PDA

View Full Version : The Rumored Rending Change ?



Pages : [1] 2

Fulgrim's-Chosen
16-01-2008, 11:13
Hey guys....just wondering what exactly the change (possible/likely) in 5th Edition 40-K is supposed to be, where Rending is concerned ?

CURRENTLY...if memory serves...if you roll a "6" on your "to hit" roll with a Rending unit/Rending attack - - - you AUTOMATICALLY Wound the target (no need to roll "To Wound" with that dice), AND you Ignore the target's Armor Save (if it has one), regardless of how high the value is (2+, etc.)


Against VEHICLES....IIRC, if you hit...then pick up the dice to see if you "Penetrate" the Armor...you roll like usual, adding your attacking models's Strength value to your die-roll ... so a Genestealer (STR-4) would add +4 to whatever he rolled with his D6 Penetration roll.

BUT....because it's Rending, if you roll a "6" on your Pen-roll...you get to "count that as a 6" ...then pick up the dice again and roll a "Bonus" time...potentially adding another 1-6 "Points of Penetration" to your tally.

This is it though...no re-rolling after that bonus roll.

So...as I understand it, currently.... the MOST a Genestealer (for example) could produce when rolling against a VEHICLE would be (Basic STR-score) 4 + (Roll your D6 for Penetration...and get a 6 !!!) +6 !

So 4+6 = 10, already. Now get your "bonus dice roll", since you rolled that 6 for you Penetration roll.

(assuming max possible result = 6, you would add that to the 10 you already have...so MAX, a Genestealer could produce would be a Pen-Value//Number of 16. Quite powerful. . .)

=----------------------------------------=

So my question now is....how is all of that RUMORED to be changing in 5th Edition ? What exactly is going to be different from the above method of how Rending works in 4th ? (many people are suggesting it will be "nerfed" in some way ?)

Thanks for any info you guys can provide !

catbarf
16-01-2008, 11:28
Supposedly it will be a 6 to wound that will Rend and against vehicles a six is an auto glance. So while things like Harlies (which are not broken because of Rending) will become fair, and things like Genestealers will be needlessly nerfed.

Mad Larkin UK
16-01-2008, 11:34
i think that Rending is much to powerful against vehicles at the moment. Having assault cannons rip apart my leman russes is no fun. An auto glance on the 6 to penetrate would be ok, especially if the new apocylpse style table is involved.

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 12:17
and things like Genestealers will be needlessly nerfed.
needlessly?, HA, they damn well needed it, and it might lower the number of Ass cannon spam marines

Having assault cannons rip apart my leman russes is no fun.
and not to mention extremely unlikely to happen in reality
MINIGUNS DO NOT RIP MBT's APART
GW have to stop watching bad Hollywood movies

Scythe
16-01-2008, 12:20
needlessly?, HA, they damn well needed it, and it might lower the number of Ass cannon spam marines


When was the last time you saw a genestealer army tear its way through its opponents unscratched? Genestealers are expensive, and tend to die pretty fast.

Adiem
16-01-2008, 12:21
needlessly?, HA, they damn well needed it, and it might lower the number of Ass cannon spam marines

Surely they're not that bad, considering their fragility and cost?

EDIT: Great minds think alike.. :)

junglesnake
16-01-2008, 12:23
i think that Rending is much to powerful against vehicles at the moment. Having assault cannons rip apart my leman russes is no fun. An auto glance on the 6 to penetrate would be ok, especially if the new apocylpse style table is involved.

I sort of agree. I can understand rending with weapons against tanks - maybe because of the weight of fire one of the rounds has managed to find its way through a vent, vision slit, into the engine via the exhaust.

What I don't understand is how a genestealers claw is rated to have the same effect?

Adiem
16-01-2008, 12:27
I sort of agree. I can understand rending with weapons against tanks - maybe because of the weight of fire one of the rounds has managed to find its way through a vent, vision slit, into the engine via the exhaust.

What I don't understand is how a genestealers claw is rated to have the same effect?

I always imagine when genestealers rend that it's equivalent to them ripping a hole in the armour and eating the crew. Might just be me though...

Kahadras
16-01-2008, 12:40
I would certainly agree that rending needs a debuff. The only problem I see is the DA codex. GW went to massive lengths to reduce ass cannon spam by increasing the cost of the assault cannon across the board. Now with 5th ed they've also debuffed it as well.

What will be really interesting to see is what GW does with the assault cannon in the next SM codex. If they keep the changes in line with the DA codex then the assault cannon will only ever be seen on Terminator squads.

Kahadras

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 12:45
When was the last time you saw a genestealer army tear its way through its opponents unscratched? Genestealers are expensive, and tend to die pretty fast.

Surely they're not that bad, considering their fragility and cost?
alright, I'll tell you *ahem ahem* (perhaps not complete unscathed, but in good enough condition to still be combat effective)
1: against my entire armoured company
2: against my entire Guard force
3: against my Dark Angels
and there the only 3 armies I've done, and with NONE of them, even with stupid tailoring, could I counter the almost 1st turn charges with at most 1 turn of shooting.
I do not, and have never gotten, how people always say there "fragile" and "expensive" there not when theres 72 of them, backed up by 3 shooting fexes, and infiltrating with Broodlord, the are NOT fragile

fizzywig
16-01-2008, 13:17
if they infilitrate they dont have fleet, a good genestealer (scuttlers EC) costs 23 points each so 72 of them would cost 1652 points for that price you could put out 270 guardsmen thats 135 hits 45 wounds and 22.5 kills. and thats just filling up your entire army list with lasguns.

dont get me wrong genestealers are a great unit but until they get into combat they are fairly fragile and they cost a lot of points.

Marneus Calgar
16-01-2008, 13:17
When was the last time you saw a genestealer army tear its way through its opponents unscratched? Genestealers are expensive, and tend to die pretty fast.

When I used to play Tyranids, back in third edition and their old codex, genestealers were not nearly as good as they are now. In the new codex they gained fleet of foot AND a 5+ armor save which could be upgraded to a 4+, for no extra point costs might I add.

Stella Cadente, I feel your pain. I used to play an opponent that played with about 52 genestealers, a carnifex or two, an infiltrating broodlord, a couple of raveners, and a tyrant with tyrant guards. It's basically close combat on turn two, and hopefully I get the first turn otherwises it's over.

Ironhand
16-01-2008, 13:23
If they keep the changes in line with the DA codex then the assault cannon will only ever be seen on Terminator squads.
Kahadras

And this would be a bad thing?

Scythe
16-01-2008, 13:36
When I used to play Tyranids, back in third edition and their old codex, genestealers were not nearly as good as they are now. In the new codex they gained fleet of foot AND a 5+ armor save which could be upgraded to a 4+, for no extra point costs might I add.

Stella Cadente, I feel your pain. I used to play an opponent that played with about 52 genestealers, a carnifex or two, an infiltrating broodlord, a couple of raveners, and a tyrant with tyrant guards. It's basically close combat on turn two, and hopefully I get the first turn otherwises it's over.

And they lost infilitrate I might add. An ability most people pay around 3 points for. I agree that stealers became better in 4th edition, but it was needed badly. Stealers blew in 3rd edition, badly. Now they are about at the power level they should be. They are powerfull in combat, no doubt. They also dissapear like snow under the sun before rapid fire and heavy bolters.

Kahadras
16-01-2008, 13:45
And this would be a bad thing?


Yes it would. If it moves the assault cannon from too good to too bad. What is needed is balance. I'm just hopeful that GW don't go overboard with the nerf bat.

Kahadras

Chaplain Dionitas
16-01-2008, 13:53
needlessly?, HA, they damn well needed it, and it might lower the number of Ass cannon spam marines

and not to mention extremely unlikely to happen in reality
MINIGUNS DO NOT RIP MBT's APART
GW have to stop watching bad Hollywood movies


You apparently have never seen an A-10 Thunderbolt tear open T-72's with its GAU-8/A Avenger gun which is just like an assault cannon

lord_blackfang
16-01-2008, 13:54
Flesh Hooks and Feeder Tendrils get a major boost according to rumours though, so Genestealers aren't as nerfed as you'd think.

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 14:00
You apparently have never seen an A-10 Thunderbolt tear open T-72's with its GAU-8/A Avenger gun which is just like an assault cannon
thats not a good comparison considering the T-72 is now obsolete, thats like saying
"it can rip through shermans"

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
16-01-2008, 14:02
Genestealers have option for preferred enemy which will be buffed - re-roll misses. so stop moaning.

wickedvoodoo
16-01-2008, 14:06
Flesh Hooks and Feeder Tendrils get a major boost according to rumours though, so Genestealers aren't as nerfed as you'd think.

Elaborate please.

I have already been knee deep in this arguement, and i cannot be bothered again, however this intrigues me, i have yet to hear of changes to these things. I presume you mean frag grennies are gonna change seeing as thats flesh hooks main use, but what is changing about feeders???

EDIT ***********



Genestealers have option for preferred enemy which will be buffed - re-roll misses. so stop moaning.

Ah you must have posted this seconds before i posted. Cheers for the info, that does help make up for the over the top nerf that stealers will get. Pity i only ever modelled feeders on one of my stealer broods.

UncleCrazy
16-01-2008, 14:14
good stealers at 23pts? are you joking? a good stealer is 16pts moving up behind 2 or 3 fexs and a tyrant. Which would make it in to h2h 3rd turn almost untouched. I play against stealer all the time and the best way to field them is cheap and lots of them.

Godgolden
16-01-2008, 14:20
a A-10 fires with its gattling cannon a 30mm anti-tank shell at supersnoic speeds.

I have a 30mm shell on my desk, inclusing brass its the length of my forearm.

A Terminator does not fire 30mm anti-tank shells, period.

It is not like a Assault cannon, the Gattlings on a Blackhawk is more inline with a assault cannon, and i dont think they can pen a modern battle tank, i of course have no diea of a normal blackhawks assault cannon penetration value... not at all, but its far less than a tank buster plane.

Theres bad examples... and then theres that.

Ok.. on track, rending is just stupidly good at the moment, it breeds faceless armys all the same, it requires no skill to deploy (en masse, 24") and it affects tanks worse than infantry, it is better than a dedicated heavy anti-tank weapon, whislt being better than a dedicated anti-infantry weapon.

In melee against infantry it isnt as deadly, they are subject to returning hits.

An auto-glance on a 6 is fine if the glancing chart doesnt have a destoryed result.. otherwise it would be a buff (You also cannot explode the tank, which could frag some)

But tearing off weapons and tracks is to me, very fluffy and interesting, they could of course destroy it by simply removing weapons and tracks etc.

But yes, rending, it was good for you while it lasted.

Warsmith Tharak
16-01-2008, 14:29
As far as I see it, stealers is geting better in 5 ed. With units blocking LOS you can put them behind a brood of hormogunts, and voila they will enter combat safer than before and at top speed...

cochise
16-01-2008, 14:38
Genestealers can get a re-roll to hit due to feeder tendrils
DC getīs a re-roll to hit due to chaplain
Harlies get a re-roll to wound via farseer

Now I donīt see the point in changing the rule at least in CC, as the main users have a way around it.
Mmm, Iīm wondering if they will force every single stealer to have the cthulhu head in order to use the tendrils in tournaments and the like...

Atomic Rooster
16-01-2008, 15:42
Ok.. on track, rending is just stupidly good at the moment, it breeds faceless armys all the same, it requires no skill to deploy (en masse, 24") and it affects tanks worse than infantry, it is better than a dedicated heavy anti-tank weapon, whislt being better than a dedicated anti-infantry weapon.


This is like saying a demolisher canon is too good because it's good against both vehicles and infantry. The assault canon is larger than infantry portable weapons, so there's nothing wrong with it being more effective than them. Picture a weapon as flexible as a missile launcher, but in a larger scale. Any balance issue can be resolved by an increased points cost so that building an all assault cannon army is as dumb as building an all missile launcher army (not that an all ML is all that bad).

I agree though that it's too effective against heavy armour, but I believe it's actually underpowered vs lighter armour. A solution? remove rending, give it Str 7.

oh, and this would really simplify the balancing of other rending weapons since the AC is a pretty extreme example.

Making 6s to hit vehicles auto glance would be nice solution too. If a sniper rifle can find a vision slit, then shooting 200 AC rounds will have a similar chance of finding that slit. I don't believe rending is terribly unbalanced, but I think the rules vs vehicles are rather silly & unrealistic.

505
16-01-2008, 16:29
I think ASsult cannons shouldnet get rending.

that would solve the big problem. leave rending to the Tyranid little guys.

give ASsult canons something different like assult 6 or soemthing ap3 and some special rule saying. you option to only kill target guy in the squad at ap1 (oponent chooses target in squad as normal). a little more in line I think A6 gives the mass shots were the ap1 option is the whole tearing through armor that its so famous for

Firaxin
16-01-2008, 16:32
Genestealers will be too nerfed. Lictors (which are already too nerfed) and ravenors will also be severly nerfed. I'd like to be able to destroy a vehicle in close combat without having to buy a Carnifex or a Hive Tyrant.

Loki73
16-01-2008, 16:44
I like my 7 ass cannons in my ravenwing army. Couter balance is, its all bikes and skimmers. So, im low on numbers. I guess its ok for me its still Heavy4 and most of the time I glance against arm 14 anyways. But seriously who shoots a land raider with an ass cannon unless there is no other choice. My cannons are use to put the fire on heavy infantry like MEQ. The key for the new "nerf" if it even will be one is redundancy. I have meltas and melta boms also in my list therefore I have redundancy.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
16-01-2008, 16:48
cthulhu heads are pure awersome! too bad they were worthless for so long!

so genestealers have three buffs [prefered enemies, gnadades and gaunt screen] and one nerf [rending] - overall their powerlevel should be ok IMO

Firaxin
16-01-2008, 17:08
cthulhu heads are pure awersome! too bad they were worthless for so long!

so genestealers have three buffs [prefered enemies, gnadades and gaunt screen] and one nerf [rending] - overall their powerlevel should be ok IMO

There would be literally no tyranids that can touch an AV12 vehicle in CC except for fexes and tyrants (I'm ruling out Broodlords 'cause they could only glance if they buy toxin sacs, and with the rumored vehicle buffs, glancing won't be able to kill a tank). Good job GW, you're reinforcing NidZilla.

Lictors and Ravenors don't have a gaunt shield if they're deepstriking. Barely anyone would even consider taking them anymore... again, this supports NidZilla.

(although Lictors might become better with the new cover rules, we'll have to see what they are).

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 17:20
Genestealers will be too nerfed.
good

Lictors (which are already too nerfed)
already nerfed??.......what?, so the times I've lost Land raiders and leman russes and full command units to them was just a dream I guess:eyebrows:

and ravenors will also be severly nerfed.
Yeah, poor ravenors, no more 2nd turn charges damn, there so nerfed ain't they:eyebrows:

I'd like to be able to destroy a vehicle in close combat without having to buy a Carnifex or a Hive Tyrant.
and how do Tyranids destroy tanks in fluff/stories??, oh yes thats right with a Carnifex or a Hive Tyrant, or something bigger, damn, how DARE GW make Tyranids more fluffy

Grazzy
16-01-2008, 17:28
I like the changes. Genestealers will not be that bad - IMO they are very,very good at the moment on a good board. Asscannons will now be more 'realistic' in that they will not be able to kill main battle tanks relatively easily and other CC units like harlies and DC are too good at the moment anyway. With the supposed gaunt hiding that could soon take place i do not think that stealers will be that bad.

Firaxin
16-01-2008, 17:40
already nerfed??.......what?, so the times I've lost Land raiders and leman russes and full command units to them was just a dream I guess:eyebrows:

Between this codex and the last they've been nerfed.



Yeah, poor ravenors, no more 2nd turn charges damn, there so nerfed ain't they:eyebrows:

...? I'm talking about rending, not anything to do with their speed. I also haven't heard any rumors that would prevent them from getting into combat quickly.
Raveners are the 'glass cannons' of the nid army. With nerfed rending, they'd be more like 'glass meatshields yet more expensive than terminators.'


and how do Tyranids destroy tanks in fluff/stories??, oh yes thats right with a Carnifex or a Hive Tyrant, or something bigger, damn, how DARE GW make Tyranids more fluffy

I dunno, I've read stories of genestealers or ravenors ripping open tank armor and devouring the crew inside. Why doesn't GW make space marine armies more fluffy by doubling their costs, as the guard:SM or ork:SM or nid:SM ratios are far too small, according to fluff.

NightBringer666
16-01-2008, 18:41
I play Necrons so i never really have to worry about rending all that much except in h2h if my res orb is not around.

As for an assault cannon shredding a tank it is possible due to the fact that the bullets are explosive tipped just like a regular bolter round. So yes an assault cannon can pack enough punch to take out a tank.

Rending needs a nerf but i think you could just make it any rolls to wound of a 6 model gets no save and against vechiles a roll of a 6 is an penetrationg hit with a -2 on the table (can't explode a vechile outright but sure as heck can stunn the crew)

Democratus
16-01-2008, 18:53
Rending needs a nerf but i think you could just make it any rolls to wound of a 6 model gets no save and against vechiles a roll of a 6 is an penetrationg hit with a -2 on the table (can't explode a vechile outright but sure as heck can stunn the crew)

This is exactly what the new rending rules are going to do. If you look at the damage table, a Penetrate roll with a -2 is quite similar to a standard Glancing roll. So making rending 6's auto-glance fits perfectly.

Firaxin
16-01-2008, 18:54
If the new rumors are to be believed, -2 on the table = a glancing hit.

I maintain that the problem ought to be fixed not by nerfing rending, but by changing the assault cannon rules and/or limiting assault cannons.

catbarf
16-01-2008, 19:47
alright, I'll tell you *ahem ahem* (perhaps not complete unscathed, but in good enough condition to still be combat effective)
1: against my entire armoured company
2: against my entire Guard force
3: against my Dark Angels
and there the only 3 armies I've done, and with NONE of them, even with stupid tailoring, could I counter the almost 1st turn charges with at most 1 turn of shooting.
I do not, and have never gotten, how people always say there "fragile" and "expensive" there not when theres 72 of them, backed up by 3 shooting fexes, and infiltrating with Broodlord, the are NOT fragile

Oh yes, Stealer armies are horrifically unbalanced, as evidenced by the number of Stealerbomb threads clogging up the Army Lists forum.

...

There's perhaps one for every ten Nidzillas. Perhaps if you lose all the time, you should change your tactics? DA are what Stealers are made to kill, but I have no idea why you can't just outrun them with your tanks or spam them with Guard. It's 24" between deployment zones, it's not hard to stay away.

Stealers are slow, cost more than Marines, and die extremely easily- even in melee, at which point they can do a ton of damage, but every hit hurts.

Not to mention, without current Rending, the only way to get more than glances will be MCs. Do you really want to make Nidzilla not only effective, but almost necessary?

EmperorEternalXIX
16-01-2008, 20:15
alright, I'll tell you *ahem ahem* (perhaps not complete unscathed, but in good enough condition to still be combat effective)
1: against my entire armoured company
2: against my entire Guard force
3: against my Dark Angels
and there the only 3 armies I've done, and with NONE of them, even with stupid tailoring, could I counter the almost 1st turn charges with at most 1 turn of shooting.
I do not, and have never gotten, how people always say there "fragile" and "expensive" there not when theres 72 of them, backed up by 3 shooting fexes, and infiltrating with Broodlord, the are NOT fragile You need to learn how to play, my friend.

