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View Full Version : Do you think there will be changes to the Dark Eldar fluff with the new codex?



Baltar
17-01-2008, 00:05
And I don't really mean like "WHat are they up to?" stuff that everyone gets with a new codex, but will GW change more of their defining aspects? Could we get a reboot of their story?

Grand Warlord
17-01-2008, 00:39
it's always possible, but I hope they dont change it too much

chivalrous
17-01-2008, 00:42
Considering there isn't a lot of background material at the moment we could see anything from an establishment of new material and their progression from the 'Fall' to the 'present' or we could see everything retconned to the point where it transpires that Commorragh is in fact a Crone world and Mandrakes are in fact Eldar whose bodies are in flux between the physical universe and the warp.
Who knows?
I'm a fairly hardcore Dark Eldar player myself but if I'm honest, they don't have enough established background material for me to get upset if they changed chunks of it.

Lastie
17-01-2008, 00:48
As long as they're not altered to Chaos Eldar, I believe I'll probably enjoy whatever GW comes up with.

Bloodknight
17-01-2008, 00:56
Agreed. Leave Chaos out (except the "feeding Slaanesh so he does not consume them" part) and do whatever else you want, GW guys.

I hope they will retain the Hellraiser-esque feel, though.

ShaiAhlude
03-03-2008, 00:46
Also agree, NO Chaos Eldar

It seems to be pretty wide open, especially since GW has been known to contradict itself in fluff ;)

There is a HUGE amount of work that need to be done on DE; rules, army entries, miniatures, wargear, you name it. Right now, every DE list is roughly the same, since so few entries actually work well.

cailus
03-03-2008, 00:59
Given the way Chaos has been treated I'd say you guys are going to be Spikey Eldar.

Basically you will be evil and have spikes. Not so much different from now except the whole rationale as to why you like to torture things and consume souls will be wiped out in favour of some lame line ala: "Dark Eldar are cruel and twisted parodies of their Craftworld cousins."

Weren't there rumours about Dark Eldar Warlocks and Wraithlords too a while back?

Greyknight40k
03-03-2008, 14:52
When is the new codex coming out, I am going to be starting a dark eldar army in the next couple of weeks and would like to know how long I have before I start playing with it as I don't really want to be buying loads of stuff only to be changing the majority of the units when the new codex does come out.

Cheers all ( don't mean to sound stupid but haven't heard that a new codex is coming out )..

sliganian
03-03-2008, 16:03
I would think Dark Eldar players should expect massive changes. As others have said, the DE currently have next to nothing for detailed background. Even the Tau have a deeper backstory than the DE. And I think this will be the hardest thing for the Studio to pull-off: making the DE story interesting. The one elephant in the room that they MUST address is this: How did the DE survive the Fall?

different13
03-03-2008, 16:35
When is the new codex coming out, I am going to be starting a dark eldar army in the next couple of weeks and would like to know how long I have before I start playing with it as I don't really want to be buying loads of stuff only to be changing the majority of the units when the new codex does come out.

Cheers all ( don't mean to sound stupid but haven't heard that a new codex is coming out )..

Don't start a new army (of DE) until you have more info on the upcoming do-over. As you say, why risk having to change everything again?

Not to mention the fact that a new codex means new miniatures, a blessing for the Dark Eldar.

Mad King George
03-03-2008, 17:22
i think alot of there stuff will be nerfed, with 5th ed skimmers rumors they will be weak and myabe there combat troops downgraded

Pvt. Ratt
03-03-2008, 17:40
They take away Incubi and someone is gonna get the boom stick!


to be honest I really want the DE to updated mainly because everyone else has more or less been renewed or updated. Its not fair to only upgrade SM and CSM. Granted when it comes out i am quite curious to see how GW will contradict themselves this time with fluff.

intellectawe
03-03-2008, 17:41
i think alot of there stuff will be nerfed, with 5th ed skimmers rumors they will be weak and myabe there combat troops downgraded

Um...

With 5th ed skimmer rules Dark Eldar skimmers will be stronger in most aspects.

What will be nerfed?

And how would our combat troops be downgraded?

LordFulgrim
03-03-2008, 17:41
I hope the DE will still be one of those armies where you (fluff-wise) still need to fill in the missing parts yourself. I would hate it if their background would suddenly be all spelled out for us. I like them mysterious.

spaint2k
03-03-2008, 18:05
I hope the DE will still be one of those armies where you (fluff-wise) still need to fill in the missing parts yourself.

You mean, as in "all of it".


I would hate it if their background would suddenly be all spelled out for us.

And I would hate it if most English speakers were suddenly able to use the subjunctive correctly. /petpeeve

Steve

Visionary
03-03-2008, 18:07
The only problem I see is that when they are updated people will be expecting it to be 'the most pimping army what ever done graced my eyes' but it may not be :eek: although there will be some improvement unless we get an army of CSM possessed from meduca...

Supremearchmarshal
03-03-2008, 18:22
Given the way Chaos has been treated I'd say you guys are going to be Spikey Eldar.

Basically you will be evil and have spikes. Not so much different from now except the whole rationale as to why you like to torture things and consume souls will be wiped out in favour of some lame line ala: "Dark Eldar are cruel and twisted parodies of their Craftworld cousins."

Weren't there rumours about Dark Eldar Warlocks and Wraithlords too a while back?

Someone's still bitter about the CSM codex I see...

wickedvoodoo
03-03-2008, 18:28
I am hoping the advances in modelling technology that GW has had since the last DE codex means we will get an awesome plastic talos. And it should have better rules.

Fluff wise i am really hoping they dont do chaos eldar, that is such an easy way out.

LordFulgrim
03-03-2008, 18:31
And I would hate it if most English speakers were suddenly able to use the subjunctive correctly. /petpeeve

Hint: English isn't my first language.;) But yes I see my mistake now and stand corrected.

spaint2k
03-03-2008, 19:59
Hint: English isn't my first language.;) But yes I see my mistake now and stand corrected.

A poor assumption on my part, since I see so many native speakers make the same mistake. Please take it as a compliment ;)

Steve

Templar Ben
03-03-2008, 20:46
I think they will go back to the Eldar Pirate. I would actually prefer them as Chaos Eldar.

the1stpip
03-03-2008, 22:38
What will weaken DE armies is being to shoot through terrain. I use terrain to hide my approach, and that will hurt.

I think the current fluff is good, if only there was more of it. A lot of it makes sense.

sabre4190
03-03-2008, 22:38
I think they will base alot of it off the new Eldar book. That really expanded the background of the race to include specific details. Apparently, decadence didnt mean they were lazy. It meant they were crazy. Really crazy. I would also expect to see alot of the information from the apocalypse book pop up, in terms of how they fight and function as a society.

The SkaerKrow
04-03-2008, 01:33
I really don't anticipate changes, just an expansion upon what we already know. The Dark Eldar are never going to have the sort of backstory enjoyed by Necrons, Marines or Eldar, because the Dark Eldar keep to themselves most of the time. Their MO is pretty straightforward: Slaanesh is going to eat us, let's give her other people to eat instead. It works, and it doesn't really need changed. There's room for some expansion in the particulars, but overall I don't think we're going to see GW bend over backwards to re-imagine what is and always will be one of the game's fringe armies.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-03-2008, 02:26
As long as they're not altered to Chaos Eldar, I believe I'll probably enjoy whatever GW comes up with.

Agreed.


Someone's still bitter about the CSM codex I see...

Indeed.


What will weaken DE armies is being to shoot through terrain. I use terrain to hide my approach, and that will hurt.

Yeah, it's gonna hurt my army too. Smoke launchers only do so much...


I think the current fluff is good, if only there was more of it. A lot of it makes sense.

True. They just need a Codex that's a little thicker than the third ed. pamphlets.

ShaiAhlude
04-03-2008, 02:40
When is the new codex coming out, I am going to be starting a dark eldar army in the next couple of weeks and would like to know how long I have before I start playing with it as I don't really want to be buying loads of stuff only to be changing the majority of the units when the new codex does come out.

Tenatively, 2009. AFTER 5th edition.

