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View Full Version : Have faith in 5th ed! It's going to KICK ASS



AllisterCaine
17-01-2008, 02:36
Do you know why? Because they really cant screw it up more than they did with 4th! ITS THAT SIMPLE :D !!! Considering that 4th ed rules are a ***** up on a COLOSSAL level, the chance of 5th ed being bad, is at like the negative %! Besides! IF 5th ed does prove to be even worse than 4th, its not like the first time GW says "hey, you know what Bob, we dont have to care about those people, lets just get more money from our $100 rule books, constant price hikes, and badass miniatures you cant find elsewhere that costs a ridiculous amount of money! like forgeworld! :D"

now lets compile a list of why 4th ed sucks, and that it most definetly wont be missed. oh and codexes that update once every few years also add to the game balance...wait, what?

useless leadership
useless close combat resolution, see leadership above ^ :D
chaos codex and its ********
ap values
rending and ITS ********
ultimate badasses that wipe out squads by themselves
24" charges in the first turn of the game
my ork missile on a wagon blowing up your land raider with a glancing 6
my genestealers ripping through your leman russes...with CLAWS. see rending.
monstrous creatures and THEIR ********, see tyranids, especially tyrant guards
instant death, aka "hey look, your 10,000 year old space marine chapter master got his face punched in...by an ork!"
tank shock and its uselessness
sniper rifles and its uselessness

overall making the game more retarded with every update (not 5th though, because thats just crazy talk :D, you just cant make something at the lowest level of retardation even more retarded, as much as GW tries too, even they can fail sometimes.)

good bye 4th ed! and good ******** riddance!

Baltar
17-01-2008, 02:37
Most of that stuff probably isn't going away.

New Cult King
17-01-2008, 02:40
I'm sensing a little hostility here.

*takes notes*

What was your relationship like with your parents?

The Old Scholar
17-01-2008, 02:40
Hehehe!
Are you saying you've never had fun playing 4th ed. as f*cked up as it as and all of those ******** rules?
But yeah, 10,000 year old space marine chapter masters suck.

Ravenous
17-01-2008, 02:47
Some people run at the idea of being raped by a 300lb gorilla, others attempt to fight and eventually give in, and well others are in their S & M gear bent over with a gleeful smile before the gorilla even gets that twinkle in their eye.

I'll let you guys figure out the metaphor.

Dragonlv8
17-01-2008, 02:47
I'm sensing a little hostility here.

*takes notes*

What was your relationship like with your parents?

lol.

just 1 thing, if you hate the game so much, why then are you playing it?
I honestly hope your joking with all that for your sake.

AllisterCaine
17-01-2008, 02:50
lol.

just 1 thing, if you hate the game so much, why then are you playing it?
I honestly hope your joking with all that for your sake.


i was joking, and being sarcastic. but at least what i say is true is it not?

The Old Scholar
17-01-2008, 02:56
i was joking, and being sarcastic. but at least what i say is true is it not?

Hell yeah!
******** Chaos Codex! :D
Anyone that couldn't see your sense of humor and irony in your post is merely protective of their beloved hobby.
For me, it is a love hate thing where I waste all of my money while bitching about how much I hate the crappy rules changes and the Necrons...oh, and Chaos and Space Marine Chapter Masters.

Baltar
17-01-2008, 02:56
I really want to see less of an emphasis on the rush and close combat.

RampagingRavener
17-01-2008, 02:57
I hate this thread and everything it represents.

Personally the 5th ed rumours are interesting. My Tyranids are going to get shafted to hell, but I don't play them so much these days. My Dark Eldar are going to get a little worse, I think. And my Orks will probably stay about the same, and they're what I'm using at the moment.

I have my concerns about 5th ed, and all in all there's a good chance I might just stick with fourth because I know it, and I like it. And also, the stupid amount of money and time I've put into my Tyranid army won't end up having been pissed away.

And before anyone comes up with the "Hurr u dunt can play tactics n00b" I desperatly wanted to start playing Warmachine, and tried to convince my regular group to play, but no luck there. But regardless. According to the OP, because I've not got a huge chubby over 5th ed, that probably makes me a 'retard' since that seems to be his new favourite word.

I hope to god this is a troll thread.

EDIT: If it isn't then no offense to the OP. But I object to the attitude in the first post very strongly.

Gensuke626
17-01-2008, 02:57
i was joking, and being sarcastic. but at least what i say is true is it not?

Not entirely...
I mean, I LOVE Tankshock...and I've used it to destroy Space marine squads before (Pre Deff-rolla)
Hero-Hammer went out the door when squad support became something useful, though Hidden Fists are the new herohammer...fist sarges are no where near being "Ultimate Badasses"
Death glancing with Ork Rokkits are all Orks can do now a days to hurt vehicles...Orks have lost all effective forms of Tankbusting from the old dex, so we need to make due with what we're left with...Tankbustas who aren't tank hunters, rokkits on wagons, trukks, or in mobs, kannons, and the occasional zzap gun or Shokk Attack Gun.

Besides...it's bad luck to say anything along the lines of "What's the worst that can happen." or "It can't get worse from here." It can always get worse...

They might send us back to Rogue Trader Days...

Xenocidal Maniac
17-01-2008, 03:54
I hate this thread and everything it represents.

Agreed.

Crawl back into your cave, troll.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
17-01-2008, 03:57
Quick question: why are we letting this turn into a rant thread?

Answer: Because it was a rant thread in the first place. MODS!


EDIT: Wait, nevermind....for some bizarre reason, I thought this was in Rumour Discussion. Ignore me, please.

AllisterCaine
17-01-2008, 03:59
I hate this thread and everything it represents.

Personally the 5th ed rumours are interesting. My Tyranids are going to get shafted to hell, but I don't play them so much these days. My Dark Eldar are going to get a little worse, I think. And my Orks will probably stay about the same, and they're what I'm using at the moment.

I have my concerns about 5th ed, and all in all there's a good chance I might just stick with fourth because I know it, and I like it. And also, the stupid amount of money and time I've put into my Tyranid army won't end up having been pissed away.

And before anyone comes up with the "Hurr u dunt can play tactics n00b" I desperatly wanted to start playing Warmachine, and tried to convince my regular group to play, but no luck there. But regardless. According to the OP, because I've not got a huge chubby over 5th ed, that probably makes me a 'retard' since that seems to be his new favourite word.

I hope to god this is a troll thread.

EDIT: If it isn't then no offense to the OP. But I object to the attitude in the first post very strongly.

You dont have to worry about that, i almost never get offended. However, i do believe you have missed the point of this thread, what i was trying to say (mostly) is that the 4th ed rules are pretty bad (even though i had fun with it) and that 5th should improve it somewhat.

BTW, saying those things at the end, like "no offense", it just really doesnt make any sense to me. Its like saying "no offense, but you suck" if you want to say something, say it, why do you worry how the other guy feels if you know its just your opinion and you ARE trying to offend and insult him?

Yeah no kidding Gensuke, "whats the worst that could happen? 6 asscannons in a 5 man terminator squad?" i wouldnt worry about the rogue trader days though, after all, i would like to see the stats of the emperor, he has the RIGHT to be an ultimate badass of badasses.

AllisterCaine
17-01-2008, 04:05
Agreed.

Crawl back into your cave, troll.

Ive always thought when you quote someone, you quote the whole thing. Hes stated his reason, did you?

RampagingRavener
17-01-2008, 04:15
BTW, saying those things at the end, like "no offense", it just really doesnt make any sense to me. Its like saying "no offense, but you suck" if you want to say something, say it, why do you worry how the other guy feels if you know its just your opinion and you ARE trying to offend and insult him?

It was a disclaimer in case you weren't trolling (which I've now established you arn't), kicked off, and decided to report my own post to the moderators as trolling. Tone doesn't carry well online, and in some cases it's better to put a quick line at the end instead of messing the post up with several vague emoticons. Frankly I couldn't care less if you were offended or not by my post, so long as you understood it wasn't just a countertroll. Perhaps wording it as "No offense intended if I've mistaken the intent of your post" would have been better; but frankly what did you expect with such an opening to the thread?

And as for 4th ed rules being 'pretty bad'? No, I don't think they are. I think a lot of the complaining about the rules is horribly overblown. Of course I'll accept GW's stuff isn't perfect; almost often their stuff is poorly written and open to exploitation, both by RAW and RAI obsessives. There are some grotesquely powerful army combinations out there that really should have been caught in playtesting. But if you keep away from the competative side, these problems are much reduced and the game, IMO, becomes more enjoyable.

I honestly don't think 5th ed will solve these problems. Rules will still be badly written and vague. Power lists will still be around and dominate tournaments* and freindly games alike. All that'll happen is the rules get more boggy and complex, and several existing army builds get damaged harshly. 5th edition will be no better than 4th edition. It'll just be diffrent, with a diffrent set of problems.

*Note that there's nothing wrong with taking a power list to a Tournament, it's to be expected and folk don't have much right to complain about Dual-Lash or Tri-Falcon in such an enviroment.

Occulto
17-01-2008, 04:28
I'll let you guys figure out the metaphor.

All I know is Freud would have a field day with you.

Not sure that I would've chosen a metaphor involving a 300lb gorilla and S&M gear.

Something you want to share with us?

It's OK, we're all friends here. :p

stompzilla
17-01-2008, 04:57
useless leadership

You obviously don't play Tau, Eldar or guard, where LD actually is a big deal. See also orks once they start to take casualties and nids once their Synapse has been assasinated.


useless close combat resolution, see leadership above ^ :D
Since CC is THE quickest way to wipe a squad off the map and happens twice every turn i think combat is pretty powerful as it is.


ap values
Not gonna change, and a damned sight better than armour save mods.


rending and ITS ********
The only thing i object to is it's effect on vehicles. Take that out of the equation and i think rending is fine.

ultimate badasses that wipe out squads by themselves
Till they take a powerfist to the face, if fighting 8ft tall killing machines. If fighting guard or equivelent then do you not think a 10,000 year old daemon prince or uber chapter master of awesomeness shouldn't be able to kick the crap out of 10 grunts?

