Primarchs: possible Warmasters; ones we don't know a whole lot about or are simply unremarkable; poor choices; and the "hell no!" group.

Hell No!:
These are the guys that you know from the start is a terrible decision. Not just no, but hell no! Like saying "I'll be right back" in a horror movie, this is a recipe for disaster.

Angron is a lunatic. He's like Jack Nicholson's character in The Shining. The first time you see him onscreen, you say "This guy is a *********** psychopath." Not a good choice for Warmaster.

Kurze likewise is already getting slaps on the wrist from the Emperor before the Heresy even takes place. Making him Warmaster is like leaving Charlie Sheen alone with your teenage daughter and your stash of coke. It's a "what did you expect?"

Alpharius is the total new guy who nobody knows (this is different from the class of Primarchs that WE don't know much about -- presumably, the guys at the time knew a lot about Khan and the others, but Alpharius was unknown even to his fellows). You don't put the mysterious new guy with no connections to anyone in charge of the group. "Hi there, person I've never seen before. Please lead my group of heretofore loyal and obedient supersoldiers and conquer the galaxy in your obviously unwavering loyalty to me."

Mortarion is the chronic depressed guy who doesn't get along with anyone. Asking him to be Warmaster is like asking the goth kid in class to lead everyone. Not only do the others not trust/like him, but he doesn't seem to like anyone else.

Lorgar is the religious nut. He's like Tom Cruise. Not cool "Top Gun" Tom Cruise, but crazy Oprah couch-jumping Scientology Tom Cruise. He also sat around converting people to religion instead of conquering planets.

It's no real coincidence that all these guys turned to Chaos. They were the most obvious.

Poor choices:
These guys aren't necessarily terrible choices, they just have some glaring flaws. They aren't as obviously bad choices as the first group, but they still aren't good.

Russ is a... boisterous soul who takes some getting used to. As popular as Russ is amongst the fans, chances are you'd hate this guy in real life. Leman Russ is like Ogre from Revenge of the Nerds. He's the guy who gets drunk, starts a fight at your house, and then throws up in your car on his way out to find another place to drink. Fun character, bad leader.

Dorn is a stiff, and he takes himself way too seriously. He also comes with baggage, in that he seriously can't stand one of the other Primarchs. You don't want those sorts of problems to spring up. You want a Primarch that gets along with everyone, not a guy who is obsessed with being better than someone he's supposed to be leading. There's no questioning his loyalty, or his skill. But it's a personality problem with him. He's too competitive.

Fulgrim, as was said before, is a perfectionist. The problem with perfectionists is that its a pain in the ass to work with them. They aren't good leaders. They micromanage, they don't trust their subordinates.

Magnus is the psyker. As loyal as he seemed, he's still the one most likely to be mistrusted. You want a Warmaster who can inspire. Magnus, whatever his motives or the eventual outcome, would never have the full support of the rest of the Primarchs.

Unknown/Unremarkable
We just don't know enough about Khan, Corax, Vulkan, and Primarchs II and XI. We're left only with small pieces of info (if that) about what they did. We don't really have a clear picture of their personalities, or in some cases, even what they looked like. It would, however, be fun to see the Emperor shout "Khaaaaaan!!!" in his best William Shatner impersonation.

Mannus and Perturabo don't really have anything wrong with them, they're just... unremarkable. These are very average Primarchs. They aren't especially well loved, or well respected, or... anything. We know more about them than we do Vulkan, Khan, and Corax, but they're still just joe average as far as Primarchs go. There's no reason to pick them.

Possible Warmasters:
Here we're down to the contenders. The others are just varying degrees of either "no" or "meh". These are the ones that might actually have a shot at the title.

Horus is the golden boy. He's successful. He's smart. He's loyal. He's the star of the football team who is also President of the student council, and has a scholarship to MIT. On top of that, he goes to church and helps out in the community. There's never been any sign of weakness or jealousy. He is widely respected. He even reaches out and is nice to the nerdy kid, the fat kid, and the guy who smells bad. He is (without benefit of hindsight) the perfect choice. There's a reason he was the Emperor's favorite son.