I regularly cripple bug lists of all sorts with my marines, just gotta use the board to your advantage.

That being said they are expensive as hell and I think the nerf is needless.

Also I notice a lot of nid players cheat to high holy hell (often unintentionally) when using their genestealers (i.e. the fleet and the infiltrate combo).

Max Jet
16-01-2008, 20:25
alright, I'll tell you *ahem ahem* (perhaps not complete unscathed, but in good enough condition to still be combat effective)
1: against my entire armoured company
2: against my entire Guard force
3: against my Dark Angels
and there the only 3 armies I've done, and with NONE of them, even with stupid tailoring, could I counter the almost 1st turn charges with at most 1 turn of shooting.
I do not, and have never gotten, how people always say there "fragile" and "expensive" there not when theres 72 of them, backed up by 3 shooting fexes, and infiltrating with Broodlord, the are NOT fragile

Well I have to admit these are not the best armies to start with, but anyway, you still have a lot of possibilities.

1 Heavy bolters as side sponsons??? Ever considered it? One heavy bolter kills a genestealer per round, with 36" range and the possibility to drive your tank away this should help, other tanks can shoot their battle cannons from far away, causing a lot of casualties in the genestealer squads and never ever forget your tanks are faster than his stealers. And you are playing a tank company? You know you can equip your tanks with the possibility to shoot your side sponsons when being charged at In 10.
2 Doctrines, Heavy bolters in Squads... Hell, they are 10 points each. Do you know how much fire power you can pump out for merely 70 points? How many genestealers can he buy? 4? 3? And he is running towards YOU, not the other way.
3 O.k. these are not exactly the marines we know, but you still have the endless possibilities of a space marine army. It won't take you far just playing Deathwing all the time because of the coolness factor of the terminators. Try getting a little bit more mobile. You do realize tyranid armies are not the fastest out there? A genestealer moves 10 inches per round. Your Land speeders and bikes can move up until 24. So??? Do genestealers have rending shooting attacks ore something?

Why the hell is everyone babbling genestealers are to powerfull, just because they kill everything in close combat(including your super cool terminators, or wraith lords, or berzerkers) at ease. Just try to outshoot them and not just stand there, thinking (yieks I'm a marineeee. I R the best at shoooting AND close combat!) killing 10 Genestealers with shooting attacks HURTS! These are 160 - 230 Points. CHRIST. Where is the problem they have rending attacks. So? O.k.i got to admit it might be wierd imagining one, cutting through a tank, but still. As if Tyranids would have so many lascannon equivalents throughout their elite or even troop choices to deal with tanks, or such fast close combat monsters, that actualy catch up with a tank. (yay for 6 inch movements).

o.k. I got torn away but i hope you got the message.

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 20:31
Genestealers will be too nerfed. Lictors (which are already too nerfed) and ravenors will also be severly nerfed. I'd like to be able to destroy a vehicle in close combat without having to buy a Carnifex or a Hive Tyrant.

Genestealers and Ravenors will be nerfed, without any real reason. I have to disagree on the Lictor, though, he will get a serious buff. Hitting rear armour (most of the time AV10) with S6 is way better than the old rending rule. Also he gets a reroll of his attacks against normal infantry. I really like that!

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 20:33
so genestealers have three buffs [prefered enemies, gnadades and gaunt screen] and one nerf [rending] - overall their powerlevel should be ok IMO
Not really. You are comparing a 20 point Genestealer to a 26(?) point Genestealer, who still is less killy than it's predecessor.

I agree, that a Gaunt screen can have a big impact but old rending is way better than prefered enemy and grenades combined.

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 20:38
good

No.



already nerfed??.......what?, so the times I've lost Land raiders and leman russes and full command units to them was just a dream I guess:eyebrows:

Well, probably not. But then i am pretty sure, that i wasn't dreaming, that my Lictor only did damage in maybe a 1/4 of all my games. In all other games he couldn't penetrate even AV12 (4 attacks? come on, that's ridiculous) and then got boltered to death or stabbed by IG guardsmen, without killing ANYTHING. And even if he did damage a vehicle, most of the time he only ripped away a weapon or immobilized a Whirlwind (wow...) and then got killed. Lictors are not reliable enough. The rumoured changes actually make them an attractive alternative to Dakkafexes. (At least against vehicles. They are even less powerfull, even against Guardsmen, than before, prefered enemy or not).



Yeah, poor ravenors, no more 2nd turn charges damn, there so nerfed ain't they:eyebrows:

Well, if you can't handle an opposing model with a 5+ save... Ravenors are balanced. They are extremely fragile, but they hit very hard. Making them very fragile units, that don't hit that hard, is not the right decision.



and how do Tyranids destroy tanks in fluff/stories??, oh yes thats right with a Carnifex or a Hive Tyrant, or something bigger, damn, how DARE GW make Tyranids more fluffy
I don't care how "fluffy" it is, if it promotes Godzilla. Also the fluff mentions that MCs destroy tanks in close combat. Let's try how this one works out... (Hint: It doesn't. Even with the new marching rules it won't).

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 20:42
1 Heavy bolters as side sponsons??? Ever considered it? One heavy bolter kills a genestealer per round, with 36" range and the possibility to drive your tank away this should help, other tanks can shoot their battle cannons from far away, causing a lot of casualties in the genestealer squads and never ever forget your tanks are faster than his stealers. And you are playing a tank company? You know you can equip your tanks with the possibility to shoot your side sponsons when being charged at In 10.
every tank did have Heavy bolters, not every tank can see, yes you can drive away, a whole 12" wow, thats gonna help....no its not because now even less of my tanks can see and I can barely fire anything, yeah ordnance is really useful, when only half your army can see anything and the half that can usually miss and your enemy can avoid heavy damage by spacing out, and yes I could of taken sponson initiative 10 thingy, IF I had doctrines left

2 Doctrines, Heavy bolters in Squads... Hell, they are 10 points each. Do you know how much fire power you can pump out for merely 70 points? How many genestealers can he buy? 4? 3? And he is running towards YOU, not the other way.
same limitations apply to not being able to see with everything

3 O.k. these are not exactly the marines we know, but you still have the endless possibilities of a space marine army. It won't take you far just playing Deathwing all the time because of the coolness factor of the terminators. Try getting a little bit more mobile. You do realize tyranid armies are not the fastest out there? A genestealer moves 10 inches per round. Your Land speeders and bikes can move up until 24. So??? Do genestealers have rending shooting attacks ore something?

same again

why do people seem to imagine your fighting on flat grassland against an enemy who can't charge in 2 turns?, 1 if your unlucky
your fighting with TERRAIN (shock horror) against an enemy that can charge in 2 turns?, 1 if your unlucky

catbarf
16-01-2008, 20:47
every tank did have Heavy bolters, not every tank can see, yes you can drive away, a whole 12" wow, thats gonna help....no its not because now even less of my tanks can see and I can barely fire anything, yeah ordnance is really useful, when only half your army can see anything and the half that can usually miss and your enemy can avoid heavy damage by spacing out, and yes I could of taken sponson initiative 10 thingy, IF I had doctrines left

Five tanks with HB sponsons is 10 Stealers dead per turn. That's an entire squad of them vaporized. If you can barely see anything, use less terrain. Not to mention, 12" is faster than Stealers 5/6 of the time. That's an easy way to avoid being charged.


same limitations apply

Stop letting your opponent decide terrain.


same again

Stop letting your opponent decide terrain.


why do people seem to imagine your fighting on flat grassland against an enemy who can't charge in 2 turns?, 1 if your unlucky

Stop letting your opponent decide terrain. About the first-turn charge- there's 24" between deployment zones, and even Scuttlers won't get him too close. If the buggers are in difficult terrain, it will slow them down. So either he's in the open or gets shot, or is in cover and takes forever to reach you (and you can shoot him as he approaches). I've been on the receiving end of such a barrage, Stealers will not survive.


your fighting with TERRAIN (shock horror) against an enemy that can charge in 2 turns?, 1 if your unlucky

Stop letting your opponent decide terrain. 1 turn if he uses Scuttlers and gets an unlikely roll on the Fleet die. Two turns is still pushing it. Three or four seems more reasonable, especially if he's unlucky. And regardless, that's roughly half the game he isn't getting any damage done. A shooting army can be firing from the the start.

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 20:49
why do people seem to imagine your fighting on flat grassland against an enemy who can't charge in 2 turns?, 1 if your unlucky
your fighting with TERRAIN (shock horror) against an enemy that can charge in 2 turns?, 1 if your unlucky
Tyranids CAN NOT charge you in 2 turns, especially if there is terrain slowing them down and the enemy is smart enough to not deploy his own units in 24,00000001 inches distance of the enemy.

If Tyranids are able to charge the enemy in 1 turn, the other player is not unlucky, he is just incredibly stupid and really deserves to get some diamond hard claws shoved up his power armoured ass!

Max Jet
16-01-2008, 21:05
So what? It's not like he can afford enough genestealers to encircle your whole army. You will have a lot of possibilities to escape in at least one direction, assuming your not playing cityfight. Draw us a picture of your gaming ground with paint or something. I bet a hundred dollars the terrain isn't at least that bad. Even if the genestealers hide in cover, what do the get? 5+ save in the woods? How frightening for a 20 points creature.

You did not have enough doctrine points for the most important In 10 thing? What did you spend your doctrines for? (Perhaps ogrins because they are so tall and cool... like terminators.. oh why do terminators loose to genestealers in CC??? T_T)

Well I have never met a marine player having trouble with genestealers except those who make the "static army" mistake, and those with a close combat oriented army (because of their small budget they couldn't afford to buy forces with more fire power for battles like these).

ImpTyranid
16-01-2008, 21:24
thats not a good comparison considering the T-72 is now obsolete, thats like saying
"it can rip through shermans"

Obsolete and no longer in service are 2 different things. There are countries that still use a T-34, and a round from a T-34 is still fatal, even though a T-34 is well over 70 years old. Heck, the M1 was designed over 20 years ago. And, as I recall, the T72 is one of the most prolific tanks in the world, and still quite in use, as witnessed both in 2003 (lots of footage for the A-10) :cool:.

As far as going for obsolete, I would have to say by Eldar, Necron, and Tau standards, the Leman Russ is obsolete technology, but it's still in use and still deadly. Maybe if the Imperium would stop worshipping anything they don't understand and starting doing scientific research they could have some cool toys too, instead of the depressing WW1 / Char B designed tanks they have now. Ug.

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 21:25
Stop letting your opponent decide terrain.

independents do it


Stop letting your opponent decide terrain.

independents do it


Stop letting your opponent decide terrain.

independents do it


About the first-turn charge- there's 24" between deployment zones, and even Scuttlers won't get him too close.
well whenever I've played its 6" move, possible (and common) 6" fleet, and there 12" charge


Stop letting your opponent decide terrain.

independents do it

Draw us a picture of your gaming ground with paint or something.
thats impossible


You did not have enough doctrine points for the most important In 10 thing? What did you spend your doctrines for?
ace gunners
Vanquishers
Annihilator (leman russ version)
Side skirts
and summit else I can't remember because I didn't want to be like everyone


(Perhaps ogrins because they are so tall and cool... like terminators.. oh why do terminators loose to genestealers in CC??? T_T)
why would I pick a doctrine for the worst models ever?


Well I have never met a marine player having trouble with genestealers except those who make the "static army" mistake, and those with a close combat oriented army (because of their small budget they couldn't afford to buy forces with more fire power for battles like these).
I had a balanced army, good at shooting and assault, its how I've always played my lists

anyway I'm done here

DEADLOCK_1992
16-01-2008, 21:57
genestealers cant charge 12" only 6" so that is a maximum of 18" if it is able to charge you and the player is lucky enough to get a 6" fleet move which would give you at least 2 turns to shoot his army even if he gets high rolls for fleet

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 22:01
genestealers cant charge 12"
thats how my local Tyranid player plays it, and the manager confirmed it, and I can't ask for his book because he rarely has it since he says he shares it with his younger brother, and I can't check the one on the shelves for the obvious reasons.
so I just trusted the manager

Max Jet
16-01-2008, 22:02
well whenever I've played its 6" move, possible (and common) 6" fleet, and there 12" charge

See? That's why everyone wants to nerf Tyranids or think the are powerful or competitive.... they play with cheaters! But nooo!!!! Never ever check rules! Just run to GW and the forums and tell everyone Tyranids are the cheese... that's why the nerf happens.

So... 12" charge... a Genestealer????.... and 6" fleet? He roles ONE... see? 1 ONE 1 1 1 1 !!!!! dice for fleeting... that's a 3" or 4" fleet on average... not 6!!! a 1 for fleeting ist just as common as a 6 is. So he moves 9/10" a turn. Now where's the problem?

ace gunners
What for? costs hell of a lot points and most of the time you won't need it.

Vanquishers
I do not really think this is the right variant for battling tyranids...

I really would have wanted to see the gaming table... And for the next game. Swap your assault marines for more shooting power. Just try, your assault specialist will loose anyway so don't bother, just let him pay for every inch he comes closer, instead of moving to him.

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 22:05
ace gunners
What for? costs hell of a lot points and most of the time you won't need it.

its what MY regiment was famous for, good shooting


Vanquishers
I do not really think this is the right variant for battling tyranids...

I do NOT tailor lists for specific foes, I'm not THAT type of player:eyebrows:


I really would have wanted to see the gaming table... And for the next game. Swap your assault marines for more shooting power. Just try, your assault specialist will loose anyway so don't bother, just let him pay for every inch he comes closer, instead of moving to him.
be difficult to do, I don't use assault marines, I don't like how they look

Caboose123
16-01-2008, 22:05
*off topic*
This isnt really about genestealers, their pricey and fragile but combat monsters, lets leave it at that.

I would like to see rending stay similar to what it is except on a roll of a 6 to hit a vehicle they get 2D6 armour penetration. Although ive no idea about all these rumours that are being heard, and i doubt ill get what i want.


Im actually a space marine player with no assault cannons in my arm; so what?

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 22:10
its what MY regiment was famous for, good shooting

I do NOT tailor lists for specific foes, I'm not THAT type of player:eyebrows:


Well, you play a list, that sucks against Nids (with a player, that is cheating or doesn't know his rules), complain about it and demand the rules to be changed, so your list works against another list, instead of adapting your list? Right...

There are some balanced lists, that don't work that well against other balanced lists. You have to deal with it.

I also have a balanced Nid list, but when i know, i am up against Eldar, i need to change that list, because THIS balanced list stands no chance against Eldar.

You don't want to adapt your list? Then you are destined to fail. Your decision. But don't whine how cheesy and overpowered Nids are.

Or maybe you should change your list to ANOTHER balanced all-comers list, that also is able to deal with Nids... Just an idea...

DEADLOCK_1992
16-01-2008, 22:17
i would be happy with the rules being you can only glance against vehicles and against infantry they could change from rolls of 6 to hit to wounds which will lower the amount of rending attacks for everything and not make them to weak

Max Jet
16-01-2008, 22:18
Well, you play a list, that sucks against Nids, complain about it and demand the rules to be changed, so your list works against another list, instead of adapting your list?

There are some balanced lists, that don't work that well against other balanced lists. You have to deal with it.

I also have a balanced Nid list, but when i know, i am up against Eldar, i need to change that list, because THIS balanced list stands no chance against Eldar.

Amen! So you are a bad tacticain and get cheated. That's why you loose, not because Genestealers are walking chedars and goudas.

Anyway the current rending changes do not only consider genestealers. I think it really contradicts with the new dark angel codex, which does let the rumours look a little bit suspicious. As have been pointed out before it would not make any sense nerfing the assault cannon force with point costs AND rule changes. But on the other hand it explains the whole death company thing.... Well as a dark Angel player i would feel cheated.
A lot of people emphasized. It's not the rule, but the cheap availability of the rending weapons which make them too powerfull. I really do not think, that changing the core rules would be the right step.

Caboose123
16-01-2008, 22:34
@ Deadlock
I think that would make the rending too weak, i still think rending should be strong, just not necessarily anti-Land Raider strong, there is no problem with rending in combat really.

*attempts to subtley change this thread back to the topic... again*
;)

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 22:36
Amen! So you are a bad tacticain
I'm a bad tactician because I don't want the same army as EVERYBODY and there pet dog, damn oh well, I'll keep my individuality thanks

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 22:39
I'm a bad tactician because I don't want the same army as EVERYBODY and there pet dog, damn oh well, I'll keep my individuality thanks

You are a bad tactician, if you choose a bad army list (which i can't say, since i don't know your list) and then blame other armies beeing overpowered.

You want to play your inferiour list? Fine. But then don't complain, when losing.

Max Jet
16-01-2008, 22:43
Yeah right... I want an individual army too! One full of uber gaunts, just because no one ever uses 13 points gaunts, but I want them, they are so deadly with their higher initiative and their flesh hooks and strength 4!

Game against Tau...

Oh they slaughter my 13 points gaunts like butter... TAU ARE THE CHEEEEEESEEEE!

That was drastical, but please think of it. It reflects EXACTLY your arguments.


Well I never experienced genestealers cutting through land raiders, but most of the people on these forum tell of a hundred events where things like that happen... so toning it down to glancing hits only might be o.k. but please remember the possibly new damage table and consider how it will affect these changes!

jfrazell
16-01-2008, 22:43
thats how my local Tyranid player plays it, and the manager confirmed it, and I can't ask for his book because he rarely has it since he says he shares it with his younger brother, and I can't check the one on the shelves for the obvious reasons.
so I just trusted the manager

What you can't pull one off the shelf? I've played this game a lot of years and never heard of that one.

genestealers (and I play a light stealer shock army)
with scuttle
6 in scuttle (scout move)
6 in move.
lucky 6 on the fleet
6 in charge.

assuming they set up on the bleeding edge of 12 thats 36in first turn as the crow flies. But you're never realistically that far across the board.


The only thing that can charge 12in are cavalry and beasts (and old demonic speed). Ravenors can do it, but they don't get the option to scuttle.

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 22:44
You are a bad tactician
yes I heard the first time, I'm still trying to recover mentally

What you can't pull one off the shelf?
uggh....no, you can't, its a rule, you cannot pick up a codex and read unless you buy it, its been like that for the 13yrs I've played

Reinnon
16-01-2008, 22:47
plus there is no way for a genestealer to charge 12 inches - the longest he can move is 18 inches a turn with a good fleet move.

6+6+6 = 18

unless i'm misreading the nid codex - genestealers arn't beasts, the only way they can gain a first turn charge is with the use of a broodlord who deploys precisely 12 inches away out of line of sight.

Stealers are nasty but they are counterable by being quite vulnerable to small arms fire - if your list isn't working then either change it or change how you use it.

Tbh, the genestealer is a counterable user of rending and its not the main unit that should be the reason for the nerf. It is mainly in the form of assault cannons and harlies that rending becomes too powerful.

The problem is that as it stands, rending is the best weapon special rule as it is the most flexible. It effects everything equally well and doesn't have a conceivable drawback like for example: Melta Guns.