24" charges in the first turn of the game
Not really going to argue with this one, however i think if you're dumb enough to deploy your troops so this can happen then you kinda deserve it. Also there's pretty much only DE who can do this.

my ork missile on a wagon blowing up your land raider with a glancing 6
Orks really don't have anything else. If they can hit on a 5, glance on a 6 and then roll another 6, all after maneuvering into 24" of your LR, then i think they deserve it to be fair.

my genestealers ripping through your leman russes...with CLAWS. see rending.
See above comments on rending.

instant death, aka "hey look, your 10,000 year old space marine chapter master got his face punched in...by an ork!"
With a giganto-claw of uber doom that can rip tanks to pieces. Hey they're tough but not invincible. Again, your marine commander has I5, compared to the Ork's I1 and a 2" kill zone. If you can't clear that, or maneuver a charge so you don't have to face that till his mates turn up to help out, then you also deserve what's coming to you. Remember an "Ork" nearly strangled the emperor himself to death and was only saved when Horus poontanged his green ass.

tank shock and its uselessness
sniper rifles and its uselessness

Both of which are anything but useless :rolleyes:

thechosenone
17-01-2008, 05:06
4th edition gets flamed nearly as much as 20th century dictators...

I think what we knock around in the rules forums really don't translate into the real world as often as we assume. If they did i or an opponent would have punched each other out over something like turbo scout deth koptars, persistant acts of faith ect... ect..

When your at the gaming table with most reasonable gamers (IE someone over thirteen years or and not someone that custom makes a t-shirt for his army.) these things do not really end your fun. and post your horror stories if you want but if its happening more then a fourth of the time find a new place to game.

All these things people bring up really aren't that bad. Rending is rough but its only on HtH focused units. One exception is the assault cannon. Its one gun, it costs a lot and its on vehicles. So, demonettes in old chaos, genestealers ect... you shoot them. You know. If a genestealer player gets his stealers near your terminators either he did something right or you did it wrong. Good game.

Why are you complaining about an ork blowing up a landraider with an ork missile. He needed a 5 to hit you and had to be in 24 inchs. He then needed to roll a six and then for a damage result he needed another six. My god... if that happens good game, it was funny. well played. hooray you got a short ranged weapon that close to something that has no business being that close to anti-tank.

What's the complaint about AP values. Its easier to use then 2nd ed's modifier chart. I used it, it wasn't the end of the world but you gun telling me if i can save or not is fine too. I know a modifier is more realistic but its a table top game representing war in the 40th millenium. All and all their doing a pretty good job.Let's put it this way, to make it a talking point in your hate rant isn't deserved.

If the ultimate badass is a special character, i agree so far as to say there is no reason to play a special character unless your doing something special. and then yeah, i should be able to charge ghazkull or nightbringer or abaddon into a tactical squad and expect a return on investment. If your talking about hidden fists, its not that big of a deal. Its only useful in cc otherwise they wasted 25 points. And any fiction or narrative you read is about a brave soldier doing something awesome and lasting to the bitter end.

Sniper rifles and tank shock are tough sells in game, i agree there.

Leadership for not failing due to shooting phase i agree. In cc there are modifiers. Tell and ork player that getting a -4 or 5 on his opponent is useless. I don't think that's so bad.

What's wrong with monsterous creatures. They are big, they kill people?

More chaos dex hating. Listen i have five different chaos armies at 3000 points or more. Is the background different, somewhat. Do demons suck, yes. Can i live without legion rules... yes. Can we wait to see what codex demons will do... yes.

What's wrong with instant death? I don't care if your marenus calgar if you get shot with no avoid instant death tricks items or rules active by a battle cannon or a particle whip you melt. So you put a lot of points into it, your fault for getting him shot or good play by your opponent. Good game. If you mean in Hth, again anyone that can instant kill you in hth with str alone is someone you didn't want to be in hth with. So again, either your fault or good work for your opponent. Lets think about it, its not unfair. A warboss is stronger then a marine. So maybe he could pick up a car with effort. Now he hits me with a power claw which can eat through a car... god, i wouldn't want to live after that. So yeah if you get hit by something with the strength of a crane you die.

I respect discussion but to throw out an argument full of self censoring and the word retarded used several times... i'm just saying your not coming across well. let's discuss, i'm not attacking. I'm a friendly guy. Will 5th ed be good. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'm not fearing it, but 4th ed isn't like some preschooler made crayon written collection of dreck.

thechosenone
17-01-2008, 05:07
damn stompzilla you beat me! curse you!

Natura
17-01-2008, 05:11
You obviously don't play Tau, Eldar or guard, where Ld actually is a big deal. See also orks once they start to take casualties and nids once their Synapse has been assasinated.

Amen! As an Ork player, it always makes me laugh to see people claiming LD has no effect in 4th ed. Try running a squad of Meganobs in the new Codex and say that again.

stompzilla
17-01-2008, 05:16
damn stompzilla you beat me! curse you!

;)

Nice to see there are more reasonable gamers out there, who give their opponent the respect they're due. :)

thechosenone
17-01-2008, 05:22
;)

Nice to see there are more reasonable gamers out there, who give their opponent the respect they're due. :)

The guy that beats me deserve as much respect as the guy i beat.

intellectawe
17-01-2008, 05:37
Don't forget Dark Eldar for leadership.

Average leadership of 8. No way of straight boosting it like other armies. The only way is to use wargear that you first have to WIN combat with to get a +1 leadership.

So we can have 9 leadership, but we have to work for it.

Almost nothing we have is fearless and/or ignores morale. We do not reroll leadership for anything.

If anything, Dark Eldar are the model army when it comes to 'being a great army without any real cheesy/cheap leadership rules'.

AllisterCaine
17-01-2008, 06:35
I respect discussion but to throw out an argument full of self censoring and the word retarded used several times... i'm just saying your not coming across well. let's discuss, i'm not attacking. I'm a friendly guy. Will 5th ed be good. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'm not fearing it, but 4th ed isn't like some preschooler made crayon written collection of dreck.

You're right, i was just trying to act like an idiot to get my valid points across. If i was more mature, reserved, and overall more colorful in my vocabulary, my post would've counted for more? It's hard to think about on the internet, but yes- you did a very accurate analysis on my post and what i was trying to say, no sarcasm.

However, some of the things i said still stand, most armies dont care about leadership, its next to useless. Snipers and tank shock are still useless, close combat resolution is a joke, and instant death is still very lame because most of the time no matter how good you are, you will eventually get in close combat with a str 8 power weapon or something. Rending should have minor effect on vehicles, period. Not rip through them with str 6 + 6 + D6. That is just stupid. 4th ed is flawed, big time; it will be very hard to talk me out of it.
BTW, just so i dont have the black mark on me, im not the kind of guy to go on a rampage about bs moments in the game, aka my land raider getting blown up by an ork rocket. But seriously, does it honestly make sense for things like that to happen?

Moriarty
17-01-2008, 07:59
Some people run at the idea of being raped by a 300lb gorilla, others attempt to fight and eventually give in, and well others are in their S & M gear bent over with a gleeful smile before the gorilla even gets that twinkle in their eye.

I'll let you guys figure out the metaphor.

But never on a first date, and only if he buys me dinner.

Red_Scorpion
17-01-2008, 09:08
I have been playing 40k since I was 13, the days of rouge trader, when the rules were really more like suggestions. I have seen 40k go through MANY changes and have learned to adapt. If and when 5th ed. comes out it will just be yet another change to adapt to. Play as many games as I can to find what works and what REALLY doesn’t work, but above all have fun. As for the 4th ed. rules were events happen that souldn't, Yeah it's a bummer when Your Space Marine Commander is insta killed, but that is an example of the random chance inherit in 40k. If you want a real world example, look at SGT Alvin York in WW1. I'll spare You a history lesson but to put it in 40k terms he killed or captured the equivalent of three sqauds of 1st company veterans with only a lasgun and a heavy stubber and his STR and T of three and one wound. Now even in 40k that coudn't happen.

Gen.Steiner
17-01-2008, 09:27
... im not the kind of guy to go on a rampage about bs moments in the game, aka my land raider getting blown up by an ork rocket. But seriously, does it honestly make sense for things like that to happen?

Yes, it does. There's always random chance, blind luck, sheer good fortune, and the blessing of the Gods.

Always. In real life as on the fields of the far future!

Psycoticspacemarine
17-01-2008, 10:35
Rending should have minor effect on vehicles, period. Not rip through them with str 6 + 6 + D6. That is just stupid.

And what would that "minor effect" be? Also, if some ppl have it their way and rending doesn't affect vehicles at all, what are the nids going to do for anti-tank?

Gen.Steiner
17-01-2008, 10:48
And what would that "minor effect" be? Also, if some ppl have it their way and rending doesn't affect vehicles at all, what are the nids going to do for anti-tank?

Venom Cannons, Warp Blast, urm... what else do they have? Close combat 'fexes? :confused:

Psycoticspacemarine
17-01-2008, 10:55
Venom Cannons, Warp Blast, urm... what else do they have? Close combat 'fexes? :confused:

cc fexes will NEVER kill a tank. A tank can easily outrun a fex. the VC only glances + one can only take 3 that have a str high enough to actually have a chance at glancing.

as far as Warp Blast it is alright but short ranged. and before you say it i know the rending claws are cc but you have a lot better chance at getting them to the tank.

RampagingRavener
17-01-2008, 10:55
Venom Cannons, Warp Blast, urm... what else do they have? Close combat 'fexes? :confused:

Pfft. You've got about as much chance catching a Tank with a CC Carnifex as someone inept has of catching something hard to catch.

Warp Blast is short ranged and innacurate, while Venom Cannons are glance-only and innacurate. Rending, right now, is the 'Nids best way of dealing with tanks; suppress them with VC and WB potshots and then tear them open with rending (or a Flyrant). So now that Rending's being nerfed, it'll hurt, and probably for no better reason than because people were whiny and ******** about Assault Cannons and Harlequins.

Gen.Steiner
17-01-2008, 11:02
Hrm. Best to stick with fourth then! :D

Just like me. :evilgrin:

Brother-Captain De Angele
17-01-2008, 11:09
4th edition for chaos was an epic fail and probably 4th edition dark eldar will be an epic fail to so 5th edition might be an epic success for those armys, and obviously they is still gonna make dem loyalist marine boyz da best which sucks

Psycoticspacemarine
17-01-2008, 11:12
4th edition for chaos was an epic fail and probably 4th edition dark eldar will be an epic fail to so 5th edition might be an epic success for those armys, and obviously they is still gonna make dem loyalist marine boyz da best which sucks

If the rumors are true Tyranids will be the epic fail for 5th.
Oh well, I will still play them my winged tyrant will just have to kill all the tanks

Goodnight all I have class in in about 5hrs so I am going to try to get some sleep

chivalrous
17-01-2008, 11:25
Rending should have minor effect on vehicles, period. Not rip through them with str 6 + 6 + D6. That is just stupid.