Name another codex that has'nt had a new edition in 4th edition, and only 1 update since the beginning of 3rd edition. (wipes bitterness from goatee)

Occulto
04-03-2008, 02:59
Tenatively, 2009. AFTER 5th edition.

Name another codex that has'nt had a new edition in 4th edition, and only 1 update since the beginning of 3rd edition. (wipes bitterness from goatee)

Space Wolves? :p

ShaiAhlude
04-03-2008, 03:08
Name another codex that has'nt had a new edition in 4th edition, and only 1 update since the beginning of 3rd edition. (wipes bitterness from goatee)

Space Wolves?

3 guesses as to my 2nd big army of 40k. You only need one.......:rolleyes:

Occulto
04-03-2008, 03:36
3 guesses as to my 2nd big army of 40k. You only need one.......:rolleyes:

Um... let me think. :angel:

Please tell me you've got a squat army too. :p

ShaiAhlude
04-03-2008, 03:42
Please tell me you've got a squat army too.

No, but almost did. The Mole Mortar was awesome.

Souleater
04-03-2008, 12:15
Space Wolves? :p

But they did get 13th Co variant list and a few new figures. Not much, I know.

I'm against them being turned to Chaos Eldar, too. It just seems too easy a choice. I also remember the days when every army got Chaos Variants. It just got annoying in the end.

They obviously have a lot of room to expand on the DE. I think it is good that they aren't out to enslave the galaxy/wipe out life as we know it/other doomsday cliches.

And being pirates means they can still interfere with stuff across the galaxy. I would like to see a little more about the way Harlies get DE and CWE to fight together against Chaos (specifically SWT). I think it is really cool that they have Her as a shared enemy and despite their bitter hatred for each other they will team up to kick Her minion's ass.

I also like that DE aren't to CWE what DE are to HE i.e. too much of a carbon copy. I know there are similarities but I think the differences they have now are good.

Edit: We can also look at stuff like the Mandrakes (whom Soulstorm indicates are 'daemonically tainted'. Will that become offical fluff, I wonder?), the Incubi and just that they get up to.

ShaiAhlude
04-03-2008, 12:36
Also, if you want to get real technical, every time the SM codex changed, so did the entries for SW. SW can take 1 "basic" scout squad, land speeder squadrons, LR & LRC.

I've also noted how little complaining there is about the SW codex. It was done RIGHT.

Hoping the new DE codex is done right too...

Thanatos_elNyx
04-03-2008, 17:21
The one elephant in the room that they MUST address is this: How did the DE survive the Fall?

I thought the explanation wasn't too bad, that they were all children, so they had no direct ties to the hedonistic acts that created Slaanesh and therefore weren't part of the soul ripping birth.

Personnally I would prefer Pirate Eldar to Chaos Eldar, but keep the seemingly unnecessarily evil part.

intellectawe
04-03-2008, 18:15
The one elephant in the room that they MUST address is this: How did the DE survive the Fall?

Um...

This was 'addressed' back in 1998 when the codex came out?

All Eldar became Dark Eldar before/during the fall. After the fall, the Eldar which 'repented' their ways are now known as Eldar, while the Eldar that decided to NOT change their ways, are the current Dark Eldar.

This is why Dark Eldar call themselves the True Kin, as they were the original 'version' of the Eldar during the Fall, and have stayed true to their ways ever since then.

Basically, Eldar time line is this ( I dont know anything about exodites, so please don't hurt me )

1) Eldar
2) Eldar became bastards ( Dark Eldar )
3) The Fall happened ( Dark Eldar )
4) Dark Eldar split into a. Craft World Eldar b. Dark Eldar c. Exodites

I put the Exodites in there, but I know NOTHING of their background. So please forgive my ignorance if I got that wrong with the Exodites.

Of course this is going from GW 'canon' as of 1998ish... I am not too familiar with Eldar history pre-Dark Eldar codex, or heck, even in the new current Eldar Codex. History may have changed and I would not have a clue.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-03-2008, 20:28
That sounds like a fairly accurate timeline. IIRC the Exodites were Eldar who foresaw the fall and ran off to Maiden Worlds far away from the epicenter. By the time the Craftworld Eldar started running away, though, it was too late for most of them.

nooobie 69
05-03-2008, 00:00
well what ive heard about the drak eldar is that they are being completely redone with new models and for thier army to work differently (im not sure how different though)

and i think it is some time in 2009 we should see them probly this time next year

IncubiLord
05-03-2008, 01:06
If GW does it right, they don't have to change anything about the DE fluff.

Right now, we have a rough outline of who the DE are with a few side-notes. Fleshing that out could take things in a number of directions without hurting the existing background.

Of course, I'm not counting the drivel from BL as background for the DE. By all means, contradict that.

Mandrakes are in fact Eldar whose bodies are in flux between the physical universe and the warp.
That wouldn't be much of a retcon...

I would think Dark Eldar players should expect massive changes.
When there's so little to change?
It's not like the existing DE fluff paints them into a corner as far as creativity goes.

Name another codex that has'nt had a new edition in 4th edition, and only 1 update since the beginning of 3rd edition. (wipes bitterness from goatee)
Witch Hunters, Daemonhunters, and Necrons?
We can claim the longest period of neglect, but we're not alone...

this is going from GW 'canon' as of 1998ish...

That sounds like a fairly accurate timeline. IIRC the Exodites were Eldar who foresaw the fall and ran off to Maiden Worlds far away from the epicenter. By the time the Craftworld Eldar started running away, though, it was too late for most of them.
I hate to go against you guys when you're teaching the uneducated, but the current CWE codex says:

1) Pre-Fall Eldar - live for the parties.
2) Scary visions plague the Eldar - the Exodites run away.
3) Scary visions get worse - the Craftworlders begin running.
4) The Fall - craftworlds that hadn't run far enough die alongside Core Worlds.
5) DE come to CWE attention.

From the Torturer's Tale, you add to 4 with:
Youths on the Core Worlds are not consumed by the Great Enemy and flee into the Webway - become DE.

And I would hate it if most English speakers were suddenly able to use the subjunctive correctly.
A grammar nazi using improper grammar? Classic. :p

intellectawe
05-03-2008, 01:30
1) Eldar
2) Eldar became bastards ( Dark Eldar )
3) The Fall happened ( Dark Eldar )
4) Dark Eldar split into a. Craft World Eldar b. Dark Eldar c. Exodites



1) Pre-Fall Eldar - live for the parties.
2) Scary visions plague the Eldar - the Exodites run away.
3) Scary visions get worse - the Craftworlders begin running.
4) The Fall - craftworlds that hadn't run far enough die alongside Core Worlds.
5) DE come to CWE attention.


What I said is the same thing you did. You probably didn't see it though.

Your '1' is my '2' ... The difference is that I simply consider all Eldar at your '1' to just be Dark Eldar in just about all aspects.

Your 2,3,4 and 5 all fall under my '3'. Which is fine that you got into more detail.

The point is, Eldar were once just Eldar. Then they became a bunch of ripe old bastards, I call them simply Dark Eldar. The Eldar that didn't want to follow the rest of their evil bastard kin all ran their asses off.

I didn't miseducate anyone :)

It simply comes down to my idea of what is considered a Dark Eldar. To me, there is no difference between the Eldar that started the Fall and the Dark Eldar we have today, hence why I just call the pre-fall Eldar simply, Dark Eldar.

At least we aren't calling Dark Eldar Chaos Eldar... That makes me cringe :confused:

....

Anyway... I have a feeling most of the posters on this thread don't even play Dark Eldar and are just getting their +1's on :)

Souleater
05-03-2008, 13:05
Problem with Intellectawe’s timeline is that it seems to make Dark Eldar = Chaos Eldar.

I much prefer Incubi’s timeline. Add in 4b) that some of those left on the Core Worlds come to their senses (although they are bastards as Intellectawe says) and flee by the only route left – the Webway.

This partly protects them from Her birth. Instead of having their souls sucked straight out they are affected by the Thirst and become the cool, hip vampire bastards we know today.

I also don’t see what needs changing given we know so little. Evil Space Elf Vampire S&M Pirates is certainly a more complex archetype than ‘Warrior Monks’ or ‘Space Orcs’.

