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logosloki
16-01-2008, 05:53
I know people are pretty sick of chaos threads but I'm opening this one up to see if my logic for icons works.

One of the things I have noticed is that, with some exceptions, GW is moving away from "upgrade X to have Y for Zpts/model" thinking. But Part of chaos, the Marks system relies completely on this system to operate. The unit selection the Codex for Chaos space marines would of been a lot larger than it is if they had a marks heading saying Mark of <insert>for<insert>pts/model. Obviously something would have to replace this.

First, and this is just a guess, they would of just thought of making a flat points cost, regardless of how many models, thats what you would pay. This idea is very sound but has one fatal flaw. It would sound like to any non-chaos player that the chaos marines would be getting a big freebie, bigger than the already complained about CCW, BP and bolter package, that idea was out. Someone also noticed that almost no-one bought the chaos icon in the old list. and so the concept of icon was born.

The thing about the icon rule is two-fold: It gives chaos players the old marks at a set price, and can be used as a demonic summon homer. The problem is now, what happens when someone kills it. problem with icons because when its gone, so is the bonus associated with it. And thats the problem I have with it.

Hows my logic so far?

This can be expanded to cover why units that should have marks (possessed, Chosen and terminators) still have to take icons.

Now, as a follow on, this is why the generic demons are, well, generic. Its a triple whammy for demons, because they can't take the icon because 1) they couldn't have marks in their pity box, it would make attention to the lack of marks in the rest of the book, and because of the variable size, someone may complain that bigger units got some for nothing, 2) by rules-mechanic they could actually lose the patronage of the god that created them to be an aspect of him and 3) The most imprtant one: It would mean that by rules mechanic demons can act, in the next turn as anchors for others to follow on, because remember the icon is also the demon homer.

So, all up, does this explain to everyone why [I believe] Chaos lost icons for marks?

superknijn
16-01-2008, 06:53
So? Chaos powers are fickle, and Marines who are not fully dedicated to their God, can loose their favour, depending on how they perform in battle, they treat their Icon, which way the wind is blowing, or any other mostly random reason. Just being a very kick-ass guy doesn't help you get liked by the Chaos powers anymore.

Also, Generic Daemons can't have Icons in C:CSM, and will probably work differently in the Codex: Daemons, so no worrying there.

And, to top it off, AC's can have squad upgrades it's just very silly to give them special weapons or Icons, as loosing one model (by Torrent of Fire) will then impact the squads effectiveness even more. If AC's couldn't have unit options, it would make Chosen AC's rather useless, wouldn't it?

Sepharen
16-01-2008, 07:00
I also think you're missing what I feel is likely another reason for the current arrangement of Icons rather than Marks; encouraging large units.

Say for X points you can have two units of five, one of which has an icon. For those same points, you can have a unit of ten that all benefit from that icon. It seems to be a reverse of the effect of the combat squad rule from Dark Angels and a way to further differentiate Chaos Marines from their loyalist counterparts. One benefits from a smaller number of large units, whilst the other gains the advantages of numerous smaller units.

I could be wrong, but I think the choice of moving to icons was one with quite a few factors, most of which you already covered quite well, but I do think encouraging larger units was part of that decision.

logosloki
16-01-2008, 07:10
I also think you're missing what I feel is likely another reason for the current arrangement of Icons rather than Marks; encouraging large units.

Say for X points you can have two units of five, one of which has an icon. For those same points, you can have a unit of ten that all benefit from that icon. It seems to be a reverse of the effect of the combat squad rule from Dark Angels and a way to further differentiate Chaos Marines from their loyalist counterparts. One benefits from a smaller number of large units, whilst the other gains the advantages of numerous smaller units.

I could be wrong, but I think the choice of moving to icons was one with quite a few factors, most of which you already covered quite well, but I do think encouraging larger units was part of that decision.


I think I did cover that in my opening post.

...First, and this is just a guess, they would of just thought of making a flat points cost, regardless of how many models, thats what you would pay. This idea is very sound but has one fatal flaw. It would sound like to any non-chaos player that the chaos marines would be getting a big freebie, bigger than the already complained about CCW, BP and bolter package, that idea was out.....