It isn't the rule that's at fault here.

With an assault cannon, by the time you've rolled your first 6, you've already glanced the armour of most vehicles out there and penetrated their side armour so the effects of the rending rule, really aren't that huge.

But when you look at a Genestealer, that initial S4 makes an incredible difference, they may just glance the side armour but they have to roll 3+ after the initial roll of a 6.

The is, as I said not the rule, but the prevalence of high strength rending weapons. Maybe what you want is for Assault cannons to have some rul whereby they only get rending below half range...

Psycoticspacemarine
17-01-2008, 11:43
It isn't the rule that's at fault here.

With an assault cannon, by the time you've rolled your first 6, you've already glanced the armour of most vehicles out there and penetrated their side armour so the effects of the rending rule, really aren't that huge.

But when you look at a Genestealer, that initial S4 makes an incredible difference, they may just glance the side armour but they have to roll 3+ after the initial roll of a 6.

The is, as I said not the rule, but the prevalence of high strength rending weapons. Maybe what you want is for Assault cannons to have some rul whereby they only get rending below half range...

Hear hear!
I agree.

While I do play SM i rarely ever have more than 2 Assault cannons in my list. I do agree that rending on the AC is a little overpowered in masse, it's not that bad if there are just 2 or 3 AC's in the list. Personally i couldnt take more than 2 or 3 even at 2k points playing BA. I think the max is 5

kaelis ra
17-01-2008, 12:10
If you want a real world example, look at SGT Alvin York in WW1. I'll spare You a history lesson but to put it in 40k terms he killed or captured the equivalent of three sqauds of 1st company veterans with only a lasgun and a heavy stubber and his STR and T of three and one wound. Now even in 40k that coudn't happen.

Sure it can, I have had a 20 man squad of Necrons loss CC to one Space Wolf scout and be over ran after lossing my ini roll.

Warsmith Strader
17-01-2008, 13:10
4th edition for chaos was an epic fail and probably 4th edition dark eldar will be an epic fail to so 5th edition might be an epic success for those armys, and obviously they is still gonna make dem loyalist marine boyz da best which sucks

Well considering that the CSM codex was designed specifically for 5th edition I can see why.

Anyway, I'm sure 5th edition will be a hell of alot better that the previous edition of the game.... I don't call it 4th its more like a 3.5 edition.

I can't wait for 5th.... just my wallet doesn't want it.... damn 50 dollar rule books!:mad::mad::mad:

Firaxin
17-01-2008, 17:05
If the rumors are true Tyranids will be the epic fail for 5th.

Yes.

According to fluff, genestealers can shred terminator armor with a single swipe, where also according to fluff regular space marines can shrug off assault cannon rounds. Thus I see the problem lying with assault cannons.

Its really lame and conceited to ruin an entire army just because one weapon in a different army is overused. Space Marines have other anti-tank options, lascannons, multi-meltas, etc. Nids don't, not really.

Unless you prefer nidzilla.

Mr Zephy
17-01-2008, 17:31
5th Ed is actually something i'm going to wait and play before I make any judgements because there seems to be so much rubbish and misunderstandings in with the rumour that has come so far.

max the dog
17-01-2008, 17:37
Dude what kind of failed army do you have that could spawn so much hate??? I don't think 4th edition is that bad but I do agree with some of your points. A slight tweaking of 4th into 5th should be all it takes.

useless leadership
I agree, leadership rarely makes a difference in the game. Certain units can force it to have an effect (Zoeanthrops withPsychic Scream and Necron Pharias come to mind) but not nearly enough can.

useless close combat resolution, see leadership above ^ :D
I agree, I like the combat resolution for Fantasy much better.

ap values
I agree, the AP system should be scrapped since it favors certain armies way too much over others.

rending and ITS ********
I disagree, the only problem I see with Rending is how common it's getting.

ultimate badasses that wipe out squads by themselves
I don't see a problem with it as long as those "badasses" are rare and very point expensive.

24" charges in the first turn of the game
Once again I don't see a problem with it if it's rare and point expensive.

my ork missile on a wagon blowing up your land raider with a glancing 6
That I agree with you on, a destroyed result should only happen with a glance on an already disabled or weaponless tank.

my genestealers ripping through your leman russes...with CLAWS. see rending.
For 16 points a model who can't shoot and has a 5+ save they should be able to do that.

monstrous creatures and THEIR ********, see tyranids, especially tyrant guards
Since I don't know what your, "*******" is all about I don't know what your issue with Monstrous Creatures is. Every army has lots of ways to deal with multi-wound high toughness models who only move 6 inches a round. If you can't maybe it's the way you built your army.

tank shock and its uselessness
I'll agree with that. IMHO Tank Shock should be replaced by Impact Hits and a Morale Test.

sniper rifles and its uselessness
[/QUOTE]
I sort of agree with this one because Snipers are the only case I believe Rending should be allowed on a ranged attack as long as it's kept to an expensive, non-moving, singe shot, and uncommon weapon.

Mr Zephy
17-01-2008, 17:48
Max, I agree with you in every way. Except perhaps on tank shock, since i'm not sure how many times anyone has been run over in combat by a tank.

TzeentchForPresident
17-01-2008, 18:16
I think alot of these rumoured changes are there to make a stand-alone Daemonic army playable.

Nerfed rending preventing Daemonettes to be the default choise for lesser daemons. CC-troops always attacks the rear of the vehicles in 5th edition. That is about the only chanse lesser daemons can do something vs most vehicles without giving them anti-tank weapons or rending.

S9+ weapons just about the only weapons capable of destroying AV 14 unless the vehicles is severly damaged as in having no weapons left etc.

And in a Daemon army Bolt of Change will be the most common ranged anti-tank weapon and it is rumoured to be S9, unlike the CSM Bolt of Change. Coincidence? I think not.

More static vehicles will hardly affect a Daemon army since it will have just 2 vehicle choises. And it looks like both will be walkers.

To sum up, I think most of these 5th edition rumoured changes are belivable, to me it looks like 5th edition was made with Codex Daemonica in mind.

GW either had to do these changes or having a an army that will end being mostly Tzeentch for the firepower and Daemonettes for the CC to be playable. Shebnar, post nr 675, Codex Daemonica (from playtest ruleset), mentioned that Nurgle players will think that a Nurgle daemon army will suck now, but 5th edition will change all that. Coincidence? I think not.


I am rather amuzed seeing the same non-Chaos players that throw flowers on the CSM 4.0 codex and singing its praise being so gloomy over the 5th edition of WH40K. This the fallout of removing most Daemons from CSM.

CSM needed daemons for the fluff, to be different from SM, daemons needed CSM for their guns. :cool:

And by the looks of it Codex Daemonica and 5th edition will be released close to each others. Coincidence? I think not.

Xenocidal Maniac
17-01-2008, 18:18
I think alot of these rumoured changes are there to make a stand-alone Daemonic army playable.

Uhhhh. Wow. Huh.

An entire edition designed around one codex?

I think not.

Bunnahabhain
17-01-2008, 18:26
From everything we've seen, 5th ed isn't anything more than a limited set of tweaks, and is no more a proper new edition than 4th was ( AKA edition 3.) The upcoming revision will be Edition 3.2

TzeentchForPresident
17-01-2008, 18:26
Uhhhh. Wow. Huh.

An entire edition designed around one codex?

I think not.

Gratz of being able to read my post, think it through and post about in less than 2 minutes.

Point is that much of these changes fits the rumoured Daemon codex like a glove. And without them you simply canīt beat a Mech-Eldar without going heavy on Tzeentch, and who will pass up on rending Daemonettes? :p Unless rending getting nerfed.

Edit: And I think I know why Nurgle daemons will be much more attractive in 5th edition. Very durable troops + the change that only troop choises not being vehicles will be scoring units.

Caboose123
17-01-2008, 19:37
I disagree with some of these points;

Leadership is fairly useless

Combat is fine, you see a nice mix of combat and shooting, unlike what you used to, i like a squad being able to punish an enemy for fleeing, it also makes Ld more relevent (see above)

AP values are alright, but it means for effective shooting you NEED to have enough AP, lots of shots is not good enough really. I blame the D6s... lets change to D20s :D :D

Rending is only too good 'gainst vehicles, otherwise its fine.

24" charge range is not really a problem for a balanced force, the few things that can do it are light assault troops, light being the important word

Rumour glancing hit more like apoc vehicles, 1 chart but a glancing has a heavy penalty?

Genestealers are only good in combat, and even then they can die, with only a 5+ save and T4 or 4+ save for LOTS* of points

Monstrous creatures, at least nid ones are WAY TOO OVERPOWERED* for their points, they kill like a tank, but just dont die, they are much too hard to kill. Maybe adding a monstrous creature chart could be cool, see how they like losing a weapon!

Tank shock isnt supposed to be game winning, all it does is force a morale check, which is fine really. No one wants the empty-rhino-rush-of-doom!!!

And finally...
Snipers should be better, maybe even with rending! lol

*= *add emphasis... didnt see that coming!

No problem with ultimate badasses who wipe out a unit maybe half their points in 1 turn in combat...

Xenocidal Maniac
17-01-2008, 20:26
Gratz of being able to read my post, think it through and post about in less than 2 minutes.

It's just such an unlikely proposition that it didn't warrant much consideration. I just don't think even GW is short-sighted enough to do something like that.

Lexington
17-01-2008, 20:39
I more or less agree with the topic; I've got it on pretty good authority that most of the rumors going around are, in fact, true (though not always properly worded), and that the new edition plays spectacularly well.

The future's lookin' good, everyone.

TzeentchForPresident
17-01-2008, 20:51
It's just such an unlikely proposition that it didn't warrant much consideration. I just don't think even GW is short-sighted enough to do something like that.

Short sighted or not, GW wants to sell miniatures. Of some reason they think that separating CSM and Daemons will do the trick. The problem with this thinking is that with 4th edition rules a Daemon army will have a big problem, unless it is made a certain way, ie getting Tzeentch heavy, since that is the only source of heavy firepower except heavy support vehicles.

Such limited options will not sell many miniatures. Only way to make it work is to change the basic rules = the 5th edition of WH40K.

If they withdraw some of the suggested changes in 5th edition they will be stuck with an army that will not sell. And many of the suggested changes do make sence if you take the Daemon codex in consideration.

Lexington
17-01-2008, 21:02
Such limited options will not sell many miniatures. Only way to make it work is to change the basic rules = the 5th edition of WH40K.
:rolleyes:

D'ya ever think, for just a second, that instead maybe the Daemon Codex was written with 5th Edition in mind?