And we have a lot of room to build on the units we already have.

FWIW: Dark Eldar are my second (and only painted!) 40k army.

spaint2k
05-03-2008, 13:28
I hate to go against you guys when you're teaching the uneducated, but the current CWE codex says:

1) Pre-Fall Eldar - live for the parties.
2) Scary visions plague the Eldar - the Exodites run away.
3) Scary visions get worse - the Craftworlders begin running.
4) The Fall - craftworlds that hadn't run far enough die alongside Core Worlds.
5) DE come to CWE attention.

From the Torturer's Tale, you add to 4 with:
Youths on the Core Worlds are not consumed by the Great Enemy and flee into the Webway - become DE.


What is the Torturer's Tale anyway? A book from Black Library? I can't find it on the website.



A grammar nazi using improper grammar? Classic. :p

While it *is* an internet rule that anyone correcting anyone else's grammar or spelling must commit a mistake of at least one type himself, I don't actually believe the sentence you chose to quote exhibits either. I've lived overseas for half my life and I am well aware that my English is deteriorating on a nearly daily basis, but I can spot errors in other people's writing a mile off (which is why I wish to God Black Industries had hired a decent proof-reader before rushing off and printing Dark Heresy).

Of course, if I'm wrong, please enlighten me - I find such things terribly embarrassing.

Steve

gorgon
05-03-2008, 13:42
Purely from a marketing standpoint, I think GW dropped the ball by not making them Chaos Eldar in the first place. Before the release, that possibility had more people excited than the evil pirate concept.

But since they are established as being not-quite-Chaos Eldar, I think they should stay as is. There's no sense messing with 10 years of (incredibly thin but existing) fluff and players' army backgrounds, etc.

Supremearchmarshal
05-03-2008, 13:53
What is the Torturer's Tale anyway? A book from Black Library? I can't find it on the website.

You should look more carefully then :p

Here you go:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkeldar/torturer/

Doppleskanger
05-03-2008, 14:22
Er I'm probably way off (i may be thinking off a well outdated version) but I thought that during the fall some eldar were either cut off in the webway or a long way off in the galaxy, and when they got back found out the fall was underway and didn't really know what was going on. So they ran back into the webway and hid. And because they didn't have spirit stones had to start doing the sacrifice thing. What's nice about this version is that the DE weren't corrupted during the fall, and weren't actually evil when they ran off, but just came up with a solution to stop their souls from being eaten.
Anyway that's obviously not the version you guys are on about so...

Expanding the fluff won't be a problem anyway, and they've never done major changes to the core story of a race that I can thick of. They will just be lots more detail in the next codex (and hopefully less dumb spiky armour)

spaint2k
05-03-2008, 15:04
You should look more carefully then :p

Here you go:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkeldar/torturer/

In all fairness, I meant the Black Library website.

Thanks for the link!

Steve

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-03-2008, 20:48
Anyway... I have a feeling most of the posters on this thread don't even play Dark Eldar and are just getting their +1's on :)

+1s? Sure, I don't play DE, but I do like babbling about fluff. :p


Problem with Intellectawe’s timeline is that it seems to make Dark Eldar = Chaos Eldar.

I don't get that impression, looking over his post.

intellectawe
05-03-2008, 22:37
Problem with Intellectawe’s timeline is that it seems to make Dark Eldar = Chaos Eldar.

Well, that is your interpretation of my time line, even though I never even mention Eldar worshiping chaos in any form or fashion, nor becoming Chaos Eldar in any form or fashion.

I am sorry if my timeline gave you that impression.


... I don't play DE, but I do like babbling about fluff. :p

And I rather enjoy reading your posts very much!

Souleater
06-03-2008, 10:20
Well, they do say I can be a bit paranoid.

Kraull the Rampager
06-03-2008, 11:20
From a purely fluff related standpoint, it appears that with the release of each codex/army book, there has been a corresponding release (or rerelease) of a Black Library book detailing that given race/ army.

Granted, they did not put out an Ork book, but they did put out a new HE book, they are rereleasing the VC series, and so on.

So, the possibility exists that there will be a Dark Eldar novel sometime in 2009.

Templar Ben
06-03-2008, 12:15
Um...

This was 'addressed' back in 1998 when the codex came out?

All Eldar became Dark Eldar before/during the fall. After the fall, the Eldar which 'repented' their ways are now known as Eldar, while the Eldar that decided to NOT change their ways, are the current Dark Eldar.

This is why Dark Eldar call themselves the True Kin, as they were the original 'version' of the Eldar during the Fall, and have stayed true to their ways ever since then.

Basically, Eldar time line is this ( I dont know anything about exodites, so please don't hurt me )

1) Eldar
2) Eldar became bastards ( Dark Eldar )
3) The Fall happened ( Dark Eldar )
4) Dark Eldar split into a. Craft World Eldar b. Dark Eldar c. Exodites

I put the Exodites in there, but I know NOTHING of their background. So please forgive my ignorance if I got that wrong with the Exodites.

Of course this is going from GW 'canon' as of 1998ish... I am not too familiar with Eldar history pre-Dark Eldar codex, or heck, even in the new current Eldar Codex. History may have changed and I would not have a clue.


If GW does it right, they don't have to change anything about the DE fluff.

Right now, we have a rough outline of who the DE are with a few side-notes. Fleshing that out could take things in a number of directions without hurting the existing background.

Of course, I'm not counting the drivel from BL as background for the DE. By all means, contradict that.

That wouldn't be much of a retcon...

When there's so little to change?
It's not like the existing DE fluff paints them into a corner as far as creativity goes.

Witch Hunters, Daemonhunters, and Necrons?
We can claim the longest period of neglect, but we're not alone...


I hate to go against you guys when you're teaching the uneducated, but the current CWE codex says:

1) Pre-Fall Eldar - live for the parties.
2) Scary visions plague the Eldar - the Exodites run away.
3) Scary visions get worse - the Craftworlders begin running.
4) The Fall - craftworlds that hadn't run far enough die alongside Core Worlds.
5) DE come to CWE attention.

From the Torturer's Tale, you add to 4 with:
Youths on the Core Worlds are not consumed by the Great Enemy and flee into the Webway - become DE.

A grammar nazi using improper grammar? Classic. :p

Perhaps you guys can explain to us dolts how Dark Eldar are so different then Chaos Eldar. They performed the actions that led directly to the creation of a Chaos God. They continue to perform those actions which gives that god strength. They perform the actions that avowed worshipers perform.

I know they are "scared" of their god and the eternal damnation but well I live in the SouthEast United States. Most Christians I know are the same way.

Thanks in advance.

intellectawe
06-03-2008, 12:24
Perhaps you guys can explain to us dolts how Dark Eldar are so different then Chaos Eldar.

Dark Eldar do not worship Chaos. It isn't more difficult than that.


They performed the actions that led directly to the creation of a Chaos God.

Unintentionally. They weren't worshiping Khorne, or Tzeentch, or Nurgle. They got too fat and lazy with their dominance over the Galaxy. They got SO lazy and evil, that a Chaos God was born.

So no, they didn't perform any action to create a Chaos God. It just happened.


They continue to perform those actions which gives that god strength. They perform the actions that avowed worshipers perform.

And so does every other race, even if they know it or not.


I know they are "scared" of their god and the eternal damnation but well I live in the SouthEast United States. Most Christians I know are the same way.

Slaneesh is NOT 'their' God. They do not worship Slaneesh in any form. Thats like saying Satan is your God because you fudged a die roll, or you stole some bread, or you even murdered someone.

People are afraid of eternal damnation in real life based on control. Lets not get into a discussion of religion, but, ALL Eldar are scared of damnation NOT because they worship or are scared of a God they do not know truly exists.

Eldar KNOW for a fact that Slaneesh exists, and is a growing, everyday threat. Slaneesh can physically corrupt and take Eldar's souls, literally.


Thanks in advance.

You are welcome in advance.

Konstantin
06-03-2008, 12:32
They'll probably change the DE from extreme BDSM folk to just slavers or some crap like that.

intellectawe
06-03-2008, 13:03
They'll probably change the DE from extreme BDSM folk to just slavers or some crap like that.

