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View Full Version : Some weapons being phased out.



mtblock
15-01-2008, 22:38
What weapons do you think are becoming obsolete?

Personally, I think with the new DA Codex and only being allowed one heavy weapon in a Terminator squad, the heavy flamer is becoming next to useless. Any ideas?

PotatoLegs
15-01-2008, 22:46
Well Heavy CCW (choppas etc) are out.

I doubt Heavy Flamers are going though. The concept is still a popular one, and there's still a few platforms other than Terms that use them.

Though I'd have thought Cyclone Missle Launcher would have gone, it seems to be favoured by DW players now despite the one HW per squad.

Arkzein
15-01-2008, 22:52
Plasma pistols seem to have died a death (usually because you can have a plasma/melta gun instead) Can't think of much else, Marine wise you seldom see flame weapons but some folks still carry a torch (ho ho ho ;)) for them.

Scharnhorst
15-01-2008, 22:57
Heavy Flamers are not useless. They are the basis of my Sister of battle squads. Amazing weapons that let me incinerate entire groups of troops at AP1.

Latro_
15-01-2008, 23:10
daemon weapons, They're expensive and rubbish

Ronin_eX
15-01-2008, 23:43
The Heavy Flamer cost one sixth the price of the AssCan in DW squads. Far from useless and I can't see it getting phased out.

Killgore
15-01-2008, 23:52
heavy flamer useless?

i dont think so

with the rise in the populatity of the new orks and considering how cheap points wise they are, heavy flamers are going to become very popular in terminator squads

Nabeshin1106
16-01-2008, 00:11
Heavy Flamers in Deathwing Terminator CC Squads are great. I'm always happy that I've taken when I play a game. Getting in those extra kills can be great, especially when there's a huge squad of Scarabs you need to wade through.

lord_blackfang
16-01-2008, 00:33
daemon weapons, They're expensive and rubbish

I'll take a 5/6 chance to absolutely murderize the entire kill zone and a 1/6 chance of doing nothing over the mediocrity of a pair of lightning claws any day.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
16-01-2008, 00:42
I'll take a 5/6 chance to absolutely murderize the entire kill zone and a 1/6 chance of doing nothing over the mediocrity of a pair of lightning claws any day.

but ... it will also inflict 1W on your lord :/

i'll use one but i'm bit sceptical about it utility. not a big reward forthe risk taken sadly. but at least it is not worthless

new codices plasma pistol, granade launcher can won the 'least used weapon in current edition'

orksorksorks
16-01-2008, 00:44
flamers rule... nuff said. just only on quick things like speeders and assault marines and bikes. heavy flamers are very useful if you use terminators to drop behind enemy lines and go after heavy weapons in cover...

centy
16-01-2008, 01:03
Plasma pistols seem to have died a death (usually because you can have a plasma/melta gun instead) Can't think of much else, Marine wise you seldom see flame weapons but some folks still carry a torch (ho ho ho ;)) for them.

Dude you need to get to get your **** handed to you by a BA player.
Plasma pistols rule for all BA players, 3 to a squad is great.
I also run one combat squad with a flamer and plasma pistol.
On the 2 baal preds i have heavy flamer sponsons for close in flaming death.

I don't see any weapon being phased out just some do not have as many uses as some.
what fails misserably in one army may rule in an other.

Snipafist
16-01-2008, 01:10
but ... it will also inflict 1W on your lord :/


1 wound that doesn't allow armor saves, IIRC. Don't forget your Lord still comes packing a built-in invulnerable save.

No weapons are being phased out other than heavy close combat weapons. Everything else is simply a choice that may be too expensive or too cheap at the moment.

Prophaniti
16-01-2008, 01:30
At least there is some risk in taking a daemon weapon now. It was always a bit of a joke before.

AmKhaibitu
16-01-2008, 02:34
Really? I've witnessed chaos lords in the past fail mastery checks and thus die due to it being their final wound.

max the dog
16-01-2008, 02:51
Heavy flamers next to useless???? Try playing a horde army vrs a bunch of pyrohappy sisters.