Xenocidal Maniac
17-01-2008, 21:05
:rolleyes:

D'ya ever think, for just a second, that instead maybe the Daemon Codex was written with 5th Edition in mind?

Yeah, I was gonna suggest the same thing, but the maximum allowable number of :rolleyes: icons per post is four, and that just wasn't enough.

thechosenone
18-01-2008, 00:24
in my opinion i don't think the isses with rending are really against rending on infantry. Their strength is usually 4 which means you need impressive rolls to pen 13's and 14's.

As far as auto wound on the to hit or the to wound. Rend if designed to kill in hth so it does that well. Making it on the to wound roll just makes a hth ability watered down. Stay away from rending units. Or do your best to get your rending units close.

I think the major problem is rending on the assault cannon. That seems to be the problem. sweet range, many shots and high strength. That seems to be where the real argument is but even still that gun costs alot to buy and its on vehicles which are pretty vulnerable targets. Is rending that bad (Snappy response follows now...)

Psycoticspacemarine
18-01-2008, 01:13
I agree completely chosenone. Nids are worthless if rending gets nerfed. That will totally suck since i have spent roughly $500 on my nids. But I have recently gotten back into my BA. So my nids will shelved until their codex is released again.

AllisterCaine
18-01-2008, 01:28
No, rending and its effect on vehicles are just wrong...period. Infantry and 6s' for auto wound with no save, fine, it sort of makes sense. But vehicles? You know, i dont care how awesome a genestealer is, but its not going to rip through 300mm of armor no matter how many times it tries too. S 4 + 6 + D6 on a model with 4 attacks on the charge against a tank? thats like hitting a tank with a railgun, now how the hell does that make sense? please explain the reasoning. if i paid $100,000,000 for a pistol with a magazine that holds 10,000 huge ass bullets that fire like a minigun, its still not going to blow up an abrams. and really, you dont even need good rolls. i mean common, lets say 3 genestealers attack a leman russ, it has 12 rending attacks, out of which he only needs about 1 or 2 6s' to get a S10 hit, which will most likely at least damage it. now imagine 10 genestealers with 40 attacks.

yes if tank shock could break up units in CC by doing that, it would be useful and make sense at the same time; but, alas, it cannot. and the morale check it causes usually means "oh hey look i pass with ld 10" followed by "oh hey look i just blew up your tank"

i have played my share of armies, once a "badass" gets into cc with say, a guard army, its freaking over. GAME OVER MAN. GAME OVER. if i rush in 100 infantry into that cc, i will still get my ass kicked. i cant shoot over it, i cant move past it, i cant freaking see over it, and if that one guy can continue to kill my infantry, sooner or later, my tanks will get swarmed.

as far as luck, chance, or whatever goes, there is a point in which something is just impossible. like if i had a pistol and shot at a tank, are you saying i have a chance to hurt it? is the bullet going to slip through the view port, hit the internal gas tank, IGNITE it, and cause a huge ass explosion? or perhaps while im shooting at it, a mustang flies over and bombs the **** out of it? (saving private ryan) no, theres a fine line between impossibility and remote possibility. and an ork blowing up the heaviest armored vehcile used by the space freaking marines in one shot is just IMPOSSIBLE. its just like rending, if i fired a minigun into a tank, it probably has a 0% chance of destroying it, not 10% or something of totally annihilating it.

max the dog
18-01-2008, 01:50
Max, I agree with you in every way. Except perhaps on tank shock, since i'm not sure how many times anyone has been run over in combat by a tank.

Let's put it to the test, stand in front of one while it's moving and tell me after it passes how deadly was is;)

But seriously, read a bit of military history on tank vrs infantry warefare. I suggest books written by Ralph Zumbro.
http://www.geocities.com/futuretanks/
A tanks tracks are very effective at killing infantry and are used in that manner a lot more than you think.

theshadowduke
18-01-2008, 02:23
I have read the leaked playtest rules, pre-release, whatever it is, let me address this as you list them.


useless leadership
useless close combat resolution, see leadership above

Not changing.


AP values

Still there


ultimate badasses that wipe out squads by themselves
24" charges in the first turn of the game

Not gone (noticing a theme?)


instant death, aka "hey look, your 10,000 year old space marine chapter master got his face punched in...by an ork!"
tank shock and its uselessness

Still in, and still stupid.


Now for stuff that is changing.


rending and ITS ********

Still possible for my assault cannon to kill a LR, however it is getting a nerf, so I cant complain too much.


my ork missile on a wagon blowing up your land raider with a glancing 6

Just immobilized now, woohoo. :(


my genestealers ripping through your leman russes...with CLAWS. see rending.

Still possible depending on facing.


sniper rifles and its uselessness

Quite possibly the coolest thing in 5th Ed along with running, they now rend.

Psycoticspacemarine
18-01-2008, 02:24
No, rending and its effect on vehicles are just wrong...period. Infantry and 6s' for auto wound with no save, fine, it sort of makes sense. But vehicles? You know, i dont care how awesome a genestealer is, but its not going to rip through 300mm of armor no matter how many times it tries too. S 4 + 6 + D6 on a model with 4 attacks on the charge against a tank? thats like hitting a tank with a railgun, now how the hell does that make sense? please explain the reasoning. if i paid $100,000,000 for a pistol with a magazine that holds 10,000 huge ass bullets that fire like a minigun, its still not going to blow up an abrams. and really, you dont even need good rolls. i mean common, lets say 3 genestealers attack a leman russ, it has 12 rending attacks, out of which he only needs about 1 or 2 6s' to get a S10 hit, which will most likely at least damage it. now imagine 10 genestealers with 40 attacks.

yes if tank shock could break up units in CC by doing that, it would be useful and make sense at the same time; but, alas, it cannot. and the morale check it causes usually means "oh hey look i pass with ld 10" followed by "oh hey look i just blew up your tank"

i have played my share of armies, once a "badass" gets into cc with say, a guard army, its freaking over. GAME OVER MAN. GAME OVER. if i rush in 100 infantry into that cc, i will still get my ass kicked. i cant shoot over it, i cant move past it, i cant freaking see over it, and if that one guy can continue to kill my infantry, sooner or later, my tanks will get swarmed.

as far as luck, chance, or whatever goes, there is a point in which something is just impossible. like if i had a pistol and shot at a tank, are you saying i have a chance to hurt it? is the bullet going to slip through the view port, hit the internal gas tank, IGNITE it, and cause a huge ass explosion? or perhaps while im shooting at it, a mustang flies over and bombs the **** out of it? (saving private ryan) no, theres a fine line between impossibility and remote possibility. and an ork blowing up the heaviest armored vehcile used by the space freaking marines in one shot is just IMPOSSIBLE. its just like rending, if i fired a minigun into a tank, it probably has a 0% chance of destroying it, not 10% or something of totally annihilating it.

the please tell me an effective way the tyranids can kill a tank. because without rending the nids have a 0% chance of winning. enemy vehicles will chew them to pieces without fear of damage. And please dont give me the bs about a Venom Cannon. Even on the fex it is still better suited to killing heavy infantry (ie Terminators and the like). It only glances, its on a creature that will fail to hit 1/2 the time, and they arent that hard to avoid.

Plus genestealer are easy to kill and obsenely expensive. And they are lucky to kill a tank by turn 3 unless the have scuttlers or infiltrate with the broodlord.

FYI, the vulcan cannon on the A-10 does in fact kill tanks and it is built like the assault cannon or minigun

Captain Micha
18-01-2008, 02:28
actually the assault cannon is a much -lighter- weapon than the A10 gun.

Psycoticspacemarine
18-01-2008, 02:34
actually the assault cannon is a much -lighter- weapon than the A10 gun.

But it is the most comparable weapon in the game. I do agree the AC is overpowered with four rending shots. But that doesnt mean rending is overpowered. Why should an entire army suffer because of one weapon.

I think the assault cannon should still have 4 shots but get a max of 1 rending hit.

Captain Micha
18-01-2008, 02:40
the Ac does not need rending period to be effective.

also given the 5th edition cc happy friendly loving rules there will be alot less shooting going on. so the nids should over all end up -better- and vehicles will not be moving as much either. (given those horrible moving and firing rules coming up...)

they toned down rending because Cc is going to happen just that much -more- now, and be that much -more- devastating..

Psycoticspacemarine
18-01-2008, 02:46
the Ac does not need rending period to be effective.

also given the 5th edition cc happy friendly loving rules there will be alot less shooting going on. so the nids should over all end up -better- and vehicles will not be moving as much either. (given those horrible moving and firing rules coming up...)

they toned down rending because Cc is going to happen just that much -more- now, and be that much -more- devastating..

but if the rumors are true rending will have little to no effect on vehicles. How is that better for nids?

Captain Micha
18-01-2008, 02:49
because nids will be able to CC the snot out of vehicles with mcs.

also given how vehicles will be even more neutered than they are now honestly if they are fielding vehicles you should just laugh at him anyway since he won't be able to move anything and fire it.

Psycoticspacemarine
18-01-2008, 02:58
because nids will be able to CC the snot out of vehicles with mcs.

also given how vehicles will be even more neutered than they are now honestly if they are fielding vehicles you should just laugh at him anyway since he won't be able to move anything and fire it.

Oh yes the massively slow fex that might get to A tank by the end of the game or the single winged tyrant they can field, both of which will probably still take fire since both are large targets. The ONLY viable option is the winged tyrant which will need protecting being a synapse creature. Also, we dont know if 5th ed will be CC happy until it releases.

max the dog
18-01-2008, 04:09
because nids will be able to CC the snot out of vehicles with mcs.


How???? Yes I know that monstrous creatures will be able to move a bit faster now but so will everyone else. Avoiding a CC fex is still a good tactical move to see it a waste of points.
I also heard a rumor that reserves will be able to enter the table from any board edge. Has anyone heard if that is true? If so them maybe monstrous creatures will have a use in 5th edition.

AngryAngel
18-01-2008, 04:21
Oh yes the massively slow fex that might get to A tank by the end of the game or the single winged tyrant they can field, both of which will probably still take fire since both are large targets. The ONLY viable option is the winged tyrant which will need protecting being a synapse creature. Also, we dont know if 5th ed will be CC happy until it releases.


Ok considering with the new rules a fex can forced march that much closer to your side of the board. Yeah, I think he'll make it to an immobile if he wants to shoot really at all tank.