What makes you believe this? Just a gut feeling?

Souleater
06-03-2008, 13:05
Anybody else have the DoW Soulstorm yet?

I'm reading through the manual at lunch time and wondering just how much of it might become canon. And how much is 'simplified' for the non-40K PC Gamer.

For instance, we have one structure "Built in exultation of the Chaos God (She Who Thirsts)". Another speaks of the Haemonculi indulging in "sinister sorceries and the application of pain, misery and death..."

There certainly seems to be a heavy slant towards terror tactics and morale damage for our units. heh heh :D

Not sure how much of the Dark eldar 'introduction' I can type out here. Basically De are described as the thrill seekers and sense-addicts. Lots of Eldar fell to Chaos or fell to infighting between those loyal to the Seers and their corrupt bretheren. We were defeated (obviously this background is a web of lies) and cast out into Commorragh and cursed by She Who Thirsts.

Obviously doesnt' match up entirely with what we know now but does it match up with what is to come?

Edit: Oh, nice explanation of DE =/= Chaos Eldar from intellectawe.

intellectawe
06-03-2008, 13:14
I plan on buying the game when it comes out near my house.

But if what you are saying is true, it is not cannon. Thats like a video game manual for Fire Warrior saying Blood Angels worship Khorne, or that Dawn of War says Orks worship The Old Ones.

I know everyone has their own opinions about canon, but for me, the only canon I respect is canon from a codex or rule book. I don't respect novels and video games as canon.

Now, I agree with you.... Soul Storm MAY be an indication of Dark Eldar in the next 2 years. Dark Eldar may actually become worshipers of Slaneesh. Who knows.

oh... and my explination of DE not being Chaos Eldar is rather simple. I understand most people have never even seen a Dark Eldar army, let alone their Codex. Dark Eldar hate Slaneesh as much as the Imperium of man does.

Is the game out yet?

Souleater
06-03-2008, 13:23
It is out tommorrow here in Blighty. Not sure about anywhere else.

I agree that taking anything from a 'spin off' as canon can be very misleading. I'm just too giddy with excitement at actually getting something for DE after so long.

Sisters of Battle sound groovy, too.

Konstantin
06-03-2008, 13:42
What makes you believe this? Just a gut feeling?

Gut, and the way GW has been changing the fluff to more family freindly garbage.

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-03-2008, 21:21
And I rather enjoy reading your posts very much!

Thanks! :)


For instance, we have one structure "Built in exultation of the Chaos God (She Who Thirsts)".

This bit alone curses the game for me. But I'll get it and play it anyway.

Templar Ben
07-03-2008, 02:08
Dark Eldar do not worship Chaos. It isn't more difficult than that.


Unintentionally. They weren't worshiping Khorne, or Tzeentch, or Nurgle. They got too fat and lazy with their dominance over the Galaxy. They got SO lazy and evil, that a Chaos God was born.

So no, they didn't perform any action to create a Chaos God. It just happened.



And so does every other race, even if they know it or not.



Slaneesh is NOT 'their' God. They do not worship Slaneesh in any form. Thats like saying Satan is your God because you fudged a die roll, or you stole some bread, or you even murdered someone.

People are afraid of eternal damnation in real life based on control. Lets not get into a discussion of religion, but, ALL Eldar are scared of damnation NOT because they worship or are scared of a God they do not know truly exists.

Eldar KNOW for a fact that Slaneesh exists, and is a growing, everyday threat. Slaneesh can physically corrupt and take Eldar's souls, literally.



You are welcome in advance.

So they are not Chaos Eldar but they accidentally did that which created a god and have seen fit to continue to do those actions (which they know strengthen the god) and they offer other souls to that god but they don't worship the god. Got it.

Yeah that is world of difference.

intellectawe
07-03-2008, 02:59
So they are not Chaos Eldar but they accidentally did that which created a god and have seen fit to continue to do those actions (which they know strengthen the god) and they offer other souls to that god but they don't worship the god. Got it.

Actually no you don't.


Yeah that is world of difference.

If you bothered to understand what I wrote, then it would make a difference. But you are just being stubborn, which is fine.

havik110
07-03-2008, 14:06
They'll probably change the DE from extreme BDSM folk to just slavers or some crap like that.

you know if you look at the models the only one that makes me think Bondage are the hemunculi.

the wyches are gladiators and if you look at gladiators they didnt cover everything up because they either didnt have the armor or couldnt wear it and aviod being hit.

if you look at the art on the gw site none of them look like leather freaks.

the look they have is to make them look "Dark" and the art does a good job of it where the models do not. go to the gw site and look at the art, its actually quite good.

intellectawe
07-03-2008, 14:37
Well Havik, I don't know about you, but I have been playing DE since the Wych Cult came out. And I can tell you, that over the past 8ish years, I have always had to deal with players wh know next to nothing about DE, yet want to just voice their opinions. Its kind of sad all the incorrect assumptions people make, and yet they have probably never seen a DE army or read the DE codex before.

spaint2k
07-03-2008, 14:41
Well Havik, I don't know about you, but I have been playing DE since the Wych Cult came out. And I can tell you, that over the past 8ish years, I have always had to deal with players wh know next to nothing about DE, yet want to just voice their opinions. Its kind of sad all the incorrect assumptions people make, and yet they have probably never seen a DE army or read the DE codex before.

For once I find myself agreeing with Templar Ben in most of his posts in this thread, although I would like to thank you for posting your explanation of why the Dark Eldar are not Chaos Eldar. I did get it.

However, you can't blame people for knowing next to nothing about the Dark Eldar. I own the codex and have read it and I still know next to nothing about them. [EDIT: I've not yet read the Torturer's Tale mentioned above.]

Steve

intellectawe
07-03-2008, 15:03
I don't blame people for anything! What gets my goat is ( and this is true in RL also ) people come into an argument with a close minded view ( usually about politics and religion, as this thread proved ). No matter what you tell them, they don't want to listen. So I just look at the hot dogs they have crammed in their ears, throw up my hands, and walk away.

The SkaerKrow
08-03-2008, 17:24
So they are not Chaos Eldar but they accidentally did that which created a god and have seen fit to continue to do those actions (which they know strengthen the god) and they offer other souls to that god but they don't worship the god. Got it.

Yeah that is world of difference.Your inability to understand an explanation does not invalidate its accuracy. The Eldar created a society that allowed them to focus all of their efforts on aesthetic pursuits, which after millennia culminated in a drive to experience and savor every form of pleasure that the galaxy had to offer. As they became more jaded they required more debase acts to stimulate their sensation addiction. This pursuit of violent excess eventually grew to consume their consciousness to such a degree that it caused Slaanesh to manifest within the Warp, an event that immediately killed billions of Eldar and pushed their race to the verge of extinction. As Slaanesh was born of the Eldar she was ever a part of them, and would claim the souls of the survivors when they died. The Craftworld Eldar, who fled the Eldar empire prior to Slaanesh's birth, escaped this fate by binding their souls to Spirit Stones that would collect their soul when they died. The other Eldar (who are now called "Dark" Eldar) fled into the Webway to escape Slaanesh, but are still bound to her in death. To prolong their lives they consume the souls of other sentient creatures, sparing their own spirits from the depredations of Slaanesh at the cost of their victims. Meanwhile, they do their best to maintain their culture and traditions, the things that defined an empire that once stretched all across the stars.

The Dark Eldar do not worship Slaanesh (indeed, they fear and revile her). It would be far more accurate to say that Slaanesh mimics the Dark Eldar, existing as an exaggerated manifestation of the true society of the Eldar, which is only maintained by those Eldar kin in Commoragh. "Chaos Eldar" would indicate that they venerate Slaanesh, or honor her, or serve her, or even mention her name. They do none of this, and would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with their Craftworld kindred if they had an opportunity to somehow battle her legions and destroy her once and for all. That they must sacrifice souls to her speaks not of veneration, but of the truly dire conditions of their struggle for survival.

Imperialis_Dominatus
08-03-2008, 23:10
I think people might read Dark Eldar as Chaotic because Black Library's writers often portray them that way. I really had to read between the lines in Crimson Tears to make sure Ben Counter wasn't making all Dark Eldar out to be Slaanesh worshippers, and even then, his writing made it unclear.