With the limitation of assault cannons and the to-wound portion of it rending will still be powerful - but not so powerful that it states to overshadow lascannons in terms of anti tank.

General rule: if the guy doesn't have a codex and his units become suspiciously powerful - don't play him or buy the codex yourself.

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 22:48
uggh....no, you can't, its a rule, you cannot pick up a codex and read unless you buy it, its been like that for the 13yrs I've played

Since you don't live in California, you can assume, that the shopowner will not sue you for billions of dollars, if you take the book, read an entry of a unit, that seems to have strange rules, then put it back...

Also, i know this is a strange concept, how about buying the codex...?

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 22:52
if you take the book, read an entry of a unit, that seems to have strange rules, then put it back...
and get banned, good idea, ITS THE GW RULE, sheesh
13yrs+ its been like that, you cannot look at a book you don't intend to buy

Also, i know this is a strange concept, how about buying the codex...?
why should I?, its not my army?:eyebrows:

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 22:58
and get banned, good idea, ITS THE GW RULE, sheesh
13yrs+ its been like that, you cannot look at a book you don't intend to buy

why should I?, its not my army?:eyebrows:

Then you won't complain wrongfully about an overpowered enemy army due to your lack of knowledge... I play Nid and i own almost all other codexes (especially those i play against all the time) anyway. If you don't know your opponent's rules it's now wonder how they can get away with stuff like that. Also if you know the rules you know beforehand how to play YOUR army in order to beat the other one...

Also you should change the place your gaming. If the employees won't let you look up something because you find some rules suspicious and they give you wrong information instead, than it's not the right place to be...

To sum it up:

- You are playing a list, that has trouble beating certain armies
- You don't want to change your list
- You don't want to learn the other armies' rules
- You have been cheated

And now you complain, that the other army is overpowered...

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 23:00
Also you should change the place your gaming. If the employees won't let you look up something because you find some rules suspicious and they give you wrong information instead, than it's not the right place to be...
yeah good idea, if it wasn't a GW rule, meaning all 3 of my GW's have the same damn rule, and every single one I have ever been to (8 by my count) had the same rule:eyebrows:
honestly the suggestions sometimes

Reinnon
16-01-2008, 23:01
and get banned, good idea, ITS THE GW RULE, sheesh
13yrs+ its been like that, you cannot look at a book you don't intend to buy


er...thats silly. I've looked through loads of army books before deciding to buy and i haven't been banned once.

normally, i read through and then decide to look on ebay for them. I've even had a conversation with a store manager while holding a book open that i had no intention of buying.

And, the fact that your being cheated suggests that you should find a way to get a copy - best way is to buy one yourself.

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 23:01
yeah good idea, if it wasn't a GW rule, meaning all 3 of my GW's have the same damn rule, and every single one I have ever been to (8 by my count) had the same rule:eyebrows:

And so every single employee there said, that Genestealers can charge 12"?

Also i never heard of that kind of rule before. It's even counterproductive for business, i am pretty sure you came up with this yourself.

Fellblade
16-01-2008, 23:01
There would be literally no tyranids that can touch an AV12 vehicle in CC except for fexes and tyrants
Why? First the other rumor was you always hit back armor in CC when the vehicle doesn't have a weapon skill. That alone means you'll rarely see an AV above 10. Likewise, according to the rumor the 6s autoglance unless it would otherwise have penetrated. Half a dozen glacing hits on a land raider is going to put it in a load of hurt. It probably won't be destroyed the first time, but it won't be doing a lot next round... besides, its a landraider. It shouldn't collapse like wet cardboard.

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 23:06
Why? First the other rumor was you always hit back armor in CC when the vehicle doesn't have a weapon skill. That alone means you'll rarely see an AV above 10. Likewise, according to the rumor the 6s autoglance unless it would otherwise have penetrated. Half a dozen glacing hits on a land raider is going to put it in a load of hurt. It probably won't be destroyed the first time, but it won't be doing a lot next round... besides, its a landraider. It shouldn't collapse like wet cardboard.

The problem is, that you need a LOT of glances to achieve any effect. Let's assume we have a tank with 4 weapons. Assuming it hasn't moved. Now you need an average of 108 Genestealer attacks in order to kill the vehicle... (6 for rending, 5+ for any lasting effect, 4 weapons to destroy, one immobilization, one destruction)

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 23:07
And so every single employee there said, that Genestealers can charge 12"?
I never asked the other employees, I only game at 1 of them, I buy at the others

Also i never heard of that kind of rule before. It's even counterproductive for business, i am pretty sure you came up with this yourself.
no I pulled it out of the land of fairies and pixes:eyebrows:
No I didn't NOT make it up, its a rule thats been around a long long time, and probably will always be around, if you've never heard of it then good for you
but its the rule round HERE

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 23:07
Okay. Then buy the codex. Problem solved.

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 23:09
Okay. Then buy the codex. Problem solved.
why?, you just told me they don't go 12" on a charge, why buy it now, nothing else inside it is ever used

Stingray_tm
16-01-2008, 23:12
Until next time you whine about some cheesy power unit you can't defeat because

A. you were cheated
B. you didn't know their weakness, that you could have known by reading their codex

Also don't complain if people think you are a bad player, because you decide not to know the rules of other armies. (Most people playing 40K have at least the codizes of their regular opponents).

Fellblade
16-01-2008, 23:13
and get banned, good idea, ITS THE GW RULE, sheesh
13yrs+ its been like that, you cannot look at a book you don't intend to buy

Wow, I've never heard of anything like that before. Its not like the books come shrink wrapped or something.

"I'm thinking about starting a genestealer army. Let me see something in the book. Oh, wait they can't do X? Nevermind, I'll stick with my Y army."

linvus232
16-01-2008, 23:15
I can't ever say I've been called on in any of my 3 local GWs for looking at a Codex for a contentious rule during (or sometimes even outside of) a game in store. Normally someone asks a staff member, he'll know the rule, or he won't (or someone doesn't believe him) in which case he'll pull a book off the shelf and look it up/show it to whoever asked. I don't think I believe ANYONE is capable of being as stingy as you say, let alone the staff of all 8 GWs you've been to.

As for the Rending thing, I have my reservations about the 'Nid list being pushed ever further towards 'Nidzilla, but the rear-end cannon really does need something to stop it from being more powerful, economical and flexible than the next best anti-vehicle weapon and the next best anti-infantry weapon...at the same time. Enough said.

jfrazell
16-01-2008, 23:19
yeah good idea, if it wasn't a GW rule, meaning all 3 of my GW's have the same damn rule, and every single one I have ever been to (8 by my count) had the same rule:eyebrows:
honestly the suggestions sometimes


Not getting you there my man. I play predominantly at GW stores. In addition to having store copies for use by players, there was never any issue.

I think you've been had (or maybe a sprite younger-old farts like myself aren't talked to like that).

Before you play said person, tell them to bring their actual codex next time.

Xenobane
16-01-2008, 23:24
I never asked the other employees, I only game at 1 of them, I buy at the others

no I pulled it out of the land of fairies and pixes:eyebrows:
No I didn't NOT make it up, its a rule thats been around a long long time, and probably will always be around, if you've never heard of it then good for you
but its the rule round HERE

A GW rule. :D

That's made my day that has. Maybe you just need to ask why GW staff are bullying you. If looking at a store codex can get you banned (not sure such a thing would even be legal) then why, as someone else pointed out, are they not wrapped up? In fact, why would they even be on display in the first place!

AngryAngel
16-01-2008, 23:30
I would certainly agree that rending needs a debuff. The only problem I see is the DA codex. GW went to massive lengths to reduce ass cannon spam by increasing the cost of the assault cannon across the board. Now with 5th ed they've also debuffed it as well.

What will be really interesting to see is what GW does with the assault cannon in the next SM codex. If they keep the changes in line with the DA codex then the assault cannon will only ever be seen on Terminator squads.

Kahadras


That is a very valid concern, and it'll end up making the ravenwing speeders, over costed and under performing unless they'll change the assault cannon main weapon rules as well.

Oh as well as dreads being then near completely useless with an assault cannon on it. Which is alreayd over costed, and underperforming in the DA army list, the nerfed rending will simply make the AC armed dread useless.



alright, I'll tell you *ahem ahem* (perhaps not complete unscathed, but in good enough condition to still be combat effective)
1: against my entire armoured company
2: against my entire Guard force
3: against my Dark Angels
and there the only 3 armies I've done, and with NONE of them, even with stupid tailoring, could I counter the almost 1st turn charges with at most 1 turn of shooting.
I do not, and have never gotten, how people always say there "fragile" and "expensive" there not when theres 72 of them, backed up by 3 shooting fexes, and infiltrating with Broodlord, the are NOT fragile

I have to agree they really aren't fragile if their player has half a brain. I am glad they'll get weaker a bit, perhaps it'll make people actually take the gaunts some.




And this would be a bad thing?

Yes it would be, for there are other weapon platforms that were increased in cost and rarity just because they could have an AC. So the nerf, then the increased cost to those units already will render them near useless options. Such as the AC tornado speeder, and the AC armed dread in the DA list.




good stealers at 23pts? are you joking? a good stealer is 16pts moving up behind 2 or 3 fexs and a tyrant. Which would make it in to h2h 3rd turn almost untouched. I play against stealer all the time and the best way to field them is cheap and lots of them.

Will be even more surviveable , and better vs infantry rolling up behind a vast swarm of gaunts. Yeap, they'll be getting way nerfed for sure.




I like my 7 ass cannons in my ravenwing army. Couter balance is, its all bikes and skimmers. So, im low on numbers. I guess its ok for me its still Heavy4 and most of the time I glance against arm 14 anyways. But seriously who shoots a land raider with an ass cannon unless there is no other choice. My cannons are use to put the fire on heavy infantry like MEQ. The key for the new "nerf" if it even will be one is redundancy. I have meltas and melta boms also in my list therefore I have redundancy.


That is true, redundancy is key. However with the nerf, if those AC's are very usefull now, you'll be paying more for less with each of those assault cannons.

Stella Cadente
16-01-2008, 23:30
Not getting you there my man. I play predominantly at GW stores. In addition to having store copies for use by players, there was never any issue.
no store copy round here, you cannot touch whats on the shelf book wise, they say it damages the spine so the next person gets damaged goods
(thats THERE excuse not mine)

That's made my day that has. Maybe you just need to ask why GW staff are bullying you.
there not bullying me, it applies to EVERYONE

WH40KAj
16-01-2008, 23:33
Stella Cadente, I've read all your posts about Tyranids and it I don't think rending is to blame. Firstly, Tyranids are supposed to move fast and playing a guard army on the whole suits tyranids. Secondly, with the lack of high strength MEQ killing weaponary rending is all they have. To take this away, or to take away its ability to hurt armour in any form impedes the balance of the army. IMHO, Tyranids were the only army who should have had rending, like it used to be.
As for everyone else mentioning ass-cannons, i think ranged rending is the antithesis of what warhammer 40,000 should be about. There are plenty of other weapons out there with specific roles- If you offer people a cake or brussels, what will they take? This is the same for rending ranged weapons or role-specfic weapons.
Since I've lost my train of thought, I'll leave it there for now
WH40KAj

junglesnake
16-01-2008, 23:34
er...thats silly. I've looked through loads of army books before deciding to buy and i haven't been banned once.

normally, i read through and then decide to look on ebay for them. I've even had a conversation with a store manager while holding a book open that i had no intention of buying.

And, the fact that your being cheated suggests that you should find a way to get a copy - best way is to buy one yourself.

First of all Mods - this has gone way off topic!

Right, it is standard GW policy that people should not be able to just pull the books of the shelf and flick through them. No I am not making this up - I know because once upon a time I was a redshirt - and no I am not making that up either. Once upon a time they had "customer open copies" which allowed people to pick them up and look but you can guess that these got warn very very quickly and didn't do a lot for the look of the shelves.

They then decided to put them behind the tills but this just created more hassle so they got rid altogether. The rule is that unless you intend to buy don't touch because otherwise you get all the gamers leafing through them, damaging them and essentially making them less desirable to buy.

Right on to the next step - RENDING. I would say get rid of the rending effects Vs vehicles apart from rare cases. I say this because there is no way that a stealer should be able to take out a land raider! A 6 to glance would be easier to damage a vehicle than it is now, all the talk has been of them dumbing down Rending not increasing it.

By that I mean up against A14 a stealer right now would need a five and a six or better. One 6 to glance means that you are on better terms already.

junglesnake
16-01-2008, 23:39
Stella Cadente: Lay off people, why should anyone have to go out and buy all of the army books? Sure you should have an idea about what you are up against but if you are like me and don't have the viable money to flash around. On top of that the amount spent on all those army books means you could have had a good part of an army for the same price.

I prefer to learn by playing. It gives a bit more reality to it - the first time I played Nids this edition they surprised me, they are meant to - they are Nids. Then after the game I talk to the other players and have a look at their dex.

To add to this I would agree that if they didn't bring their dex they shouldn't be played. At my GW that is also a rule, bring an army - bring the dex/army book. The redshirts then only refer to main rules queries.

As for the post about stealers getting all of those moves in one turn - that suggests that they are out in the open and not moving through terrain, otherwise that's another factor that will slow them down.

jfrazell
16-01-2008, 23:51
As for everyone else mentioning ass-cannons, i think ranged rending is the antithesis of what warhammer 40,000 should be about. There are plenty of other weapons out there with specific roles- If you offer people a cake or brussels, what will they take? This is the same for rending ranged weapons or role-specfic weapons.
Since I've lost my train of thought, I'll leave it there for now
WH40KAj

Agreed, although I'd be ok with demonettes when they had it as well.

catbarf
17-01-2008, 01:47
First of all Mods - this has gone way off topic!

Right, it is standard GW policy that people should not be able to just pull the books of the shelf and flick through them. No I am not making this up - I know because once upon a time I was a redshirt - and no I am not making that up either. Once upon a time they had "customer open copies" which allowed people to pick them up and look but you can guess that these got warn very very quickly and didn't do a lot for the look of the shelves.

They then decided to put them behind the tills but this just created more hassle so they got rid altogether. The rule is that unless you intend to buy don't touch because otherwise you get all the gamers leafing through them, damaging them and essentially making them less desirable to buy.

Right on to the next step - RENDING. I would say get rid of the rending effects Vs vehicles apart from rare cases. I say this because there is no way that a stealer should be able to take out a land raider! A 6 to glance would be easier to damage a vehicle than it is now, all the talk has been of them dumbing down Rending not increasing it.

By that I mean up against A14 a stealer right now would need a five and a six or better. One 6 to glance means that you are on better terms already.

1. Franklin Mills GW, at least, has store copies of everything.

2. You really can't envision a Stealer ripping off the top hatch, slaughtering the crew, then breaking something important and making the whole thing explode?

Firaxin
17-01-2008, 02:16
If glancing no longer gives the option to destroy something, only immobilize at best, i don't see how a roll of 6 = auto glance makes them better against land raiders...

I also don't see how being quick has anything to do with this argument over rending.

I've seen alot of threads on cheese Nidzilla since the nid codex came out. Not nearly as many as cheese genestealer threads. You're effectively telling me you would prefer a Nidzilla army to any other type of army? Reducing rending will not make people 'take more gaunts.' It will make them take more Nidzillas.

Exarch7
17-01-2008, 02:57
Genestealers are represented as being able to rip through anything with their diamond hard claws in fluff all the time so I really don't see how they can have anything less than the rending they have now. In other words they should be able to rip thorugh ANYTHING. Stop whining. Genestealers own in hand to hand combat (as they should), period. Don't fight them in hand to hand combat, that is your tactic. They can't shoot or get any kind of decent save nor do they move that fast really this is what balances them out. Play around them instead of crying.

Firaxin
17-01-2008, 14:27
According to fluff, they can tear through terminator armor with a single swipe...

catbarf
17-01-2008, 20:04
To be honest, the fluff is overblown. In the fluff, a squad of Marines can take on a whole army. That said, it is still reasonable to assume that 1/6 of the time, a Stealer can rip through.

Firaxin
17-01-2008, 20:09
To be honest, the fluff is overblown. In the fluff, a squad of Marines can take on a whole army. That said, it is still reasonable to assume that 1/6 of the time, a Stealer can rip through.

Yeah, but it depends on whose perspective it is. The POV army gets their own stuff buffed and the non POV army gets nerfed. This is terminators getting diced in a book written from SM perspective.

And its not just one example in one book either, its many books, be it actual terminators being torn apart or guardsmen about to face nids trading stories around the fire.

Caboose123
17-01-2008, 20:32
Its 40k thats not accurate, in Inquisito for example, SM could kill entire armies of IG, until he ran out of ammo, then he needs to loot!

Seriously back on topic,

Basic points about stealers,
-Awesome CC monsters
-Very fragile
-Expensive (considering point #2)
-Not beasts, they arent actually very fast
-Rending can take out almost all foes
Not over or under powered, fair, but you guys still aren't happy
Genestealers or not rending is too good against vehicles; no argument thus far; so they will be reduced to be more balanced, highly probable. The way they will change is not really open for debate. All that has been heard are rumours, i defy someone to say, "no they will definitly be..." thus this thread is basically pointless...

And you should refrain from saying X (player) is no good because of Y, its not that simple, unless you saw/played his games its impossible to say he has bad tactics.

catbarf
17-01-2008, 20:47
Genestealers or not rending is too good against vehicles;

Several, myself included, have disagreed with this. Quite simply, it isn't beyond the fluff, and it provides ample reward if somehow the Nid player can chase down a tank with his foot troops.

Democratus
17-01-2008, 20:51
Several, myself included, have disagreed with this. Quite simply, it isn't beyond the fluff, and it provides ample reward if somehow the Nid player can chase down a tank with his foot troops.

The Fluff is irrelevent in this case. By fluff, Ultramarines can call in orbital strikes. By fluff, a single squad of Dark Angels can defeat the army of an entire planet. Fluff is just so much babble. You may as well bring out the old Mighty Mouse vs. Superman debate.

What is important is a balanced game. Currently, rending against vehicles is not balanced. So the game needs to be changed to account for this.

After that...you can write your own fan fic about genestealers ripping open battleships or whatever you like.

lanrak
17-01-2008, 21:10
Hi Democratus.
I totaly agree that game ballance ,(and variety) should be the main focus of the devs.

Now the Nids needed a boost to make up for the lack of armour busting weapons.And giveing them the option of taking 'Rending Talons' was a reasonable way forward.IMO.

But the subsequent use of 'rending' as applied to ranged weapons was just plain wrong and unneccesary.IMO.
(If your only goal is to 'hype' the latest model range
game play issues tend to take a back seat.:(
And gamers get fed up with being fobbed off with rushed hap hazzard drivvel.)

I propose the black pen rule, take out a black pen and block out all mention of rending on all ranged weapons, and then write in the corrected PV.

Stingray_tm
18-01-2008, 15:08
Okay, Rending seems to get nerfed.

This is how it is supposedly to work: +1D3 for tank penetration on a 6.

Congratulations. Asscannons still can kill Land Raiders, while Tyranids (as a whole, not only rending units!) can't harm them or reliably damage vehicles with an AV of 12/13. At the same time Harlequins don't care, because Eldar kill vehicles with bright lances or starcannons.