SpaceLanceCorporal
16-01-2008, 03:24
All it requires is the basic aglorithm A(allweapons)-E(Eldar weapons)= W(weapons that may be phased out)

zoodog
16-01-2008, 04:43
what does seem to be happening is a general points increase for things with an AP2 tag but that was mostly deserved

Kveld-Ulf
16-01-2008, 05:17
At least there is some risk in taking a daemon weapon now. It was always a bit of a joke before.

Indeed it was. Most people generally forgot the rule existed because it was so pathetic.

I use a Khorne Daemon Weapon myself, and wouldn't have it any other way. Although it may not be perfect, it has great potential. It's also always been a flavorful choice fluff-wise to have a Daemon weapon.

Remoah
16-01-2008, 13:31
Thunderhammers... i rarely, if ever, see these.
Assault Termies are becoming rare, considering your bog-standard termie comes with a Power Fist and 2 attacks they're pretty damn good... now add 2 stormbolter shots that hit BEFORE the enemy can even fathom to hit back.

Shotguns are becoming Obsolete. Scouts rarely take them, Who in thier right mind would give them to stormtroopers, and Veteran Guardsmen work way better as a shooting platform.
Maybe giving the user a +1 BS (to a max of BS-5) when firing so to account for the scatter effect of the shot.

Warsmith Strader
16-01-2008, 13:38
but ... it will also inflict 1W on your lord :/

i'll use one but i'm bit sceptical about it utility. not a big reward forthe risk taken sadly. but at least it is not worthless

new codices plasma pistol, granade launcher can won the 'least used weapon in current edition'

Wow, you must fail your inv saves alot then!

you do get a inv saves against daemon weapons turning on the wielder!

xibo
16-01-2008, 13:55
At least there is some risk in taking a daemon weapon now. It was always a bit of a joke before.
Not to mention that your khorne demon prince of doom had toughness 6 and 4+ feel no pain against perils of the warp, and iirc tzeench had some ignore-potw equipment.


All it requires is the basic aglorithm A(allweapons)-E(Eldar weapons)= W(weapons that may be phased out)
Hmmm a weapon that never is used.... that would be the shuriken crapapult. Outside of WH/SoB I also see only few multi meltas. Mortars and Hunter-seeker missiles are also rare.

StefDa
16-01-2008, 14:05
Plasma pistols seem to have died a death (usually because you can have a plasma/melta gun instead)

I think that's because plasma pistols have recieved a slight points increase, IIRC.


daemon weapons, They're expensive and rubbish

No, far from it. They're Chaos, ie risky, but not rubbish.


I'll take a 5/6 chance to absolutely murderize the entire kill zone and a 1/6 chance of doing nothing over the mediocrity of a pair of lightning claws any day.

The Lord does nothing after suffering a wound from his own Daemon Weapon, yes?


but ... it will also inflict 1W on your lord :/

i'll use one but i'm bit sceptical about it utility. not a big reward forthe risk taken sadly. but at least it is not worthless

new codices plasma pistol, granade launcher can won the 'least used weapon in current edition'

I will take the risk any day. I only need the weapon for one or two rounds of combat, which means the chance of rolling a '1' either of them is small.

Oh, and in my Guard, I use grenade launchers all the time (almost)! Because they have such a long range (being Assault weapons, they keep their 24" for every shot).

charlie_c67
16-01-2008, 14:15
Thunderhammers... i rarely, if ever, see these.
Assault Termies are becoming rare, considering your bog-standard termie comes with a Power Fist and 2 attacks they're pretty damn good... now add 2 stormbolter shots that hit BEFORE the enemy can even fathom to hit back.

Shotguns are becoming Obsolete. Scouts rarely take them, Who in thier right mind would give them to stormtroopers, and Veteran Guardsmen work way better as a shooting platform.


I think that'll change once the deepstrike rules become more friendly to users. TH work in the same way as a power fist with the additional bonus'. And I agree, shotguns really are pointless. For everyone!

Jedi152
16-01-2008, 14:22
I heard the conversion beamer, graviton gun and heavy webber won't be in the new edition! :mad:

Bleedin' GW! :mad: At least i still have my complicated D12 table for hallucinogen grenades!