Templar Ben
10-03-2008, 02:52
I think people might read Dark Eldar as Chaotic because Black Library's writers often portray them that way. I really had to read between the lines in Crimson Tears to make sure Ben Counter wasn't making all Dark Eldar out to be Slaanesh worshippers, and even then, his writing made it unclear.

I have seen it spelled out directly. I will have to find the titles for you.


Your inability to understand an explanation does not invalidate its accuracy. The Eldar created a society that allowed them to focus all of their efforts on aesthetic pursuits, which after millennia culminated in a drive to experience and savor every form of pleasure that the galaxy had to offer. As they became more jaded they required more debase acts to stimulate their sensation addiction. This pursuit of violent excess eventually grew to consume their consciousness to such a degree that it caused Slaanesh to manifest within the Warp, an event that immediately killed billions of Eldar and pushed their race to the verge of extinction. As Slaanesh was born of the Eldar she was ever a part of them, and would claim the souls of the survivors when they died. The Craftworld Eldar, who fled the Eldar empire prior to Slaanesh's birth, escaped this fate by binding their souls to Spirit Stones that would collect their soul when they died. The other Eldar (who are now called "Dark" Eldar) fled into the Webway to escape Slaanesh, but are still bound to her in death. To prolong their lives they consume the souls of other sentient creatures, sparing their own spirits from the depredations of Slaanesh at the cost of their victims. Meanwhile, they do their best to maintain their culture and traditions, the things that defined an empire that once stretched all across the stars.

Yeah I know. It is a direct ripoff of the plot of the Hellraiser series. Perhaps you are using a different meaning for worship. They are performing those actions that they know strengthen the god they fear. But hey, keep pointing out how DE are so different then Chaos Eldar.


The Dark Eldar do not worship Slaanesh (indeed, they fear and revile her). It would be far more accurate to say that Slaanesh mimics the Dark Eldar, existing as an exaggerated manifestation of the true society of the Eldar, which is only maintained by those Eldar kin in Commoragh. "Chaos Eldar" would indicate that they venerate Slaanesh, or honor her, or serve her, or even mention her name. They do none of this, and would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with their Craftworld kindred if they had an opportunity to somehow battle her legions and destroy her once and for all. That they must sacrifice souls to her speaks not of veneration, but of the truly dire conditions of their struggle for survival.

I agree that Slaanesh is a manifestation of the old Eldar society. The fact that the DE have continued to act in that manner and strengthen that god is serving her. I understand you wishing to show a distinction but it is without a difference.

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-03-2008, 05:07
I have seen it spelled out directly. I will have to find the titles for you.

Rather you didn't, mind... I don't frequent BL that much for a reason. ;)

intellectawe
10-03-2008, 05:23
I agree that Slaanesh is a manifestation of the old Eldar society. The fact that the DE have continued to act in that manner and strengthen that god is serving her. I understand you wishing to show a distinction but it is without a difference.

What are you not understanding here?

Ok. You have a Satanist who worships Satan. Satan is his God and he performs rituals for Satan. This is a person who loves Satan and will do Satans bidding. Satan says to teh guy 'kill someone for me' the guy does it, Satan is happy.

Now you have a Atheist Monk. Doesn't believe in an divine power. He respects other religions, and knows Satan exists in Christianity. Lets say, that the Monk, like the Satanist, knows Satan exists, but, being an atheist, the monk does not worship Satan nor any other great being.

The Monk got robbed and killed a man in self defense. According to you, the Monk strengthened Satan, even though Satan has nothing to do with the Monk's religion or out look on life.

SAME with Dark Eldar. They know Slaneesh exists, but they do NOT WOrSHIP her. So one Dark Eldar kills a Marine on the battle field. How is that strengthening Slaneesh? One Dark Eldar had had sex with another DE's Husband. How does that strengthen Slaneesh?

Burning Star IV
10-03-2008, 05:41
I'm with intellectawe on this one. I fail to see how they're "chaos eldar" True, they may inadvertently strengthen Slaanesh through their actions, but simply behaving in a way contiguous with a certain religion or Deity's teachings does not constitute worship.

I'll use a RL example.

Most Westerners have personal ethics closely tied to Judeo-Christian teachings, even if not at all interested in the religions themselves. So when someone (lets say a nonreligious person) decides not to commit adultery simply "because it's wrong" does that constitute worship of a deity? I'm no theologian, but I think not.

Anyway, OT, I hope they go for an emphasis on the pirate/ slaver thing, at least so far as imagery goes.

intellectawe
10-03-2008, 05:45
Pirate imagery?

:)

Eye patches and hats?

Burning Star IV
10-03-2008, 05:49
Cybernetically enhanced parrots. With talons made out of heroin needles.

spaint2k
10-03-2008, 05:57
Most Westerners have personal ethics closely tied to Judeo-Christian teachings, even if not at all interested in the religions themselves. So when someone (lets say a nonreligious person) decides not to commit adultery simply "because it's wrong" does that constitute worship of a deity? I'm no theologian, but I think not.


I think Burning Star IV has the most apt analogy, and I hereby declare him the winner of this thread.

Steve

Burning Star IV
10-03-2008, 06:03
I think Burning Star IV has the most apt analogy, and I hereby declare him the winner of this thread.

Steve

I thought the comment concerning the parrots was maybe the most important thing I'd ever written, but thanks anyway.

IncubiLord
10-03-2008, 06:23
Your 2,3,4 and 5 all fall under my '3'. Which is fine that you got into more detail.
...
I didn't miseducate anyone
The way I read your post, the various factions all went their separate ways after the Fall - so there was room for what I see as serious misinterpretation there. If nothing else, I felt the need for more detail.

To me, there is no difference between the Eldar that started the Fall and the Dark Eldar we have today
There is that little matter of the Thirst and the requisite soul-sucking it entails...

Chaos Eldar
:p

While it *is* an internet rule that anyone correcting anyone else's grammar or spelling must commit a mistake of at least one type himself, I don't actually believe the sentence you chose to quote exhibits either.
..
Of course, if I'm wrong, please enlighten me - I find such things terribly embarrassing.
Though it is common use, starting a sentence with a conjunction is improper grammar.

However, such sentences are normal within conversation and some grammar-checking software doesn't recognize it as an error.

It's really just my habit of picking at anybody who picks on others coming to the fore...

"Built in exultation of the Chaos God (She Who Thirsts)".
...
De are described as the thrill seekers and sense-addicts. Lots of Eldar fell to Chaos or fell to infighting between those loyal to the Seers and their corrupt bretheren. We were defeated (obviously this background is a web of lies) and cast out into Commorragh and cursed by She Who Thirsts.
DE, video-game short-form:
"They're, like, Drow Noise Marines."
I'm going to be sick.

It's a shame, too, the preview pics of the DE architecture were very good...

However, you can't blame people for knowing next to nothing about the Dark Eldar. I own the codex and have read it and I still know next to nothing about them. [EDIT: I've not yet read the Torturer's Tale mentioned above.]
Yeah, the sad thing is that the Torturer's Tale is one of the biggest sources used for DE fluff - and it's hidden away in old WDs and a corner of the UK website.

Most the rest of the DE fluff is far too scattered for any non-enthusiast to round up. "Okay, now get the 3ed BGB, the 3ed Eldar codex, the 4ed Eldar codex..."

Perhaps you guys can explain to us dolts how Dark Eldar are so different then Chaos Eldar.
The dolts don't understand more than a one-liner explanation and explaining 40K theology takes longer than that, so you've made a daunting request. However, if you're willing to remove yourself from the "dolt" classification, I'm willing to try.

They performed the actions that led directly to the creation of a Chaos God. They continue to perform those actions which gives that god strength. They perform the actions that avowed worshipers perform.

Perhaps you are using a different meaning for worship. They are performing those actions that they know strengthen the god they fear.
This seems a major sticking point for many people.

Yes, the DE are hedonists. Yes, hedonism is ritualized to worship the Prince of Pleasures. No, hedonism itself is not worshipping the Prince of Pleasures.