Which won't even matter when you'll have gaunt broods screening tons of genestealers who will even more so wreck up on units in CC. Honestly, with a couple shooty fexes soft killing all your immobile tanks. Then genestealers just having a lovely little stroll to the line to eat everyone, I hardly see how Nids are getting this imagined short end of the stick.

Oh and with the shooting of sooner to range dakka fexes spraying down marine squads, having even more chances to lose, sgts, special or heavy weapon guys with the offerd new wound allocation system. I'm really feeling your pain there.

I play Tau too, and these rules will, rape them a bit. Your tanks become near completely immobile if they want to give support fire. More vulnerable to incoming fire, and all the front line troops move even faster. With these offerd changes, I'd find it hard to find a glimmer of hope for the shooty player.

As is, even as a marine player, I hate the CC phase alot, probably why I play Tau as well. These changes seem to just force it down your throat and tel you to love it or else!! I'll still play the game, either way, and will try not to bely ache too much. However, I cease to see how nids are getting the short end of the stick when they love CC and its, with these rules, unavoidable.

TzeentchForPresident
18-01-2008, 05:51
:rolleyes:

D'ya ever think, for just a second, that instead maybe the Daemon Codex was written with 5th Edition in mind?

Of course, but the difference in playability between the Daemon Codex differs much more than in any of the rescent codex that should have 5th ed. "in mind" as well.

I canīt imagine any army except maybe a maxed out Possessed, Chaos Spawn CSM army that will come so close to being unplayable with the current rules, and gain so much with the suggested 5th ed changes, as a Khorne-Nurgle Daemon army.

It is a big difference between a codex having in mind 5th edition compared to be the reason for many if not most changes in 5th edition. This time it is the tail that wag the dog.

AllisterCaine
18-01-2008, 06:08
What are you talking about? Getting a MC into CC with a tank is easy and happens all the time. Either you walk in there with your T7, 2+save, cheap, 5wound, regenerating fex, or you have flying MCs. Both are choices often taken by nids player. The tank can move no longer than 6" to continue to try to damage the MC, and most of the time they will remain stationary just to have a chance to kill those underpriced, overpowered, 2D6 AP + S10 MCs. The way i see it, you have nothing to complain about. The guard player with almost no lascannons in his entire army, does.

AllisterCaine
18-01-2008, 06:27
Psychoticspacemarine...you have been full of retarded comments ever since you started posting here, please think your comments through.

Nids useless without rending? NO
MCs that cant kill tanks? NO
Comparisons between the A-10 gun and the assault cannon? NO
Nid tyrants with 2+save, 6+ invulnerable, T6, W4, with high movement that needs protection? NO
Genestealers easy to kill and extremely expensive? NO. For 18pts they have rending, 3 attacks, I and WS RIDICULOUS, able to charge 13"-18", or even 24" in the first turn if they have scuttlers. What else can you ask for? A 2+ save?
Are genestealers meant to kill tanks? NO

I mean seriously, are you that different of a nids player that Ive seen for the past decade or what? And why the hell are you so convinced that nids are useless without rending?

theshadowduke
18-01-2008, 06:45
with the retarded restrictions on vehicles in 5th ed, dont count on seeing any, pretty much ever.

Also, rending got the nerfbat because it was op to more than just shooting, in cc it freaking owned way too hard, and your "oh god, i cant kill vehicles anymore" bull crap is pretty funny considering that MC will be running toward any tanks stupid enough to show up on the table, mainly because if they want to shoot anything, they cant move.

Assaults are going to be the king of the day in 5th ed, kinda makes me want to scrap my guard army I'm build for vegas 2008, since between screening and the retarded rules that boost CC to a stupid degree, I cant ever win a damn game with IG.

gLOBS
18-01-2008, 09:35
What are you talking about? Getting a MC into CC with a tank is easy and happens all the time. Either you walk in there with your T7, 2+save, cheap, 5wound, regenerating fex, or you have flying MCs. Both are choices often taken by nids player. The tank can move no longer than 6" to continue to try to damage the MC, and most of the time they will remain stationary just to have a chance to kill those underpriced, overpowered, 2D6 AP + S10 MCs. The way i see it, you have nothing to complain about. The guard player with almost no lascannons in his entire army, does.

Wow just wow, the 200+ Carny that he quoted is underpriced and cheap.

hiveminion
18-01-2008, 13:50
Right I don't think 5th edition is going to be crap, in fact I'm looking forward to it. I also don't think Nids are going to be utterly 'nerfed'. I don't agree with you on several points, however.



useless leadership

I disagree, Leadership does play a part but it doesn't dominate the game. Why should leadership be more prevalent? Would you like it if units would be running away more than actually fighting?



useless close combat resolution, see leadership above ^ :D

Err, Fearless and its equivalents actually make close combat deadlye against such units when they're outnumbered, vastly improving the worth of combat resolution.



ap values

Never got the problem with this. It works fine, doesn't it?



rending and ITS ********

Well, Rending is a fine rule. It's just the sudden prevalence of Rending that *seems* to be a problem.



my ork missile on a wagon blowing up your land raider with a glancing 6

What's wrong with that? Odds are 1 to a trillion (note: hyperbole) of that happening anyway.



my genestealers ripping through your leman russes...with CLAWS. see rending.

Again, what's wrong with it? Not only is it according to fluff, it's also not that exagerrated. Destroying a Russ with claws doesn't mean shredding it like paper, but tearing a gap in a weak spot, or wrenching open a hatch and killing the crew. Games-wise, Rending is the Tyranid's version of Melta Bombs.



instant death, aka "hey look, your 10,000 year old space marine chapter master got his face punched in...by an ork!"

Well I don't see a 10,000 years protecting you against a snippy Ork Powerklaw.




tank shock and its uselessness

Except that it puts enemy units in perfect blast marker/template formation.




sniper rifles and its uselessness

I believe loads of people use these against high toughness monsters.



Psychoticspacemarine...you have been full of retarded comments ever since you started posting here, please think your comments through.

Why do you dismiss a good point as retarded? Carnifexes ARE too slow to catch a tank in close combat. Period.



Nids useless without rending? NO

Except for the fact that they'll be a close combat orientated army which suddenly loses any capability of ignoring armour saves without being a Monstrous Creature, which are, with the exception of the Flyrant, just not good CC units.




Genestealers easy to kill and extremely expensive? NO. For 18pts they have rending, 3 attacks, I and WS RIDICULOUS, able to charge 13"-18", or even 24" in the first turn if they have scuttlers. What else can you ask for? A 2+ save?

Yes they are easy to kill (especially at range). There is nothing wrong with that, because you can use cover to offset this somewhat, but they ARE easy to kill.



Are genestealers meant to kill tanks? NO?

Yes they are. They are meant to be powerful close combat fighters supposed to take on tough units the rest of the swarm can't take out. This includes vehicles. THAT is their purpose in the Tyranid list.

IF the Rending rumours are true, however, I personally don't think Stealers will become close to useless against tanks. You get an automatic Glancing hit, instead of having to roll for penetration (carrying the risk you may end up doing nothing at all). Besides, you don't have to fear the tank might explode, which usually kills off a fair few Stealers too.

Lexington
18-01-2008, 14:52
It is a big difference between a codex having in mind 5th edition compared to be the reason for many if not most changes in 5th edition. This time it is the tail that wag the dog.
Man, I wish I had this sort of mind for wacky conspiracies. I'd be a better mystery novelist. Confound you, Dan Brown! Give me your secrets! :p

CauCaSus
18-01-2008, 15:22
useless leadership
useless close combat resolution, see leadership above ^ :D
chaos codex and its ********
ap values

ultimate badasses that wipe out squads by themselves
24" charges in the first turn of the game
my ork missile on a wagon blowing up your land raider with a glancing 6
my genestealers ripping through your leman russes...with CLAWS. see rending.
monstrous creatures and THEIR ********, see tyranids, especially tyrant guards

tank shock and its uselessness
sniper rifles and its uselessness


Wait, I thought this is all that was wrong with 3rd ed?


instant death, aka "hey look, your 10,000 year old space marine chapter master got his face punched in...by an ork!"

You mean how to stop "ultimate badasses that wipe out squads by themselves"? ;)


From what I've heard, 5th ed. is going to be closer to WHFB which is only a good thing IMO, it might even get my back into 40k :rolleyes:

Gen.Steiner
18-01-2008, 15:46
5th Ed sounds bloody awful, and I for one am sticking with 4th. Toodle-pip, thread unsubscribed. :D

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-01-2008, 15:58
40k, for me, really needs greater movement rules, and by that, I mean restrictions. Take Fantasy, where the game is won or lost by the positioning of your units, which if taken to extremes, could be decided by your setup.....

And as for an Ork Rokkit taking out a Landraider, lets look at the statistics, shall we?

Okay, and Ork needs a 5+ to hit, which on a D6, is a 1 in 3 chance. So, to get the hit, you need 3 shots. So far so good.

Now, a hit has a 1 in 6 chance of actually glancing, so, statiscally, you need 6 hits, which means 18 shots. Racking up now isn't it? But hold on, it gets better!

Because, a glancing hit has...thats right, a 1 in 6 chance of destroying the vehicle, which means you need 6 glancing hits, again, statistically speaking, to knock out the tank, which means you need 36 hits.

I think. Gone a little fuzzy, but there you go.

Personally, I found 4th Ed a big improvement on 3rd, what with the restricted Transportation rules....

BladeWalker
18-01-2008, 16:01
I had planned to teach my older son to play 40k this year, I am wondering if I should wait until after 5th to avoid the confusion of learning 4th then relearning 5th when it comes out. I don't mind learning new game mechanics but I don't want to turn off my son from playing, I guess the best bet is to play 4th and decide to switch later if/when 5th is worth switching too. I'm hoping he likes Orks as a starter army, since that way I won't have to teach a new Codex for a while. :)

I'm just glad for these rumors, I was about to buy another hardback 4th book and now I know not to waste my money. I believe 5th Edition will be better, I just hope it clearly defines what has changed and what is different from 4th. That would make it easier for people like me who barely have a grasp of 4th Ed rules. :D

Voodoo Boyz
18-01-2008, 16:03
40k, for me, really needs greater movement rules, and by that, I mean restrictions. Take Fantasy, where the game is won or lost by the positioning of your units, which if taken to extremes, could be decided by your setup.....

And as for an Ork Rokkit taking out a Landraider, lets look at the statistics, shall we?