;) :D

Caboose123
16-01-2008, 17:00
I like this thread :)

Lots of weapons arent really viable any more;
- Anyone remember the autocannon? I dont. Its now called a predator destructor turret cannon. IG sometimes use them, usually they opt for HB or lascannon though
- Heavy Flamer for Sm s, good for witch hunters still...
- Ion cannon; not as good anti-infantry as a submunition and not as good anti tank as the solid shot. Buying a hammerhead and giving it the cheaper option of an ion cannon is seen as a "waste"
- Thunder Hammers, unless the owning player has hammer time and an iPod

Thats all i can think of atm, but im incredibly narrow-minded and my opinion is worth nothing :), anyway, it is MY opinion...

MasterofPuppets
16-01-2008, 17:27
I have to agree with you Caboose. The Ass. Cannon getting rending made the Autocannon obsolete. Why have 2 shots at Strength 7 when you can have 4 shots at Strength 6 with Rending?

The Thunder Hammer also got the "nerf" bat to the head in that it costs more than a powerfist and doesn't really serve the purpose of being able to neutralize a monstrous creature. I remember the days when a Vet. Sergeant could give a Tact Squad a chance against a Bloodthirster and spare his squad a brutal death.

While on that subject of obsolete weapons, does anyone use Krak Grenades anymore? How about Multi-Meltas, Fusion Pistols, or Shruiken Cannons?

bravefew
16-01-2008, 17:33
Shotguns get my vote - never understood why anyone would take them in any situation. Might as well throw a stone. Despite this, GW and Forgeworld keep making models for them so someone somewhere must love them.

Autocannon's are, unfortunately, next on the list - neither fish nor fowl - overkill for troops and underkill for armour.

Finally, meltaguns ( don't play eldar or other races so can't comment on their situation) - great concept but terminally short ranged.

Grazzy
16-01-2008, 17:35
How about Multi-Meltas, Fusion Pistols, or Shruiken Cannons?

Multimeltas are used on my attack bikes, and are used on DA and BA tornados. Fusion pistols are rare, but shruiken cannons are used on jetbikes in mech forces.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
16-01-2008, 17:41
Dude you need to get to get your **** handed to you by a BA player.
Plasma pistols rule for all BA players, 3 to a squad is great.
I also run one combat squad with a flamer and plasma pistol.
On the 2 baal preds i have heavy flamer sponsons for close in flaming death.

I disaree with this sentiment. The plasma pistols have become more rare in BA armies if anything, because they increased in price by three times their original amount for normal Assault Squad members. In Veteran Assault Squads, for the price of a plasma pistol you can get a flamer and a meltagun. You're more likely to see regular BA Assault Squads naked except for a power fist and 45 points for a trio of plasma pistols is an excessive waste in a VAS squad.

redbaron998
16-01-2008, 17:41
I like this thread :)

Lots of weapons arent really viable any more;
- Anyone remember the autocannon? I dont. Its now called a predator destructor turret cannon. IG sometimes use them, usually they opt for HB or lascannon though
- Heavy Flamer for Sm s, good for witch hunters still...
- Ion cannon; not as good anti-infantry as a submunition and not as good anti tank as the solid shot. Buying a hammerhead and giving it the cheaper option of an ion cannon is seen as a "waste"
- Thunder Hammers, unless the owning player has hammer time and an iPod

Thats all i can think of atm, but im incredibly narrow-minded and my opinion is worth nothing :), anyway, it is MY opinion...

you are entitled to you opinion but I must completely disagree with you.

Autocannon: This is a GREAT weapon and one of the best in the game for light vehicle busting espically things like Ork Trucks (witch we will see more now) and the dreaded Falcon. As for the Assault cannon taking the Autocannon out of the equation dont forget rending is due a bit of a nerf next edition espically in the tank busting catagory.

Heavy Flamers only used on WH? Have you seen ...well any Space Marine CC dreadnought? Almost everyone takes it. The reason there arent a lot of H. Flamers is because there arent a huge amount of things that can take one., mainly because they can be so lethal. 1 shoot can turn an entire game around if well placed.