We all have to remember that the 40K setting lacks the aetheist's perspective. There isn't room to claim that there is no god in 40K, because when you worship the gods you can gain some tangible, demonstrable proof of your god.

So we have gods, what's that got to do with it?
Good question.

Now that we've established there are gods, let's take a quick look at their domains: Bloodlust, Excess, Change, and Decay.

Indulging in these things is supposed to sometimes feed the corresponding god, who will then sometimes turn around and "bless" his/her "worshippers."

That "sometimes" is often omitted, but it is a blatant constant of the 40K universe when you consider the setting itself.

A Hive World is a planet-sized shrine of decay, so how is it that the Imperium of Man contains so many Hive Worlds and yet is not an empire dedicated to the Lord of Decay? The Kroot are an entire species whose very existance depends on change, why aren't they wandering around with little Pink Horrors all the time? Meanwhile, a Chaos Sorcerer can merely defile an entire city in a blasphemous ritual of enormous proportions (the scale of which seems pretty small compared to the prior points) - why's this so great?

The only possible answer is that simply causing/allowing such activities is not automatically "worship" in the 40K setting. You need intention - or, at least, a complete, unwavering devotion to that one thing as your lifestyle.

Now we get to the Dark Eldar.

If you read the Eldar/DE fluff, the Eldar didn't have to do anything before the Fall. They had robots to do everything that needed done, and they spent all their time having fun. They, as a species, led a life wholly devoted to their own pleasures.

This is dedicated enough to be considered worship by 40K standards. Thus, the pre-Fall Eldar were "worshipping" a yet-to-be-born god who, with no other god to pick up the power being poured into the Warp, came into being. A while later, this Eldar Devil woke up - hence the Fall.

Somehow, in the middle of the mess known as the Fall, all the Eldar robots which did everything for them also went the way of the dodo, too. Why is this important? Because no post-Fall Eldar can actually attain the lifestyle of the pre-Fall Eldar. Without the devoted pleasure-is-everything-for-me lifestyle, you need intention - and only the Crone World Eldar want to worship the Eldar Devil.

So the DE are still hedonists, but they can't ONLY be hedonists. They have to gather slaves, plot against each other to get into - and keep - the more enjoyable positions, and generally work so that they can get back to their parties. All of that is because there isn't an endless stream of Eldar robots that enable each and every Eldar to indulge themselves 24/7.

Their lives aren't dedicated to pleasure (though, like humans, they pursue it constantly) and there's no ritualized worship to the Eldar Devil. Thus, they aren't worshipping the Eldar Devil.

Any questions?
If you're still with me, ask about the Thirst next. It's a big hit, too. ;)

I know they are "scared" of their god and the eternal damnation but well I live in the SouthEast United States. Most Christians I know are the same way.
Most Christians are also afraid of Hell, and its most-noteworthy feature: the Devil. Tell a devout Christian that he's worshipping the Devil - but be sure to have one of your friends video-tape it.

I expect a youtube link to you getting assaulted by a rabid, bible-wielding looney who has temporarily forgetten the Golden Rule.

Burning Star IV
10-03-2008, 06:39
Most Christians are also afraid of Hell, and its most-noteworthy feature: the Devil. Tell a devout Christian that he's worshipping the Devil - but be sure to have one of your friends video-tape it.

I expect a youtube link to you getting assaulted by a rabid, bible-wielding looney who has temporarily forgetten the Golden Rule.

Your post overall was pretty good I'd say, but IMHO would have more integrity without the derogatory stereotype.

IncubiLord
10-03-2008, 07:02
I was raised Christian.
In my experience, truly 'good' Christians are often in the company of the unhinged (and sometimes quite hypocritcal) ones.

While you may have seen a crude, insulting stereotype, I was not intending it as such. I didn't say the person assailing him would be the one he addressed, only that I would expect one such individual to be present. I find the sort of people who give rise to that stereotype to be annoyingly common.

Sadly for all of humanity, it's the extreme cases which people remember the longest. Thus, stereotypes are born from the worst of any group. Those stereotypes are, actually, still representative of the worst elements you find among that group, though.

Burning Star IV
10-03-2008, 07:47
@ Incubilord: Fair enough, thank you for the clarification.

Back on topic, is there any new art for the DE? I've seen the sculpts from GD Barcelona, but is there anything other than that?

spaint2k
10-03-2008, 08:55
Though it is common use, starting a sentence with a conjunction is improper grammar.

However, such sentences are normal within conversation and some grammar-checking software doesn't recognize it as an error.

It's really just my habit of picking at anybody who picks on others coming to the fore...


I have just breathed a sigh of relief. I thought perhaps I'd missed some arcane grammar point that really would embarrass me. As it is, I would rarely consider anyone writing at higher than sixth grade level to be in error for starting a sentence with "and" if it was stylistically deliberate. Of course, a "furthermore" would have worked as well, but would have been unnecessarily pompous on my part when I was already being pompous enough. It may also have been even more erroneous since the original point I was responding to hadn't been made by me.

Cheers,
Steve

Souleater
10-03-2008, 14:21
@Templarben: please don’t hunt out any BL books. The fluff in those things makes the baby emperor cry.

The Dark Eldar, as already said, arent’ as heavily into all sensations as the Pleasure Cults were. Those cults degenerated into madness and killing for pleasure and sensation but we must also wonder just what effect the unborn She Who Thirsts had on the highly sensitive minds of the Pre-Fall Eldar. Some may simply have been driven insane.

The Dark Eldar of today seem intently focused on causing pain and terror. Those specific emotions might be elicited in the victims of a Noise Marine but his main goal is to give himself stimulation, to try and find new sensations that can touch his jaded palate. Fear and terror drunk from the enemy seem to be secondary in many cases.

Dark Eldar on the other hand seem to be more concerned with the infliction of suffering and pain on others. These have become their art forms. Perhaps they let them indulge their artistic streak without giving too much to Her.

My pet theory is that the DE use pain & fear to keep Her away. (There being a world of difference between S&M and torture/terror) Also they are one sensation rather than a spectrum, which might put Her off. A constant diet of one thing might prove unpalatable. But that's just a theory.

Or maybe they have become hooked on the desire to cause terror and pain because those sensations were imprinted upon them at the time of the fall.

They are certainly smart enough to realise that with their heightened awareness there is almost nothing that they can do that won’t feed a Chaos God somehow.

Enjoy a nice pie and they feed Her. Fight and they feed Khorne. Etc, etc

Even a loyalist SM (who would die rather than serve Khorne) is giving Him a little energy when he fights. The chaos powers were formed from subconcious desires and feelings and they still feed on them.

I'm a bit leary of DE being too hedonistic...as Eldar they might be able to reach Noise Marine type levels in their spare time (a Mon-keigh would need to devote their life to reach such levels, I think). And they do have an awful lot of slaves around to do their mundane jobs, so it would be quite easy for them to become devotees of She Who Thirsts (certainly the nobility or successful raiders)

shin'keiro
10-03-2008, 14:29
I hope there isn't any changes to the rules...

Marinox
10-03-2008, 15:20
i really hope ALL ties between slaneesh and the DE get flushed...

TzeentchForPresident
10-03-2008, 15:55
There was some really old fluff about how an Imperial governor fought a war vs Eldar because he among other things kept used Eldar spiritstones as jewelry. To make it short he was eventually captured and the whole planet was blown up.

However what does this has to do with Dark Eldar?

Well, in that story the Eldar after some talks decided to let him suffer eternal punishment in the hands of Dark Eldar. However the governor wasn´t escorted through the webways by Craftworld Eldar, but Harlequins. And when the Dark Eldar was told by the Harlequins what the governor had done, they weren´t happy at all.

So it seems that Dark Eldar and Craft World Eldar have some common ground even if they can´t met face-to-face. But apparently Harlequins do talk to Dark Eldar.

A possible change could be that Dark Eldar can include Harlequins in the army and perhaps not just 1 unit, but all types that weren´t there in CraftWorld Eldar codex.

That would add some variation and craziness to the army and lots of colour!