So Nids got seriously nerfed, Asscannons and Harlies barely feel any impact at all.

Happy now?

colmarekblack
18-01-2008, 15:51
Maybe the problem isn't the rending rule itself but the assault cannon having rending. Easy way to solve this. Take rending away from AC but lower the ap to 3 (showing its power/ammo etc) and increasing/keeping the 4 shots (its a minigun for feth sake!). That way its less overpowering that its current incarnation. Also it can compare to a mansized minigun instead of a ROOM sized A-10 minicannon.

Rending on 'stealers is fine as it is, they'll get a buff/nerf depending on 5th ed rules. And as for Harlequins the rending isn't so over powered since they are at base strength 3.

Damocles8
18-01-2008, 15:55
I think rending is powerful on any unit, I like the assault cannon rules (I only have one right now, not planning on making an asscannon army....) but I also think that stealers are very powerful with rending, even if they change rending to killing blow rules from WHFB, I don't think it's a downgrade that much, I believe it will balance ALL of the rending units....

As for the comparable size of the Assault Cannon, it's about a .50 cal Minigun.....

Scythe
18-01-2008, 16:20
What is important is a balanced game. Currently, rending against vehicles is not balanced. So the game needs to be changed to account for this.


Indeed. Most of the vehicles out there are skimmers, which are only hit on a 6 in close combat. Next to that, most other vehicles actually reached in close combat by rending close combat troops have moved 12", also requiring 6s to hit. After that, another 6 is needed to get the extra penetration dice. A 1/36 chance of a genestealer actually gaining enough strenght to possibly glance or penetrate a vehicle is obviously way to low. Not balanced at all, obviously.

Therefore, I would suggest we make rending better against vehicles.


Seriously, the words you were looking for were: "ranged rending weapons are not balanced against vehicles".

deadly_juice
18-01-2008, 16:24
so heres a question...why cant rending against vehicles work like the gauss weaponry of the necrons?

Firaxin
18-01-2008, 16:25
Thankyou Ianrak, Stingray, Colmarekblack, and Scythe.

Even with rending, a genestealer would need to roll a 6 followed by a 5+ to penetrate the front of a leman or a landraider. Not to mention they have to catch the vehicle first (ugh, skimmers...). Its not overpowered at all.
Its probably not true, but the impression the rest of you give me is that you're SM players who are sore that everyone hates your assault cannons, and out of spite you want to take down other armies with you.

Once again, I'll tell you what will remain in the nids anti-tank arsenal, since none of you seem to care how they'll be if rending ends up like this.

Bio-Acid Spore Mine: It has a 1/3 chance of hitting the tank, and then even if it does it needs to roll two 6+s to penetrate the landraider.

Warp Blast: It only has a range of 18". Last time I checked most vehicles tend to have guns with longer range than that. It needs a 4+ to hit, and a 5+ to penetrate, but its rendered less powerful because its user has to get close.

Venom Cannon on Hive Tyrant: Needs a 3+ to hit (if you pay for increased BS), and then a 6 to glance (If you pay for increased strength, which also increases the cost of the gun). It cannot achieve a penetration, even if its only an AV11 rhino.

Venom Cannon on a Fex: Same as Hive Tyrant, only it needs a 5+ or 4+ (depending on if you pay for increased BS) to hit, and a 4+ to glance. Note that both venomcannons only have a range of 36", shorter than any lascannons or battle cannon rounds that will be heading their way.

Barbed Strangler on Fex: Only 1 shot a turn, it needs a 5 or 4 to hit, and a 6 to glance.

Hive Tyrant/Fex in CC: Well first they have to reach the tank, impossible against a smart opponent unless your tyrant has wings.

Looking at, say, a space marine army, aside from the assault cannon you still have:

Lascannons, Krak Missiles, Multi-Meltas, Meltas, Meltabombs, Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, Dreadnought CC, Demolisher Cannons, etc.

Practically all of your units have access to all of the above (the exception being demolisher cannons and CC dreadnoughts, as those are obviously limited to the single vehicle).

While pretty much Fex's and Tyrants (which can take warp blast) are pretty much the only units that have access to reliable anti-tank weapons. Great, Nidzilla reinforced.

I seriously doubt even GW would address the complaints of people crying cheese over asscannons but at the same time ignore the complaints of people over Nidzilla, instead actually making Nidzilla better.

Lordsaradain
18-01-2008, 16:34
I have yet to win a single victory against tyranids with my chaos force. They outshoot me and they even manage to pwn my 'zerkers in close combat due to their high initiative. There is simply no way for me to beat them, nerfing rend would be the least GW could do to make them beatable.

Stingray_tm
18-01-2008, 16:36
I have yet to win a single victory against tyranids with my chaos force. They outshoot me and they even manage to pwn my 'zerkers in close combat due to their high initiative. There is simply no way for me to beat them, nerfing rend would be the least GW could do to make them beatable.

And i haven't beaten Dark Eldar before with my Nids. So maybe they should make them T2, S2, I1. Otherwise i might improve my tactics or army list, god forbid...

Firaxin
18-01-2008, 16:47
I have yet to win a single victory against tyranids with my chaos force. They outshoot me and they even manage to pwn my 'zerkers in close combat due to their high initiative. There is simply no way for me to beat them, nerfing rend would be the least GW could do to make them beatable.

Uh, then you should try standing in cover, it gives you initiative 10.

I'm not sure how they outshoot you if none of their guns are AP3, whereas your basic bolter ignores the majority of nid saves.

PierceC
18-01-2008, 17:02
cthulhu heads are pure awersome! too bad they were worthless for so long!

so genestealers have three buffs [prefered enemies, gnadades and gaunt screen] and one nerf [rending] - overall their powerlevel should be ok IMO

I'm really not sure how you can compare those buffs to that nerf.

Two of the three "buffs" require points on top of an already expensive base point cost. So if you include extended carapace, which is still going to be necessary, even with the 3rd buff, your looking a a huge point sink in a few units. You lose your genestealers you severely hamstrung!:rolleyes:

The third "buff" is negated by all the whole army is still foot slogging. There isn't anything that stops you from getting good firing lanes and blasting away at Hormogaunts like no one's business. 'Stealers will still need to hug cover because there is no additional speed. A unit attached to a broodlord is the most survivable still even with this "buff" in place

I can see why Rending was nerfed, but please don't act as if it has balanced ALL units that had it was an ability. That's the biggest drawback to 'Stealer to get them to parity you need to make them much more expenisve. If you had a 'Stealer heavy list before you probably didn't have much shooting. They have an average save, and to make them "super-killie" they got tremendously expensive (ex. Ext. Carapace, Flesh hooks).

Damocles8
18-01-2008, 17:54
Uh, then you should try standing in cover, it gives you initiative 10.

I'm not sure how they outshoot you if none of their guns are AP3, whereas your basic bolter ignores the majority of nid saves.

Saves don't mean crap if you have to roll 40 of em.....

Firaxin
18-01-2008, 17:58
Saves don't mean crap if you have to roll 40 of em.....

Bolters are also longer ranged and have a higher rate of fire.

Damocles8
18-01-2008, 18:09
higher ROF? over 12" it's only 1 shot.....

Lancaster
18-01-2008, 18:20
When was the last time you saw a genestealer army tear its way through its opponents unscratched? Genestealers are expensive, and tend to die pretty fast.

Hopefully then, GW will compensate by lowering their cost, or giving them super-rending or something. Remember, rending WAS a tyranid thing back in 3rd...

AngryAngel
18-01-2008, 18:22
And i haven't beaten Dark Eldar before with my Nids. So maybe they should make them T2, S2, I1. Otherwise i might improve my tactics or army list, god forbid...

Their troops are dirt cheap, as are their heavy weapons. While being good vs heavy infantry and vehicles. Yes they need some amount of change, I haven't played them much and when I did I was luck enough to out gun them on the way in. They are a bit over the top.




Uh, then you should try standing in cover, it gives you initiative 10.

I'm not sure how they outshoot you if none of their guns are AP3, whereas your basic bolter ignores the majority of nid saves.

Standing in cover is a good idea, for the first round of combat. However I have yet to see nid players not have flesh hooks stealer broods. So all your getting is one round at most, at the same init yay.

As for the bolter chewing through majority saves, that would be true if you couldn't raise the armor of the units you'd really like to see dead to bolter rounds. The only things you easily chew, are gaunts, which hardly any nid player heavily uses, and ravenors which if they had a 4+ save would be too good with how fierce they can be in CC and how fast they get into CC.


Only reliable way to really kill stealers before they get into CC. Is heavy bolters, and assault cannons, bolters won't do the job.



Bolters are also longer ranged and have a higher rate of fire.

Bolters won't put out the same amount of hits and wounds on a stealer brood the brood will on a marine squad once they get into close combat. I don't know how many wounds you normally roll with bolters, even rapid firing but for me even a 10 man squad is not all that devastating.

Firaxin
18-01-2008, 19:09
higher ROF? over 12" it's only 1 shot.....

But under 12", the range of the nids fleshborer, its two shots. And I don't see heavy bolters or flamers mixed in with the fleshborers.

Don't forget hidden powerfists.

WH40KAj
18-01-2008, 19:47
I'm sorry all you marine players out there. But believe it or not an infantry heavy army hammers genestealers. Large amounts of marines, orks etc can all decimate stealers rending or not. You can even take assault cannons and heavy bolters on landspeeders. And you want to nerf stealers? Sure, lets take away your anti-MC weapons to make it fairer, so when you're beaten by around 6-7 carnifexes everytime you play a tyranid army you'll moan that tyranid players can't play fair and all have the same lists. To be honest it seems we really can't win unless they allow our venom cannons to penetrate- but maybe, just maybe in the end that's unfair too....
WH40KAj

catbarf
18-01-2008, 19:59
Bolters won't put out the same amount of hits and wounds on a stealer brood the brood will on a marine squad once they get into close combat. I don't know how many wounds you normally roll with bolters, even rapid firing but for me even a 10 man squad is not all that devastating.

10 Marines fire on a squad of 10 Stealers from 18" away. They get 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 3.33 kills. The Stealers get a 5 for fleet, they're 7" away. The Marines fire again, 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 6.66 kills. All gone.

Supposing that the second volley is only half that effective, and 3 Stealers are left. Stealers strike, 9 attacks, 1.5 rends + 3 normal hits. 3 hits become 1.5 wounds, of which .5 saves are failed. So, 1.5 rends + .5 wounds = 2 dead Marines.

8 strike back. 8 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1.33 failed saves. Pretty much half the Stealers are dead already.

This was done without heavy weapons, flamers, or anything like that. Not to mention the Marines are 10 points down from the start, enough to buy a Flamer.

Yes, they're powerful, but a competent player can easily keep them away.

And, even more, the example used assumed that the Nid player got a 5 for fleet. It's entirely possible for him to be less lucky, and for the Marine player to get another turn of shooting. So this isn't some extreme example in which SM win.

Democratus
18-01-2008, 20:15
Isn't the prevailing rumor that assaults on vehicles are resolved against the rear armor value regardless of facing? That would mean that in all but a very few cases Genestealers would auto-penetrate on a pen roll of 6 (6 + 1d3 > 10).

Stingray_tm
18-01-2008, 20:16
That would be the right balance, but sadly it isn't in the leaked document.

adreal
18-01-2008, 22:06
not reading the last two pages, but stealers can get a first turn charge

scuttle, move, fleet, assault (6+6+6+6)

Ok I only got that once, and that was against something else that was set up on the 24"line because it was an assaulter and I got a good fleet roll, but even with my first turn combat I lost both my stealer units to it (my other unit charged in turn two) but I did kill the two squads (penitent egine is what I charged and arch flagelencents are what counter charged).

Anyway I don't see why a tank company would have such a hard time against nids (yeah I know he cheated but surely you've played since and rectified this) I mean pie plate of doom should do something right?

catbarf
18-01-2008, 22:18
not reading the last two pages, but stealers can get a first turn charge

scuttle, move, fleet, assault (6+6+6+6)

This is only physically possible if the enemy models are at the edge of their deployment zone, yours are at the edge of yours, and there is a straight line between them without the slightest angle- even a 91/89* angle will put the distance slightly over 24". Not to mention you need a 6 for fleet.

In other words, impossible, and since I have strong doubts that there was a perfect right angle formed between your troops and the opponent's I'm inclined to say you messed up.

AngryAngel
18-01-2008, 22:24
10 Marines fire on a squad of 10 Stealers from 18" away. They get 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 3.33 kills. The Stealers get a 5 for fleet, they're 7" away. The Marines fire again, 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 6.66 kills. All gone.

Supposing that the second volley is only half that effective, and 3 Stealers are left. Stealers strike, 9 attacks, 1.5 rends + 3 normal hits. 3 hits become 1.5 wounds, of which .5 saves are failed. So, 1.5 rends + .5 wounds = 2 dead Marines.

8 strike back. 8 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1.33 failed saves. Pretty much half the Stealers are dead already.

This was done without heavy weapons, flamers, or anything like that. Not to mention the Marines are 10 points down from the start, enough to buy a Flamer.

Yes, they're powerful, but a competent player can easily keep them away.

And, even more, the example used assumed that the Nid player got a 5 for fleet. It's entirely possible for him to be less lucky, and for the Marine player to get another turn of shooting. So this isn't some extreme example in which SM win.


Thats well and good, however screening the unit with meatsheids will lead to you getting none of those shots on them, or very few before your charged by damn near the whole army. Because of the fact everything has fleet. So yeah it will be near impossible to avoid them.

As well I've never seen anyone use them without EC as standard so it isn't 6 hits and 3 kills. Its around 6 hits, 3 saves that need to be made and about 1 or 2 saves made. So thats about 1 kill from over 12 inches on one squad. Not to mention the change to the rapid fire shots. Not to mention there will be more then one squad of stealers out there. All he needs to get into your line with one near full squad to really start eating his way through your line.

By then its blocking firelanes, and MC's will be not too far behind, if a flyrant isn't there already. Assuming they have a save of 5 for armor is foolish. I've never seen them sent out like that. When I have, your right, they've been not a problem at all to take down.

junglesnake
18-01-2008, 22:38
Even with rending, a genestealer would need to roll a 6 followed by a 5+ to penetrate the front of a leman or a landraider. Not to mention they have to catch the vehicle first (ugh, skimmers...). Its not overpowered at all.
Its probably not true, but the impression the rest of you give me is that you're SM players who are sore that everyone hates your assault cannons, and out of spite you want to take down other armies with you.

Well here is the thing, if you have a rule called "rending" it should be treated the same each time it is applied to a unit.

Seccondly this just makes you sound like someone who hates marines because they may have one or two in their army. I would wait to see what the new Marine dex is like. If you look at the Dark Angel codex, there are fewer chances to field an assault cannon and I would think that this is the way the new marine codex will go.

As for skimmers - its not just Nids that have a hard time with them, and by this I would imagine you are talking about Eldar.

So again you say you want Genestealers to have rending and for rending to get changed so that your Nids are better and that the assault cannons are worse. And you accuse Marine players of being protective - I can see why!

High velocity projectiles fired in large volumes in seconds verses claws - which in reality would you expect to do more damage? At range I would expect the projectiles - up close all of those claws start to mount up . . . . . .

Maybe just create a new rule altogether for Nids that works in the same way that the old Necron scarab rule used to work but in close combat. So the more Nids you have in base to base contact with a vehicle the higher their strength and therefore ability to damage it is?

My creative mind sees one stealer helplessly clawing away at armour plates - but when in masse ripping at anything loose, that they can get a grip of like monkeys in a Safari park but with slightly more evil intentions other than to taste your windscreen wiper!!!!

Deathwing_Matt
19-01-2008, 00:57
Saves don't mean crap if you have to roll 40 of em.....

Yup, its not about the AP with nid shooting, its about the twin linked weapons and living ammo (re-roll wounds)...

Firaxin
19-01-2008, 02:04
So again you say you want Genestealers to have rending and for rending to get changed so that your Nids are better and that the assault cannons are worse. And you accuse Marine players of being protective - I can see why!


Uh, no, I did not say that.
Rending should stay the same, nids should keep rending, and assault cannons should be restricted (which has happened in certain marine codexes, but the majority of marines don't play those armies) or get improved stats but lose rending.

adreal
19-01-2008, 02:05
This is only physically possible if the enemy models are at the edge of their deployment zone, yours are at the edge of yours, and there is a straight line between them without the slightest angle- even a 91/89* angle will put the distance slightly over 24". Not to mention you need a 6 for fleet.

In other words, impossible, and since I have strong doubts that there was a perfect right angle formed between your troops and the opponent's I'm inclined to say you messed up.

I set up on the edge of my line, he set his penittent engine up on his line. The I get my 6" scout move, which was strait forward, cause who want's stealers just standing there. I then roll for the first turn, get it and move another 6 inches (wow already at 12) then I get a 6 inch fleet (im on 18) then I get a 6 inch assault, which gets some stealers into it (24" move on the first turn)

"Oh you must not have had neough terrain". No we had the required 25%, but it wasn't placed along this line where my stealers moved up. "Oh you must not have moved them right" No I moved them right, its a strait line, not to hard to figure out and as stealers are old school hormie's they don't tip forward so the base possitions arn't in dispute.

Will it happen every game? No, in fact this was the only game it ever happened for me, but it is possible

Biomass Denial
19-01-2008, 02:31
Any way its still impossible to get a first turn charge because you have to be OVER 24 inches away from each other. While this normally resolves down to 24.0000001 inches away it is still impossible to get a first turn charge no matter how good you fleet, how little terrain there is and how close you set up. It just isnt legally possible unless your playing the mission where you can be 18 away. But who plays missions theses days anyway?

AngryAngel
19-01-2008, 02:42
Ok so you can't get a first turn, your very close for a 2nd turn charge however, with most of your army if your running heavy stealers. I don't know about the marine playing world but for DA I just can't put out enough firepower to stop that completely unless I really cheese out my opponent and try to personally neuter their list.

Lord_Squinty
19-01-2008, 02:42
My 2Cents - Rending should stay as is...
BUT - there should be NO long range rending.
Genestealers may have rending -
Look at it this way - theyre not ripping the tank to bits - theyre ripping open hatches and killing crew.
Assault cannons and rending is broken - whats wrong with 4 shots at S6? no rending.

Stella Cadente
19-01-2008, 03:15
Any way its still impossible to get a first turn charge because you have to be OVER 24 inches away from each other. While this normally resolves down to 24.0000001
oh yes, because everyone measures that .0000001 of an inch:rolleyes:

I don't know about the marine playing world but for DA I just can't put out enough firepower to stop that completely unless I really cheese out my opponent and try to personally neuter their list.
thats pretty much the same problem for me, you CANNOT put out enough fire to kill 72 stealers.......but of course around here that just means I'm a bad commander for not having assault 100 boltguns

The Hobo Hunter
19-01-2008, 03:36
My 2Cents - Rending should stay as is...
BUT - there should be NO long range rending.
Genestealers may have rending -
Look at it this way - theyre not ripping the tank to bits - theyre ripping open hatches and killing crew.
Assault cannons and rending is broken - whats wrong with 4 shots at S6? no rending.