Ion Cannon: This weapon is better for pure MEQ killing than the Railgun. There are a good number of Tau players who use this. Its just that most put thier anti-meq in Suits and save thier H. Support for anti-vehicle

Thunder Hammers: Thunderhammers are fantastic, though you only really see them on ICs or in Termi Squads. The IC platform is about the best you can give for anti MC killing. The Termi platform is also for Anti MC. (thanks to the Stunning rule thing and their higher invurn save) its just that some players dont like to specialize thier squads that much. Most CC Terminators take a TH for every 2 LCs

Gauthic
16-01-2008, 17:43
The Brightlance is all but extinct here locally due to points cost/performance on BS3 platforms.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
16-01-2008, 17:46
To be fair, a lot of people take heavy flamers on Dreadnoughts because they're only competing with storm bolters.

Thunder hammers are no more "fantastic" than power fists. They are somewhat better in niche circumstances and cost a bit more regardless.

Although I agree that the autocannon is a good weapon. But only in multiples which makes Imperial Guard the best army for them. It's hardly a weapon fit for a tank.

Grazzy
16-01-2008, 17:53
The autocannon is great in some line squads. I find a mix of las, heavy bolter and autocannon does the trick.

superknijn
16-01-2008, 18:00
I love autocannons, wether on Predators, in IG squads, carried by Chaos Marines or as a co-axial weapon on a Baneblade. High strength, 2 shots, love it.

Heavy flamers are also nice to have when you get close. Heck, when playing CoD, I'd wish every army had them.

Shotguns with S4 are usefull, however. If the next IG Codex has S4 shotguns, I'll immediatly buy some shotgun veterans. Shotgun-armed scouts have become rather viable under the newer Marine codices.

Raverrn
16-01-2008, 18:20
Thunderhammers cost just as much as PF in the Daemonhunters codex. Guess which everyone uses?

Firaxin
16-01-2008, 19:07
'Autocannons are remembered as that predator's turret weapon.'

You seem to have forgotten the entire guard army. Just because only one model can take the autocannon in the SM range (which could alternatively use a much better twin-linked BS4 lascannon) doesn't mean its never used by anyone.

xibo
16-01-2008, 19:44
Thunderhammers cost just as much as PF in the Daemonhunters codex. Guess which everyone uses?

Guess what everyone would use if the hammer greyknight/inquisitor models wouldn't look so cool?

silence
16-01-2008, 20:03
autocannon.. yep check, I still have some in my IG.

However, what I don't have is the Autogun or Autopistol, I suppose I could substitute lasguns for them, but realistically they seem to be the forgotten ugly sisters of the autocannon.

Caboose123
16-01-2008, 21:38
Guard sometimes use autocannons, but ive never fought anyone who has, they are alright weapons for guard but lascannons are stronger anti-tank, MLs are versatile, and Heavy Bolters are better anti-infantry.

The Ion Cannon is only better against T4 or T5 3+ save troops, and even then weight of shots due to a submunition can do well enough as well. Battlesuits can take out marines with plasma rifle missile pod combo which is one of the most common combos

Thunderhammers are 15 more points than a power fist on Srgs so they aren't used there. TBH i dont think assault terminators are used a lot anymore, and they come automatically. They are not much better at taking out tanks and i would go for a chainfist myself... Still they look cool! Puts the "hammer" back in warhammer!

Honestly, i dont think the heavy flamer is taken that much on dreads either, its just not worth it. No matter how much you think otherwise the dread is a shooting unit. Its 2 attacks are just good at taking out tanks. If its close enough to be charged its already in trouble. Still, id never get rid of the CCW on him, the ML looks horrible, and its handy just in case

I think some of the above are alright weapons, they just aren't used a lot (EVEN the heavy flamer!) Still you raise some good points and if you think they are used thats great! The rending rule getting nerfed could make the autocannon more viable, but it will probably only get worse against vehicles, maybe an extra D6 armour penetration on a to hit roll of a 6, but back onto pointless weapons

Shotguns with S4 are handy, they are Assault 2 so you can charge for a bucket load of attacks.

Multi-Meltas should be Assault 1 so they would be used on something thats not just a bike/vehicle...