And I don´t think the step from Harlequins now and Harlequins being Allied with Dark Eldar is that big. Just think of Batmans arch-nemesis the Joker. He is certainly dark and twisted enough and at the same time being a joker ;).

intellectawe
10-03-2008, 16:29
Of course all Eldar have common ground. Dark Eldar try to avoid battling Eldar, Exodite and Harlies when they can, because even though each Eldar kin has their own agenda, to loose ANY Eldar would mean making Slaneesh stronger.

Eldar and Dark Eldar don't hang out together at parties normally, but they would avoid each other on the battle field if they could.

Now... there are instances when they do fight, but that isn't the norm.

madbomber23
10-03-2008, 20:33
Dark Eldar are getting a new codex?

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-03-2008, 22:59
I thought the comment concerning the parrots was maybe the most important thing I'd ever written, but thanks anyway.

Suffice to say, you win the thread. Jeez, way to be ungrateful. ;)



Though it is common use, starting a sentence with a conjunction is improper grammar.

However, such sentences are normal within conversation and some grammar-checking software doesn't recognize it as an error.

It's really just my habit of picking at anybody who picks on others coming to the fore...

Awesome post overall, and I know you don't mean to grammar-Nazi anyone, but I need an excuse to use this as a reminder to everyone here:

Link (http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/6/63/Klink.jpg)

malisteen
10-03-2008, 23:44
The biggest change I expect is one regarding Dark Eldar and Psychics. I rather expect to see psykers in the new Dark Eldar book, and no mention of the Deldar hating/fearing them. Going by GW fluff, all eldar are gifted psykers, so that bit of fluff just doesn't seem to work.

Plus, there's something just not quite right with an elf army that has no magic.

intellectawe
10-03-2008, 23:48
Going by GW fluff, all eldar are gifted psykers, so that bit of fluff just doesn't seem to work.

Plus, there's something just not quite right with an elf army that has no magic.

Um... Dark Eldar codex IS GW fluff.

Dark Eldar don't like psykers very much. So if GW wrote them to be this way then what you said....


Going by GW fluff, all eldar are gifted psykers....

is not true. Also, being a gifted psyker does not mean the army needs to have models on the table which use psyker powers.

I also hope that you...


Plus, there's something just not quite right with an elf army that has no magic.

are joking and being sarcastic.

:evilgrin:

IncubiLord
11-03-2008, 00:45
Link (http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/6/63/Klink.jpg)
Quite.

The biggest change I expect is one regarding Dark Eldar and Psychics. I rather expect to see psykers in the new Dark Eldar book, and no mention of the Deldar hating/fearing them. Going by GW fluff, all eldar are gifted psykers, so that bit of fluff just doesn't seem to work.
:eyebrows:
The DE don't fear/hate psykers. They DO "view those who use psychic powers as amusing playthings," though.

You can also open the DE codex to page 35 and see that Destructors don't have a visible trigger mechanism - they're specifically noted as such with the 'suggestion' that it is fired by psychic means.

The DE seem to actually use "everyday magic" psychic powers. Indeed, the Eldar race is supposed to have never industrialized through non-psychic means. Eldar 'grow' their technology, they don't weld it together.

Champsguy
11-03-2008, 05:54
Well Havik, I don't know about you, but I have been playing DE since the Wych Cult came out. And I can tell you, that over the past 8ish years, I have always had to deal with players wh know next to nothing about DE, yet want to just voice their opinions. Its kind of sad all the incorrect assumptions people make, and yet they have probably never seen a DE army or read the DE codex before.

I played Dark Eldar when 3rd edition first came out, before Wych cults. I've never seen any difference between DE and Chaos Eldar. I have seen DE players almost unanimously deny that DE are Chaos Eldar in any way, shape or form.

There have been a lot of analogies used in this thread. I'll offer my own.

You have two guys. One is a Satanist. He kills dogs and cats and offers them up to Satan. He performs erotic dances with small children at night around bonfires in praise to Satan. He defaces Christian churches in praise to Satan.

The other guy? His family and friends say he's not a Satanist. He believes in Satan, though, 100%. He kills dogs and cats. He performs erotic dances with small children at night around bonfires. He defaces Christian churches. The last house he lived in is now a Satanic church.

Is there a difference?

Any differences I see are negligible. Sure, there are differences. Are they important? They don't seem important to me. To me they seem like Gollum and the One Ring. They hate Slaanesh, but they need her so...

rcm2216
11-03-2008, 06:09
According to how the pattern of the new codex have been issued, GW will do this- the units that have been deemed the most popular will try to be balanced with the least popular. Hence they will tamper with the usually selected units in the army list and make them more even with what is already in the codex. Therefore the codex will be balanced by itself first. Then it will be balanced with the overall direction of the game intended by GW which includes all the army measured against one another. This means it will a few marine killing elements, a few horde killing weapons, and a vehicle adjustment. I hope they limit the effectiveness of the Dark Eldar always being able to control the initiative and timing of assault combat.

IncubiLord
11-03-2008, 07:57
There have been a lot of analogies used in this thread. I'll offer my own.

You have two guys. One is a Satanist. He kills dogs and cats and offers them up to Satan. He performs erotic dances with small children at night around bonfires in praise to Satan. He defaces Christian churches in praise to Satan.

The other guy? His family and friends say he's not a Satanist. He believes in Satan, though, 100%. He kills dogs and cats. He performs erotic dances with small children at night around bonfires. He defaces Christian churches. The last house he lived in is now a Satanic church.

Is there a difference?

Any differences I see are negligible.
In your RL example, you're quite right.
In 40K, however, it's not whether or not you believe in 'Satan' - nor is it questionable whether or not 'Satan' has power over mortals.

So, to make your example accurate to the 40K setting:
The first guy grows horns and gains magic powers - and whenever he does the naughty dances a little demon shows up to eat the kids he gathered.

The second guy hasn't become demonic, gained magic powers, nor drawn little demon-buddies who show up just because he's partying. While 'Satan' may be pleased with these actions on some level, they're not a ritual for him and he doesn't give this guy anything. Sure, Satanists moved into his old house because it "feels right," but those Satanists would be happy at any site of multiple violent deaths.

'Satan' doesn't 'pay' for run-of-the-mill sickos to do things he'd approve of, and the run-of-the-mill sickos aren't doing things for, or expecting benefits from, 'Satan.'

Dracon Bob
11-03-2008, 09:18
You have two guys. One is a Satanist. He kills dogs and cats and offers them up to Satan. He performs erotic dances with small children at night around bonfires in praise to Satan. He defaces Christian churches in praise to Satan.

The other guy? His family and friends say he's not a Satanist. He believes in Satan, though, 100%. He kills dogs and cats. He performs erotic dances with small children at night around bonfires. He defaces Christian churches. The last house he lived in is now a Satanic church.

Is there a difference?


Will Satan consume the second guys soul if he doesn't kill dogs and cats? And does the second guy live in a society founded on depravity?


I hope they limit the effectiveness of the Dark Eldar always being able to control the initiative and timing of assault combat.

Thats the whole point of Dark Eldar tactics...

Personally, I would like to see more fluff talking about what the Dark Eldar do when they're not capturing souls and removing skin from living people. Also, a clue about how a self-destructive society can survive for so long.
Bob.

TheOverlord
11-03-2008, 09:23
Most of the races of 40k go to war in hatred and martial pride. Technically everyone worships Khorne. We don't call the Imperium Chaos worshippers. We call chaos worshippers chaos worshippers. Fine line, but a line nonetheless. They are Dark Eldar, not Chaos Eldar. There probably is chaos eldar out there... a little stupid, but there might.

Ward.
11-03-2008, 10:04
You have two guys. One is a Satanist. He kills dogs and cats and offers them up to Satan. He performs erotic dances with small children at night around bonfires in praise to Satan. He defaces Christian churches in praise to Satan.

The other guy? His family and friends say he's not a Satanist. He believes in Satan, though, 100%. He kills dogs and cats. He performs erotic dances with small children at night around bonfires. He defaces Christian churches. The last house he lived in is now a Satanic church.

Is there a difference?


In response to this statment and playing the devils advocate (coincidence?)
First of all you have to define the type of satanist and his motivations ( as Dracon Bob alluded to, perhaps without knowing it). Next you have to take into account that in many satanic circles sacrificing a living animal is considered pointless as satan requires personal sacrifice. Not only that but the pedophilia aspect is also heavily frowned upon and not required in any way.