If 'stealers can rip apart termies as easy as they do in Space Hulk, I see no reason why they can't shred a tank. Rending is perfectly representative (probably under-representative, but then we'd have 10-man marine armies in the game too).

Assault cannons fire explosive rounds at high velocities through what is effectively a minigun - I'm pretty sure they should have a shot at taking down vehicles.

Remember, just because something rends, it doesn't mean it automatically annihalates the vehicle - you still need to hit the vehicle, roll a 6 on at least one of the dice, and then roll another 3+ just to pierce AV 14. There's plenty of opportunity to survive an asscannon, unless you're infantry. But then again, what infantry really WOULD survive being hit with an assault cannon?

I don't think that the problem is that rending exists as it does, it's that it's given to every unit under the sun. As much as I hate the 'newer' codices like DA, Orks, chaos etc, I think GW is on the right track in limiting asscannons in the astartes lists.

Hell, I'd probably limit the asscannon to just dreadnaughts and terminators (they're tactical dreadnaughts). I can understand harlequins, I mean the kiss pretty much is the epitome of rending, but how - just how - do death company warrant rending?

Biomass Denial
19-01-2008, 03:36
I know that no one measures to .00000001 of an inch but the point still stands you dont get a first turn charge cause your max movement is 24 inches and you have to be over that when you deploy so even if the measuring doesnt stand up to it you still cant declare a first turn charge unless your admitting you arnt playing to the rules in the first place which makes the arguement pointless. Also why is it that you feel compelled to stand at that just over 24 inches mark if you stand even six inches back. You may get less shooting but as has being pointed out boltguns do nothing so only the heavy weapons count and they have the range anyway while on the other hand average to bad fleet rolls mean they can only get to you on turn three at the earliest.

Stella Cadente
19-01-2008, 03:38
Also why is it that you feel compelled to stand at that just over 24 inches mark if you stand even six inches back.
well its hard for my guard when I have 156 Infantry and 3 Tanks to set up in 12", or even less if its cleanse

adreal
19-01-2008, 03:41
Any way its still impossible to get a first turn charge because you have to be OVER 24 inches away from each other. While this normally resolves down to 24.0000001 inches away it is still impossible to get a first turn charge no matter how good you fleet, how little terrain there is and how close you set up. It just isnt legally possible unless your playing the mission where you can be 18 away. But who plays missions theses days anyway?

clense: No unit can be deployed with 18". So I can get a first turn charge there

secure and control: no unit may be deployed more then 12" from thier own long table edge. not the same as 24" apart but it works out that way most games, but still not the whole more then 24" thing you describe

seek and destroy: no unit may be deployed within 24" of the enemy or more then 15" from there own long table edge. Maybe this is what your thinking of?

recon: no unit may be deployed within 24" of the enemy or more then 15" from thier own table edge. Ok this one to, although both say I can't be within so there has to be 24" between two units not 24.00001" Pedantic I know but....

take and hold:no unit may be deployed more then 12" from thier own long table edge. Again no where does this say I have to 24" away, just I can't exceed 12"

So 3 out of the 5 standard missions from GW don't say I have to be 24" away from you, If you play the standard pitched battle, perhaps you should play fantasy as that is the only (recient) GW rulebook with that scenario

So in short, yes I can get first turn charges on you.

AngryAngel
19-01-2008, 03:49
oh yes, because everyone measures that .0000001 of an inch:rolleyes:

thats pretty much the same problem for me, you CANNOT put out enough fire to kill 72 stealers.......but of course around here that just means I'm a bad commander for not having assault 100 boltguns

I do see what your saying man. I've been on the end of those at least 2nd turn charges myself. If you don't get first turn, your chances of stopping them are not that great, and once they begin to hit your infantry line, there it goes. Unless you rolled extremely well for shooting, wounding and they didn't save near anything.

Hive Mind 33
19-01-2008, 04:36
If it happens Nids loose on of the few way to crack a tank. Venom cannons are expensive. 30 pts can get me 5 more termagants, or 2 more hormagaunts with toxin sacs. Which are more important to my swarm army.

Should rending get nerfed no. Should it get limited yes

catbarf
19-01-2008, 04:43
All he needs to get into your line with one near full squad to really start eating his way through your line.

Good. It's fair then. Any decent player can kill them easily before he gets hit.

Perhaps they're being screened? By what? A brood of 8 Termagants? Thank you, another 5 Heavy Bolters in my army. You can kill them, it just requires more than than rolling dice.

Have you ever played as them? I don't think so, since apparently you want them expensive, slow, easy to kill AND weak in melee.


oh yes, because everyone measures that .0000001 of an inch:rolleyes:

Way to completely miss the point.


thats pretty much the same problem for me, you CANNOT put out enough fire to kill 72 stealers.......but of course around here that just means I'm a bad commander for not having assault 100 boltguns

Just over a thousand points? The number of Russes I could get for that has me salivating. Kill half the army in a single volley, reload, fire again.

AllisterCaine
19-01-2008, 05:26
You apparently have never seen an A-10 Thunderbolt tear open T-72's with its GAU-8/A Avenger gun which is just like an assault cannon

Alright, someone has to end this ****. STOP COMPARING THE ASSAULT CANNON WITH THE A-10 GUN. OK. The GAU-8 fire shells which can pierce tank armor by themselves, as in ONE ROUND. While the assault cannon, uses RENDING to get by the armor, as in HUNDREDS OF ROUNDS. UNDERSTAND? ONE S6 shot cannot get by AV 14, so firing more at it, SHOULD NOT PENETRATE THE ARMOR. Whereas ONE shot from the A-10 can blow through a tank, but it cant FIRE one shot because holding the trigger for 1 second fire like a few dozen rounds.

This is like me throwing a rock at a tank. It cant penetrate the armor, if i threw a billion rocks at 100 rocks a second at that tank, IT STILL WONT PENETRATE THE ARMOR.

Firaxin
19-01-2008, 05:46
Look, this really has nothing to do with how good or not or how cheese or not stealers are.

The real question is, are you willing to completely condone Nidzilla and swear on your mother's grave that you will never ever gripe about it again?

Because that's pretty much the only viable anti-tank option nids will have.

AngryAngel
19-01-2008, 05:56
A unit of 8 termagaunts ? For how cheap termagaunts are you could screen your stealers behind a group of 20 strong termagaunts, at 120 for 6 pts a pop. Yeah, the termagaunts aren't scary, the full unit of stealers however will be that'll be coming right behind them. Why would you only screen them with a unit of 8 ? Even a 32 strong unit of termagaunts is worth screening a couple units of stealers. As those 2 units will role up most anyones whole line once they reach it unscathed.

Any decent player can, and especially with the 5th ed changes, taken with the rending nerf, will be able to get their stealers right where they need to be easily.

They don't need good rending, as with the forced marching canries they'll be getting to the vehicles much quicker then, then they do now. If you ever had a MC attack a vehicle you know just how quick they'll destroy it. Especially a forced marching carnifex. So no I don't think the rending changes overly hurt the stealers, they'll still just as good. Just not as good with killing tanks.

However as has also been pointed out, a few times, they'll hit it on rear armor, and with enough good glancing hits, they'll still kill a vehicle, or at the least render it useless. How many tanks have 14 rear armor ? Not many, and from that how many are immune to rending ? 1 the monolith.

So all that taken into consideration, your still telling me the rending nerf will leave stealers weak as babes in the woods ? Your still telling me Nids will have no way to kill tanks then, when they clearly will ?

Asking if I'll condone it is hardly the case. Nidzilla already is out there. I can hardly believe as is there are "other" lists the nid codex can pump out. That won't change with a rending nerf. Only thing that would change that would be if rending stayed the same and MC's got nerfed. Would you rather that ? For I would.

Max Jet
19-01-2008, 10:33
Hold it!



They don't need good rending, as with the forced marching canries they'll be getting to the vehicles much quicker then, then they do now.

You do realize forced march doesn't work, within 12" of an enemy unit? So the tanks are STILL faster and just drive away the next turn. The carnifex still won't make it to the tank. Anyway,,, he's moving at a speed of 9"/10" at you... you can move 12". So?


They don't need good rending, as with the forced marching canries they'll be getting to the vehicles much quicker then, then they do now.

That is a good point and the only thing I can hope for, but still. Look at a typical game with two decent brained gamers. The only time imperial tanks get blown up are
1 Lot's of venom cannon shots (get's slightly weaker now)
2 Lictors with rending attack (stays the same with hitting rear armour)
3 rending mobs ( get's very weak now)
4 Psychic choir (Is still unrelieable, short ranged, expensive and slow)

You will never ever see a MC making it into CC with a tank, unless your enemy sleeps, is bored or doesn't know the game mechanics.

Apart from Orcs, and kroot mercenaries this is by far the army with the least capability to destroy tanks parked between normal troops. It is not really fair their few possibilities HAVE to get weaker.

By the way... Nidzilla is as easy to beat, as any other list IF... o.k? IF you are prepared!

Damocles8
19-01-2008, 10:49
Alright, someone has to end this ****. STOP COMPARING THE ASSAULT CANNON WITH THE A-10 GUN. OK. The GAU-8 fire shells which can pierce tank armor by themselves, as in ONE ROUND. While the assault cannon, uses RENDING to get by the armor, as in HUNDREDS OF ROUNDS. UNDERSTAND? ONE S6 shot cannot get by AV 14, so firing more at it, SHOULD NOT PENETRATE THE ARMOR. Whereas ONE shot from the A-10 can blow through a tank, but it cant FIRE one shot because holding the trigger for 1 second fire like a few dozen rounds.

This is like me throwing a rock at a tank. It cant penetrate the armor, if i threw a billion rocks at 100 rocks a second at that tank, IT STILL WONT PENETRATE THE ARMOR.

Just to put crap on the record, the Assault Cannon is comparable to the .50 cal Minigun, hell maybe even M61 Vulcan if you push it, not the GAU8....

Stella, 1.5 rends from nine attacks? you gotta get some dice and roll them, then tell us the result.....

Stingray_tm
19-01-2008, 11:01
oh yes, because everyone measures that .0000001 of an inch:rolleyes:

I also have to say: You are so missing the point. No wonder you lose against Nids and complain. Please learn the rules. And maybe try to understand their meaning and intend.



thats pretty much the same problem for me, you CANNOT put out enough fire to kill 72 stealers.......but of course around here that just means I'm a bad commander for not having assault 100 boltguns
Well, you are not supposed to be able to kill 1440 points of the enemy army in two rounds of shooting. That would be totally unbalanced. What you want is this: Always destroy the enemy, before he has the chance to touch a single model of yours. Get real...

Psycoticspacemarine
19-01-2008, 12:13
Alright, someone has to end this ****. STOP COMPARING THE ASSAULT CANNON WITH THE A-10 GUN. OK. The GAU-8 fire shells which can pierce tank armor by themselves, as in ONE ROUND. While the assault cannon, uses RENDING to get by the armor, as in HUNDREDS OF ROUNDS. UNDERSTAND? ONE S6 shot cannot get by AV 14, so firing more at it, SHOULD NOT PENETRATE THE ARMOR. Whereas ONE shot from the A-10 can blow through a tank, but it cant FIRE one shot because holding the trigger for 1 second fire like a few dozen rounds.

This is like me throwing a rock at a tank. It cant penetrate the armor, if i threw a billion rocks at 100 rocks a second at that tank, IT STILL WONT PENETRATE THE ARMOR.

If every rock you throw puts even the slightest dent in the armor it will eventually fail. That is where the AC gets its rending. You pour 1000's of rounds into a concentrated area they will eventually punch through. BTW, to destroy a tank the GAU needs about 6 direct hits.


Just to put crap on the record, the Assault Cannon is comparable to the .50 cal Minigun, hell maybe even M61 Vulcan if you push it, not the GAU8....


The mini gun is a .30 cal weapon. It uses 7.62 ammunition. The Vulcan fires 20mm semi armor piercing rounds. So with enough of them you could take out or at least severely damage a tank.

catbarf
19-01-2008, 14:47
Psycotic, he doesn't mean 'the' minigun.

Angry, let me reiterate:

Do you really want troops that are slow, easy to kill, weak in melee, have no shooting, and cost more than Marines? Does that seem fair to you?

Even if you get in melee with them, it's not the end of the world. Conscripts, Nobz, Assault Marines- there are units that can kill them. Sure, its tough. Yes, the buggers will do a load of damage. But you can kill them once they're in melee. And you have ample time to kill them beforehand.

Maybe we should just go back a couple editions, to where Stealers had power weapons? Sound fair?

junglesnake
20-01-2008, 16:04
Uh, no, I did not say that.
Rending should stay the same, nids should keep rending, and assault cannons should be restricted (which has happened in certain marine codexes, but the majority of marines don't play those armies) or get improved stats but lose rending.

But you just have - its ok for unlimited amounts of rending attacks in a Nid army but a marine army must be restricted to say 8?

That's not on. Your stealers although not S6 get 3 attacks on the charge? That is three rending capable attacks per Stealer maybe more? Plus they are going to be in combat in at two-three turns def.

Like I said - why should Nids be the only ones to get rending? As for my tank idea - if you have one damned Nid scrabbling around on a tank the likely hood is it is going to take longer for it to find a weak spot than if say 10 of them are all scrabbling around. Once one of them finds a gap of some sort they would converge on said point and combine their efforts - this is "my" imagination of how Nids work.

Even in space hulk a single Stealer doesn't stand much of a chance but when they converge after locating their enemy there isn't much termies can do but say their prayers. On top of that terminator armour isn't the same as a tank! Comparing the two is a bit wayward but I get your point.

catbarf
20-01-2008, 16:19
But you just have - its ok for unlimited amounts of rending attacks in a Nid army but a marine army must be restricted to say 8?

That's not on. Your stealers although not S6 get 3 attacks on the charge? That is three rending capable attacks per Stealer maybe more? Plus they are going to be in combat in at two-three turns def.

Like I said - why should Nids be the only ones to get rending? As for my tank idea - if you have one damned Nid scrabbling around on a tank the likely hood is it is going to take longer for it to find a weak spot than if say 10 of them are all scrabbling around. Once one of them finds a gap of some sort they would converge on said point and combine their efforts - this is "my" imagination of how Nids work.

Even in space hulk a single Stealer doesn't stand much of a chance but when they converge after locating their enemy there isn't much termies can do but say their prayers. On top of that terminator armour isn't the same as a tank! Comparing the two is a bit wayward but I get your point.

Stealers are easy to kill, can only attack in melee, and are slow. All of which are unlike the units that carry Asscans. That's the difference. It's not the Rending that's broken so much as what carries it.

Stealers- Have to survive getting shot for three turns on average, then get into combat, and hope they don't die there since anything that gets multiple attacks will eat them for breakfast- and at the price of a Marine, that hurts. Even if they can go slaughtering happily, they only have two or three turns to do so before the game's up.

Asscans- Turn 1, LOL UR DED NOOB.

Do you see the difference?

kanluwen
20-01-2008, 17:27
You apparently have never seen an A-10 Thunderbolt tear open T-72's with its GAU-8/A Avenger gun which is just like an assault cannon

The GAU-8/A is the size of a VW bug. The shells are as large as a man in most cases. It was designed from the ground up to bust Soviet armor in the open areas of Germany when the Russians finally pushed for western Europe.

The assault cannon was designed to rip infantry apart.

Infantry do not equal tanks.
Rending is a rule that should only apply to when hitting infantry, NOT tanks.

catbarf
20-01-2008, 18:06
The GAU-8/A is the size of a VW bug. The shells are as large as a man in most cases. It was designed from the ground up to bust Soviet armor in the open areas of Germany when the Russians finally pushed for western Europe.

The assault cannon was designed to rip infantry apart.

Infantry do not equal tanks.
Rending is a rule that should only apply to when hitting infantry, NOT tanks.

In 2nd Ed., the AC was essentially a GAU. It killed everything. It was watered down in 3rd.

jobi
20-01-2008, 18:24
The GAU-8/A is the size of a VW bug. The shells are as large as a man in most cases.



As large as a man? That's a slight exaggeration, unless of course this "man" is 9-10" tall. Maybe as large as a GI Joe or Action Man doll.

You also have to remember this is 38,000 years in the future. This is a Sci-Fi game not to be confused with reality. They have explosive tips and fire really fast. I can see why people are complaining about vehicles but I feel the current rending rules against infantry are perfect.

If it hits you directly "a 6", it goes right through your armor and in most cases you as well.

Caboose123
20-01-2008, 18:33
I agree with Jobi, the current rending rules are fine aginst infantry,
and for both the asscannon, genestealers and even harlequins they need to be toned down against tanks. They should still be able to hurt tanks however...

AngryAngel
20-01-2008, 18:55
Psycotic, he doesn't mean 'the' minigun.

Angry, let me reiterate:

Do you really want troops that are slow, easy to kill, weak in melee, have no shooting, and cost more than Marines? Does that seem fair to you?

Even if you get in melee with them, it's not the end of the world. Conscripts, Nobz, Assault Marines- there are units that can kill them. Sure, its tough. Yes, the buggers will do a load of damage. But you can kill them once they're in melee. And you have ample time to kill them beforehand.

Maybe we should just go back a couple editions, to where Stealers had power weapons? Sound fair?


I am not saying they are slow or weak in melee. They are in fact, better at melee then assault marines. Yes they cost more then a marine for much higher combat ability.

No one is saying they are, or should be weak ass in CC. I just don't think they should be as good vs vehicles. As well I've been merely arguing the rending nerf won't make them useless. Which it won't. Thats it, they'll still be great in CC, just need to actually roll for damage, and not tear up a vehicle as fast. Which they won't need to, with faster moving Fexes.

catbarf
20-01-2008, 18:55
I agree with Jobi, the current rending rules are fine aginst infantry,
and for both the asscannon, genestealers and even harlequins they need to be toned down against tanks. They should still be able to hurt tanks however...

I agree, however I'm not sure Harlies or Stealers need to be nerfed against tanks. It's not very powerful right now- it requires a ton of attacks to destroy, and then the Stealers/Harlies may well die with their target. Not to mention that it's hard enough for them to get there.

Stingray_tm
20-01-2008, 19:26
I agree with Jobi, the current rending rules are fine aginst infantry,
and for both the asscannon, genestealers and even harlequins they need to be toned down against tanks. They should still be able to hurt tanks however...

Genestealers don't need to get toned down against tanks. Genestealers are needed for Nids to take down tanks AT ALL! We don't have meltaguns, Lascannons, Powerfists, Chainfists, Bright Lances, Fire Prims, you name it. All we have are MCs (and nobody wants to see more of them), very unreliable Zoanthropes and rending. We don't have anything else for taking down tanks. Rending them apart in cc is the Nid way of dealing with them and other armies don't need rending, because they have other ways, most of them working from turn 1 on.

In a typical Space Marine army almost any unit can destroy tanks and a lot of Eldar units can do it. Why should Nids be limited to two (Hive Tyrand and Carnifex) and even those only when specialiced for cc?