Guilleman is a brilliant leader and an organizational wizard. He's undoubtedly qualified for the job. His military skills are unquestioned, and he's a genius bureaucrat. This is the guy in 7th grade who could tell you who the 12th Vice President of the United States was (even if you grew up in England). The only real knock on Guilleman is that he's smarter than you, he knows it, and he wants to be sure that you know it as well. He also won't associate with the ugly Primarchs. To put it another way, Guilleman is smart, he's rich, and he's white. In a movie, he'd be the preppy ******* country club guy named Todd who drives a Ferrari. Yes, he's going to be President some day, but unless you're also smart, and rich, and white, he doesn't want anything to do with you.

The Lion is an ******* as well. Tactically, he's possibly even more brilliant than Guilleman. He's an incredible strategist. He's just not friendly. At all. While Guilleman is the preppy prick with the entourage of preppy prick friends who snubs the hero and steals the girl (only to get it in the end), El'Jonson is more the brilliant loner. He never seems as concerned with little things like "making friends". He's the guy who, when drunken Leman Russ throws up in HIS car, goes outside and beats the crap out of him. He's not rude to our hero because the hero isn't rich, or smart, or white enough. He's rude to our hero because that's how he is to everyone. He's Terrell Owens. While he's a brilliant strategist, and his loyalty isn't really questioned (don't count that novel), you need someone a little more... peppy and happy.

Sanguinius has a latent curse. While he's beautiful and pure, loyal beyond reproach and selfless as can be, he's cursed. Did the Emperor see it? Remember, he IS a vampire, for all intents and purposes. Sanguinius, I would see as having warning signs to keep away from him. Sure, he's flawless and wonderful NOW, but what happens when that curse fully manifests? Can you trust him then? Ironically, Horus ended up being the one to turn traitor, but no one could have known that at the time.

superknijn
16-01-2008, 06:08
Horus was the best Primarch of them all. It's just that he became severly disappointed in his father, and so got new benefactors. Before that, however, he was the best Primarch for the job. Guilleman would perhaps even be better, if he didn't tell everyone how to behave, even before the HH. He's like the stereotypical spoiled rich kid who likes to order people arround anhd get his way with everything, even though he doesn't have to and is smart enough to get things done otherwise. Brilliant guy, you just don't want to see him leading your Great Crusade.

Wolflord Havoc
16-01-2008, 07:47
Im surprised that only one other person thinks that Russ should have been warmaster, he was the only primarch to beat the emperor in two challenges, so what if he was a drunken brawler.

What? You would put a drunken Braggart in charge? :eek:

<Wolf Lord Havoc does a quick look back at Britains history of highly sucessful drunken Braggarts being in charge>

Okay I'm in - Russ it is :angel:

BrainFireBob
16-01-2008, 09:22
Another vote for Horus. Look at the question from the other side, as well: Who would the other Primarchs accept?

Because of his tally of victories, Russ and the Lion (albeit reluctantly in the latter case) will accept him. So will Angron and Mortarian.

Because of his deft handling of both politics and military matters, and willingness to acknowledge his own limits (read: Stroke egos), Guilliman would accept him.

Because he's such an all-around stand-up guy, Sanguinius accepts him.

Dorn would accept anyone but Perturabo and possibly Kurze. Perturabo, at least, returns the favor. This excludes all three as candidates.

Alpharius would accept anyone not Guilliman.

Manus and Fulgrim are both perfectionists. This isn't inspiring leadership, and doesn't let you work well with your brothers. More, putting either of that dream duo over the other could spark a potential rivalry as bitter as that between Alpharius and Guilliman, or maybe make their bond even stronger. Risky, risky.

Vulkan and Corax were too self-effacing.

The Khan, by elimination, would have been a superb choice. Except Horus also got on well with the problem children, such as Angron, superbly.

Russ, and some others, would never, ever abide Magnus.

Lorgar wasn't acceptable to the Emperor.

Kurze was superb, but unstable. Too risky.



Horus also works by looking at who is acceptable all around.

stevenr1230
16-01-2008, 10:43
im also gonna throw russes hat into the ring

who needs diplomatic skills and thinky power if u can turn the great crusade into the biggest **** off since new years 2001

Pete278
16-01-2008, 13:00
Alpharius was actually loyal to the Emperor, he just hated Guilliman more. To be honest, I'd probably turn evil if I had a legion of elite infiltration experts and some guy kept saying I was never going to be as good as him. He pushed his men further than they could go, and they became probably the most elite of the Legions. I mean really, sending them into a vastly outnumbered situation, then disappearing before the fight and forcing the men to think for themselves, anyone who comes out of that is going to be rather elite.