Not to mention the fact that both examples you gave where of the same thing, only the second example seems to allude to it being only the players that say there's a difference even though the fluff agree's with them.




Any differences I see are negligible. Sure, there are differences. Are they important? They don't seem important to me. To me they seem like Gollum and the One Ring. They hate Slaanesh, but they need her so...

They don't "need" slaanesh, she's the an unfortunate bi-product of them seeking to enjoy the fruits of their own percieved perfection.



EDIT:

Most of the races of 40k go to war in hatred and martial pride. Technically everyone worships Khorne. We don't call the Imperium Chaos worshippers. We call chaos worshippers chaos worshippers. Fine line, but a line nonetheless. They are Dark Eldar, not Chaos Eldar. There probably is chaos eldar out there... a little stupid, but there might.

I believe there was mentions of chaos eldar in earlier editions of 40k, and they where all quite powerful beings.

Dracon Bob
11-03-2008, 11:13
You have two guys. One is a Satanist. He kills dogs and cats and offers them up to Satan. He performs erotic dances with small children at night around bonfires in praise to Satan. He defaces Christian churches in praise to Satan.

The other guy? His family and friends say he's not a Satanist. He believes in Satan, though, 100%. He kills dogs and cats. He performs erotic dances with small children at night around bonfires. He defaces Christian churches. The last house he lived in is now a Satanic church.

Is there a difference?

Any differences I see are negligible. Sure, there are differences. Are they important? They don't seem important to me. To me they seem like Gollum and the One Ring. They hate Slaanesh, but they need her so...

Then hes probably a Satanist. Do Dark Eldar live in Slaaneshi Churches? Your analogy doesn't make much sense tbh.

The point I was trying to make is that the Dark Eldar are a product of their environment. Their depravity is all they know. They kill to survive and they hide in the webway to survive. Yes, they commit acts that Slaanesh would approve of, but not in Slaanesh's name. They would be MUCH better off without 'She Who Thirsts'. Them 'feeding' her is unfortunate, and I'm sure the Dark Eldar would agree. But do they have a choice?

intellectawe
11-03-2008, 12:02
I played Dark Eldar when 3rd edition first came out, before Wych cults. I've never seen any difference between DE and Chaos Eldar. I have seen DE players almost unanimously deny that DE are Chaos Eldar in any way, shape or form.


Its kind of sad all the incorrect assumptions people make, and yet they have probably never seen a DE army or read the DE codex before.

Sorry, I don't believe you one bit. You are the exact example of the kind of person who talks about DE but has never read the codex.

Claiming what you claim, is the same as me saying

"Oh, I played Blood Angels for years, but I don't see any difference between the Emperor or Khorne in their codex."

'Orks worship Nurgle. I mean, they are green!"

If you would have ever read the codex, you will find the words "Dark Eldar worship Slaneesh" nowhere in the book at all.

AdmiralDick
11-03-2008, 13:36
as a lot of people have said, there isn't much information on the DE at the moment, so its not like there is much to 'change', but there is quite a lot to clarify. as others have pointed out, what exactly happend at the fall and whether DE are a carbon copy of Eldar from before the fall.

one of the things i quite like about the DE is there sense of anonymity. the Craftworld Eldar have been dominated by the personalities of the craftworlds from their very conception (which is cool don't get me wrong), but the DE are the other end of the spectrum. when they turn up and kick your head in you won't be able to say who did it. it could be just about any DE cabal.

i think it gives then a really sinister and primal feel that the CWE don't have because of their strong social structure. the DE are lurking in the background ready to pounce on you, but once they've captured your friend they leave no calling card for you to be able to follow.

so whilst it would be nice to hear some more about the larger factions of DE i hope that they don't gain as much rigidity of personallity as the CWE.


I'm against them being turned to Chaos Eldar, too. It just seems too easy a choice. I also remember the days when every army got Chaos Variants. It just got annoying in the end.

whilst i would actually quite like players to be given the option of fielding Chaos Eldar in games of 40K, its not really appropriate to change the DE into Chaos Eldar (they are similar in many ways but no the same thing). however i do disagree with the attitude that there is 'too much chaos in the game'. i think a lot of that attitude stems from a distaste to the extreme reaction the Codex: CSM caused, rather than than any particular evidence from the game. there is currently only one Chaos army in 40k (there will be two when the Daemon book comes out). there used to be ways of fielding units of Chaos Squats and Chaos Orks, but it has never really extended further than that.

for the most part there should be Chaos alternatives to races (although they don't need there own Codex), but this has really not been touched on as much as the background suggests that it should have been.


Problem with Intellectawe’s timeline is that it seems to make Dark Eldar = Chaos Eldar.

i don't know whether that's true. i think it just says the bare facts. before the fall most Eldar behaved as the DE do now. the Exodites and Craftworld Eldar found ways of moving beyond that lifestyle after the Fall, the DE did not (or chose not to). that doesn't make them directly Chaotic at all.

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-03-2008, 17:51
Most of the races of 40k go to war in hatred and martial pride. Technically everyone worships Khorne. We don't call the Imperium Chaos worshippers. We call chaos worshippers chaos worshippers. Fine line, but a line nonetheless. They are Dark Eldar, not Chaos Eldar. There probably is chaos eldar out there... a little stupid, but there might.

There are Chaos Eldar. One was a Phoenix Lord, Ahra, of the Striking Scorpions ('burns with the dark light of Chaos'). Funnily enough, some people theorize that he was the Dark Father who founded the Incubi. I like it, personally; just a little bit of Chaos but not enough to make people think DE are Chaos Eldar (if the reader pays some attention to what he's reading... :rolleyes:).

There's also a Farseer who fell to Tzeentch... I want to say during the Eye of Terror campaign.

Supposedly, some Eldar survive on the Crone Worlds that were consumed by the warp-matter that exploded into space when Slaanesh was born. Eye of Terror, for those not in the know. ;)

All I can think of so far.

intellectawe
11-03-2008, 18:48
I agree.

Some Eldar ( as a race ) are worshipers of Chaos.

But in general, ( specific to this discussion ) Dark Eldar do not.

Burning Star IV
11-03-2008, 18:55
Oh but intellect and imperialis, you've forgotten that DE are bad! And bad = chaos! Remember? Like a couple of weeks ago, when I accidentally gave the flu to some people I work with and thus became a devotee of Nurgle, y'know?

intellectawe
11-03-2008, 18:59
Oh but intellect and imperialis, you've forgotten that DE are bad! And bad = chaos! Remember? Like a couple of weeks ago, when I accidentally gave the flu to some people I work with and thus became a devotee of Nurgle, y'know?

Wow... I can feel my toughness raise a point!

Imma go out and foil crimes... Watch the bullets bounce right off of me in the news report!

( Hopefully the bullets don't have a low AP :) )

Souleater
12-03-2008, 10:00
@ Admiraldick: I'm not talking about the current level of Chaos in the game but going back to 1st and 2nd Edition 40k. At one point I there was a Chaos Genestealer Cult army that could field a Genestealer Patriarch possessed by a Greater Daemon.

While the lure of Chaos is pretty much universal I just got kinda fed up with every month there being 'This Month's Devotee's to Chaos' army.

Slightly on topic, I think that actual Chaos Eldar could be an interesting modelling project. Obviously I would avoid the usual 'give 'dem spikes and paint 'em purple and black' routine. I think they would be a very intresting army.

hivefleetcarrion
12-03-2008, 10:55
Majority of de don't worship slaanesh. they perform actions that strengthen her, and by consuming the life force of others give her power over a longer period of time (she constantly leeches their life force, only way to survive is to top them selves up).

i do remember it being written somewhere that chaos eldar are very rare, but very powerful (might have been rt or 40k rpg?- not in any codex within the last 2 eds).

and while being a physic race and having enough control to fire guns ect, they dont use it for combat training( like normal eldar) they like to torment and unleash them onto their enemies. (look at grey knights, their all physic, but majority of them can only use it enough to make their weapons work as powerweapons)

harlies move freely between all groups, as they are dedicated to removing chaos