Chaplain Dionitas
23-01-2008, 18:16
Okay Comparing the the Asscannon to the A-10 Avenger was a bad example. Can everyone calm down now and stop roiding out? I imagine you're all sitting there having little hissyfits at your desk or respective basements. Another thing people seem to forget that it's ******* 40k! The future ooooo. One would think that 30,000 years in the future armor technology and armor piercing technology would've improved. Why don't we get into a debate on lance weapons? And then we can whine about the BT Blessed Hull rule which negates this?

Thanatos_elNyx
23-01-2008, 19:08
Is it me or is this new Rending very like Gauss?
If so what will Gauss be in the new codex or will Necrons simply get Rending on everything?

catbarf
23-01-2008, 19:49
I am not saying they are slow or weak in melee. They are in fact, better at melee then assault marines. Yes they cost more then a marine for much higher combat ability.

No one is saying they are, or should be weak ass in CC. I just don't think they should be as good vs vehicles. As well I've been merely arguing the rending nerf won't make them useless. Which it won't. Thats it, they'll still be great in CC, just need to actually roll for damage, and not tear up a vehicle as fast. Which they won't need to, with faster moving Fexes.

If they're balanced now and you implement a change that will result in 2/3 the kills against Termies without a price change, you just nerfed the unit.

And do you really want people to replace their melee anti-tank with Fexes? That's only encouraging Nidzilla.

Chaplain Dionitas
23-01-2008, 20:00
I knew Icould get this thread back on track!!

CHOO CHOOOOO!

BrainFireBob
23-01-2008, 20:08
Few misconceptions.

Yes, I can slaughter 'stealers with my heavy bolters and flamers- which I wouldn't take unless I knew I was facing stealers, and therefore aren't in a general list. It's disingenuous to represent Stealers needing rending for GP purposes and then modelling the opposing army as one optimized to destroy Stealers.

Secondly, this change will occur in a context.

Thirdly, as I mentioned in the other thread, Stealers are in fact allowed to assault side and rear armors as well as front, and there the glances will be numerous enough to make a large difference.

Fourth, nids will gain the ability to screen Stealers far better.

Fifth, it's definitely dishonest to model bolter shooting at Stealers with the 5+ save, when it's well-known the 4+ upgrade is exceedingly standard for them, and that 4+ changes the situation so strikingly.

Sixth- catbarf, you may play Nids, try playing against Nids without tailoring specifically to beat Nids. Sounds like your gaming group does one whole hell of a lot of tailoring, and that skews your experience to something unlike what many of the rest of us use. If not, feel free to correct me, but if so, realize that is emphatically not the gaming standard and stop assuming it to be the case unstated.

CrimsonTider
23-01-2008, 20:14
From what I have heard, rending will now be on 'to wound" rolls of a "6", not a "to hit roll". This will mean lots less rending wounds. I have been told that the rending rule against vehicles stays the same except if you roll a "6" for AP, then you get to roll an additional "D3", not a "D6". This means that the genestealer with strength 4 will have a maximum of 13 penetration ability, not enough to take out the front of a leman russ or any side of a land raider. Whihc makes sense to me, as I do not see a genestealer being able to take out a land raider.

I have not seen or heard anything about always attacking rear armor though. That is a new one to me.

BrainFireBob
23-01-2008, 20:21
Yes, against most infantry you're jumping from 1 in 6 rends to 1 in 9, on average- that's a 1/18 change. Which is not a large number compared to the number of attacks a Stealer unit can toss out. Five chargeing stealers will do 3 rends in place of 4.

Against tanks, that can't take out AV 14, and only have a fairly distant chance per attack against AV 13 on the front- which ignores the fact that on subsequent turns, not being locked, the sides and/or rear may be assaulted minimum (if not at the get-go) and that again, the high number of attacks will result in multiple chances still to take out the tank.

I'll admit, I've never liked rending against vehicles- even with Stealers- because based on volume of attacks it's too close to guaranteed to work if the unit makes it into combat. 40K doesn't work on guarantees, that's what makes it interesting.

Caboose123
23-01-2008, 20:24
I thought rending meant you glanced a vehicle (in the upcoming edition)...

Stealers do need to be toned down against tanks, especially since they can be hidden by hormagaunts... They almost always penetrated tanks once they reached a vehicle (barring reduced to glancing things)

@ Thanatos
Tucker said the part about unlocking someones death, its way too well articulated to be caboose

Stingray_tm
23-01-2008, 20:29
BrainFireBob: Oh come on. Basically you are telling us: "Well, maybe now you won't kill the tank on your first charge, but you can always try again next turn. Well the Genestealers, that survived the additional shooting phase might."

Stingray_tm
23-01-2008, 20:32
Guys, the problem is not, that rending got toned down. The problem is this:

- rending gets toned down
- vehicles get cover saves now
- glancing hits will not destroy vehicles
- vehicles just can take more damage, no matter if glancing or penetrating
- almost everything in the Tyranid arsenal is only able to glance AV13+

It's the combination. It's over the top. It's broken!

The venom cannon is especially useless. At the moment we don't really care about fast moving skimmers or other ways of reducing damage to glancing hits, because we can only glance anyway. In the future the vehicle will get a cover save in top of a drastically reduced glancing hit table, while not even cc units will be able to penetrate certain units most of the time.

If cc attacks rear armour and venom cannons get a drastic point reduction in the new codex, then this might be okay. If the changes turn out to be what is rumoured right now, there are only two options for me:

- Play 4th edition
- switch to Flames of War

Both are valid options in my gaming group.

BrainFireBob
23-01-2008, 20:33
And what's wrong with that?

Considering:

1) If you're in combat with their tank, you're probably in combat with their entire line.

2) If the Stealers are that close, the MCs should be right behind, and a higher priority. And no, I'm not discussing Nidzilla, but a horde-style Nid list, the one the designers intended/envisioned the Nids as.

So no, it's not farfetched at all. And your attitude in response does reveal a sense of entitlement that if you make contact with your Stealers, you deserve to annihilate whatever they charge. If not intended, my apologies, but that's what I'm hearing, and again, 40K doesn't work that way!

As to the combination:

My understanding is that vehicles can be glanced to death, it just takes more hits. Which the Stealers will certainly have.

Democratus
23-01-2008, 20:34
If the rumor about always striking the rear armor of a tank is true, then Genestealers will always penetrate all tanks except the Land Raider (AV 10)on a penetration roll of 6. This is better than their current rules - not worse.

Stingray_tm
23-01-2008, 20:40
And what's wrong with that?

Considering:

1) If you're in combat with their tank, you're probably in combat with their entire line.

2) If the Stealers are that close, the MCs should be right behind, and a higher priority. And no, I'm not discussing Nidzilla, but a horde-style Nid list, the one the designers intended/envisioned the Nids as.

So no, it's not farfetched at all. And your attitude in response does reveal a sense of entitlement that if you make contact with your Stealers, you deserve to annihilate whatever they charge. If not intended, my apologies, but that's what I'm hearing, and again, 40K doesn't work that way!

As to the combination:

My understanding is that vehicles can be glanced to death, it just takes more hits. Which the Stealers will certainly have.

That's a strange kind of reasoning. It's like telling a Space Marine player, whose whole army got reduce to BS3: "Hey, you can always shoot next turn. You are probably in range with the rest of your army anyway. The units that survived your fire this turn won't shoot at you and kill your stuff before your next turn, i promise!"

I should have a fair chance of annihalting a tank with Genestealers. Right now you statistically would need more than 100 rending attacks against AV13 with 4 weapons, in order to completely destroy it. Given that the vehicle didn't move!!! It is not possible to glance vehicles to death, it just takes too many attacks.

BrainFireBob
23-01-2008, 20:46
Are you basing that on the current chart, or the rumored one?

In all frankness, we only know the shape of the new edition, not all the specifics. The worst that will happen (from the Nid player perspective), considering the mix of buffs and the rending nerf, is that stealers will be somewhat nerfed, and Nids will bump down a tad in terms of combetitiveness. Currently, they sit comfortably fairly high. The best that will happen (from the Nid player perspective) is that a quirk of mechanics will make Nids far better/more true to background. These are our two endpoints.

Personally, I'm well-reminded of the Eldar codex rumor debates, because the starcannon nerf and elimination of the seer council and ranger disruption charts will completely destroy the Eldar and make them unplayable. That was presented as fact, too.

Bob5000
23-01-2008, 20:50
I find the ability of an angry Death Company Marine being able to rip open a *Landraider in a fit of pique laughable .
Genestealers abilty to do the same is a bit suspect , along with Harlies and so forth .

Assault Cannons , they appear to be more effective at destroying *Landraider than a Lascannon , which I am not sure should be so , however , I can live with the Assault cannon doing this more than the CC rending *Landraider destroying capabilies of the afforementioned angry Death Company marine et al

*for example

Stingray_tm
23-01-2008, 20:55
BrainFireBob: We are discussing the rumoured rending changes in context of all other rumoured changes (including the new chart). If you think it's too early to form an opinion, that is okay, but then don't. Especially don't try to convince me, that the rumoured rending changes are okay, if you think it's too early to form an opinion.

Either discuss the situation at hand (all rumours) or don't. But please do not just pick what suits your point.

BrainFireBob
23-01-2008, 21:26
Stingray:

I think Stealers will surprise Nid players in the new edition- if MCs fleet, then they become a much larger shooting priority. Added to better screening, and I expect more CC with more surviving Stealers, not a Stealer nerf. You read the opposite.

Concluding one interpretation or the other as fact is what I see as too early.

catbarf
23-01-2008, 21:49
I find the ability of an angry Death Company Marine being able to rip open a *Landraider in a fit of pique laughable .
Genestealers abilty to do the same is a bit suspect , along with Harlies and so forth .

Assault Cannons , they appear to be more effective at destroying *Landraider than a Lascannon , which I am not sure should be so , however , I can live with the Assault cannon doing this more than the CC rending *Landraider destroying capabilies of the afforementioned angry Death Company marine et al

*for example

You find it difficult to believe that once out of eighteen times the crazy Death Company marine can rip off the top hatch with his chainsword, jump in, and kill the crew as well as shredding important bits?

max the dog
23-01-2008, 22:06
I've heard at least 3 different versions of the new rending and I don't like any of them. The most recent rumor is that vrs armor it will allow an extra d3 to penetrate. That means that AV14 is completely invulnerable to Genestealers, Nid Warriors, and Raveners. In the nid list only monstrous creatures can hurt AV14 so that will effectively kill the horde list from any kind of competitive play.
If people weren't complaining enough about the popularity of zilla armies well it's only going to get worse. Now those big beasts will be able to run. All of which means that the next nid codex (in ? years) is going to nerf zilla's big time.
All GW needs to do to get a bit more balance in rending is reduce it's power for ranged attacks. It's their boneheaded decision to give it to the assault cannon that started the rending problem. Since then giving it to every army that needed a bit more power just made the problem worse.
If anything the past 9 pages should tell GW designers is that any reduction in rending is going to be a near critical blow to the Tyranids because we have so few other options to destroy armor and none of them are any good. Running fex's will help but it won't solve the problem. They need to come up with something else to allow the nid infantry to deal with tanks.

chosen of chaos
23-01-2008, 22:07
i think rending should be like the old axe of khorne(every 6 you roll gets you another attack) or i think it was called axe of khorne

catbarf
23-01-2008, 22:17
i think rending should be like the old axe of khorne(every 6 you roll gets you another attack) or i think it was called axe of khorne

Now there's an idea. Wouldn't work too well with Stealers, but for the Assault Cannon at least it lets them shred troops.

Captain Micha
23-01-2008, 22:54
You find it difficult to believe that once out of eighteen times the crazy Death Company marine can rip off the top hatch with his chainsword, jump in, and kill the crew as well as shredding important bits?

without himself getting shot in the face by everyone in it? yes. *L*

azimaith
23-01-2008, 23:00
I'm not going to have a big problem with the change when I get to flip that smug raider over with a carnifex.

I understand the need for a rending change, they just need to add in something for tyranids to pop vehicles with that doesn't involve glancing, D3's, or being monstrous creature exclusive.

Warp blast is to unreliable, the chances of it killing a vehicle are ridiculous, same with bio acid.

CrimsonTider
24-01-2008, 13:07
If the chart I have seen for the new rules is correct, you can destroy a tank with glancing hits, it just takes more of them. "Weapons destroyed" results become "immobilized" results when all the weapons have been destroyed. "Immobilized" results become "weapon destroyed" results when vehicle is already immobilized. If the vehicle is already immobilized and has no more weapons, then the result changes the "wrecked", which is a dead tank. So enough glancing hits to destroy all its weapons and immobilize it can take out a tank, it just takes a few shots to do so.

Firaxin
24-01-2008, 13:31
Stingray:

I think Stealers will surprise Nid players in the new edition- if MCs fleet, then they become a much larger shooting priority. Added to better screening, and I expect more CC with more surviving Stealers, not a Stealer nerf. You read the opposite.

Concluding one interpretation or the other as fact is what I see as too early.

No, not really--tyranid players are complaining about an army nerf, including warriors, raveners, lictors, etc. Not just stealers.

Raverrn
24-01-2008, 15:29
I contest that 'nid players just like to complain. Even if they don't destroy a vehicle, it still can't shoot or move or whatnot.

Stingray_tm
24-01-2008, 15:43
I contest that 'nid players just like to complain. Even if they don't destroy a vehicle, it still can't shoot or move or whatnot.

Unless they have machine spirit, are possessed or have some other thing that even negates these results.

And now i managed to stun the vehicle. What next? Well, i have to stun it again, instead of killing stuff with my army, while other armies just blow up the tank and are done with it.

Raverrn
24-01-2008, 15:46
Not true. I play GK and stunning vehicles works just fine for me.

Templar-Sun
24-01-2008, 16:26
Personally, I think the only change needed is rending on to wound rolls and glance(no pens) only on armor. I think this is basically what they are doing. Rending on to hit rolls always felt wrong anyway. As said above, this will reduce rending effectiveness against armor but not nerf it. Destroying armor will still be possible as stealers will still be able to make mass amount of attacks vs armor. The AC is what is going to be nerfed... You won't see anyone trying to take out armor with AC's anymore and they will be trained onto infantry as they should be.

Templar-Sun

Thanatos_elNyx
24-01-2008, 17:19
@ Thanatos
Tucker said the part about unlocking someones death, its way too well articulated to be caboose

I assure you it was Caboose, and yes Nutmeg is the most evil spice!

BrainFireBob
24-01-2008, 17:45
No, not really--tyranid players are complaining about an army nerf, including warriors, raveners, lictors, etc. Not just stealers.

Firaxin- you are complaining about an army nerf.

The other Nid players are all mono-focused on Stealers in their posting.

blackroyal
24-01-2008, 18:16
I would say that is because stealers are the most universally used nid unit.

Firaxin
24-01-2008, 19:30
They recognize the problem, they're just arguing with people who think stealers would be overpowered without rending, and/or with people who think the nids shouldn't have any unit capable of hurting a terminator aside from MCs. ;)

It doesn't help that the non-nid players are only talking about stealers. You can't exactly respond to them while ignoring the point of their post.

Stella Cadente
24-01-2008, 19:53
It doesn't help that the non-nid players are only talking about stealers.
I didn't :D, I said there were other things for taking out tanks, but there too two-dimensional to see I think

Templar-Sun
24-01-2008, 19:56
I'm not talking about stealers, I'm talking about rending... AC's get redirection toward infantry which is how it should be. The changes do make it more difficult to stealers to take out armor instead of automatic which is the way it should be as well. They can still take out armor thru sheer numbers of attacks which again, is the way it should be. IMHO of course...


Templar-Sun

Damocles8
24-01-2008, 20:15
so let me get this straight, genestealers (S4), assuming the assaulting tanks rule is coming, make their flurry of attacks on the tank's rear armor; x amount hit, so x dice are rolled, except for the Land Raider and super heavies, most rear armors are 10....so out of that flurry of attacks, any 6's give the rending d3, so 4+6=10, so you WON'T be glancing an enemy to death if you assault it.....now the few exceptions being Land Raiders (which won't have more than 3 in a standard game (less if your opponent is smart), Super Heavie's, such as Baneblades (rear 12?) and even then only in Apocalypse games....while you have NO TANKS TO SPEAK OF, I have been forced to think about an opponent's likely choice for vehicles, most of the time it comes up to killing tanks or killing MC's, now I honestly don't see how it's a lot easier to kill a Land Raider than to kill an MC but that's just me....So your stealers should be able to eat any armor that they can manage to assault regardless of it's front armor

catbarf
24-01-2008, 20:22
The changes do make it more difficult to stealers to take out armor instead of automatic which is the way it should be as well.

Automatic? Are you kidding? On average, under current rules it requires 36 hits to destroy a Land Raider. That's a lot of Stealers.


They can still take out armor thru sheer numbers of attacks which again, is the way it should be.

No, under the new rules they will not be able to at all. Glances cannot destroy under new rules, which is going to nerf Nids hard.

Stella Cadente
24-01-2008, 20:33
No, under the new rules they will not be able to at all. Glances cannot destroy under new rules, which is going to nerf genestealers hard but not Tyranids as a whole
thats better

Bob5000
24-01-2008, 20:39
You find it difficult to believe that once out of eighteen times the crazy Death Company marine can rip off the top hatch with his chainsword, jump in, and kill the crew as well as shredding important bits?

Yes , got it in one

BrainFireBob
24-01-2008, 20:55
Catbarf, glances *can*.

Marius Xerxes
24-01-2008, 21:04
Yeah if you glance all the weapons off, and Imobolize it, then yes it can be destroyed. But considering, under the new rules, the only Steelers that can hurt it have to be upgraded to STR 5 first.

Then only those who rolls a 6, then further on to roll another 5 or 6 to get that glance.

Not to mention the roll to hit, depending on if, and if so, how far the vehicle moved.

Considering its an assault Vehicle that LR might be rolling around 12" a turn. Thats a lot of 6's to roll in a row.

catbarf
24-01-2008, 21:13
I think Nidzilla is the best thing evar!!11 lol

See, I can quote things you didn't really say too!

Venom Cannons can no longer kill unless all the weapons are shot off and the tank is immobilized. With that, there are three options:

1. Use a Zoanthrope, which is very expensive, easy to kill, and has an extremely short range and only hits half the time.

2. Use Barbed Stranglers, which are not a high enough S to damage bigger things.

3. Use melee fexes, which only encourages Nidzilla.

So, I need to either use the extremely inefficient Zoanthropes, or go Nidzilla.

That's a pretty big change.

Raging Demon
24-01-2008, 21:14
The glancing nerf and the rending nerf would be brutal for the tyranid army. A lot of tyranid units other than genestealers rely on rending and the one long range AT weapon in the tyranid army can only glance.

Marius Xerxes
24-01-2008, 21:18
Well for all those armies that roll around with one, or mutiple AV 14 vehicles, they might have an issue with that one model.

Or, Since its not scoring anymore.. maybe it should just be ignored and focus on the troop killyness of the rest of said army. Considering how little a vehicle can even move to be at max firepower, if it moves at all, it in of itself is not a concern.. and if it dosent move.. a LR can kill what max.. 5 models? Not really a concern for a nid army I wouldnt think.