Okay, and Ork needs a 5+ to hit, which on a D6, is a 1 in 3 chance. So, to get the hit, you need 3 shots. So far so good.

Now, a hit has a 1 in 6 chance of actually glancing, so, statiscally, you need 6 hits, which means 18 shots. Racking up now isn't it? But hold on, it gets better!

Because, a glancing hit has...thats right, a 1 in 6 chance of destroying the vehicle, which means you need 6 glancing hits, again, statistically speaking, to knock out the tank, which means you need 36 hits.

I think. Gone a little fuzzy, but there you go.

Personally, I found 4th Ed a big improvement on 3rd, what with the restricted Transportation rules....

Orks long range anti-tank capabilities are hampered greatly.

On the other hand, Battlewagons become much harder to kill and it's much easier to get our Orks into combat thanks to the Run and Waagh rules, and we still get LOTS of Power Klaw attacks that will rightly tear up vehicles, including AV14.

I'm not worried. ;)

Damocles8
18-01-2008, 16:07
I hope that with 5th Edition, they get closer to some concepts from WHFB.....

boreas
18-01-2008, 16:18
Assaults are going to be the king of the day in 5th ed, kinda makes me want to scrap my guard army I'm build for vegas 2008, since between screening and the retarded rules that boost CC to a stupid degree, I cant ever win a damn game with IG.

What the hell?

What about:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, they just scatter. They now operate like template weapons in that any model touched by the blast is hit. No more "roll 4+ for partial" stuff.

Leman russ (and other ordnance) just got a major boost right there!

LOS restriction? When was the last time you actually had SOO much troopers that they interfered? I see a great IG platoon line with tanks parked behind, noow hitting the full 9-10 models under that 5" blast (not 4 full, 6 partial, down to 7 hits, as before. That's a 30-40% efficiency increment!).

You have a guard unit covering an objective? The Get Down rule is for you! Your guys get a +1 Cover Saver AND get pinned (so don't break!).

Resistance-wise, tanks remain the same while skimmer get nerfed. All in all, your tanks are now relatively better.

5Th edition might be troophammer. That means less 2 mini-troops, 2 HQ, 3 Elites, 3 Fasts, 3 Heavy min-max army that IG have more trouble dealing with. IG are good (very) at killing troops. So that very good...

I'm slowly moving from a WH/DH army to an IG army. And those new rules, with to possibility of a new codex, are shining a bright future on my new army!!!

Phil

Kaptin Gavrin
18-01-2008, 17:19
Eh... for me, it seems 5th edition is a 3rd/2nd edition hybrid (3+2=5?). I like that concept, frankly. I'll have to wait to see what happens, but I think it'll be fine in the end.

Bunnahabhain
18-01-2008, 18:14
What the hell?

What about:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, they just scatter. They now operate like template weapons in that any model touched by the blast is hit. No more "roll 4+ for partial" stuff.

Leman russ (and other ordnance) just got a major boost right there!
Assuming you're sitting still to fire the things.


LOS restriction? When was the last time you actually had SOO much troopers that they interfered? I see a great IG platoon line with tanks parked behind, noow hitting the full 9-10 models under that 5" blast (not 4 full, 6 partial, down to 7 hits, as before. That's a 30-40% efficiency increment!).

Well, I have troops that have to draw LOS to the enemey through another squad every time I play with terrain. And remember that they might not have worry about partials, still have to scatter, and D6, or highest of 2D6 means missing the enemey entirely quite easy.



You have a guard unit covering an objective? The Get Down rule is for you! Your guys get a +1 Cover Saver AND get pinned (so don't break!).
Until they get hit by the Assualt troops, who are now moving faster, and are safe behind their screening troops.



Resistance-wise, tanks remain the same while skimmer get nerfed. All in all, your tanks are now relatively better.

So that would be still crap then...



5Th edition might be troophammer. That means less 2 mini-troops, 2 HQ, 3 Elites, 3 Fasts, 3 Heavy min-max army that IG have more trouble dealing with. IG are good (very) at killing troops. So that very good...
Really? How many lasguns shots to kill a marine-18, an ork 7, an necron 36, a gaunt 5, a Guardsman 6. Remember, all of those units will either be out-shooting Guardsmen, or slaughter them in CC.

If your enemey does something silly, like Deep strike into rapid rfire range of 6 units, and fluff all their shots, then the basic Guardsmen are good at killing troops. If you can't achive concentraited fire from a decent number of units, then almost any enemy unit will be too tough or numerous to inflict signifiacnt damage on reliabely.

Damocles8
18-01-2008, 18:29
Bunn, shut it with the statistics, they don't mean crap to dice, I killed a TERMINATOR SQUAD with 25 lasguns....it doesn't matter how mathematical you think this game in, once the dice hit the table, odds are right out the door....

AngryAngel
18-01-2008, 18:40
Ok people keep saying how MC's are going to be too slow to catch a tank. So your taking into account the rending nerf, but then completely ignoring the shooting nerf for vehicles keeping them in one place to be usefull. As well ignoring the forced march the slow MC's will be able to have. Kinda makes them move a bit faster in that instance doesn't it ? Especially against an unmoving foe ,if you see many vehicles out there at all anyways.

theshadowduke
18-01-2008, 18:45
boreas you do realize that putting your tanks behind your infantry makes them useless right? Screening works both ways, and now guard have no way to stop running orks, because they have a screen of gretchen.

Bloodknight
18-01-2008, 18:45
Your guys get a +1 Cover Saver AND get pinned (so don't break!).

Notice that in the rumoured rules pinned from Get Down! does not mean the same as normal pinned. ie they actually can break.

AngryAngel
18-01-2008, 18:52
boreas you do realize that putting your tanks behind your infantry makes them useless right? Screening works both ways, and now guard have no way to stop running orks, because they have a screen of gretchen.

I thought I heard the large units, like MC's and tanks can actually choose targets still and not be effected by the screening approach ? If they can, then yeah tanks will be completely useless.

Stella Cadente
18-01-2008, 18:55
And what would that "minor effect" be? Also, if some ppl have it their way and rending doesn't affect vehicles at all, what are the nids going to do for anti-tank?
the same thing Tyranid players do who DON'T use rending, use something else
*SHOCK, HORROR, GASP*

Rending should NEVER of existed, an assault cannon is str6 for crying out loud, thats a pretty good str to have for 4 shots, and can effect most light to medium vehicles in some way, it can't affect heavy, but it shouldn't be able to
its AP4, thats a good AP to have considering the most common type of armour in the 41st millennium is a FLACK JACKET

hiveminion
18-01-2008, 19:01
Rending should NEVER of existed, an assault cannon is str6 for crying out loud, thats a pretty good str to have for 4 shots, and can effect most light to medium vehicles in some way, it can't affect heavy, but it shouldn't be able to
its AP4, thats a good AP to have considering the most common type of armour in the 41st millennium is a FLACK JACKET

The way you say it you'd think the Assault Cannon is the only weapon that has Rending.:rolleyes:

Stella Cadente
18-01-2008, 19:06
The way you say it you'd think the Assault Cannon is the only weapon that has Rending.:rolleyes:
well no but its the number 1 example that comes to mind

boreas
18-01-2008, 20:32
boreas you do realize that putting your tanks behind your infantry makes them useless right? Screening works both ways, and now guard have no way to stop running orks, because they have a screen of gretchen.

As Angry Angel said, Tank will be (as rumored!) able to see over troops! So your tanks pound the orks while you lasgun the gretchins... Drop-troop some plasma gunners vets all over the place to mop kans and stuff.. Sure, blast scatters. But no move means d6. No big deal 83% (33% no scatter 50% 3" or less scatter) of the time. And with more troops in the metagame comes more models. So really, scatter is no big deal...

Now, sure, assault troops can run at you, sure it takes 18 lasguns shots to kill a marine but 5 to kill a guard. But the marine costs 3 times as much as the guard... Sure, assault troop can get screened. But while screened, the cannot shoot at your troops... Also, don't forget rumors that CC resolution will be more WFB like. So 8 necrons (150 something points) assault 20 guards (with a vet sarg and powerfist-similar value). 6 guards die. Counter-attack, 3 necrons dies. Guards get outnumber 2-1 (so let speculate a +2) and are out-wounded by three. Test at --1.With vox-caster, no big deal...

Nercons are hard to kill? Sure! But IC will be easier to target (as far as rumors go). So maybe that Res-Orb will die quicker. And then battlecannons will have a field day with the warriors...

And you're definitely not taking into account that guards are, right now, one of the hardest army to play. EVEN IF the 5th ed. rules don't help the IG, I cannot see how it can be worst than now. Right now, necrons, marines, Tyranids, Eldars, WH in my experience, just eat guards for breakfast .

More than that, IG are supposed to be redone this year. The just, on top of that, be buffed!

Phil

Psycoticspacemarine
18-01-2008, 21:43
Right I don't think 5th edition is going to be crap, in fact I'm looking forward to it. I also don't think Nids are going to be utterly 'nerfed'. I don't agree with you on several points, however.



I disagree, Leadership does play a part but it doesn't dominate the game. Why should leadership be more prevalent? Would you like it if units would be running away more than actually fighting?



Err, Fearless and its equivalents actually make close combat deadlye against such units when they're outnumbered, vastly improving the worth of combat resolution.



Never got the problem with this. It works fine, doesn't it?



Well, Rending is a fine rule. It's just the sudden prevalence of Rending that *seems* to be a problem.



What's wrong with that? Odds are 1 to a trillion (note: hyperbole) of that happening anyway.



Again, what's wrong with it? Not only is it according to fluff, it's also not that exagerrated. Destroying a Russ with claws doesn't mean shredding it like paper, but tearing a gap in a weak spot, or wrenching open a hatch and killing the crew. Games-wise, Rending is the Tyranid's version of Melta Bombs.



Well I don't see a 10,000 years protecting you against a snippy Ork Powerklaw.




Except that it puts enemy units in perfect blast marker/template formation.




I believe loads of people use these against high toughness monsters.




Why do you dismiss a good point as retarded? Carnifexes ARE too slow to catch a tank in close combat. Period.



Except for the fact that they'll be a close combat orientated army which suddenly loses any capability of ignoring armour saves without being a Monstrous Creature, which are, with the exception of the Flyrant, just not good CC units.




Yes they are easy to kill (especially at range). There is nothing wrong with that, because you can use cover to offset this somewhat, but they ARE easy to kill.



Yes they are. They are meant to be powerful close combat fighters supposed to take on tough units the rest of the swarm can't take out. This includes vehicles. THAT is their purpose in the Tyranid list.