Rockerfella
16-01-2008, 13:06
Who should have been Warmaster? Well, Horus, of course.

I personally don't think ANY of the other Primarchs, save for maybe Magnus, would have been able to suss out the deception and act any differently than Horus did. I've always viewed Horus as a victim of the circumstances as much as anything else. The circumstances reamin the same, the primarch changes, for me, the result remains the same.

I just don't think the long term result would have been any different that it was, with another primarch as warmaster.

Even if say, Sanguinius was warmaster for example, wouldn'#t mean the other Primarchs respected him moreso than they did Horus.

Would the agents of Chaos have chosen the Warmaster, whomever that may have been? Or would they still have picked Horus?

I dunoo!!

Im not saying1
16-01-2008, 16:51
The finest miliraty mind of all the primarchs - Robute Guilliman. Closely followed by Rogal Dorn.

Londinium
16-01-2008, 17:52
Sanguinius has a latent curse. While he's beautiful and pure, loyal beyond reproach and selfless as can be, he's cursed. Did the Emperor see it? Remember, he IS a vampire, for all intents and purposes. Sanguinius, I would see as having warning signs to keep away from him. Sure, he's flawless and wonderful NOW, but what happens when that curse fully manifests? Can you trust him then? Ironically, Horus ended up being the one to turn traitor, but no one could have known that at the time.

Wha ?!? Sanguinius is not a vampire, the Red Thirst was a consequence of his death and the pyschic damage it did to his legion due to the nature of his death (although recent fluff suggests the confrontation at Signus also contributed to this), and as such is just a total blood lust rather than vampiricism in it's traditional form, of course there are varying degrees of it and theres certainly plenty evidence of Blood Angels that may have slipped into vampiric practices (plus the legions total obession with it and their strange blood transfusion techniques even among those that aren't afflicted by the Thirst in any way) but I see this more of a minor affliction of the Red Thirst, with the BA indulging in blood letting from time to time to keep it at bay and stop the Thirst from taking more of a hold, it's not vampiricism per se and Sanguinius was definitely not a vampire nor affected by the Thirst.

I largely agree with the rest of what you said though.

TheOverlord
16-01-2008, 18:12
I can only imagine Guilliman being warmaster...

Recruits would be shot dead every day for turning left on a right turn on the parade ground...

clanfield
16-01-2008, 20:26
guilliman would make a fine quater master but next to horus wasnt the lion the chap with the second most victorys

Noserenda
16-01-2008, 23:44
I think Horus is by far the best choice, coming a slightly distant second is Sanguinius, their Strengths parallel each other, but whilst Horus might outshine his brother in many things he ultimately lacked his devotion/moral strength.

Plenty of the Primarchs were too flawed or unpopular to be Warmaster, or Outright under-detailed (Including Bizzarely, Horus) but a few other candidates could be Fulgrim, Corax, Russ, Alpharius or Guiliman but I doubt any of them could rally the popular support of the other two.

Freak Ona Leash
17-01-2008, 00:37
I vote Sanguinius. The giant Angel-Vampire...you can almost hear the legions of anime fanboys screaming "YOU STOLE OUR IDEA!"

Minister
18-01-2008, 03:05
Gulliman:
In the turmoil after the Emperor's incarceration he was the one who held the Imperium together, assembling the High Lords and personally reforming the Imperial military from a crusading force to a force which could defend the Imperium, even with over half of it either wiped out or traitor.

Fatidicus:
By placing the power in the hands of inhuman constructs the fate of the Imperium was sealed. Only by putting in place a pure human commander at the apex of a proper military force could humanity have reached its golden age. Faith and purity seal humanity's ascendance.

Promeus:
Even when his fellows turned to their own fears he had the foresight to champion the Resurrection of the Emperor. As one of the Conclave he obviously was not lacking in skill, but had he been given the absolute authority the Emperor would have walked again.

IyandenAvatar
18-01-2008, 14:16
I'll say Perturabo simply because most likely no one has... haven't read one post :evilgrin:

sabreu
18-01-2008, 14:19
I vote for someone other than a Primarch.