The reason I stated this is that they could of just done a flat points cost so that larger units would benefit from the mark but they didn't implement it in the end because there quite possibly be massive ammounts of troops who not only get a CCW in addition to a Boltpistol and boltgun but also would of got something percieved as "something for nothing".


Also, Generic Daemons can't have Icons in C:CSM, and will probably work differently in the Codex: Daemons, so no worrying there.
I did address this in the final part of my post by reasoning why they can't take icons,they should of just been able to buy marks for the price that normal chaos marines buy icons and been done with it. It is a shame though since the new demon boxed sets will be made to accomadate WFB and W40k.

Nurgling Chieftain
16-01-2008, 07:21
The second problem is that the AC can't take it (its a squad option and the AC is a character, if someone proves that wrong in this thread then ima giving all my ACs either flamers or meltaguns, cause that would look awesome), so one of the rank and file takes it.I think the language distinguishing the icon "any model", the characters own options, and the rest of the squad "chaos space marines" allows you to put the icon on the champion but not normal flamers or meltaguns - but it certainly could be more clear. Plus, if characters can't have squad options in that codex, Chosen champions are soooo screwed. :D

logosloki
16-01-2008, 07:38
The codex separates what the character can take vs what the squad can take (the bold headings under the chaos space marine entry are Unit type, Number/squad, Wargear, Character, Icon, Options and Transport). Though you are correct in the fact that the icon actually says one model vs either character or chaos space marine. So maybe I am mistaken in the fact that the AC can take the icon rather than my statement that he/she cannot.

Gorbad Ironclaw
16-01-2008, 07:48
Another factor I don't think you mentioned is that in terms of image and 'feel' icons of chaos are cool. They give you another excuse for modeling a neat looking model, and suit the whole baroque feel of CSMs very well.

And making how the marks work dependent on them means you will get to see more of them, and it also makes it easier to visually identify indibidual squads and there marks(usually), or even to change what mark a squad have(assuming you didn't go overboard on the normal troops in dedicating them to a single god).

logosloki
16-01-2008, 07:55
I was going to mention that the icons help to give the chaos marines a very good archaic look, but I don't personally like icons. I use the current chaos codex and instead of an icon of tzeentch thousand son marines with breaks in their armour. in the background for my army they are relics that they found on the field, broken thousand sons whose power oozes out, acting as a psychic barrier.

superknijn
16-01-2008, 08:05
Thousand Sons don't and can't have banners. Aspiring Sorcerors can have personal icons, and those still are somewhat Space Marine-like.

Also, if you keep insisting ont he difference between squad and character options, what's your reaction on Chosen Aspiring Champions, who don't have any coices on their own? or Terminator AC's, for that matter?

logosloki
16-01-2008, 08:12
Thousand Sons don't and can't have banners. Aspiring Sorcerors can have personal icons, and those still are somewhat Space Marine-like.

Also, if you keep insisting ont he difference between squad and character options, what's your reaction on Chosen Aspiring Champions, who don't have any coices on their own? or Terminator AC's, for that matter?

When I talk about the icons I'm only talking about units that have the option of icons, not the cult troops or other troops that don't have the option. I do believe also that I did say that I may be wrong on the squad/character thing as You do state the chosen and terminator entries mention charcter but no options under that.

With that in mind I change my statement and retract from the top the arguement that the AC cannot take the icon, as the icon specifies one model which is a generic catch-all vs character/chaos space marine.

Galaspar
16-01-2008, 08:22
As far as I understand it, the main reason for replacing marks with icons is identifiability - it is now GW's policy (rightly, I feel), that every upgrade for a unit must be recognisably modelled on the unit. The alternative would be to say that a marked unit must be painted in the God's colours, or have his symbol painted on them, but this wouldn't go far enough - a beginner's painting may make it hard to tell what the scheme is supposed to be, and some people play with unpainted models. It's the same logic that lead to the removal of daemonic strength and the like, since they were often not clearly modelled.

There are many ways besides banners to indicate an icon, I use pet nurglings, enslaved daemons, and equally putrid additions.