Raging Demon
24-01-2008, 21:26
The venom cannon can only glance regardless of the vehicles armor, MC's didn't get any tougher to kill and even if you manage get the assault rending still won't kill them. A change like that would be outrageous and very detrimental to tyranids.

catbarf
24-01-2008, 21:28
Well for all those armies that roll around with one, or mutiple AV 14 vehicles, they might have an issue with that one model.

Or, Since its not scoring anymore.. maybe it should just be ignored and focus on the troop killyness of the rest of said army. Considering how little a vehicle can even move to be at max firepower, if it moves at all, it in of itself is not a concern.. and if it dosent move.. a LR can kill what max.. 5 models? Not really a concern for a nid army I wouldnt think.

So you're saying that the Tyranid response to vehicle should be to ignore them. Yeah, that's real balanced.

Marius Xerxes
24-01-2008, 21:36
Im saying if its 1 or 2 vehicles, which cant kill very much, and cant score.. yes, tactics say to ignore it and focus on something else.

But I guess if you have to be able to have a sure fire way to kill anything and everything that could ever be used against you..:rolleyes:

Im sure a Flyrant could make short work of one. A Zoanthroap. IIRC its not a Monstrous Creature so it is shielded by its other units. It can take that 1 or 2 vehicles out.

EDIT: Even with new points costs, not being scoring, a LR is still going to be seen about as often as it is now.. not very much. A Monolith ill give you could be a problem, but again, its 1 model. Unless you get surprised by a Super Heavy (which ya shouldnt) ive never seen 1 model be soemthing that made the entirety of your own army not worth playing or shafted since you cant kill it.

catbarf
24-01-2008, 21:41
But I guess if you have to be able to have a sure fire way to kill anything and everything that could ever be used against you..:rolleyes:

You mean like a lascannon? Or meltagun? Is it really so wrong to have a weapon that can do more than scratch the side armor of a tank?

Not to mention, if Genestealers can still tear through a Terminator's armor, why can't they do that to a tank hatch or vent- vulnerable areas in themselves?


Im sure a Flyrant could make short work of one. A Zoanthroap. IIRC its not a Monstrous Creature so it is shielded by its other units. It can take that 1 or 2 vehicles out.

Flyrant = Nidzilla
Zoanthrope = Expensive, slow, vulnerable, short-ranged, unreliable, inaccurate, suicidal- downright useless for the price.

Neither are particularly desirable.

BrainFireBob
24-01-2008, 21:42
Considering that winning revolves around claiming objectives, and that the ability of tanks to shoot will be taking a bit of a nosedive- or did you ignore those rumored changes?- then yes, you *can* ignore them. Again, you have to look at how everything changes- not just how your army alone will change. Its opponents will change as well.

Also look at Zoats in context. Screening? Running? (First affects their "fragility," the second their short range) Now, they are expensive. So're the tanks they're a threat to, and any other race's anti-tank.

EDIT: ALL, or near all, TMCs is Nidzilla. One or two MCs is not Nidzilla. That's a deliberate misrepresentation too.

Stella Cadente
24-01-2008, 21:42
why are you so worried about not being able to kill vehicles anyway?, what the average number of vehicles in a 2000pts game
2 main tanks (lets say predators)
2 transports (rhinos)
2 skimmers (speeders)
(just as an example number)
so are you trying to tell me that without rending, you will NEVER be able to destroy any of those and your nerfed because of it?
right main tanks you can use a tyrant with wings on or just a couple (yes 2) carnifexes, that should do the trick and its NOT nidzilla since its only 3 MC's
Rhinos, well warriors could handle them quite nicely I think, no obvious reasons why not, get behind them and bang, there dead, or just shoot them to immobilize them (practically dead for a transport)
Speeders?, well anything with str4 or above can kill them, just imobilize them
there you go thats 3 vehicles that are common dead
was it hard?
NO


Flyrant = Nidzilla

in your mind 1flyrant = Nidzilla?, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight:eyebrows:

catbarf
24-01-2008, 21:47
why are you so worried about not being able to kill vehicles anyway?, what the average number of vehicles in a 2000pts game
2 main tanks (lets say predators)
2 transports (rhinos)
2 skimmers (speeders)
(just as an example number)
so are you trying to tell me that without rending, you will NEVER be able to destroy any of those and your nerfed because of it?
right main tanks you can use a tyrant with wings on or just a couple (yes 2) carnifexes, that should do the trick and its NOT nidzilla since its only 3 MC's
Rhinos, well warriors could handle them quite nicely I think, no obvious reasons why not, get behind them and bang, there dead, or just shoot them to immobilize them (practically dead for a transport)
Speeders?, well anything with str4 or above can kill them, just imobilize them
there you go thats 3 vehicles that are common dead
was it hard?
NO

Two Fexes? With what? Venom Cannons can no longer destroy vehicles. Nothing else is remotely efficient. Melee fexes are shot by every lascannon in the enemy army. Even a Tyrant lacks the S to do significant damage to heavier vehicles (and it is unreliable at best against lighter ones). How do I get behind a transport with footslogging troops? How do I actually kill them then? Even supposing that my Winged Warriors can get in close, that's a whole lot of points for an attack against a transport that isn't by any means a guaranteed kill.


Considering that winning revolves around claiming objectives, and that the ability of tanks to shoot will be taking a bit of a nosedive- or did you ignore those rumored changes?- then yes, you *can* ignore them. Again, you have to look at how everything changes- not just how your army alone will change. Its opponents will change as well.

So what do I do against a mechanized list? Shut up, sit down, and die gracefully?


Also look at Zoats in context. Screening? Running? (First affects their "fragility," the second their short range) Now, they are expensive. So're the tanks they're a threat to, and any other race's anti-tank.

Still far too expensive for what is a meltagun with BS3, a chance of killing itself, a chance of the power not working at all, and in any case doesn't get the special Melta ability. No thanks.

BrainFireBob
24-01-2008, 21:49
Mechanized lists aren't composed of AV13+ vehicles. So Rending is quite sufficient. More, as a rule transports don't pack that many guns, so they're easier to glance to death.

Unless you're discussing Armored Company in specific, in which case there's not that many models and you'll have to get around to the sides or rear. Then again, pretty much everyone does against armored company.

EDIT: Hey, you don't want to use your army's option for eliminating tanks, that's not a game design problem. That's your choice. Not having a better available choice in terms of availability means that shooting tanks is the primary Nid drawback. Armies have drawbacks.

Templar-Sun
24-01-2008, 21:51
Hmmm, a flyrant comes to mind.. Interesting how you conveniently left that one out. I'm no fan of creating more reasons to build nid-zilla other than its kinda cool. Infantry rarely are able to take out armor, the best time being when they are idle. Armor on the move is nearly unstoppable and it would be suicidal for infantry to even try. Your stealers are infantry and are very well equipped to destroy opposition infantry which is supposed to be their role. Genestealers hunting armor is ridic, you have other means as we cannot expect our infantry to take MC's. Why in the world is anyone wasting time trying to destroy a transport anyway?? This is not a nerf, it brings things more into balance. Again, these are just my opinions and musings...


Templar-Sun

BrainFireBob
24-01-2008, 21:52
Liths suck. That's their special ability. Crons phase out, though, and Nids excel at eliminating things in CC- the Cron weakness.

catbarf
24-01-2008, 21:54
Mechanized lists aren't composed of AV13+ vehicles. So Rending is quite sufficient. More, as a rule transports don't pack that many guns, so they're easier to glance to death.

Unless you're discussing Armored Company in specific, in which case there's not that many models and you'll have to get around to the sides or rear. Then again, pretty much everyone does against armored company.

If Rending only glances in the new rules, and glancing cannot destroy unless all the guns are gone and the vehicle is immobilized, then it is still not efficient enough to be considered anti-tank. It is difficult at best to get into melee with a transport, nigh-impossible against a skimmer. And why shouldn't a mechanized list have tanks? 3 Falcons, or 3 Hammerheads, or 3 Ravagers, or 3 Russes- any opponent can take far more tanks than my Genestealers can deal with.


Hmmm, a flyrant comes to mind... Moves 12" assaults 6" and gets 2d6 to pen... Interesting how you conveniently left that one out.

I'm sorry, I forgot. Nonetheless, it isn't exactly the most efficient anti-tank system.


EDIT: Hey, you don't want to use your army's option for eliminating tanks, that's not a game design problem. That's your choice. Not having a better available choice in terms of availability means that shooting tanks is the primary Nid drawback. Armies have drawbacks.

1. What option? Nidzilla?
2. A drawback? Since when is a drawback not being able to hurt a good chunk of an army? The example I see tossed about most is Tau and CC. Well, Tau can make up for it. They can shoot CC units before they get close, and remove the threat. Tyranids cannot remove the threat of enemy tanks with any reliability.

Raging Demon
24-01-2008, 21:56
Regardless of how you try to explain it, it still reduces the effectiveness of tyranids in general. Even if vehicles can't capture objectives they can still shoot your troops to render them unable to do so as well. Ignoring vehicles is not a strategy, try that against my 9 vehicle 1500pt mech guard army.

blackroyal
24-01-2008, 21:57
Liths suck. That's their special ability. Crons phase out, though, and Nids excel at eliminating things in CC- the Cron weakness.

Except that "sucky" liths can pull things out of CC. Also, crons can stand up again.

Stella Cadente
24-01-2008, 21:59
Two Fexes? With what? Venom Cannons can no longer destroy vehicles. Nothing else is remotely efficient. Melee fexes are shot by every lascannon in the enemy army. Even a Tyrant lacks the S to do significant damage to heavier vehicles (and it is unreliable at best against lighter ones). How do I get behind a transport with footslogging troops? How do I actually kill them then? Even supposing that my Winged Warriors can get in close, that's a whole lot of points for an attack against a transport that isn't by any means a guaranteed kill.
hey if you don't wanna think how to use your army I ain't gonna do it for yah

if your worried about your fexes getting shot, well theres this little thing called COVER its been around for quite a while and what it does you see is it can protect your troops from shooting while you advance, I know amazing isnt it, sometimes you can actually hide entire models :eek:

Tyrants Lack the str? they have 2d6 penetration for christ sake, and since rumors say you always strike the rear, what the hell are you moaning like a 4yr old about?

you can get behind transpors EASY, you have these things called WINGS, and beleive it or not you can FLY using them behind your enemies vehicles:eek:, you don't need to use half your army to do it.

So what do I do against a mechanized list? Shut up, sit down, and die gracefully?
no, you use terrain to your advantage, you think before making any movements, you act tactical
I guess its hard to do when your used to Genestealers, they require as much thought as a brick

Templar-Sun
24-01-2008, 22:01
Catbarf, I'm agreeing with you in this change makes stealers less effective against vehicles. Our only difference, I believe, is you think they should and I don't. My Templars against nid opponents, I've always thought it was funny how they would send there troops at my armor and the MC's at my infantry. Its effective, but backwards.


Templar-Sun

Marius Xerxes
24-01-2008, 22:02
Well the others responded to the many .. misrepresentations you brought up so I dont need to respond to those.

In terms of weaponry like a Lascannon or Melta Gun lets look at closer.

A lascannon still needs to roll a 5+ to have any effect on AV14. Hardly a sure thing. Melta Guns are only useful if within half range with AV 14. Especially since the AP 1 = Alaways Penetrate is gone.

The Longest Range Mela Weapon I can think of is only 24", and only truly effective at 12".

catbarf
24-01-2008, 22:04
hey if you don't wanna think how to use your army I ain't gonna do it for yah

if your worried about your fexes getting shot, well theres this little thing called COVER its been around for quite a while and what it does you see is it can protect your troops from shooting while you advance, I know amazing isnt it, sometimes you can actually hide entire models :eek:

Tyrants Lack the str? they have 2d6 penetration for christ sake, and since rumors say you always strike the rear, what the hell are you moaning like a 4yr old about?

you can get behind transpors EASY, you have these things called WINGS, and beleive it or not you can FLY using them behind your enemies vehicles:eek:, you don't need to use half your army to do it.

no, you use terrain to your advantage, you think before making any movements, you act tactical
I guess its hard to do when your used to Genestealers, they require as much thought as a brick

Now I want you to think about this for a second. If I have two Fexes and a Tyrant in my army, what are the enemy Lascannons going to shoot at?

Besides, you say 'Just use cover!'. What's to say he won't put his tanks where you can't get behind them, or won't drive away when you get close, or just Melta you when you come out in the open?

Why the heck do you assume that I have all these options open to me, and he has none at all?

I was wrong about Tyrants, that is true. Still, having one unit that is decent at anti-tank does not a balanced army make.

Come to think of it, that makes CC fexes useless. Even if under the new rules they can fleet, that's still only 9.5" per turn. So, two turns to get close, then a third to move in and charge- you've already lost a third of the game, and that's assuming you go in a straight line. If I go screwing around in cover, I'll have even less time trying to move through difficult terrain.

Or am I just supposed to park my Fexes behind a wall and leave them there? Use your head for a second.


In terms of weaponry like a Lascannon or Melta Gun lets look at closer.

A lascannon still needs to roll a 5+ to have any effect on AV14. Hardly a sure thing. Melta Guns are only useful if within half range with AV 14. Especially since the AP 1 = Alaways Penetrate is gone.

And yet, a Lascannon is still far more effective than any other gun the Tyranids have, as well as many of their melee units.


The Longest Range Mela Weapon I can think of is only 24", and only truly effective at 12".

High power Warp Blast is only 18" range. Even without the special bonuses, a meltagun is still superior in every way other than range.

Stella Cadente
24-01-2008, 22:13
Or am I just supposed to park my Fexes behind a wall and leave them there? Use your head for a second.

well..........actually nevermind, you have fun ignoring 80% of your codex

Marius Xerxes
24-01-2008, 22:13
Also rending is not *ONLY* glance. You can Penn with Rending in the new rules.

Raging Demon
24-01-2008, 22:14
Catbarf is right on this one, if you played as tyranids for any amount of time you would see how relevant his points are. Flying tyrants that spend the game chasing vehicles die very fast and cover is hard to come by when you're trying to rush down the field as efficiently as you can.

Warriors, Lictors, ravagers and broodlords would become much less effective against infantry and less so against vehicles.

catbarf
24-01-2008, 22:16
well..........actually nevermind, you have fun ignoring 80% of your codex

You can't screen monstrous creatures under the new rules. Do your research.


Also rending is not *ONLY* glance. You can Penn with Rending in the new rules.

From what I've read it works like Gauss. What do you think it is?

Marius Xerxes
24-01-2008, 22:22
You can't screen monstrous creatures under the new rules. Do your research.

Before saying for someone to do their reasearch, id do some of your own as well. The new Rending rules say nothing about only being able to glance. I have a copy of the rules, as many others do, and I can tell you is yes the best you can do to Armour 14 is glance if your STR 5 or less as a Rending unit.

Remember, STR 5 or less.. anything higher you can Pen AV 14.

Poliferation of long range, anti-big stuff has been toned down with new codex releases and the new vehicle rules. I think a Flyrant will have a better time moving around then before.

Granted Marines hasent been hit yet, but I would imaigne since its GW's baby, it will be done in short oder with the new 5th release.

catbarf
24-01-2008, 22:27
Before saying for someone to do their reasearch, id do some of your own as well. The new Rending rules say nothing about only being able to glance. I have a copy of the rules, as many others do, and I can tell you is yes the best you can do to Armour 14 is glance if your STR 5 or less as a Rending unit.

Remember, STR 5 or less.. anything higher you can Pen AV 14.

Poliferation of long range, anti-big stuff has been toned down with new codex releases and the new vehicle rules. I think a Flyrant will have a better time moving around then before.

Granted Marines hasent been hit yet, but I would imaigne since its GW's baby, it will be done in short oder with the new 5th release.

So Lictors and upgraded Broodlords can Penetrate vehicles. Woohoo. Break out the champagne and cigarettes boys, a new era dawns.

Oh, and by the way- Powerfist. Splat. Tyrants are still nowhere near untouchable. Ranged weapons aren't the only thing that can hurt them, all it takes is for there to be one Marine squad within 12" of the Tyrant and it's toast. Even if they can't kill it in one turn, tied down it is easy prey for assault specialists. Even five attacks (2x ScyTal) isn't enough when you're only getting 3.33 hits and 2.22 wounds per turn on average.

Marius Xerxes
24-01-2008, 22:34
P'fists took a hit too by the way. Just to let ya know. And with the way new HtH works, there is a good chance that those Marines arent going to stick around, even with a LD 10 from a Master on the board.

Defcon
24-01-2008, 22:36
I must say Catbarf is literally the only Tyranid player I have ever seen either on the Internet or heard from in real life that thinks so badly of Zoanthropes.

Where is this coming from? They aren't expensive, they are not easy to kill (2+ save and two wounds that can't catch ID if they have synapse doesn't sound easy in almost ANY game)... Seriously. What?

catbarf
24-01-2008, 22:41
I must say Catbarf is literally the only Tyranid player I have ever seen either on the Internet or heard from in real life that thinks so badly of Zoanthropes.

Where is this coming from? They aren't expensive, they are not easy to kill (2+ save and two wounds that can't catch ID if they have synapse doesn't sound easy in almost ANY game)... Seriously. What?

You must not look too hard. Here are the problems:

-Dies too fast to Lascannons or PFists.
-Costs 55pts, bare minimum for anti-tank role.
-Needs to take a psychic test to use the anti-tank attack.
-All it takes is a 5-man Guardsmen squad in melee, and BAM! You're out of the rest of the game.
-Short ranged
-Inaccurate

It's not that it looks spectacularly useless on paper, it's that it costs far too much for what is essentially a meltagun on a moderately tough platform. It might not be the easiest thing to kill, but it's not very good in an offensive role. I use a couple for Synapse and Scream, but as offensive, anti-tank units they're mediocre at best.

Marius Xerxes
24-01-2008, 22:48
I woudlnt worry so much until you get a chance to read over all the rules, including missions, and also get to play test rather then look and assume.

I promise you that there are changes that make things less effective, but at the same time for what your going to do with the army, which is have fun and win, you will still be very safe doing both.

Templar-Sun
24-01-2008, 22:50
Personally, if my infantry is in cc with you mc. I've either done something wrong or you are really good. My infantry is not a counter to your mc, its a counter to your infantry...
I will agree that I have not played nids and cannot fully grasp the nature of what you guys are feeling. A nerf is a nerf is a nerf and they all suck really. I'm just not sure, "the sky is falling!" is the appropriate response to infantry being less effective against armor. I have however experienced that feeling before myself and can understand it.

Templar-Sun

Stingray_tm
25-01-2008, 00:23
hey if you don't wanna think how to use your army I ain't gonna do it for yah


What? Is that really what you are saying? That's basically:

"Okay, you voiced your concern, that your army will be nerfed. I can't come up with any arguments and i have no idea how i would do it, but that's not my problem. It couldn't probably mean, that you are right, because I AM always right. So you are just not thinking hard enough. You find a way. So i won that argument by default."

You aren't really serious, are you?

Stingray_tm
25-01-2008, 00:28
I must say Catbarf is literally the only Tyranid player I have ever seen either on the Internet or heard from in real life that thinks so badly of Zoanthropes.

Where is this coming from? They aren't expensive, they are not easy to kill (2+ save and two wounds that can't catch ID if they have synapse doesn't sound easy in almost ANY game)... Seriously. What?