IF the Rending rumours are true, however, I personally don't think Stealers will become close to useless against tanks. You get an automatic Glancing hit, instead of having to roll for penetration (carrying the risk you may end up doing nothing at all). Besides, you don't have to fear the tank might explode, which usually kills off a fair few Stealers too.

I will concede my argument in the face of better evidence. Well stated.
I can be reasonable when presented with good evidence and quite stubborn when ridiculed as "retarded".



the same thing Tyranid players do who DON'T use rending, use something else
*SHOCK, HORROR, GASP*

What is the purpose of this statement (other than to be rude)?

FYI, I do use the VC and Warp Blast. My point was that neither are very effective. The winged tyrant is good at tank busting but it is one model and can only do so much.

electricblooz
18-01-2008, 22:14
-Sure, blast scatters. But no move means d6. No big deal 83% (33% no scatter 50% 3" or less scatter)

I think you're statistics are a little off there - first the 5" template means a scatter of 3" takes you completely off the target unless the scatter was in a favorable direction (50/50 shot). Second. probability isn't additive, so to accurately calculate the probable degree of scatter in 2 dimensions you'd have to include the likelihood of scatter, the likelyhood of a favorable scatter, and the likelyhood that the scatter distance would still keep you within the range of the unit. You could do it (based on some presumptions about how units are typically arranged on the field (for instance, taking into account 2" coherancy) but it would be a difficult exercise.


Sure, assault troop can get screened. But while screened, the cannot shoot at your troops...

If I'm worried about assault troops shooting my guys, something has already gone horribly wrong.


Also, don't forget rumors that CC resolution will be more WFB like. So 8 necrons (150 something points) assault 20 guards....

There's only one unit in the guard that can have that many models, conscripts. Currently, you have to take one infantry platoon (25 guys in 3 units) to get one unit of conscripts. Please! charge my conscripts - any play worth their salt will know that they should ignore the conscripts and kill them via shooting from the screeners anyway.


And then battlecannons will have a field day with the warriors... why does everyone think the battlecannon is some magical tool that can stop all armies? It scatters completely off the unit more often than it hits?

Xenocidal Maniac
18-01-2008, 22:18
I will concede my argument in the face of better evidence. Well stated.

This has never happened in the history of Warseer. Congratulations. You are the first.

AngryAngel
18-01-2008, 22:29
Now now I've seen it happen once or twice before. It, however is very rare. How do you feel about that Xenocidal maniac ? ( Hopeing for an angry respone )

Bloodknight
18-01-2008, 22:30
@boreas: the way I understood it outnumbering is of no use if you do not win combat anyway. And then it's only useful against fearless troops. Actual combat resolution is only counted by wounds - which means that the Guard will not win combat any time - and thanks to the deduction of 1 ld per suffered wound they will almost all the time.

Wraithbored
18-01-2008, 22:32
Well at least in 5th the CC Carnifexes might make a comeback with all the running being applied :)

Bloodknight
18-01-2008, 22:33
The way the rules in that alpha version are written, even vehicles (which count as a unit) can run, only bikers explicitly cannot. :wtf:

AllisterCaine
19-01-2008, 00:04
Right I don't think 5th edition is going to be crap, in fact I'm looking forward to it. I also don't think Nids are going to be utterly 'nerfed'. I don't agree with you on several points, however.



I disagree, Leadership does play a part but it doesn't dominate the game. Why should leadership be more prevalent? Would you like it if units would be running away more than actually fighting?

Err, Fearless and its equivalents actually make close combat deadlye against such units when they're outnumbered, vastly improving the worth of combat resolution.


Never got the problem with this. It works fine, doesn't it?


Well, Rending is a fine rule. It's just the sudden prevalence of Rending that *seems* to be a problem.


What's wrong with that? Odds are 1 to a trillion (note: hyperbole) of that happening anyway.



Again, what's wrong with it? Not only is it according to fluff, it's also not that exagerrated. Destroying a Russ with claws doesn't mean shredding it like paper, but tearing a gap in a weak spot, or wrenching open a hatch and killing the crew. Games-wise, Rending is the Tyranid's version of Melta Bombs.


Well I don't see a 10,000 years protecting you against a snippy Ork Powerklaw.

Except that it puts enemy units in perfect blast marker/template formation.

I believe loads of people use these against high toughness monsters.

No, there isnt, why? Because those monsters have a 2+ save most of the time.


Why do you dismiss a good point as retarded? Carnifexes ARE too slow to catch a tank in close combat. Period.

Except for the fact that they'll be a close combat orientated army which suddenly loses any capability of ignoring armour saves without being a Monstrous Creature, which are, with the exception of the Flyrant, just not good CC units.

They still will be good CC units, just not an multi-purpose unit, i mean give me another equivlent for the genestealer with the WS, I, S, T, 3 attacks. they lack the save, but with with 40+ attacks that will hit on a 3 and most likely wound on a 3, it really doesnt matter because the enemy wont be standing.

Yes they are easy to kill (especially at range). There is nothing wrong with that, because you can use cover to offset this somewhat, but they ARE easy to kill.


Yes they are. They are meant to be powerful close combat fighters supposed to take on tough units the rest of the swarm can't take out. This includes vehicles. THAT is their purpose in the Tyranid list.

IF the Rending rumours are true, however, I personally don't think Stealers will become close to useless against tanks. You get an automatic Glancing hit, instead of having to roll for penetration (carrying the risk you may end up doing nothing at all). Besides, you don't have to fear the tank might explode, which usually kills off a fair few Stealers too.

To me, leadership should be more like fantasy, where the position of your general and unit strength is actually important. When a SM commander shows up and EVERYONE has LD10, and that means they will almost NEVER run and regroup due to shooting casualties, and happens rarely in CC(although, granted, marines based on the fluff should not be running anyways).

No it doesnt, it simply means that those common fearless units are going to tie you up forever, which there wont even BE a combat resolution.

Compared to the old or fantasy system of AP, it sucks; however much it makes the game faster is not the point here.

its a problem by itself, trust me.

Statistics doesnt mean ANYTHING, if the ork had a 1:100 to destroy a landraider like that, it might happen ANYTIME. And the thing that bothers me is that ONE rocket, should NOT be able to knock out the heaviest vehicle in the SM arsenal.


Yes, you do have a point here, as the combat could mean a stealer finds weak points or hatches, but realistically? NO, it shouldnt hapen, tanks are meant to be armored from all areas and directions from these things, even the weakest armor (usually the top) is very well protected.

Uh no, that just means he'll move the unit away again during his turn.

no im sure 10,000 years of combat, training, and experience, and the best equipment in ther imperium would protect you.


No its not, how can you say so? if someone wanted to kill the thing, there is no other choice but to eventually stop after moving away for 2 turns. to hopefully kill it with the tank's full firepower, you HAVE to stop. Keep in mind that most tanks are in the front of you troops, you cant back track, and keep your whole army bogged down because you cant kill the damn thing.

No, if used correctly and carefully, genestealers units will not get shot, AT ALL. the possible 18" charge- or in the least 13"- helps them get to CC quickly. worst case scenerio is catching them in open terrain with LOS, which will NEVER HAPPEN against a good nid player.

no, thats the purpose of the carnifex. Powerful CC fighters? YES, most definetly. Multi-purpose super units that needs NO SUPPORT against any opposition whatsoever including battle tanks? NO. Every unit should have a weakness, or some unit that are good against them; the genestealers dont because they rip apart everything from MCs, units, tanks, characters, etc.

That helps, but to me, a stealer ripping through a tank is just still very awkward.

Stella Cadente
19-01-2008, 00:10
What is the purpose of this statement (other than to be rude)?
it was to point out the blindingly obvious, that Nids have things OTHER than rending to kill tanks

AllisterCaine
19-01-2008, 00:15
it was to point out the blindingly obvious, that Nids have things OTHER than rending to kill tanks

Thank you! i totally forgot to mention that in my last post. There you go marine, sorry about that comment, it might have been unnecessary, but that comment was just as stupid as hell.

Stella Cadente
19-01-2008, 00:19
Thank you! i totally forgot to mention that in my last post. There you go marine, sorry about that comment, it might have been unnecessary, but that comment was just as stupid as hell.
stupid yes
True HELL YES

theshadowduke
19-01-2008, 01:34
I thought I heard the large units, like MC's and tanks can actually choose targets still and not be effected by the screening approach ? If they can, then yeah tanks will be completely useless.

Nope, MC and vehicles can be picked out, but unless they are skimmers, they cant shoot past their own units. At least thats how I read it. I'll double check, and edit my post.


Vehicle weapons’ Line of sight
Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw
a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at
them. When firing a vehicle’s weapons, if the
weapon is free to swivel around on its mounting,
the player should point them against the target
and then trace the line of sight directly from the
weapon’s mounting and along its barrel, and see if
the shot will be blocked by terrain or models.

From my reading, friendly models block LOS.

Psycoticspacemarine
19-01-2008, 02:37
it was to point out the blindingly obvious, that Nids have things OTHER than rending to kill tanks


Thank you! i totally forgot to mention that in my last post. There you go marine, sorry about that comment, it might have been unnecessary, but that comment was just as stupid as hell.


stupid yes
True HELL YES

You could have been polite about it though. Instead you have to be rude about it. Calling someone retarded and stupid does nothing but make them mad. Present better evidence and people respond better.

Stella Cadente
19-01-2008, 03:19
You could have been polite about it though. Instead you have to be rude about it. Calling someone retarded and stupid does nothing but make them mad. Present better evidence and people respond better.
and when did I mention the word retarded?

Psycoticspacemarine
19-01-2008, 03:34
and when did I mention the word retarded?

You didnt, but you werent the only one i was talking to.

I did revise my statement about Nids getting nerfed. They will certainly be more interesting to play now though.

max the dog
19-01-2008, 03:45
boreas you do realize that putting your tanks behind your infantry makes them useless right? Screening works both ways, and now guard have no way to stop running orks, because they have a screen of gretchen.

No not completely, from the rumors I've heard screening is only vrs troops your owns size or smaller. So a tank would be able to shoot over the heads of infantry.

AllisterCaine
19-01-2008, 05:09
No not completely, from the rumors I've heard screening is only vrs troops your owns size or smaller. So a tank would be able to shoot over the heads of infantry.

Yeah im pretty sure that this is right, i mean if you on top of a tank, you should be able to see through friendly troops.

theshadowduke
19-01-2008, 05:57
Comon guys, lets not argue semantics, or who is more retarded, lets keep this on topic.