AllisterCaine
17-01-2008, 02:57
phasing out weapons? i dont think so, 40k has a limited variety of weapons as it is, they will either get improved or toned down, not removed.

sabre4190
17-01-2008, 03:21
Ive never used shotguns or played against someone who uses them. The units that can take them no longer need the assault rule, as they dont assault and they can fire twice with rapid fire anyway.

I find flamers extremely useful. For a firebase squad, they can give you that last minute punch., which can work well sometimes. For assault units, they are an amazing way to dish out the hurt. By hitting so many models at a good strength and AP value, they can massacre hordes and even cause a few MEQ casualties.

All in all, i dont see any weapons going away. Players may ignore weapons, but GW will still find ways to make them more appealing through points cost or new rules.

Codsticker
17-01-2008, 06:17
What weapons do you think are becoming obsolete?



I suspect that the lasrifle will be come less of a dom!nant weapon in future editions of 40K.






;)

Thylacine
17-01-2008, 06:27
Obviously you don't play Space Wolves, who can take 2-3 per pack plasma pistols per pack and always have one or two flamers in an army.


Plasma pistols seem to have died a death, Marine wise you seldom see flame weapons but some folks still carry them.

cuda1179
17-01-2008, 06:39
Mortars. I think I am the only Imperial Guard player that uses them.

Shadowphrakt
17-01-2008, 07:09
Mortars. I think I am the only Imperial Guard player that uses them.

I think that is just in your area that nobody uses them...it seems to vary from place to place. In the Edinburgh GW almost nobody uses heavy weapons teams and only a few use support squads, and they are usually mortars. Harass the enemy with low AP weapons!

I think that Eldar support platforms are being less and less used, i dont think ive seen anyone use them..
As for marines, in the new DA and BA codex, i think that people are taking plasma guns less..due to combat squads special rule and thecheaper option of a melta gun

MeltaBombed
17-01-2008, 07:52
Master of puppets:

While on that subject of obsolete weapons, does anyone use Krak Grenades anymore? How about Multi-Meltas, Fusion Pistols, or Shruiken Cannons?

Im still using Multimeltas im my developing SM army, though mainly for fluff reasons. I also have never seen anyone take Krak grenades since, well, ever....

Bunnahabhain
17-01-2008, 14:23
I frequently use Krak Grenades. Great for anti-skimmer work. S 6, 24" range, assualt weapon. But that's only as I'm mad, and use grende lunchers for fluff reasons, where an extra 2pts buys me a plasma gun on the same model. Give Krak grenades AP3, and they'll become more common. Yes GW, there is something between AP4 and AP2, although you seem to have forgotton about it....

Hand held Kraks? Never. They're overpriced and ineffective. If you only have a few hits, they have to count, so it's either melta bombs, or 40k's equivilent of Duct tape, the veteran segeant with a power fist ( Ie people will try and use to fix anything, and it will work a large amount of the time....)

Meriwether
17-01-2008, 15:38
I heard the conversion beamer, graviton gun and heavy webber won't be in the new edition! :mad:

...not to mention the 'goo bomb', the 'buzzer squig grenade, the 'squig catapult', the 'hop-splat field gun', 'rad missiles', 'vortex missiles', and the dreaded 'virus grenade'...

The weapon I hope gets phased back _in_ to regular 40K is the vortex grenade -- it did such a good job of moderating hero-hammer, just by allowing each army to take up to one for 50 points.

*prays feverently that 5th Ed has strategems, and one of them is 'vortex grenade'... ...but doesn't hold his breath...*

Meri

Latro_
18-01-2008, 00:26
I forgot one

Grotzookas, they'v only been officially out 6 days, but they're already gonna be phased out.
hehe why would you ever bother putting one on a killa kan.

on the flip side,
power mauls, webpistols and heavy webbers... guns which 'have' been phased out. Back in those days you could make alot of armies that could battle the enemy and not actually inflict any long term damage on their foes hehe.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
18-01-2008, 03:26
Hand Flamers

[besides grotzooka is awersome, and i would have al least 1 in any ork army with KK(K)]