Ever tried to take Zoas against Eldar (almost 50% of frying themselves) or Space Marines, with the enemy having psychic hood, you have a chance of 1/9 to get a penetrating hit on a Land Raider. And i didn't even take into account the psychic test (because i was too lazy to work out it's probability. So you need 3 Zoanthropes shooting for three turns (!!!) in order to get a penetrating hit. And then you have less of a chance, that you will actually destroy the damn thing. And THEN it might be behind cover, giving it an additional save!
Zoanthropes are fine, when you are facing some armies or go MEQ-hunting (especially with the new blast rules). But they are NOT reliable tank hunters. The tanks that they can hunt decently, are the ones where even the new rending is capable of doing enough damage. That is: only very few tanks.

Stella Cadente
25-01-2008, 00:29
What? Is that really what you are saying? That's basically:

"Okay, you voiced your concern, that your army will be nerfed. I can't come up with any arguments and i have no idea how i would do it, but that's not my problem. It couldn't probably mean, that you are right, because I AM always right. So you are just not thinking hard enough. You find a way. So i won that argument by default."

You aren't really serious, are you?
thats not what I said at all, your interpritation is all messed up
what I AM saying is
"Okay, you voiced your concern, that your GENESTEALERS will be SLIGHTLY nerfed. I COULD come up with any NUMBER OF arguments and i have PLENTY OF ideaS how i would do it, but TELLING YOU WOULD BE A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME BECAUSE YOU REFUSE TO SEE THAT THERE ARE MORE TO TYRANIDS THAN GENESTEALERS, BUT that's not my problem. So you are just not thinking hard enough. You find a way."

Stingray_tm
25-01-2008, 00:31
Then tell me, what units there are, that can take out AV13+? You said it's 80% of the Nid codex. So you might start naming them, please.

Captain Micha
25-01-2008, 00:32
well, stingray, you won't have to worry about vehicles being mobile anymore, (or probably not even used honestly) given how retarded the vehicle shooting rules are going to be.

Stingray_tm
25-01-2008, 00:34
Really? I thought they still can fire their main weapon while moving up to 6"? That's enough, i think.

Stella Cadente
25-01-2008, 00:40
Then tell me, what units there are, that can take out AV13+? You said it's 80% of the Nid codex. So you might start naming them, please.
noooooo, I said IGNORING 80% OF THE CODEX, I never said that 80% could kill tanks
BUT if I was to do a nid force capable of taking on most things, I would go
close combat flying Tyrant
2 Units of Warriors, with wings, average str gun, and average Close combat things
2 Units of genestealers
2 Carnifexes kitted out for Close combat and long range, with armour and toughness upgrades
and whatever is left of my points on Cheap gaunts, Ravenors, Lictors, and Zoanthorpes

Captain Micha
25-01-2008, 00:42
fexes move farther than 6" as do the rest of the nid units. You can simply catch up to them and beat them to hell.

yeah, and that will be the only weapon they will be firing, since defensive weapons are str 4 or -lower- now. vehicles went from being barely a factor in most games to being all but not one. and on top of that, they hacked 6" of movement off of fast vehicles max movement range. let alone vehicles are not scoring now. I think I could stomach most of the changes, but the kicking vehicles in the nuts I don't think I am able to stomach really. They were bad enough before, now they are even worse. :cries:

Stingray_tm
25-01-2008, 00:51
noooooo, I said IGNORING 80% OF THE CODEX, I never said that 80% could kill tanks
BUT if I was to do a nid force capable of taking on most things, I would go
close combat flying Tyrant
2 Units of Warriors, with wings, average str gun, and average Close combat things
2 Units of genestealers
2 Carnifexes kitted out for Close combat and long range, with armour and toughness upgrades
and whatever is left of my points on Cheap gaunts, Ravenors, Lictors, and Zoanthorpes

So the whole enemy arme concentrages fire on the Flyrant, then has enough time take out two slow Carnifexes (or do you intend to shoot AND march at the same time?) and then nothing will be able to kill the Land Raider.

Also you just see the reason, why it is now impossible to make a swarmy list without any MCs (which don't make up 80% of the codex, but 20%...). It's like saying you HAVE to take tanks in order to play Space Marines. But you don't have to. You can have fine SM forces without any tanks.

catbarf
25-01-2008, 00:51
His comment about 80% of the codex was because he somehow thought that you can use ANY unit to screen a MC.

'Look at me! I'm the best tactician there ever was, despite having no real idea of how the army works or even the rules themselves! Here's my army list, despite having no idea of how this works. I'm going to ignore you now.'

Stella, Tyranids will have an even harder time dealing with vehicles now. If you actually read what was posted, you'd find reasoning for things that go far beyond Genestealers.

By the way, your list will be eaten alive by anyone with a Heavy Bolter and half a brain. FYI.

I'm sick and tired of GW doing this overreaction. Balance will never happen, because even if new variables were never added into the mix we'd still have the same issue of things seesawing back and forth for no real purpose.

And yeah, it's a shame that the horde army is now completely impossible to use.

Stella Cadente
25-01-2008, 01:31
So the whole enemy arme concentrages fire on the Flyrant, then has enough time take out two slow Carnifexes (or do you intend to shoot AND march at the same time?) and then nothing will be able to kill the Land Raider.

Also you just see the reason, why it is now impossible to make a swarmy list without any MCs (which don't make up 80% of the codex, but 20%...). It's like saying you HAVE to take tanks in order to play Space Marines. But you don't have to. You can have fine SM forces without any tanks.
do tyranid players have no idea what terrain is?, this might be a main problem for your armies you know, these things called walls and forests and buildings, I'm sure you've heard of them, but by the sound of it never heard of them

His comment about 80% of the codex was because he somehow thought that you can use ANY unit to screen a MC.
a what?, speak english not letter


'Look at me! I'm the best tactician there ever was, despite having no real idea of how the army works or even the rules themselves! Here's my army list, despite having no idea of how this works. I'm going to ignore you now.'
umm yeah *slowly walks away from the loon*


Stella, Tyranids will have an even harder time dealing with vehicles now. If you actually read what was posted, you'd find reasoning for things that go far beyond Genestealers.
no they don't, I've had tanks killed by things OTHER THAN genestealers, if they can do it now they will STILL be able to do it, it just means YOU have to work harder, oh boo frikkin hoo


By the way, your list will be eaten alive by anyone with a Heavy Bolter and half a brain. FYI.
thats a risk ALL infantry armies take, so your point is null and void


And yeah, it's a shame that the horde army is now completely impossible to use.
no its not

Stingray_tm
25-01-2008, 01:53
do tyranid players have no idea what terrain is?, this might be a main problem for your armies you know, these things called walls and forests and buildings, I'm sure you've heard of them, but by the sound of it never heard of them


So that's all you can come up with. Either it's "just play better, you are a bad tactician, even though i have no idea, what i am talking about or"
or
"Well terrain will prove my argument. I don't know how or why, but just throwing in the word 'terrain' well me make look like i know what i am doing. It might not make sense in combination with my argument, but i can say 'terrain'. With the magic of 'terrain' suddenly everything i described can and will happen, while my opponents card houses collapse. For no apparent reason than 'use terrain'. I don't need to explain how and why terrain would affect the situation described before, but terrain is magical and so it will miracoulosly balance everything out."

Great...

Stingray_tm
25-01-2008, 01:56
thats a risk ALL infantry armies take, so your point is null and void


Well, i don't see all infantry Space Marines having that problem...

catbarf
25-01-2008, 01:57
a what?, speak english not letter

You don't even know a basic acronym, yet you're going to try and tell me how the game works?


no they don't, I've had tanks killed by things OTHER THAN genestealers, if they can do it now they will STILL be able to do it, it just means YOU have to work harder, oh boo frikkin hoo

Like what?

Zoanthropes- Overpriced, short ranged, unreliable, inaccurate
Ranged Fex- Glancing only, overpriced for ranged AT
Melee Fex- Gets shot up, takes too long to get into melee, expensive
Genestealers- Getting nerfed
Flyrant- Vulnerable, expensive

If you regularly lose tanks to Tyranids, you're an atrocious general.


thats a risk ALL infantry armies take, so your point is null and void

No, not at all. Deathwing has absolutely no problem facing Heavy Bolters. A Nid army with enough numbers doesn't either. Your point is null and void.


no its not

Of the list above, a horde army would only have Genestealers and Zoanthropes. Stealers aren't very good against tanks and are getting worse, and Zoanthropes are pathetic anti-tank.

So please, actually give some evidence for your ludicrous claims beyond 'I said so'. Your posts give the strong impression of a pouting child complaining because things don't go his way. Play the game, play AS Tyranids, learn their weaknesses, become a good general. Don't complain that the army is broken because YOU can't figure out how to win.

Stingray_tm
25-01-2008, 01:58
Horde armys work now. There is no reason for changing the game so they don't work anymore. Period.

Stella Cadente
25-01-2008, 02:16
You don't even know a basic acronym, yet you're going to try and tell me how the game works?
thats because I speak English, which uses WORDS, not letters


Like what?

Zoanthropes- Overpriced, short ranged, unreliable, inaccurate
Ranged Fex- Glancing only, overpriced for ranged AT
Melee Fex- Gets shot up, takes too long to get into melee, expensive
Genestealers- Getting nerfed
Flyrant- Vulnerable, expensive

If you regularly lose tanks to Tyranids, you're an atrocious general.
*sigh* whats the point, your set in this idiotic idea that all these units are no good, so just whats the point carrying on, heck why do tyranids if most of the codex is crap for YOU


Of the list above, a horde army would only have Genestealers and Zoanthropes. Stealers aren't very good against tanks and are getting worse, and Zoanthropes are pathetic anti-tank.
Pathetic anti tank? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, I'll believe you when its true

Don't complain that the army is broken because YOU can't figure out how to win.
thats what I was gonna say to you, thank you for saving my time

catbarf
25-01-2008, 02:44
thats because I speak English, which uses WORDS, not letters

Somebody tell me this is a joke. Please tell me he did NOT just say that English doesn't use letters.


*sigh* whats the point, your set in this idiotic idea that all these units are no good, so just whats the point carrying on, heck why do tyranids if most of the codex is crap for YOU

Well, I'd use some very reliable math to prove you wrong, but you've already demonstrated that you hate math as well as anything requiring an IQ over 50 so I don't know what to say except: Look at the stats, then try to tell me that Tyranid anti-tank is better than SM anti-tank.


Pathetic anti tank? riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, I'll believe you when its true

Please, enlighten me as to how a Zoanthrope is better than a Marine with a lascannon, despite being more expensive, shorter ranged, less reliable, and less accurate. I'd love to hear your reasoning.


thats what I was gonna say to you, thank you for saving my time

Again, please point out what choices the Tyranids have for anti-tank. Please base these off of real experience (You've played as Tyranids and aren't just talking out of your rear, right?), and please use examples that are backed by probability so your success is not luck of the dice.

Stella Cadente
25-01-2008, 02:45
I would answer the questions, BUT its a waste of my time

catbarf
25-01-2008, 02:48
I would answer the questions, BUT its a waste of my time

So you come in, tell me I'm wrong, provide no evidence, and then when I provide reasoning for my stance you just say it's a waste of your time and leave? Are you a troll? Don't say something unless you're willing to back it up. Don't get in an argument if you can't handle being told you're wrong.

Stella Cadente
25-01-2008, 02:51
So you come in, tell me I'm wrong, provide no evidence, and then when I provide reasoning for my stance you just say it's a waste of your time and leave? Are you a troll? Don't say something unless you're willing to back it up. Don't get in an argument if you can't handle being told you're wrong.
theres plenty of evidence, it in your codex and main rulebook, its up to you to use them effectively, if you can't then read more and think more

Draconian77
25-01-2008, 02:54
I play Tyranids and I don't use Genestealers or Ravenors because I think they are overpriced for what they can realistically accomplish. With this new rending nerf I think many more Nid armies will become like mine, 5+ Mc and 60+ Shooty Gaunts.

In all the years I have been gaming none of my group has ever said that Stealers are overpowered. A ten man unit with 4+ save costs 200pts.

10 Marines, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun, Veteran Sergeant, Powerfists = 200ish pts I believe. There can really only be 1 victor there.

Rending was good against tanks but Tyranids CC armies(arguably the most fluffy Nid lists) needed it for anti-tank.

The problem with rending is when things other than Nids started to get it included in the codicies.

catbarf
25-01-2008, 02:54
theres plenty of evidence, it in your codex and main rulebook, its up to you to use them effectively, if you can't then read more and think more

There is absolutely nothing at all in any book that is refuting my statements. Or do you suggest that there's something in there that every single poster in this thread has overlooked? Are you really telling me that Zoanthropes are better than Lascannons, that Venom Cannons kill Land Raiders? Give me some reasoning, or you're just running around the issue.

Stella Cadente
25-01-2008, 03:17
right lets see what can kill tanks and how

Carnifex with Venom cannon and talons
Yes it can't Kill tanks, BUT it can glance and that means you can stop them shooting/moving/or blow the guns off entirely off any tanks up to armour 13, thats pretty much every tank around except 3 (Land raider/Monolith/Leman russ+variants)
with a simple couple of upgrades you can improve the str to 8, now thretening every tank available with some kind of damage, and a 2+ save, your now practically immune to anything with less than AP2, improving your ability to survive, YES the enemy will have lascannons, but the way you make it sound its like your opponents have dozens of them.
Then of course theres close combat which IS EASY to get to by advancing THROUGH cover, not standing behind it which for some reason you keep thinking I'm saying, and in close combat you WILL destroy anything with a str of 10 and 2d6 penetration.
Actually why not try twin Deathspitters?, good range, and can penetrate tanks, and the twin linked makes it SLIGHTLY more accurate

Zoanthorpes, why on earth do you keep comparing them to a marine with Lascannon??, YOUR NOT A MARINE, you can't have everything other armies get, you get a Thorpe, use it for christ sake, your save will keep you very safe from most weapons, and cover will help even more.
With Warp Blast you have a VERY effective and highly accurat Power, its a psychic power for crying out loud, how on earth are you saying its inaccurate when you have an LD of 10???????, YES it can be nullified because of that, but not every army has a psychic hood, and even less have 2 or 3 (depending on the number you take), and 18" is NOT short, your average attack distance in 40k is 24", closing that small gap of 6" is quite an easy feat to accomplish
and then of course is its huge power of fricking 10, that WILL hurt tanks, and even the str5 blast one is nice, especially with 5th editions new blast rules always hitting, no partial rolls

Biovores, with Bio Acid, 2d6 pen +3, thats a possible 15, not reliabe I'll grant you that, but against low armoured vehicles, still a possibility

Ravenors, str4 with Rending claws, again not hugely reliable, with there low str, BUT they can outmanouver and speed up to tanks and easily catch there rear armour without much hassle until its dead and there in the open

Genestealers are STILL effective against light vehicles, and rear armour on others, so even they can still kill tanks

Lictors, good str and again rending, so actually actually good against medium and light tanks

Warriors with Deathspitters and Rending claws, good against light tanks
with Toxin sacs they become better againt light tanks and rear armour, with wings even better still

Broodlord, again good against light to medium

Tyrant guard, light tanks

Hive tyrant with 2xTalon and wings, and heck warp blast, god against EVERYTHING

and then theres every ranged weapon of str4 that can effect every land speeder and light transport

Marius Xerxes
25-01-2008, 03:58
Lets not forget that Glance hits can eventually kill a tank. Blow all the guns off and immobilize it and viola.. tank gone.

With no guns left, getting that result means its immobilized, and vice versa.. its not that hard to explode with just a few more shots.

And really, except a LR or Monolith, most stuff isn't any higher then AV 12 on the side, with a majority being only 11. If your telling me you cant defeat AV 11 in HtH with the same rending units as before, then I really cant help you.

Stella Cadente
25-01-2008, 04:00
Lets not forget that Glance hits can eventually kill a tank. Blow all the guns off and immobilize it and viola.. tank gone.

With no guns left, getting that result means its immobilized, and vice versa.. its not that hard to explode with just a few more shots.

And really, except a LR or Monolith, most stuff isn't any higher then AV 12 on the side, with a majority being only 11. If your telling me you cant defeat AV 11 in HtH with the same rending units as before, then I really cant help you.
precisely, so there really should be no problems

Firaxin
25-01-2008, 04:56
Lets not forget that Glance hits can eventually kill a tank. Blow all the guns off and immobilize it and viola.. tank gone.

With no guns left, getting that result means its immobilized, and vice versa.. its not that hard to explode with just a few more shots.

And really, except a LR or Monolith, most stuff isn't any higher then AV 12 on the side, with a majority being only 11. If your telling me you cant defeat AV 11 in HtH with the same rending units as before, then I really cant help you.
Lemans, Devilfish, etc, all have AV12 side armor. Space Marines are really the only ones that have AV11 sides. It tends to be either 12 or 10 for everyone else, and the 10s are typically only on skimmers, which can outrun genestealers, etc, and you need a six to hit even if I catch it.

I see that you expect Nids ought to take 3 or 4 turns killing each tank, when other armies can do it in 1.
My leman russes have a heavy stubber, 3 heavy bolters, and a battlecannon. Are you telling me Nid players can play with just glancing, when you need a minimum of 6 glances to kill that tank (and it will be more, because people roll 1s, 2s, and 3s...)?

The only things I can see that would be able to penetrate even AV13 are

Spore mines, which have a 2/3 chance of scattering 2d6" away, and then needs a 6-6 or a 6-5.
A 'strangler on a fex. Again, 2/3 of scattering, it only needs to move 3 or 4 inches to have its strength reduced to 4. It then needs a 6 to penetrate the 13, and it can't penetrate the 14.
Fexes and Tyrants in CC, provided they catch the vehicle.
Warpblast, which requires close proximity, a passed psychic check, and then a to hit roll of BS3. It still only penetrates AV13 half the time even if it manages to hit, and it only penetrates AV14 a third of the time.
Lictors, though I laugh at their small number of attacks, chances of scattering too far away, and tendency to die horribly when shot at out of cover or when countercharged.
The broodlord, which requires toxin sacs to deal with AV14 and which is slower than normal genestealers.

Where is AV13+ now? The fronts of preds, hammerheads, sides of demolishers, fronts of all russes, monoliths, land raiders, the fronts of battlewagons, etc

Chaos, Tau, Necron, Guard, SM, Ork, WH, DH, etc will have nigh-invincible options when facing nids.

I was looking at someone's armylist here on warseer just a while ago. They had an upcoming game against nids. They wanted to max out on tanks, because they though nids were bad against armored targets as it is!

Captain Micha
25-01-2008, 05:00
only on skimmers? I do seem to recall quite a few tracked vehicles with 10s. (looking at you crapmera and ork vehicles)

let alone that bs rule that when you assault a tank it will be assaulting it's rear automatically. something that all these nid players seem to conveniently forget.

Do you honestly think tanks should be popped in 2 turns? I don't. I think that's stupid. there is not a single squad in the game that can die in one shot, nor are there that die in two rounds or less.

azimaith
25-01-2008, 05:04
We didn't forget the rule abuot hitting the rear of the tanks with no WS becuase its not in the 5th ed rules pack at all.