Dragonlv8
19-01-2008, 09:31
I love the rules for 4th all that could be fixed in my eyes is make shooting happen on both turns simmilar to close combat so that who ever has the 1st turn dosen't splater player 2 all over the place before he fires a single bullet/lasser/grot/Banana.

AllisterCaine
19-01-2008, 09:42
Comon guys, lets not argue semantics, or who is more retarded, lets keep this on topic.

What exactly IS the topic currently? I dont know and im the topic starter.

Remember people, the goal (at least what i had in mind) was to bash down those stupid 4th ed rules, so far, i think we did a good job of kicking rending's ass (to those of you who love, adores, and supports the 4th ed rending rules, just...whatever; because in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only rending...right?).

Next, let us tal-argue, about useless tank shocks and sniper rifles along with leadership and all that good stuff.

hiveminion
19-01-2008, 10:41
No it doesnt, it simply means that those common fearless units are going to tie you up forever, which there wont even BE a combat resolution.

Now you're assuming they always win the combat. They don't. Fearless units can still die. And if you outnumber them, they'll die even quicker. Fearless can be a major disadvantage in combat, you just have to make sure you get the most out of it. Throw in a support unit if the other one can't handli it by themselves.



its a problem by itself, trust me.

No, people are making a problem of it. There have never been complaints about Rending since the Assault Cannon got it, and after that several other units. Why not before? Because only Nids could Rend. And everyone was fine with that.

Now, because so many units from different codices have Rending, people are hating it more and more. They don't hate the rule, because they never hated it when only Tyranids had it. They hate it's prevalence.

Unfortunately it seems Rending-hate is the new 'fashion' of Warseer so loads of people jump on the bandwagon without knowing what it is they exactly hate about Rending. So they just hate anything with Rending. Even the poor Genestealer.



Statistics doesnt mean ANYTHING, if the ork had a 1:100 to destroy a landraider like that, it might happen ANYTIME. And the thing that bothers me is that ONE rocket, should NOT be able to knock out the heaviest vehicle in the SM arsenal.

Statistics are not a correct representation of what happens, I agree. But it does mean something. Knowing the Ork's chances of success enables you to consider the potential threat it is to the LR.

Besides, an Ork Rokkit, like a Krak Missile, is a high-strength weapon designed to knock out tanks, up to the heaviest out there even in ONE shot, if it's lucky to hit a fuel exhaust or other weak spot. The Land Raider is a tank. How can you then say it's not supposed to be knocking it out? Even when the odds are already so slim?



Yes, you do have a point here, as the combat could mean a stealer finds weak points or hatches, but realistically? NO, it shouldnt hapen, tanks are meant to be armored from all areas and directions from these things, even the weakest armor (usually the top) is very well protected.

Reality doesn't play a part in this game. There's daemons and gods in the 40k universe too, would you call that realistic? The background is the reality in 40k, and the background states Genestealers can tear through tank armour in close combat.



Uh no, that just means he'll move the unit away again during his turn.

If you're referring to the Tank Shock, you realise you shoot after you move, right?



no im sure 10,000 years of combat, training, and experience, and the best equipment in ther imperium would protect you.

Training and experience protect you from being HIT, which it does, thanks to your Weapon Skill and Initiative. However, once you're hit by the Klaw, no matter how high your rank is, you're practically dead. There already IS equipment that protects your, Invulnerable Saves, Adamantine Mantles...



No its not, how can you say so? if someone wanted to kill the thing, there is no other choice but to eventually stop after moving away for 2 turns. to hopefully kill it with the tank's full firepower, you HAVE to stop. Keep in mind that most tanks are in the front of you troops, you cant back track, and keep your whole army bogged down because you cant kill the damn thing.

Err, if you can't back away with your vehicle and a Carnifex is stomping towards you, that's just bad planning. Also, putting tanks in front of your troops isn't always very good. That's just asking for them to be charged by tank killing stuff.

Why do you have to shoot the thing with your tank? Move the vehicle away and shoot it with something else, or counter-charge with an assault unit.



No, if used correctly and carefully, genestealers units will not get shot, AT ALL. the possible 18" charge- or in the least 13"- helps them get to CC quickly. worst case scenerio is catching them in open terrain with LOS, which will NEVER HAPPEN against a good nid player.

Even a good Tyranid player is restricted by the table he's fighting on. Having a LOS blocking terrain piece so near your units it allows him to hide his Stealers 1st turn and charge the next turn, is a situation so rare and precious it's not a solid argument. Stealers just are a hit-or-miss unit. If they hit, they seem horribly overpowered, but they miss just as often. Especially against mobile fire support units such as Land Speeders, which are excellent against Stealers as you practically can't hide from them. Not to mention Ordnance units, they're not accurate enough to be a wonder-unit but give you a pretty good chance of landing a pie-plate on hiding Genestealers and destroying them utterly.



no, thats the purpose of the carnifex. Powerful CC fighters? YES, most definetly. Multi-purpose super units that needs NO SUPPORT against any opposition whatsoever including battle tanks? NO. Every unit should have a weakness, or some unit that are good against them; the genestealers dont because they rip apart everything from MCs, units, tanks, characters, etc.

Carnifexes are powerful in close combat but not effective. They are slow like most Monstrous Creatures, and vulnerable to counter-assaults. While they have high strength they have a poor Weapon Skill and low number of Attacks (unless upgraded to a pure close combat beast, which means it can't hurt anything untill the last turns of the games).

I would call 20 points for a single wound, T4 model with a 4+ save a 'weakness'. One round of shooting is all you need to decimate a Genestealer unit. If you can't get that one round of shooting, think about whether it's the Genestealer's fault, or your own. Do you have enough mobile firepower? Did you deploy correctly? Did you stay clear from that forest on your right flank he could use as a hiding place? Did you concentrate your firepower or did you just went for the Gaunts as they were closer?



That helps, but to me, a stealer ripping through a tank is just still very awkward.

That's ok. Just remember it's not just a claw they use, it's a claw coated in powerful metallic residues and whatnot.:cool:

lanrak
19-01-2008, 10:59
Hi there,
Well rather than waste time running through all the dumb special rules one at a time , then the totaly inaprorpiate game turn mechanic, the close combat mechanic, and the awarness/shooting mechanics ...

Why not just state the things that are THE BEST bits ...
erm ...I like , well its sort of ok ...ish ....well erm .. and then ...
Sorry I can not think of any thing in 40k 4th ed that would make it into a 'elegant and efficient fictional table top wargame hall of fame.'

By the way, you can tell how good a game is by the number of special rules , great games have NONE.(The devs cover everthing in the basic rules , because they know what they are doing.;))

Good games have a few,(up to half a dozen).(A few oversights/trade offs for game play reasons.:D)

40k has 23 'UNIVERSAL SPECIAL RULES'.:wtf:
Are these just normal 'basic rules' the devs forgot to put in 3rd ed ?
How about the codex specific special rules and special characters?

So the challenge is boys and girls, what is the most elegant and efficient part of 40k rules?
Telling you that a las/plas/bolt/needle pistol is a pistol
type weapon?
Or that everything moves 6'' apart from things that dont?

boreas
19-01-2008, 15:21
I think you're statistics are a little off there - first the 5" template means a scatter of 3" takes you completely off the target unless the scatter was in a favorable direction (50/50 shot). Second. probability isn't additive, so to accurately calculate the probable degree of scatter in 2 dimensions you'd have to include the likelihood of scatter, the likelyhood of a favorable scatter, and the likelyhood that the scatter distance would still keep you within the range of the unit. You could do it (based on some presumptions about how units are typically arranged on the field (for instance, taking into account 2" coherancy) but it would be a difficult exercise.

why does everyone think the battlecannon is some magical tool that can stop all armies? It scatters completely off the unit more often than it hits?

I know my stats aren't precise, but for the sake of simplicity, I made that rough estimate. A 3" scatter takes you off the original point, but almost never off the unit as the unit takes usually a 6"x6" area... A more accurate estimate would be to calculate the probability that a 5" template scatters off a 6"x6" isolated enemy unit. It has to scatter more than 5.5 inches so that no part of the template touches the unit anymore. That's a 6 on the dice. Now 2/3 scatter on the scatter dice times 1/6 on the regular dice means that the template will completely miss the unit 1/9th of the time (11%). A 3-5" scatter will be a less effective hit (2/3 * 1/2) about 33% of the time. A 1-2" scatter is very effective (2/3 x 1/3) about 22% of the time. No scatter is, obviously, very effective also (33% of the time). Now, that battlecannon is very effective 55% of the time, less effective (but still) 33% of the time... Do the math!

Now, the battlecannon IS some magical tool of enemy removal! :D With the new template rule, you're almost certain (88%) of hitting some models. The high strength low AP mean you can almost certainly remove some models. It ignore FNP and WBB most of the time. Also, being ordnance you get more chance of penetrating (best of 2d6).

But the most important point, and where this rejoins the matter of the thread, is that the battlecannon is a very good troop remover. Not as good for elites, HQ and vehicles. But the new metagame, in 5th, is that you need troops to get objectives!

So while your battlecannons remove all enemy troops (or try to!), your guards might get raped. But if you manage your attrition carefully, you could have removed all tac marines and be left with a few conscripts being butchered utterly by assault marines. Doesn't matter, because if you have 11 of 20 conscripts left by the end of turn 6, you still win, even if he has 12 assault marines butchering them.

I can see games where by turn 6, there will be little or no troops left. 2/3 of the objectives will be unclaimed. But the sheer number of guard troop units will make it easier to have 1-2 units lefts to claim one of those objectives. If the all-powerful assault army can assault by turn 2, he will have 10 assault phases to destroy 9-12 guard troops units (3-4 platoons with 3 sub-units each for as cheap as 500 pts). In the meantime, he has to protect his 6 troops units (maxing his slots at a high cost, for exemple 6 units of 10 necrons warriors for over 1000 pts).

That leaves you point for more heavy than your opponent (let say 3 battle cannons), more elite (plasmagun spam), more HQ (more plasma spam) to either: whittle down his troop slots to non-scoring or "feed" to his assault troops so that they can't reach your more numerous troops.

I'm not saying it will make guards all powerful of easy to play. I'm saying the rules as rumored will actually make guards, and especially troop-heavy guards a more competitive army than it is right now. On top of that, it's so fluffy it could be a teddy bear... :)

Phil

CauCaSus
20-01-2008, 01:11
This thread sucks, I'm un-subscribing it :p